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Boomy and RIP Aluminum samples are on the way sometime this week. Also some samples of 458 caliber VLD bullets that JD and David made up for the 458 Whisper, on the way! FYI No tests probably until Wednesday! Seems I must actually put in a couple of days worth of real work, boss is such an ass! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I have a theory... BTW, Ally bullets are entertaining and they foul so little it is amazing.  | |||
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Gerard quote: Yeah, I don't really understand that either I have a theory...
Gerard, I think you can put those things to rest, I also suspect it's a bit more than just a theory. I think you should elaborate? Never messed with Aluminum bullets? Only Boomy could search that out. Anyway some samples coming to play with. I suppose that is GSC VLD bullets you showing there, they look very nice to me. RIP will salivate over those I bet! He is building a 458 BMW! VLD Samples from JD on the way, soon as I get them will photo and post. Thanks Gerard Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Rasputin, am I detecting a suppressed intolerance here that is surfacing now? This business of .... "Yes. Yes. Yes." If you could only explain to us poor mortals how your theory works with increased air stability factors and that SF must go up when we shoot the same bullet in faster calibers then it would help a great deal. Don't leave us guessing and pull all your teeth. Also how penetration in FN Solids improve from SF values jumping from 2.0 to 2.5 to 3.0 to 3.5 and how we reach that super level when we oscillate around 3.5 and above. Give us the yaw angles at 100 yards and differential penetration depths and it obviously has to be on all your Solids that did not exit (not sure how many thousand that wound be  ), as all pass-throughs cannot be evaluated, not so? So how big is your body of evidence?Warrior | |||
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 This should prove quite interesting!!! You might like them so much you will get some 150 grainers made in .500" for the supershort in your AR or your 500 B&M. Gerard... What calibers have you made aluminium bullets in? What can you tell us about velocity and flight path? Boom
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Yes, lay it on us. You're the one who sells bullets, so your theories would carry more weight than mine.  (And I still think I'm Rasputin, Warrior.  )_________________________ Glenn | |||
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Alf, Here is your answer in red within your post.
We are right here. Waiting to see which of these discounted theories of yours you will repeat again. It is 22:30 going home for supper now. | |||
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Gerard Is it my old eyes or am I seeing a hollow base on your Aluminum pointers ..?? Anything you can share without sharing too much? Hope all's well in your hemishpere. | |||
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In evaluating the 6.8 SPC for the military, Tim W, Harrison Beene (owner of AR15 Performance) Chris Lucci (Aug 9-11, 2008), commented the following on the twist rate in their report "6.8 Performance Testing Report" .... "The first and most important requirement of twist is it must spin the bullet fast enough to properly stabilize its flight. If not, then the bullet would be unstable and literally fly end over end or wobble terribly. Once that requirement is met spinning the bullet much faster can and will have negative effects. Excessive spin can cause the bullet's nose to stay at the same angle at which it exited the barrel rathetr than following the trajectory path of the bullet. As the bullet comes down the back side of its trajectory it will tend to stay stay "nose up" the faster it is spinning rather than the nose pointing down at the angle of the bullet's trajectory. This can cause the bullet to become less stable and more erratic in its flight. Excessive spinning of a bullet not balanced to its centre of mass increases wobble which can effect accuracy. Bullet construction has been greatly improved, yet very few bullets are perfectly centre balanced." Later on they conclude .... "It has been conclude, that while the rate of twist needs to be sufficient to spin a bullet fast enough to stabilize it, anything beyond that has negative consequences" Any amount of "nose up" is less than ideal. Warrior | |||
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Alf is going nuts because his theory does not jive with reality. In other words, he does not know it all, and that is very hard for him to deal with. Michael, Just for doing the long and pointy .458 VLD bullets up to 700 grains in the B&M, I would settle for the slowest twist that would stabilize it, maybe 1:10". Need to know the length of the bullet. It would be nice to know what the longest COL you can do with it and still load it directly into the chamber, with your standard B&M throat. "B&M Whisper," sounds silent but deadly, thus too much like a fart. Better call it the ".458 B&M Whaler" because it will look like it is shooting harpoons. It will also wail as well as whisper with a suppressor. | |||
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Alf -- WHY DID YOU ERASE YOUR POSTS ??!?! Your whole concept of participating is to get the heat off you for those actions .. yet you have HUNDREDS (or have you deleted them already) of posts that are ONLY "." Since you are MORE than proven to have no compunction for deleting past posts when proven wrong, why should ANYONE bother? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I noticed that too. Maybe reverse point hollot point or skewer. My other thought was to keep the weight nose forward for stability (Maybe due to insuficient twist of barrel    )
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If any of "You'ns" has a platform for tinkering with 458 LRV bullets, I could forward some. (.458" x 3.25" long). Michael - I still have those 45-70 Heaters to get over to you. | |||
