No need to go out of your way, just curious if you had any data that you havent posted yet. In my rifle they are a bit more accurate and a bit flatter shooting than the Hornadys.

By the way, great info on this thread, glad you shared.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
Michael,
Did you ever try the speer 350g .458 bullet?
Dean

Dean, was I suppose to do those? Do I have some? I think I do. I can do a run with those at a few different velocities! I think that I must have said I was going to do this before, eh?
I will make a list.

Everyone, I forget things like this, don't hesitate to remind me!
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Can you add to that list the Speer AGS Tungsten solid they use to make? Anyone with on-game experience? I've only heard from Randy Garrett in his testing them, and he said they would sometimes seperate the core from the jacket on hard bone.

Slipped this one in there. Sorry Mike, didn't mean to take up so much of your thread.

Extreme and Agent J

No worries boys! Don't worry about taking up thread space and getting some points out that are important to both of you! Both are on the right track to make and are making some very very FINE BULLETS! Top of the class both Agent J bullets and GSC bullets! I could and would go to the field with either and be perfectly pleased with the performance!

Now the Speer Tungsten? Is that the same as the Grand Slam? Or what did I test in 416 a few weeks ago? Grand Slam's right? I did not think they would do well, but they did damn good, even with too small a meplat, but that's because they were short for weight and were stable in 1:14 twist! And I think I had velocity pretty high for 416 Remington when I tested. They did not go through the T'Rex tests as I only had 3 of them (I think) and used two to test! I suppose I could put the last one through the T"Rex Concrete Block test later?

Guys, I honestly don't know what I am going to get done this week or maybe even next week. I am a little behind getting ready for this shoot in Canada on the 10th, need to do some proper packing, gonna be a little chilly up there and I don't want to get caught with my pants down at -30 or so! Still messing with Canada about the 18 inch barrel on the 416 B&M too. So I am getting another gun ready too just in case. I will test and do what I can, but I am not so sure what I can get done before leaving next week????

Michael

Michael,

Feel free to kill some concrete blocks with your .510 Wells. I'll send you more bullets as needed.

J

I have enough of them to kill some blocks! I think they will be a "Smash" you might say!

Speaking of this, I have my Ruger #1 set up and ready to shoot in 50 Alaskan. I have not pushed my 50 AKs very much because just months after getting them done, I developed the 50 B&M AK (.500) version. I have not touched the 50 AKs (.510s) since. So I am only running 535 Woodleighs at 1700 and change. So I thought I would work them up a bit, maybe 1850 or 1900 or so and then shoot your bullet in it once I got the load up a bit. So I am in process of that too. But quickly running out of time.


Dean

I think I recall something about those 350 Speers. I am sorry! I will do them and don't mind at all. I just looked and have two boxes of them. What velocity are you running??? I can match your velocity and give you a real good idea of what you got! I will put them on the list to be done!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
J

I have enough of them to kill some blocks! I think they will be a "Smash" you might say!

Speaking of this, I have my Ruger #1 set up and ready to shoot in 50 Alaskan. I have not pushed my 50 AKs very much because just months after getting them done, I developed the 50 B&M AK (.500) version. I have not touched the 50 AKs (.510s) since. So I am only running 535 Woodleighs at 1700 and change. So I thought I would work them up a bit, maybe 1850 or 1900 or so and then shoot your bullet in it once I got the load up a bit. So I am in process of that too. But quickly running out of time.


Dean

I think I recall something about those 350 Speers. I am sorry! I will do them and don't mind at all. I just looked and have two boxes of them. What velocity are you running??? I can match your velocity and give you a real good idea of what you got! I will put them on the list to be done!

Michael

I'm running these at 2350 from a win mag. Only shot one deer so far, not much of a test, didnt look like it over expanded. No bullet recovery. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Dean

I think I recall something about those 350 Speers. I am sorry! I will do them and don't mind at all. I just looked and have two boxes of them. What velocity are you running??? I can match your velocity and give you a real good idea of what you got! I will put them on the list to be done!

Michael

I'm running these at 2350 from a win mag. Only shot one deer so far, not much of a test, didnt look like it over expanded. No bullet recovery. Thanks.

Dean

Got it! Making a note now! Might even load some up and check velocities. Have them on hand for testing. 2350 fps is easy in the 458 B&M, running some 350s at 2500 fps in it now. We will check 2350 or so, then depending on how that does go up or down with it.

