quote:

Mike

Excellent work, I don't see any losers here at all. I would use whatever bullet (TSX or NF) that shoots best with the solid you will be matching it with. Either will do the job I am sure! What you see with the TSX is the same that I have seen too, remember the differences in the two 338s--338 Winchester Velocities and 338 Ultra Velocities--same story, less penetration at Ultra velocity with the TSXs. So that would seem to be the trend with those. It would seem that the new TSX bullets will handle lot's of stress and hold. I like them! But I also like the North Forks, Swifts, Woodleighs, NonCons, oh man, I just love good bullets regardless!

I will shoot the Barnes banded Solids with the TSX or will it be the NF Flat Point with the NF soft??? Too many good choices.

A lot has been made about newspaper being an inconsistent media. The funny thing is that in three parts of the country with three different set-ups, with sometimes three different medias we are getting the same basic results.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey Buff
What were you doing on a mountain top in Norway last week?

M

M - I was skiing.... You know - the wife wanted this.. Not hunting unfortunately.. Will go back in two months time for some seal hunting.. And again in the fall moosehunting..

Mike

Barnes Solid/North Fork Solid---As good as it gets either way! I was going to take a 370 North Fork 416 solid to back up my 330 Brass NonCon on the muskox, but they shoot too far apart at 50 yds for my comfort, and I really don't have time to try and get them together. It's windage, not elevation, and that's much more difficult to sort out. So I am using the 350 Barnes to back up the Noncon, they shoot together.

Oh how correct you are as for the Nay Sayers! You know what they say! They as far as I am concerned are full of BS. I do mean full too! When I hear that, I immediately put that in the "Ignorant" class. If they continue, then they go past "Ignorant" right on to too stupid to bother with class!

As for "End Results" no inconsistency really makes any differences at all. End Results are the same across the board. As for my mix here, the only inconsistency is how compacted the material is and the only difference it makes is the depth of penetration, which is rarely more than an inch or two variance from time to time--End Result--The same. If it's a solid it either goes straight consistently or if it's a round nose it veers off course and is not stable, consistently. The Nay Sayers are too damn lazy to do any test work, so it's easier for them to preach "inconsistent" than to do the work! So pay them little mind or attention.


Buffalo

Skiing? You break your damn legs doing that! Hey try some of those 330 416s I sent to you on those moose. I have knucklehead friend that is going to use his 416 B&M and the 330 on moose this fall. And of course I am using it in a couple of weeks on muskox, but somehow I don't think I will do much bullet digging.

Michael

will try them at 3100 f/s. They grouped fine at around 1 inch at 100 meters. Premium "Death star" I think, with those petals taking off from their mother at more than 3000 f/s... Moose might look as shot with a big shotgun eh??

buffalo

At 3100 fps the moose might explode with all that shrapnel moving from center. Might be like the old cartoons of the guy who gets shot full of holes, drinking water and water leaks out everywhere from many holes!

Primarily I have all the Noncons for the B&M cartridges and of course that is what I have been testing them in. Brian at SSK reminded me that I still have 458 Lotts and other cartridges that will run the bullets faster, and faster is better with all these sort of bullets, so I am going to load up sometime soon some of the 300s and 425s in the 458 Lott and see how they react at higher velocity too.

I don't know how much reaction to expect from a muskox and -20 degree weather. Running the same bullet at 2500 fps in the 416 B&M I suppose we will see.
Michael

Michael,

You're looking pale...but good...today.

Mike70560,

I see from your tests that the Trophy Bonded Bullets were from 10 year old factory ammo. Were those the Speer made bullets or the Federal made bullets? I don't know who made the bullets for Federal, but I suspect that they were made by Speer when Federal acquired the Trophy Bonded Bullet from Jack Carter. Maybe Jack Carter supplied the bullets for a short while after his sale to Federal.

I have been looking for some information (tests) involving the Speer made Trophy Bonded Bullets in regards to performance. So far, it's pretty sparse.