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Andrew cempa Can I reliably kill an elephant with a welll placed frontal brain shot with my 416 Rigby 400 DGX at 2400 fs MV or will jumbo shake it off and stomp me into a smudge on the plains? Just askin'
400 DGX? Do you mean DGS, Solids? The answer is yes if it's solids and you hit the right place. If you mean DGX soft points, no you may not reliably do so. GERARD THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! You have answered Alf on a point by point basis, You have taken a tremendous amount of effort to do so. I appreciate those efforts!!!!! Please enjoy your dinner! I am soon to be headed for mine! Did I tell you about the cornbread and chili this past weekend??? My god man, it was fantastic! Ate an entire pan of cornbread by my damn self, full of jalapenos, chili was out of this world! I honest to god thought I would burst open! As far as I am concerned I judge Alf just being a troubled individual. The issue of twist is settled, a moot point from here forward, I have more than enough proof myself and further discussion is a waste of energy. RIP The 458 VLDs I am not sure how much they weigh, I don't think they will go 700 grs, but Brian is sending some samples. David did up a bunch of different things along these lines for JD some time ago. Not sure what they settled on if anything. I imagine some of them will be duplicates of the 416 Barrett bullet shown here;  When I get the bullets I will load a few check what we have. I actually loaded the 416 versions in the 416 B&M and shot them in dead buffalo. Of course they were way long and don't fit the magazine. I suppose the 458 B&M would be the same. "Whaler" sounds pretty good to me! Still, BMW! LOL I think you need to think suppressor on that one. Also as you know, Brian told me 1:10 twist is the cats ass for this mission! Jay 45/70 heaters, waiting. Thinking of those this morning. No rush, I still have plenty to do! But don't mind at all hitting them a lick!. Look here, should be safe in the 1885 eh? 1885 strong enough I think! Now I am like Gerard, I must go to dinner now! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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NO! NO! NO! Ruger #1 or Encore only!! 250 grain at 2600+ FPS. | |||
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Alf I like and respect your wealth of experience, your vast knowledge of cartridges and point of view. Please continue to make this place so great. It is your posts in part that have made this thread so great. If we all thought alike this place would get boring and nothing would be challenged. Over time a lot of the myths have been challenged and busted like 30 thou shoulders as a standard for headspacing for an example. This is just the great minds here coming together to challende the traditions and myths of twist and bullet profile. Please reconsider this notion of leaving. We all are prone to personal attacks and I have been attacked and made better because of it. If we were at a bar I am sure we all would enjoy your company and buy you a beer.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Now, don't do that ALF! I'm troubled myself and I have the medications to prove it! Anybody can look at my posts and tell that I'm troubled. But who isn't troubled in this world? Damn, with all we've been through with these wars, terrible economies, the threat of terrorism, etc. we'd have to be troubled to have any kind of sanity! So don't go anywhere, ALF. You're a valued member of this community. And a friend. We've learned a lot from you and would feel your loss. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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Jay Can I get a hand full of bullets only? The only #1 I have left is one of those 50 yr guns, I turned all the rest into 50 Alaskans and such! I never even shot that one, and it's not because I am concerned about collecting, just never had a scope on it, never fired it, don't even know if it goes bang or not. Bullets I can put in the 458 B&M at the same velocity zero issue? You guys don't think the 1885 would handle that? Modern Browning? Hell, I think it would! Jay, RIP is building a 458 for the long VLD or LRVs, If you send the 45/70s, can you send a sample so we can stuff one in a case? 3.25 inches, how much does it weigh? Brass? Copper? Curious! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I would think that a Browning High Wall of modern manufactor woud handle the same loads that a Ruger #1 would handle.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Alf ;;;;;;;;; Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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JW, I think so too! I think it would handle that. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Who here is not crazy if not at least gun crazy? Thanks to Alf's chalenges lots more tests are being conducted by the great and generous Michael. I will be like a kid waiting for Christmas to come to see what these aluminium bullets will do @ 4000 fps out of his faster twist 458 B&M and the 45-70. These aluminium bullets might need a 24" barrel to maximize velocity. What powder to use? Lil Gun? Any suggestions on powder and charge? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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What concerns me about the 1885 is the smallish material sections in the sides and the relatively open rear end of the receiver. I have no way to verify action strength with no data regarding the material etc. I'll send em' and you can shoot em at your own risk preferably from behind a barrier. I'll send you some LRV's too. Brass and 777 grains. | |||