I have it on the books now! So just a matter of if I can get to these before I leave next week.

Michael

Michael458

Got an updated spread sheet to post?

Thanks

Boomstick, 640 right now, but will finish up at 620 or so. They are just under .920" long, which is the same for a 400 grain lead cast...actually, a bit shorter. Just trying to make a viable option for stopping DG, not just broadside shots.

Michael, Sorry I missed it, what page was that? The AGS is the African Grand Slam tungsten solids...they only made them for a short while and I cannot say I have ever seen them work. Randy tested them and didn't find them to be 100%. He switched to the TBSH, and they haven't failed him yet at the speeds he's loading. Still, Just curious if any one has the same issue with them. They must have stopped making them for a reason. I am going a very different route, so it's mainly just to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks.

Extreme

I went back and I can't find which page the AGS were! But I have it!


Limited test, two bullets. No issues or problems. Being short and heavy they were able to stabilize proper. I suppose one of the biggest reasons that production has stopped is the cost!

I do see on Midway that the New Woodleigh Hydrostatic stable whatever whatever bullets are on the way to Midway and will be available soon. A 400 and 500 gr version in 458, and I think 400 in 416 and 500 in 470. Coming soon! Expensive a bit--X10 for $30 + or so.

FYI

Michael

IBT

Yeah I can load an update on the Solid spreadsheets. I have it broken down by caliber. Still have some tests to do asap! So some bullets have been listed, but not yet made it to test.

Michael458

Thanks for the up date

wow...

awesome data!!!

thanks for taking the time and effort.

510 caliber data is very interesting

Gerhard

Glad it might be of some use to you. I have some more 51 tests to do with the Hornady DGS that is coming up, but I may not get to it before leaving next week. But stay tuned and it will show up asap.

Michael

OK guys, I was able to sneak a little test work in this morning. First up was the 458 500 gr Hornady DGS and the 480 Hornady DGS out of one of the 458 Lotts.


As some of you know the 480 Hornady DGS has not made a good showing in the tests with my 458 B&M and 1:14 twist barrels at lower velocity 2100-2150 fps. So I was thinking maybe if I get the velocity up to 2250-2300 fps in the Lott the bullet might make a better showing. Well, yes by a couple of inches, but it is still a crap bullet, tumbling and veering off course and doing wild things! Still no Joy with the 480 Hornady DGS.


Michael

620 grains...
What velocities are you expecting?
2,000 458 Lott?
1300 from the 45-70?

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Boomstick, 640 right now, but will finish up at 620 or so. They are just under .920" long, which is the same for a 400 grain lead cast...actually, a bit shorter. Just trying to make a viable option for stopping DG, not just broadside shots.

Michael, Sorry I missed it, what page was that? The AGS is the African Grand Slam tungsten solids...they only made them for a short while and I cannot say I have ever seen them work. Randy tested them and didn't find them to be 100%. He switched to the TBSH, and they haven't failed him yet at the speeds he's loading. Still, Just curious if any one has the same issue with them. They must have stopped making them for a reason. I am going a very different route, so it's mainly just to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks.

Today I got a very very pleasant surprise! Just when you think you might be getting on with this stuff, a bullet will prove you stupid! Today was one of those days and I must admit I am rather pleased with the results! The 480 Hornady was and is such a disappointment to me that I could not see how the 500 gr bullet would be 2 cents worth different? Meplat still small for caliber at 55% as we measure by our stamp method. So I could see no hope for the bullet to do any better than the 480 had done either in the 458 B&M or the 458 Lott. But very much to my surprise I was wrong?

100% confident that I needed but the one box (not two boxes to stop a bullet) I set up the test for the 500 gr Hornady DGS from the 458 Lott. Velocity 2250 fps. Fired left, then right. Down to check, figured it would tumble so I had the top loaded with phone books to keep the bullets in the box. Pulled the box out and BEHOLD two exit holes in the back!!!!! WHAT? NO WAY! But yes--two dead straight exit holes out of the back of the box! I did not have a full box, I was a few inches short, but I had 60 full inches of medium and both bullets drove 100% dead straight through the entire mix and exited! OK, I set up for a third shot in the middle of the remaining mix. Well this one took a turn, I don't know why, but it went dead straight to 51 inches and veered to the right, exited Box #1 (I set up second box) into box number two and stopping NOSE FORWARD in the side of the #2 box 4-5 inches off course. But regardless the bullet had traveled 51 inches dead straight!