Muchas gracias,
Hoot

Hello Again,

Well, I've made it to page 53. Took me a while even though I skimmed over the pages and focused only on what got my attention, which was quite a bit.

This thread has raised several questions; hopefully I didn't miss the answers in the thread.

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of Michael458 in that I only shoot because I'm a hunter. I like guns, but once I find something that works I use it until I have a very good reason to switch. For about 30 years I've been hunting with the same 30-06, using whatever ammo happened to be available. Of course my hunting was limited to the US and Europe (Germany).

I'm going to Africa for the first time later this year to hunt Cape Buffalo and plains game, so it was time to think about getting a new rifle. Since this rifle is going to replace my 30-06, I decided on a 458 Lott. The reasoning being that I can use it in Africa, and load it down for use in the US and anywhere else I end up hunting. I'm not a long-range hunter, so trajectory won't be an issue for me. If I can't get close enough to take a confident shot with the Lott I need to find a way to get closer the next time.

One of my challenges is finding a suitable light bullet. Before I found this thread, I was considering the 300 grain Speer Hollow Point. I've read many reviews and it appears to be a very good bullet that holds together very well at higher velocities and expands quickly on deer sized game. Several reviewers claims it holds together better than Speer's 350 and 400 grain bullets. Does anybody here have experience with this bullet?

In the thread, you tested the 325 grain Hornady FTX and you seemed to be very happy with it. Do you think it will expand in deer sized game? What velocity would you recommend? Has anybody used this bullet on game?

I was a little concerned about the conclusions you drew regarding rate of twist and penetration. It's not something I ever would have thought about, but it makes sense to me that a better stabilized bullet hitting the target will penetrate deeper.

The rifle I'm having built has a 1:16 rate of twist, clearly slower than the standard. How much of a difference will this make? I plan on using 500 grain Barnes solids at somewhere around 2200-2300 fps. Would you expect the difference to be measured in inches or feet? Will it effect how straight the bullet penetrates?

Now for a statement that truly concerns me, "It's a CZ 458 Lott, and a bit difficult, I doubt very seriously it would feed Barnes Banded Solids reliable."

Has this problem been widely observed? Does it apply to other FN bullets as well? I can deal with the 1:16 not penetrating quite as much, or with picking a light bullet that is not the very best, but I will not tolerate a weapon that doesn’t function reliably every time. The reason I chose the CZ action was that I was under the impression is was a proven, reliable, action. I would greatly appreciate any information you can share regarding feeding problems. Could it be, as one forum I found suggested, that the problems only apply to the older actions that were converted .458 Winchester Magnum actions rather than “dedicated” Lott actions?

Marc

quote:

Originally posted by Austringer:
The rifle I'm having built...
… but I will not tolerate a weapon that doesn’t function reliably every time.

Marc,

A proper FN meplat may have feeding issues with some rifles but nothing that a competent gunsmith cannot eliminate.

As you’re having your rifle built, you might want to provide your builder with dummy ammunition with your FN dangerous game bullet of choice so that any issues your rifle might have with the bullet can be eliminated before the rifle leaves the shop.

On pages 18 and 19 there is a picture of a 45-70 line-up to be tested. The line-up included the Hornady 325 grain FXT. Does anybody know where the results of that test are? No matter how often I go through the following pages, I can't find the test results for that bullet.

I'm sure I'm missing the forest for the trees...

Marc

Hi Capoward,

You're absolutely right, I'm sure I have nothing to worry about. I took great care in selecting the builder, and have a great deal of confidence in him.

After speaking at lengh about the pros and cons of various actions he assured me that, by the time he was done with it, the CZ would be the best for my particular needs. He starts with the CZ action, but makes MANY changes to it, and I'm sure he addresses any flaws it may have.

Interesting you should mention the dummy rounds of my choice. The builder recommended I have some loads worked up by an individual he knows so that we can shoot my rifle during the final stock fitting (I forget what that stage of building is called, but I believe it's before blueing and such). Anyway, that way I will have the Barnes TSX and Banded Solid loads worked up to my specs and I will be given the "recipe." Not to mention he will be able make sure they feed properly.