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I HEREBY DECLARE I SHOOT THE Macifej LOADS AT MY OWN RISK AND HOLD NO ONE LIABLE for my demise, no matter wind, snow, hail, nor hurricane I take this upon my own and I am 100% responsible for my own actions! I figure about 10000 witnesses for you J! There you go, we should be covered. A 1885 is pretty strong. I have hid behind trees and shot things before, nothing new there. Hey, you guys know about the Ruger SP 101 right? Well when the thing first hit the market it was 38 spl. The "B" in the B&M and myself decided there was plenty of meat in the cylinder to handle 357, so we reamed it to 357. I was the first ever to fire a SP101 in 357 Magnum, behind a tree of course. Massod Aboobie wrote an article about them and then Ruger started making them within a few months of the article coming out. That was a very long time ago. I had forgot about that until the friday night chili and cornbread feast! Brass and 777 grs! Hmmmm! Thanks J, http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well there it is, I was pissed off because Alf causes me so much extra work! No wonder! 4000 FPS!!!!!!!!! Boomy, might have to get Sharps to show me how to roll'em with paper and shoot them in the 500 MDM to get that fast??? How about we don't get our hopes that HIGH just yet! I might not have enough samples to work up that far? I don't think the 458 B&M would get us to there???? If I have enough will try some in the Lott. Jim, you lurking out there somewhere, quickly throw the Quickload on that and see what we can do with the 458 B&M and the Lott, what powders? My other puter is shut down now, and it's dark here on the east side, my bedtime you know! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael You can get some 20 thou copper jacket cups and turn the aluminium bullets into a .500" jacketed aluminium bullets. http://www.corbins.com/jackets.htm 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Booomy What ya reckon these ally bullets are going to do? I want you to know how troubled I am tonight, I can't think of the word for the.......like shooting bullets in shotguns for slugs, smaller than bore......put them in a...................?????? What's the word???? http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well with the hollow point forward fragment for organ damage and then turn into a solid to penetrate. The question is how fast will it go. How deep will it penetrate? What kind of wound channel will it make? This can turn your 458 carts into a home defense round/small game round/plinking round/ani flinch round (if you alternate the aluminium loads with your heavy rounds it can be a good anti flinch tool)/ see how they stabilize in a fast or slow twist barrel. These are just a few things. Who else here wants to turn their 458 Win Mag/Lott/45-70 into a home defense gun?
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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What's the damn word I am looking for??????? http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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SABOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally come to me! Put them in a 50 cal sabot for the 500 MDM! No, I am not going to do that, I just could not think of the damn word, sabot! Well, I don't know what aluminum does or reacts, brittle, soft, I don't know. For sure, we want the reaction of the petals shearing--typical proper NonCon style--and you know I believe that velocity drives the NonCon, more is good! So if we can up velocity, then performance should increase too? But being so light for caliber, other factors can and may kick in?????? Will be interesting. You see, just got to poke me a couple of times in the ribs, be persistent, don't let me blow you off, and you will get my interest! No not genius, well maybe, incorrigible for damn sure! But it was sabot I was looking for! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Genius? Incorrigible? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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the aluminum? it should be tougher than a lead bullet, but not as tough as brass .. interesting to see how sticky the petals are. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I am guessing the petals will shed within the first 3" like you want on an anti personel round. Turned backwards I am curious about depth of penetration and wound channel. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Jeffe Me too, How sticky will those petals be. I have a very good handle on the brass and the copper, but Aluminum???? Not a clue. The brass are very very predictable, all do the same thing, all shed petals exactly the same. Copper holds on to the petals and the petals stay within the center of the wound channel, brass spreads out and away from the wound channel. Aluminum? Might be interesting. Brian also said David had made some zinc bullets for JD too. If he finds them we will shoot them too! Zinc????? Hmmmm? All sorts of wild things! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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All y'all, Allyoominium bullets make spectacular fireworks when shot at rocks, according to Robgunbuilder. They are so light they have poor BC, since SD drives BC too. CQ gangsta buster at hypervelocity? Maybe. Barrel of monkeys for plinking. Jay might have the perfect bullet for .458 B&M Whaler loads. 777 grains and 3.25" long. !!! McCoy-Davis Pointed Bullet Optimum Rifling Twist Ballistics, a calculator from the Defunct Accu-Load program, predicts that a 10" twist is optimum for accuracy right around 1100 fps, +/- 100 fps, for a 3.25"-long .458 bullet, with a 2"-long nose of 10-caliber ogive. Hypothetically speaking, heh-heh. That leaves 1.25" of bullet to seat in the case. That leaves less than an inch of .458 B&M case in which to stick 41 grains of powder ... From Quick Load: 777-grain .458-caliber 3.25"-long bullet, 20" barrel 41 grains H4831SC: 1074 fps/ 23,843 psi 41 grains Benchmark: 1404 fps/ 56,304 psi/ 99.9% propellant burnt/ 44.5% ballistic efficiency !!!!! Recoil from 777-grain bullet in 6.5# rifle? 1074 fps or 1404 fps? Decisions, decisions ... | |||
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Sure would be a 100 yard bullet... That is enough for plinking, rabbits, squirrels, crows, home defense ect 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The recoil of the harpoon is only about 50 ft-lbs @ 22 fps for the 1074 fps load. 78 ft-lbs @ 28 fps for the 1404 fps load. Gentle. Michael, you won't need to terminal-test those in wetpack. Just a plinker. | |||
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