Of course I only recovered the one bullet that was stuck in the side of the box. The other two were lost. Now please, someone, why would the 500s perform like this and the 480s so lousy??? Same meplat size basically, same nose profile (of which I like that nose profile) same rifle, velocity close, how is this possible? And that little bit of SD ain't it! It's stability I know, but don't know how? It actually should be the other way around if it were stability or twist rate. I don't know? I just know it is so!

Now this brings me to Mikes test with the 500 gr in the 470. We know his twist rate is 1:18, probably not the best, but the Hornady did far better than the woodleigh round noses, I think in between the North Fork and the Woodleigh. What if he would have had a faster twist to stabilize the bullet? It might have done much better at 1:14 or 1:12 or 1:10????? I have some loaded for testing in my Capsticks with 1:10, but I suspect my barrels are for crap?

I will also be testing the 510 caliber Hornady DGS later.

465 HH, are you out there somewhere? 465 HH took this 500 gr Hornady DGS to elephant and buffalo last fall and had extremely good success and excellent penetration, the test work done today is in 100% agreement with that assessment. Chalk up another successful test that goes to the field and is also successful in the field!

When I return I will be conducting some further tests with this same 500 Hornady DGS in the 458 B&M, I suspect similar results that the 458 Lott gave, unless velocity was the key and topped the meplat size? We will see, we will see!

Michael

Michael458,
Thanks for the AGS test, glad it worked out! It doesnt' appear to be damaged much at all. I know Randy G did have some form of failure, but that is in his situations. Regardless, thanks again.

I'm at a loss with the 500DGS. Picture might look like it has a bigger meplat, but you said it's not, so no real answer. I might say that since the bullet is loaded out further you might have greater stability in the freebore, and that is a good thing, or you can say that if it's borderline with stability, the heavier had just enough momentum to overcome the material you are shooting it into. A different density might show different results. Taking a stab here, but the canalure is farther back? How about this

Sun shines on a dog's ass every once in a while!



Boomstick,
I'm thinking you could use load data from Barnes with it's 600 grain originals to start with in the Lott and WM. It should be close, exept go with the slower of the powder choices as this bullet will take up less space. They show W748 at 2053 and H4198 at 2024 from the 458WM, 24" tube. The lott got 2150 with H4895, and the 460WM is showing 2500 with H4831. With the 45-70, I'm going to try for 1500. I know it's possible at only 35K psi, so that is my minimum. If I can get 1600 I will be extatic! I even looked into some very odd ideas...that I'm smart enough not to even mention here, but interesting to say the least. I'll post a pic sometime when I get a final load, but again, I'm down waiting on the green to fund my personal endevors.

quote:

Now please, someone, why would the 500s perform like this and the 480s so lousy??? Same meplat size basically, same nose profile (of which I like that nose profile) same rifle, velocity close, how is this possible? And that little bit of SD ain't it! It's stability I know, but don't know how? It actually should be the other way around if it were stability or twist rate. I don't know? I just know it is so!

Reminds me of my boss's father's favorite story. "If you drop 100 bricks off the top of the building and get the following results; 99 hit the ground and one flys off into space you've learned not to stand under a falling brick as the probability of getting wacked is very high. One the other hand the really interesting one is the one that flew off into space. From that one, you learn at least the limits of probability and have the challenge of discovering a better explaination of what happens when you drop bricks off the top of a building."

The easiest call is "experimental variation". Maybe, but I'll tell you from bitter experience, you better know what varied and how sensitive your experiment is to that variation before you grab that label for what happened.

Well I am sure if you get close to 1600 with your 620's and match the heaviest of Garrett Hammerheads in velocity you could sell the ammo as the heavyweight champion/penetration champion for the 45-70

45-70 620 solid

Can you do some calculation for the 458 Socom too?
458 Socom 620 solid round at say 1300 could stop a truck. the base of the bullet at the bottom of the neck would be 2.15 OAL and be well within the 2.25" oal of the AR15 mags.
Tepo Jutsu might want to do some testing with those.

In .500" things would be quite interesting too.