I'd much rather start out with the correct "recipe" and focus on shooting my new rifle rather than waste valuable time working up my own loads.

The reason I "flipped my lid" is that I recently had a very bad experience with the only used gun I have ever purchased. I purchased the rifle from Cabelas Gun Library and it was supposed to be my "new" Africa rifle and 30-06 replacement. The experience was a disaster from beginning to end, and resulted in me returning the rifle after much aggravation and back-and-forth. Who can possibly tolerate a rifle that doesn't feed properly???

Marc

Hi Marc

Wow, read all 53 pages! I read through some the other day and was astounded at the ground we have covered in such a short time. Of course there is a bit of BS along the way, but there is a lot of info here in which to draw upon too.

I have been around the shooting sports of some sort nearly my entire life, many different aspects of shooting along the way. Hunting is of course one of those aspects of shooting as far as I am concerned. But you are very correct, hunters for the most part are different than straight shooters. Nothing wrong either way, and especially with someone like yourself that takes enough time to pick a proper firearm and bullet for the mission in which you desire to embark upon. I have a major issue with the "Common Hunter" that does not do so, nor even cares about it enough to try.

First time to Africa and to hunt the mighty buffalo! Hard to get any better than that! Buffalo are my favorite I have decided of late! Hard to impress buffalo! I like shooting elephants, lions, and I despise leopards, but I love to shoot buffalo!

458 Lott-- just don't get much better than that! 458 Lott can do anything from impala to elephant, everything in between. Bullets for every mission that can be thought of! Easy to load, easy to work with. One would be hard pressed to find a more all around cartridge than 458 Lott! A very good choice!

I will show you some excellent light bullets shortly, including the 325 Hornady.

You have a need to be concerned! Twist rate is very important, far more important than I realized only a short time ago. Now it is only going to be important for stabilizing the SOLIDS. For expanding it is not an issue. But for solids twist rate is important as we have learned. For 458 caliber 1:14 seems to be standard, that's what all mine are currently. 1:14 WILL stabilize the 500 gr Barnes and other like solids, North Forks and what have you, as long as they have a proper NOSE PROFILE and Meplat size, which is most important. At 1:16, I think with the Barnes and the North Fork type solids you will be fine, and keeping velocity to 2200 or so will only help. The Barnes and the North Fork both have proper meplats and Nose Profile and will likely stabilize themselves. Drop down to a bullet with less meplat--Hornady DGS and stabilization will be harder to come by. Round Nose--just forget them. Sorry RN boys, truth is truth! No, I really don't care how many 1000s' of elephants have been shot with them. IN another 100 yrs there wont' be any round nose solids left, some asshole will be talking about a new laser beam bullet and how much better it is than the OLD FLAT NOSE bullets we use, and I am going to tell them, "I always used those Flat nose bullets and killed all my buffalo and elephants with them just fine" HEH HEH! Times change! We best learn to use a better hammer if they make one!

Now I am probably going to hurt some feelings, piss someone off I guess, but I am going to say it anyway! It's my thread! Normally I do not and refuse to say much about one rifle or another, and I have very very little experience with a CZ. Only 3 I can recall in 458 Lott. Not one of them would feed nor function. What can I say? Of course none had been worked on either by a gunsmith that I know of. Now keep this in mind, I am a Winchester die hard fan. If it don't say Winchester on it I HAVE NO USE FOR IT AT ALL. I am figuring a way to stamp Winchester on that DPMS thing I have too! But it's Winchester or nothing for me! So it does not matter what it is, CZ, Remington, or anything even more expensive, I don't need it. Winchester or nothing. I am no gunsmith either, but I suppose those things can be worked on to where they will feed. As for me personally, I would not have one if you gave it to me for free! Now I don't mean to be ugly about that, but you must understand I am sort of an ass when it comes to some things! I am the same way over a 1911 45 ACP, with that, a man don't need much else I figure!

Now, I am going to dig up some good bullets for you to look at to use in that Lott of yours for deer and such!

Michael

Marc
Below you will see the 325 Hornady in the 45/70 at low velocity. This is going to be interesting, as you can see, less expansion than the next few bullets, but also not very deep penetration as some other at higher velocity. Held together perfectly.



Taking it a big step up to 2175 fps we see a big step up in penetration too! But not enough destruction of the bullet to cause it any issues.


Taking things up another notch to 2300 fps we see still good integrity of the bullet, and good penetration for a bullet of this type, in fact excellent.


And now we take it up to closer to 2500 fps and we see things start going back the other way. About the limits of integrity for this bullet.


My opinion is that this is an excellent bullet for shooting thin skinned smaller critters, like deer and such. Load to anything 1800-2400 fps in your 458 Lott! Deer won't be going very far I promise!

I will look around for some other 458 bullets and see what I have.

Michael

Another great light bullet for smaller missions with 458 Lott.



The 405 Remington is one of the most accurate bullets in 458 caliber, I have used it extensively to work up loads and do various jobs. BUT KEEP THE VELOCITY LOW--It explodes much over 1800 fps, and I prefer to keep the muzzle velocity to 1600-1700 fps to keep it's integrity.


You can step up business with a little more expensive Barnes X 300s and 350s. My B&Ms love the 350 Barnes, I would use it on the big bears in a skinny minute.



350 Swift and North Forks would also be excellent for that sort of work!



Michael

Austringer,

Unfortunately those actions can have issues. Not that it's every action, but I have seen factory rifles not function with it's own factory ammo! I have even seen one rifle that would not chamber it's own factory ammo! Besides that, simply doing a custom barrel eliminates about all of that, and yes, feeding ramp work is an absolute necessity for a Dangerous Game rifle.

Now on to bullets; the basis for this thread...and yes, I'm going to state my opinion, and justify it, but it's up to you what you choose. Fact is, I do not really like the Barnes banded solids. They are good bullets, and yes they do need to be spun fairly fast to stabalize properly, but there are better bullets out there (IMO). One thing that I must note is the radiused nose. Barnes has a sharp edge, then rounds the rest of the ogive. I don't like this for two reason. The deepest penetration has always been with truncated cone, or just slightly rounded. If you round it off as much as Barnes does, it can tend to veer or turn in lesser situations. I like to be as confident as possible in what I am shooting. The second issue is feeding. A nice rounded transition from Meplat to Ogive makes all the difference when it comes to feeding, especially in those rifles that are prone to it. Hence why I like NF or GSC bullets for this. Found that true in my levergun and my bolt rifle. The discussion will surely arrise of this rounded edge causing less cutting or less wound cavity, but those bullets are designed to expand slightly, aiding in both stability and wound cavity. At 2300fps, those bullets are not anywhere near over-expansion, nor could you not use the extra energy the bullet carries. It really is a win-win situation. Not to mention the reduction in barrel wear (I'm not a fan of brass or bronze bullets).

OK, OK. I know it's next, but what about being too soft, or the fact that they might penetrate slightly less. Well, they are not too soft, and we have seen them blow through Ele Femur and continue for 3 feet further (380gr .416) http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galLoweElephant.html Skull not even an issue, and penetration more then adiquate. I seen earlier a test that was done between the GSC bullet and a solid brass SRK. The SRK did slightly better in deapth, but you can see the difference in disctruction the GSC caused. Not to mention the slower the impact velocity, the less expansion...precisely what is wanted. I'll step off my soap box once again. Just do yourself a favor and try a few other bullets before you settle in.

Michael458,

Do you keep this thread open 24-7 on your computer man? :-)

I like the pictures, but I think it's not fair you always have North Fork on the menu and a pic handy, but no GSC FN's? They have been making these bullets since before 1997, and taught NF how to build their current FN's (take a look at their earlier work). Not to mention GS has been making FN's twice as long as Barnes! Shoot, I tested GSC 300's, 350's, 400's and 450's out of my 45-70 back in Feb 2002! I've even offered to send you some (to have a fair test and because I don't have nearly the facilities you do). So what gives man? (please take no offense, just kicking the tires and light-heartedly at that. That and this thread was created for this debate).