Boom stick,
Thanks. The idea was actually based of purely design peramiters and had nothing to do with weight, well, it just didn't have an effect on design. The idea was to have the perfect 45-70 bullet design first. One caliber stick out, one caliber in the case (perfect 2.55" OAL), ideal meplat ratio (78%), ideal shape, maximum forward weight, maximum stability, minimum length...which leads to another interesting point. The bullet really shouldn't be any shorter. Sure it's possible, but less efficient. If I was to do a lighter bullet, I would change the alloy composition to decrease the density. The alloy I use is 18+ g/cc, and it's offered in 17.5, 16.5, 16, 15 and 13, with lead being right at 10.8-11.2 depending on alloy.

So what is the case length then of the SOCOM? Sounds like a great combination. Would love to see how that does against Interesting this is that when I was looking up smokeless loads I found that black powder loads (case full of swiss #2 or H777 FFFG) should muster near 1200fps!

I the 450 marlin is a higher pressure case.

Just going to the depth of the neck will maximize the performance for the SOCOM

IBT

Well, the 500 Hornady DGS made a monkey of me for sure, but that's what I get from limited tests with the 480s! That box of 480s has not performed in any rifle at any velocity. Damn things look exactly the same, meplat measures the same everything. I think I will be looking more into this bullet for sure. I want to see next how it does in the 458 B&M at 2150. And will be doing the test again with the 458 Lott to see if we can narrow this down a bit. The reason, that 1 bullet you mention! WHY? I want to know. The 480s I don't know why they are so pitiful. Maybe it's a manufacturing flaw I can't see? These were some of the first ones to hit the shelves? One can get pretty good and predict expanding on a regular basis with a little experience, but the solids, heh heh, they will make a monkey out of you if not careful!

Boomy

The Socom is a sissy! Wait until the 458 B&M SA gets here with it's full 2 inch case on the DPMS!
Michael

Michael,

You’re testing of the various bullet at multiple velocity levels is of importance to all of us as they relate well to practical DG hunting ranges. Please do take these comments as denigrating to your current and previous work; they are purely a suggestion for enhancing the results (as well as your lab time).

I’ve not hunted elephant, buffalo, or any other DG so have zero practical hunting experience for DG; I only possess second hand knowledge imparted from those who have this knowledge…as varied as it may be. I do however have a knack for delving through a lot of basically raw information and identifying the few pearls of knowledge contained therein. I have noticed two distinct groups of African DG hunters and their “personal DG hunting zone”; some believing that up front and personal is the only way to hunt DG (typically less than 25yds) while others impart the impression that 50yds is getting way to close.

Many of your tests show impact velocity and bullet performance at 22yds while others are at 48yds, both of which are very good DG benchmark testing distances, but only a single loading revealed performance at both distances.

Review of your updated charts reveal that the 510gr SST FN, fired from the 50 B&M, is the only bullet showing penetration performance at both 22yds and at 48yds; very good results for both showing 62” penetration. Not sure if the “at impact” chronograph screens malfunctioned or perhaps weren’t set due to testing at both ranges but impact velocities were not indicated.

In future bullet performance testing, should both time and materials permit, could you conduct penetration tests with the same bullet and muzzle velocity loading at both 22yds and 48yds impact ranges? And then, fire an additional couple of rounds at 48yds using the same bullet but loaded to a lower muzzle velocity to simulate a bullet impact velocity at double the distance 48yd distance (basically 96yds). And, also conduct the testing with two distinct twist rates when available, one faster-modern and one slower-traditional.

The above scenario would give good representation of expected bullet performance against a DG animal at varying initial impact and follow-up shot ranges (the follow-up shot being one of those end-to-end shots often referred to as a “Texas heart shot”) or reverse the scenario for a charging animal. It would also demonstrate what impact, if any, that twist rate will play in bullet terminal stability at these ranges and impact velocities.

Again, nothing but suggestions from the peanut gallery.

Jim

As always you bring up some excellent points, some I would like to address. And one of my favorite subjects beside bullets is DG, distance, rifles and such. I have some experience with this. And as I have stated many many times, and will do so many times in the future, I come from a shooting background, not a hunting background. I have taken those shooting experiences to my hunting career if you want to call it that. My background in shooting is varied and has not always been big bore rifles that has become my PASSION for the last 15 yrs or so! When I was younger I did a lot of other types of shooting and disciplines, these all carried over to my hunting.