Anyways, I do appreciate your work, and have a great respect for it, so thank you. But like you, I have my preferences...keep the lead and the brass, and give me pure copper every time. I'm sure I will too be saying the same thing someday when their is lazer bullets and I get mocked for using copper...but not today.

EXTREME!

I like the Barnes Banded Solids! I hold them equal to any North Fork or GSC, and in all the tests this has been shown to be true when compared side by side, apples and apples. I don't hold them better than, but damn sure equal too. So I will beg to differ with you on that one. In all cases where twist rate was sufficient, never had one veer off course. I take nothing away from North Fork or GSC-but I don't see them being better than the Barnes Solids, nor the other way around. I have these three in the top class so far as the "manufactured" and not custom bullets. As for a nose profile, I would also have the JDJ profile in that top class right along side of the "BIG 3". Brass or copper makes no difference.

Michael

Michael,

We agree to disagree.

So what about feeding? I know you mentioned the Winchester 70 is your only choice, and I do agree with you, surely, but they are known for their flawless feeding (in current and previous productions). What about other rifles, or the chance of that lip hanging up? Also, don't you also like the slight expansion and greater perminent wound cavity it causes? Faster and greater knock-down/shock potential? And can the GS bullets can be driven faster! I found this absolutely without question in my lighter pressure guns (30-30 and 45-70), and between 50-150fps in the .308, .338 and .375's as well. Point is, if someone is using nominal pressure of 55K psi, as recomended max for DG round for easier extraction, then the velocity gain is even higher. I've colaborated with Jeff Quin at Gunblast on this issue before (regarding the 45-70. yes, I'm a lever freak) and we both found the same results. In one case I was using Starline brass, F210 primers and H322. I could not pass 1700 fps with the 300 Barnes while I easily got 2100 with the GS (SAAMI spec pressures). When I went to full pressure I got 2350 easy, then the 400's at 2200 with reloader 7. I tried the Belt mountain punch bullet and got within 50fps, but nothing works as well as the GS bullets. Now I do like what JDJ is doing, but he still cannot reduce pressure or increase speed like the GS bullets can. I think his bullet in much like an earlier Barnes except copper...yes, I have to admit, they are a good bullet. I'm just a perfectionist (and loyal).

quote:

Not to mention the reduction in barrel wear (I'm not a fan of brass or bronze bullets).

You have data to support this?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Not to mention the reduction in barrel wear (I'm not a fan of brass or bronze bullets).

You have data to support this?

Jay...

How about buting a $150,000 DR and shoot 20,000 rounds loaded with your sweet bullets through it in Africa over six months and write it off as "Research expense"

We have to be sure

Already guys shooting our bullets in $50,000 doubles. This is a topic which has been beat to death here and elsewhere. The double coming unglued scenario and the barrel wear scenario aren't related and neither applies here. Of course, if you'd like to fund your test, we'll provide the bullets.

Actually yes, we do.

Gerard has a rifle that has a documented history since it's conversion. It was a 220 Swift that shot Exclusivly GS Custom bullet for apx 1200 rounds before it was re-chambered in 22x64; a custom wildcat based of the Winchester necked to .224. This was done for the sole purpose of pushing the velocity envelope and testing barrel wear, fouling, bullet integrity and accuracy when pushed to that speed. It reaches 4700-4800fps every time it's fired, with no load under 4500fps ever being shot through it. It now has 4,400 rounds total, or 3,200 after conversion. The barrel is a standard factory Musgrave blued barrel, 12 twist. It shot 1 MOA to begin with, and still does, and even 1/2MOA with careful handloading.

I also have a custom AR in 5.56 that has shot over 1200 rounds through it that was just reciently tested by 10th Group (SpecOps) where it shot over 600 rounds in one range session, and in succession. It was bore scoped post hence and showes, still, almost no sign of wear what so ever. Even after the first 600 rounds I put through it I had a pro gunsmith scope it and asked me if I had even broken it in yet. It still shoots sub 1/4MOA all day long. If you care, the rifle sits by my side and I would be happy to offer it for anyone to view, but it aint leavin' here (it's special to me).

If you ask about big bores, then I have to refer to my experience with the 50BMG as that is all I have nearing this number of rounds. You can ask just about any serious long range shooter or FCSA member about barrel life with brass or bronze bullets...if you get to 1000 you are way ahead of the rest. I have only a POS Vulcan Arms V50SS, factory CM barrel. It now has over 700 rounds through it, and even near 100 Military AP rounds. It still holds 1/2 MOA as it did the day I bought it, and the throat is clean and smooth; just broken in.

How about this...GS Custom bullets offers the only garentee like this in the business. GS Custom bullet will not damage the barrels of a double rifle. If a double rifle is delaminated because of shooting the GS Custom Bullets under SAAMI specification and conditions, they will pay for the repair.

Here is a quote from the website:
"All FN bullets employ our HV technology on the shank. This means that the bullet is bore diameter in the shank area with the thin series of bands at barrel groove diameter. The only stress imposed on the rifling by these bullets is to cut the band and push it into the space behind it. The photos show clearly how this happens. This also gives superior gas sealing. All our bullets are moly-coated (propriatary bonding process) for further protection of the bore. When GS Custom FN bullets are loaded to normal speeds, recoil is reduced. When loaded to normal pressure levels, higher speeds than normal can be achieved. GS Custom FN bullets can in no way damage the barrels of a double rifle. The advantages are obvious." This is why it's patented, and why so many people have copied them.

Extreme

Very Well- I can live with "Agree to Disagree".

Feeding? Excellent question! Right up my alley too! BUY A F&*%ING GUN THAT WORKS TO BEGIN WITH! When we talk about DGR I can't see skimping around with trash! This gun has a job and a mission, and exactly like Marc said why have a gun that won't feed and function???? Rifles, handguns, firearms, bullets, everything about shooting is a compromise one way or the other. Not so in DGR! Not So with that Handgun on your hip for concealed carry! No compromise here! Feed and Function with a proper bullet! Make mine a Winchester M70 for this work, I get to choose my bullet that way for any mission required. I am sure I could find one that would not feed, but I have not yet with the ones I have used and or tested. I have Rugers, they don't feed nothing flat! I mean nothing! Of course I don't use them for that sort of mission either! They stay in the rack where they belong! Of course one could compromise the bullet for that POS to work, but not me!

For the slight expansion part that is purely a design of material/construction and velocity. I don't run enough velocity to begin to get that slight expansion. And, shooting the flat nose bullets of any sort hit hard enough and far more so than any round nose design to begin with. A little more might make some difference, but it might also be as much a function of that extra velocity as anything else?

Oh and loyal you are and that is a great attribute and I admire it! Any disagreement we have is of very little import in the overall view of things, more a minor ripple I would say!

As for the double rifle deal and those bullets, I am not qualified to even have an opinion. Thank goodness! I find there are some things I choose to remain ignorant about, on purpose! Thank you!

Michael

Like I said - do you have any DATA ...???

Guess we know who Gerard's new sales agent is ...

Macifej,

You are right. Barrel wear is from two major sorces, Gas erotion (magnified by gas blow-by) and frictional wear. Both are addressed by the GSC bullets. And it works.