Now I believe in close, if not close to DG then there is no point in it at all! But more than that the closer you are the more you CONTROL the situation. Recently I came up with my own rule of thumb for buffalo. Now let's assume reasonable ground, and cover being reasonable, not so thick a cover you can't see 5 yds in front of you. Most of the time cover is reasonable when you start the dance. I figure if I start the dance within 25 yds or less I am in 100% control, I will work the problem quickly and sort it out quickly. I will have that critter shot 3 times before he can get too damn far, and with 3 good ones I have plenty of time to reload and hammer some more if needed. When that distance stretches to 50 yards that percentage starts to go down fast, I figure no more than 75% control maybe as little as 50% control. The reason? Distance, takes a little more time to make sure you have a good second shot, and third shot, if it is at all possible to get a second or third? There is twice as much cover between you and 50 yds for the animal to get behind or move behind, or even get out of sight behind. So percentage starts going down fast past 25 yds. Past 50 yds to 75 or 100 you are down to it being pretty much a 1 shot deal and you damn well better make that one a 100% good or you will for sure have a followup. Chances are excellent at 75-100 that you will not be able to get a second, much less a 3rd shot in.

So make mine close, I shoot a damn sight better at 25 yds than I do at 75 or 100! I am faster too, so will all of you be. At 25 yds it's almost a given in reasonable cover that you can at least get a second shot in, and most of the time a 3rd if the first two are good to go! Oh man, there is nothing on the planet like working a buffalo and starting at 20-25 yds or even closer! That is my favorite hunting to do on the planet or shooting, whichever way you want to look at it! You see I like to shoot and that offers me some good shooting! Being close you can see reactions and what is going on and keep control of the situation. So put me down in that 25 yd and closer category. Anything past 50 yds is getting to be LONG RANGE for me!

I have been in a few close range battles, one that comes to mind is a hippo in 2005. This hippo is one of the reasons the B&M series rifles came about. It occurred fast and unexpected and ended up pretty close at 6 yds. I had a 24 inch 458 Lott in my hands. During the entire affair I was thinking to myself how big and cumbersome, long and unhandy this damn rifle was. Not fit at all for a fighting gun, and I was damn sure in a fight! Now with the 50 and 458 B&M being 6 plus inches shorter and 2 lbs lighter than that 458 Lott I figure they are damn good fighting guns for that sort of thing, especially combined with a good and proper bullet. The B&Ms make working buffalo a pleasure and much easier than handling a big long musket of a gun! Those musket days for me are long gone and over! The biggest musket I will be handling will be a 21 inch 500 MDM. Not too far off the mark of the B&Ms. And still far better than the 24 inch guns! In between I suppose.

In your review of the updated charts you are correct to note that quite a bit of test work has been done with the 510 gr .500 SSK Bullet. There are reasons for that, first there was no proper .500 bullets, so lot's of test work was done, second that was the bullet I was going to use in the 50 B&M so I needed to see what it did at all ranges and how it performed at different velocities. I can assure you that there were literally MANY tests that did not even get recorded as long as they were the same as previous tests. I have no doubt that I have put that bullet to the test a 100 times at least. Most of the time for tests in 2006 and 2007 with these bullets I did not record impact velocities, I was doing a lot just to see and not setting things up 100% to record and work the data. Since 2007 I have used this bullet now on 2 elephant and 5 cape buffalo and 13 Australian buffalo, and even a few plains game critters, all with great success, same as the test work. In fact I think now I have only recovered one of these bullets from all those critters and that was a rear shot on one of the elephants. That's not a bad track record for it. So it has been tested and played with extensively for those reasons.

In this thread Alf once asked what was the point in testing close, at 20-25 yds. My reply was stated in the above reasons, one does not shoot dangerous game at 100 yds, one does this sort of work up close. Thus, most of the test work for that sort of bullet at 22 yds. Yes, you are correct, some tests at 48 or 50 yds would be a good thing to know with some bullets. In fact I would think that even with a loss of velocity (big bores normally lose 100-125 fps at 50 yds) that stability is probably better at 50 yds and penetration about the same, as I have noticed on many of the things I have tested at 48.

I will try and do some more tests at 48 with some of the more common bullets we find and use in the field. With most samples sent to me there is not enough to test at both ranges, most of the time.

Good points, thanks.

Michael

I suppose I am going to shut down test work for a couple of weeks. I am just not going to have time to do anything this week I don't think. At least no OFFICIAL tests. Maybe a T'Rex test? But I have to get other things in order to leave next saturday. Will be gone a week, then a few days to catch up. So official tests here will cease until after I get back from the cold.

I hope in the meantime that Mike will continue some test work. I just about have him a little package which includes those 220 308 caliber barnes we looked at a couple of weeks ago.

RIP, where are you on time frame for getting set up to do any test work with the Sims?

Also I have not quite heard enough about the successful 500 gr Hornady DGS tests. IBT and Extreme have responded to that, but would like to hear some more ideas and opinions on that one? I for one was astounded, and rather pleased with the results. Even though they do raise some serious questions for me, in particular the difference between the 480 and the 500s???? These will be priority on my list when I return, I intend to get a little more in depth investigation into the 500 Hornady DGS in 458!

I also have planned the 470 and 510 DGS.

I also think we can have plenty to discuss on other subjects if test work is on hold here for a couple of weeks.


Ideas and Thoughts?

Michael

First of all have fun on your trip.

I have been playing with a little 450-400 3 1/4" Boswell I bought. Yesterday I fired a couple of 400 grain Woody softs in the test box just to check velocity. The newspaper was wet from a test a couple of days prior, but the bullet went though 16" of newspaper, 1 piece of 3/4" plywood and 2 pieces of hardy board and then stuck in the box. I was rather suprised. Today I plan on setting up a real test for that bullet.

Next test will be the Barnes TSX for my 375. If all go well with that bullet I will do a little more test with the 375 softs and then make certain I can get a soft/solid to shoot to the same point of impact.

After that I will downsize to the 7mm, as my wife will be shooting a 7 by 57 on our trip. That test may include Bergers "hunting" bullet. I will not hunt with it, just want to test it.

If you want to try some of the North Forks in the Capstick let me know.

Mike

Whew, have been working up a sweat packing bags and checking weights! Always too much!

Oh my, I bet that little 450-400 is a lot of fun! Of course I am ignorant so you will have to educate me about it!

I almost have a package of goods coming to you this week. By the way, can you or do you want to try some of the old trophy bonded bullets I have in 470 to play with??? I can easy put some in for you.

I don't have anything in 375 on the compound so I can't help with additional bullets there.

Nothing in 7mm either.

HEH!

I appreciate the offer on the North Forks in 470, but they would be wasted I think on those crap barrels I have! When I get back I have some barnes banded, trophy bonded, and some DGS loaded and ready to test. I expect results to be poor with everything because of the oversized barrels on those guns. I have shot in the past some woodleigh round nose and some of the old round nose barnes, did not even get any engraving on the bullets recovered. Of course very poor performance. So no, the North Forks would be wasted on those barrels! But thanks anyway!

I will have loads of fun just trying to stay warm I think! Of course we have great equipment and it is warming up a lot now, it appears it's only going to be around 20 degrees or so. So it's not going to be nearly as cold as it was only a couple of weeks ago at -20. So it should be a piece of cake! Shoot the first two I see and get the hell out of there! Of course I will hang around for my buddies two and probably get to shoot them too! I would say for sure I will at least get to shoot 3 of them cause I know he will miss one at least, maybe both! So then I get to shoot 4 of them! He's the same one I got to pick up the extra 7 Australian buffs!

When do you leave out this year? And what for and where? Did you already tell me this and I already forgot? Maybe, getting old you know! Oldtimers! I think you did!

Michael

Mine is 450-400 3 1/4" case built by Boswell in 1905. It has 26" barrels, but befor you cringe it is a handy little rifle without the additional length for the magazine like a bolt gun. It shoots a 400 grain bullet at approximately 2150 FPS (in reality a little less). Not overpowering but a nice little package for Africa.

I am going to the Save for Buffalo and Tuskless then over to Moz for Sable. We will hunt Kudu, eland, nyala, etc in both countries. We will be gone for 23 days stateside to stateside.

I need some friends like yours and they can let me shoot some extra animals.

Mike

The 450-400, that is what Hornady started loading this year? I forget, what is the exact caliber?

Oh I know about the barrels. I like the 1885s, a 24 inch 1885 is the same length as the 20 inch B&M bolt guns! So 26 is not so bad! Of course you know me, I would probably take a hacksaw to those and get them down to 18 or 20?