Delamination is caused by barrel swelling and elongation. This is a much covered topic by M.L. McPherson. The bullets that obturate, such and conventional copper jacketed lead core bullets swell under pressure and exert outward pressure on the bore. This forces the barrel to swell, and the outward pressure creates friction that also aids in stretching the barrel and fouling the barrel. Mono bullet only mimic this if the engraving force is the same or greater. How about this: As measured by Quickload labratories, conventional bullets take apx 2,700 pounds of force to engrave (not psi, but actual force). I believe this was testing in a .308. Barnes bullets can take in excess of 3,900lbs, though I believe the banded solids are under 3,000lbs. And the LRB 408 took something like 8,000bls. GS bullets take less then 700 pounds. I challange you this, if you dare. Take your rifle barrel, if you have a spare or a bolt gun or single shot, and place it muzzle down on the floor. Now try to drive your choice of bullets down the bore...don't do this unless you are prepared to remove a stuck bullet! Now try it with a GS bullet. I've done it with a hardwood dowl rod in fact. How about taking a look http://www.gsgroup.co.za/hvbore.html

Note: This is all true if the bullet is actually the proper size. Some companies like LRBT and even Barnes will undersize their bullets to allow higher velocity and lighter engraving force, as well as less fouling, but the side effect is gas blow-by. That will wear your barrel out faster then anything else. You can also suffer from very hard to remove fouling due to the increase in surface temperatures, throat surface finish and higher bullet surface temperature. Also remember barrels are only RC 28-32. Brass and bronze can be just a little too hard and speed up wear.

quote:

Brass and bronze can be just a little too hard and speed up wear.

Ok - Man. Here's the deal. If you're gonna pontificate on a forum where actual experts hang out you should be prepared to support your theories with DATA ...?? Where's the beef? This stuff about how GSC make their bullets is all fine and good and most everyone understands GSC's design philosophy and few of us including myself will disagree with the bulk of that.

Your original inference, which you've repeated here is that Brass and Bronze vs copper speed up barrel wear. So - I ask you, for the benefit of the 35,000 plus members here to support your statement with some data. If you have it, post it, we all wanna see it.

Macifej, Yes, I am now part of the GS Custom team now. I have been working with them on and off for 8 years now, and just now started working for them. We are opening up the production facility here in Niles, MI, and I am the production manager and Technition. Regardless, I've been saying the same thing for years, you just now noticed.

Um...is that not Data? Would you like to come visit and I can show you? Or what are you looking for, like a percentage of wear reduction? No one has worn a barrel out yet shooting only GSC bullets. We do have a client, ATTIE JANECKE, that has rebarrel his rifle every year when he was shooting conventional bullets. He switched over to GSC bullets in 2005 and hasn't rebarrel yet...so ask him. I cannot personally afford to go that distance yet, but I will gather DATA over time. Can you?

Man, you don't have to be so defencive. If you disagree, so be it. What do you have to prove otherwise anyways? I do have plenty of personal experience in those rifle, and I have seen it myself. If you really want to get pushy you have to have something to push with. Saeeds bullets are copper, NF is copper, JDJ's are copper, so ask them.

I guess I can understand why you would dispute, but why insult me? Real expert? I guess you should know more about me before you state things. How about just stating your opinion. OK, I'll lay off.

If you want too, just go hang out at a FCSA shoot and ask them about bronze and brass bullets. I mean, what do you want? Is not practical experience enough, or the best form of data? I must say, it's simple math as well. If copper is softer, and brass or bronze is harder...not much data needs to be accumulated. I ony offer what I have already; what I have seen first hand. As I stated to begin with, if you care to look, is that this is my opinion. I said it's what I've seen, and that is what I offer. If you would like to disagree, more power too you. I like debate, and I like it when two people can debate without argument. Like Barnes Banded Solids. They are a great bullet, and they work very well, so no worries mate! Michael is right, they are a good bullet and he likes them. They make up near 40% of the premium bullet market. I too have shot them, and I too think they aren't a bad bullet, but they are still not as good as I would like them to be...for me at least. I like slight expansion, I like speed, I like longer barrel life, and I like copper! I also have a thing agains Barnes and I choose not to shoot them, but that is aside from my material choice. I choose not to shoot brass bullets.

-AP

P.S. I do believe that your SHAARK design does reduce these issues, just not as much as copper. That and GS bullets seal the bore better then any other bullet I have ever tested. It just simply works.