You know I have been taking a break for a couple of years from Africa. I am trying to work up something now for next year. I will probably do a couple of PAC bulls if I can, but I want 4 bull buffalo and all the cows that I can get on quota. I am putting more import on the buffalo. I want to give the 500 MDM another workout with a couple of elephant and a few of the buffalo. Then I will probably drop down to RSA with some friends I have there and shoot some plains game with the brass noncons, I really want to give them a workout and study animal reactions when hit with those things! I make take the entire crew over next year, my two boys, of course my wife as she goes on all trips, and I might even take the little one and get her a dose of it too! Let the boys get a buffalo each.

I bet I know what bullet you will be using fo rthe buffalo and tuskless, especially if you use the 470!!! HEH!

Well let me tell you that friend I keep telling you about comes with consequences that even out weigh getting to shoot most of his animals! So it is costly in the end anyway, one way or the other! I will tell you about it someday!

Michael

The Hornady round is a 3" long case, mine is the 3 1/4". Same performance but not interchangeable.

Next year may be my big Africa trip. I am trying to swing about 8 weeks in Zim between hunting and site seeing. May slip over to Bots for a photographic safari.

I fell in love with Africa. The 450-400 just adds to the nostalga. I just need to see if it regulates with the North Forks because nostalga is not everything.

I shot a couple of more rounds in a proper test today. The 400 grain .410 woody softs traveled through 12" of newspaper, 1 piece of hardy board, and stopped in the piece of 3/4" plywood. Impact velocity was 1995 FPS average at 33'. I was actually pretty pleased with the performance of the Woody softs.

And if you sawed the barrels off a 105 year old double the vintage Double crowd would string you up, I may even have to help them.

I have failed miserably!

There is a branch of experimentation called Design of Experiments. This branch deals with a lot of things in literally designing experiments. Last couple of years we trained a large number of engineers in that discipline at the site of my previous employment (I'm retired; sort of). One of the interesting aspects is being able to design an experiment to deal with multiple variables and to determine the sensitivity (and probablity)of the outcome to any of the variables being measured.

We had a really good instructor who is also a teacher at Old Dominion and ran the Langely wind tunnel before it was closed. Therefore he can walk the talk. Kind of a real neat guy with lots of interests. I called him. He had a grad student all lined up to work with us on our exploration. The grad student was a shooter who needed a paper for his graduate work and wanted to do something in shooting. Unfortunately once the gradstudent looked at our spread sheet he determined we were interested in "leathality" and didn't want to work in that area. Missed by that much!

How can anyone not realize the supirioityof a proper flat point solid aver a round nose solid is indeed perplexing

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
The Hornady round is a 3" long case, mine is the 3 1/4". Same performance but not interchangeable.

Next year may be my big Africa trip. I am trying to swing about 8 weeks in Zim between hunting and site seeing. May slip over to Bots for a photographic safari.

I fell in love with Africa. The 450-400 just adds to the nostalga. I just need to see if it regulates with the North Forks because nostalga is not everything.

I shot a couple of more rounds in a proper test today. The 400 grain .410 woody softs traveled through 12" of newspaper, 1 piece of hardy board, and stopped in the piece of 3/4" plywood. Impact velocity was 1995 FPS average at 33'. I was actually pretty pleased with the performance of the Woody softs.

And if you sawed the barrels off a 105 year old double the vintage Double crowd would string you up, I may even have to help them.

Mike

Whew, 8 weeks! Not me, can't stay focused that long! I would be very tired of it and ready to come home! On hunts much more than 10 days I am ready to make a move! Many times I have paid for 14 and even 21 days, but I have almost always left early. Next! This is why I am not much of a fisherman! Do my shooting and go to the next project! Once the shooting is over, time to go!

In 2007 I took the 50 B&M to Zim. Had two PAC bulls with Dudley Rodgers, then 5 cape buffalo with HHK. I can't remember how much time I was supposed to spend with Dudley, but I shot the elephants and left on the 5th day! I booked only 8 days to do the buffalo, I would not commit to more than that, but in 3.5 days those 5 were in the dirt and on day 5 I was on a plane back to RSA.

There are MANY of the Woodleigh Softs and expanding that are some of my favorites! In 416 the 400 softs are my favorite 400s. Also the 340 in 416 is a superb bullet, and especially in my 416 B&M. I used it a good bit in 416 Remington in 2005 on critters, excellent performance. Woodleigh is a good product in the soft expanding bullets for many uses.