Michael,
Did you ever try the speer 350g .458 bullet?
Dean

Lemme know when you wear out a big bore barrel due to "frictional erosion". You might help yourself and your team by looking at the various frictional coefficients of materials. I suggest you hire a lab to do some proper studies as accumulating parables from hunter/clients doesn't lend to ones credibility in the world of science. Excellent news on moving production to the US. We're also starting new production in Austaralia, Canada, Europe, and possibly Africa.

Can you add to that list the Speer AGS Tungsten solid they use to make? Anyone with on-game experience? I've only heard from Randy Garrett in his testing them, and he said they would sometimes seperate the core from the jacket on hard bone.

coefficent of friction is great for measuring surface friction in conditions that do not involve deformation or cutting. Fact is copper yields much easier and therefore is easier on the rifling. If surface friction were the sole determining factor, then bearing bronze bullets would have the lowest engraving force. They do not. Like I said, ask someone who has been shooting the 750 and 800 grain Barnes solids through their rifle vs even the A-Max, let alone the GS 720. And, in the case of GS bullets, their surface posseses MUCH less frictional coefficient the any brass or other copper bullet. They use a propriatary system to treat the surface of the copper that makes it softer and perminently bonds the Moly. Try the test I offered you. I know I will be shortly.

And how is my own rifle testing not credible? I see it first hand, and I have ample experience with my rifles. I guess if I hire a lab that would do the same thing, I could pay them to shoot up my bullets while I loose out on the enjoyment of doing it myself. I rather see it myself and see the results. And more results will come in time. In the world of science, has there been any testing that proves otherwise?

Glad to see that you are expanding as well. I know we can use more of a footprint in the world market. Just be carefull when it comes in South Africa, there are much lesser bullets and bullet companies abounding there, and they will do whatever they can to make you look bad and take your business. Seriously man, congratulation!

quote:

they will do whatever they can to make you look bad and take your business

Ah yes ... the African way!!! Can't beat em - start a disinformation campaign or just have their factory confiscated.

How is that? So what is your plan to have their factory confiscated?


I hope that last message wasn't directed at me.

-AP

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
How is that? So what is your plan to have their factory confiscated?


I hope that last message wasn't directed at me.

-AP

Sounding a little paranoid Mr. Extreme-ist ..??



Relax man. I don't need to sabotage or disparage folks to be successful.

I know, I was refering to the misinformation part. No worries man, just had to ask.

Still, aside from all that, I was just wondering where the basis was? Hey, you brought it up, so I had to ask. My bad.


P.S. The Extreme part comes from my pushing the limits with so much of what I do in the firearms community. With the custom rifles I've design and built to the tungsten bullets or velocities I get with my handload (nothing spectacular or dangerous, but I will try every combination to find the peak of performance)...hence my work with the 45-70, the ELR 420 .375 bullet, the 50BMG with 1270 grain bullets (had to try it), my the 4lb. AR15, and the 20mm work I've done for NWS Crane. It's what I do.

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
Michael,
Did you ever try the speer 350g .458 bullet?
Dean

Dean, was I suppose to do those? Do I have some? I think I do. I can do a run with those at a few different velocities! I think that I must have said I was going to do this before, eh?
I will make a list.

Everyone, I forget things like this, don't hesitate to remind me!
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Can you add to that list the Speer AGS Tungsten solid they use to make? Anyone with on-game experience? I've only heard from Randy Garrett in his testing them, and he said they would sometimes seperate the core from the jacket on hard bone.

Slipped this one in there. Sorry Mike, didn't mean to take up so much of your thread.

Extremist...

What are your bullet diameter and weights for the tungsten bullets you are making?
The 45-70 crowd will be happy to see some short and heavy bullets to lob around.

Jay, I think I may have to take an internship at S&H as a 2 bore tester to write off an Africa market research

quote:

Jay, I think I may have to take an internship at S&H as a 2 bore tester to write off an Africa market research

We're always short a couple stunt dummies ...