Now here's the deal! If that 105 yr old double was mine bought and paid for, I reckon if I decided to chop the barrels to a good and proper say 20 inches, then I would for sure advert it over on the "Double Rifle" forum crowd just to see the reaction and have a laugh! HEH!!!! String me up? Well you better get a crowd together!


Oh no worries boys, just F%&*ing with ya! Even I would not do such a thing, and believe me if anyone would do it, it would be me! I might do it if I took a notion? But there need not be a worry, I am not a double sort of chap so the barrels are safe! HEH!

Yes I remember a couple of years ago when Hornady started loading this, or the shorter one. Craig and others took it out in a #1 and was touting that it was an excellent buffalo cartridge and bullet. I think the specs were 400s at 2150 or so? I was thinking to myself that if that was true, and it probably certainly is a good buffalo bullet at that velocity, that my little tiny 416 B&M with 400s at 2200-2300 would be pretty good too. Enjoy it and have some fun! Post some bullet reports too, don't hog all that knowledge to yourself!


IBT

So the grad student wants us to use "Non Lethal" bullets?? OK well, I guess we can shelf those right next to the Non Lethal Spears, and bows and arrows, and all non lethal firearms and bullets that man has ever devised. Non Lethal hunting bullets? Hmmmmm? That is a new one for me. Holy crap Bat Man! It's a wonder they have the capability of "Graduating" at all! Lord help us, the world is full of them!

JWP

Read what I said to IBT, the same goes for your comment! The last couple of sentences covers your comment as well!

Happy Easter Crew!
Have a good One!
Michael

While checking the velocity of the 450-400 I set-up a test and collected the bullets.

The first results were nice. Several people have said how well the Woodys work in the 450-400.

Hornady solids are on order.

Range was 33'.

This is going to be a fun little gun.

Mike

They look good. Looks like the hardy board might be working them pretty hard, but still holding together! You can see the higher you go with velocity the more workout they are getting too.

Excellent report. Thanks. I think there are several folks out there with this cartridge, of course in the #1's and will be interested in it.

Michael

Mike70560,
Great work! I like the detailed information and layout! One thing that I find very interesting is how quickly you can see changes in the performance of that bullet in less then 100fps. One question that I would like to ask is if you seen any noticable difference in penetration between #1 , and between #3 & #4? In that slight difference in velocity, can you see any gain?

Michael458,
I have an interesting solid for you to test...much different then what you are shooting, but it would be really interesting to see how it performs. May I post a pic (it's not an FN, and it's your thread)? I don't recall if you happen to have a .375.

Extremist,

The first two were stuck in the plywood at approximately 13". the next two stopped within about 10 pages of each other at 15".

I was looking at some of my earlier solid test and am now thinking about moving the plywood and hardy plank up to about 6" from the front of the box. At 12" the bullets have lost so much velocity going through the newspaper, plywood, and hardy board it is hard to note much difference in penetration past the plywood, if that makes sense.

Hell, Rip explained it much better

Originally posted by RIP:
A thought about boards (linear function resistance, LFR) mixed in with waterbuckets, wetpack, or SIM-TEST (exponential function resistance, EFR) as regards to response to velocity of the penetrating bullet and loss of resolving power of the test medium: LFR on the entrance end of the SimBA (simulated buffalo apparatus) contrbutes little to stopping the bullet, relative to its effectiveness in halting the bullet in the terminal/low velocity end of the SimBA. EFR provides much more resistance on the high velocity end, and less on the terminal end, thus allowing better resolution of difference in penetration, rather than having the LFR stop two close competitors at the same apparent distance, "hitting the wall."

Interesting. And very well put RIP! I am a thinker, an engineer of sorts, but I'm not good with words. I'll leave that to the Hemingways herein.

Extreme

Of course you may post pics! Even if it's a 375 small bore!

Speaking of which, no, I don't have any 375s on the compound. Two things that will always be missing from the compound is a 375 and 7mm Mag. Those don't reside here.

So maybe Mike can do the 375 bullet for you guys!


Mike

I think you are correct in making the move on the hardy board up front more, especially for the expanding bullets. Normally when I do that sort of test I use either 4-5 inches inside the medium. 6 Inches would be fine too.

Michael