Now take a look at putting the 350 Barnes under some extreme stress!







Not too bad at all!

Michael

Well done Michael, as usual...

Looking forward to the test of the Hornady DGS 500 grs in .458" in the B&M or Win Mag and the Lott..

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
honestly I had a wisdom tooth pulled yesterday, and my head is exploding this morning. If I had to shoot a 22 lr I am quite sure my head would roll off, hit the floor and start bouncing!
Michael

I know how you feel. I am one of those barbarians removing these teeth for a living..

You better take it easy for a short while.
Get well soon Michael..

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Tanzan
Thanks for kicking in on this, and you are 100% correct, check that twist, very important on 416 I think. I would guess 1:14, but.........? If stability could be an issue with the 400s, then one gives up nothing with either the 370 NorthFork or 350 Barnes, both available and I have both that I could load for samples to see if they will feed in Hoots rifle! Both test good, I have used the 350 Barnes in the field, but not enough. I have little experience with buffalo and 416s of any sort--X1 only, with the 416 B&M in 2007.

Velocity with the Barnes or the North Fork will only help to stabilize, and give deeper penetration in my opinion. 1:14 is sensitive to 400 + in 416! Velocity can help with that, but it's got to be around 2500 fps or so in my opinion. Might for sure be far better off with the 350-370 gr bullets. Straight penetration is all that counts! 50 Inches in my tests is plenty.



Of special note!!!!! Loss of stability at the very end of penetration is of NO CONSEQUENCE and of No Import! A lot of the time, most all will lose stability right at the very end of penetration. The loss of velocity will many times cause the loss of stability, but at the very last inch or two of penetration!

Compare to below!


Now the 400s that are not stable in my lower velocity 416 B&M 1:14 twists!!!


But as we increase velocity with the same bullet in 416 Remington case and still 1:14 twist, stability is increased by velocity!


M

I just ran the data to see what kind of stability factors we are looking at with these 416 flat nose in 14" twists.

The 350 at 2445 has a stability factor of 3.50 and had impressive straight penetration.

The 400 grain at 2495 has a 3.09 stability factor and likewise produced excellent straight penetration.

However, two out of three 400 grain at 2138 veered off course at 35". Their stability factors were 2.93. That is not a whole lot of difference, but it may reflect a threshhold for that particular meplat percentage.

Thus, the increased velocity difference upped the stability factor from 2.93 to 3.09 and apparently brought it into a stable zone.
This might need a little more testing in order to confirm the threshhold, and it may indicate that a 3.0 stability factor is better for this particular solid.

Caliber: 470 Nitro Express
Rifle: Krieghoff Double
Twist Rate: 1 in 18.9
Brass: Jamison
Primer: Remington 9 1/2M
Powder: Reloder 15

The test box is fabricated from 2 by 6 pine boards and is 72” long.
Test media consisted of ¼” luan, 12” of saturated newspaper, 2 by 6 treated pine (shooting through the 1 5”8” thickness), and approximately 60” of saturated newspaper. Great care was taken to make certain the newspaper was thoroughly soaked in a tub prior to placing in the test bed.
After placing the paper in the test bed excess water was permitted to drain for 30 minutes.
The bullet entered the box at 32 feet from the muzzle.

Bullets tested:
Hornady 500 Grain solid @ an average impact velocity of 2079
Bullet Length: 1.2935” Before firing
Bullet Length: 1.294” After firing
Bullet Meplat: .271” or 57.3% of diameter

The test consisted of firing consisted of firing 3 Hornady bullets in the test media.

Shot 1: 48” of straight line penetration, it began to turn sideways/veer offcourse and traveled another 21” stopping sideways.

Shot 2: 40” of straight line penetration, it began to turn sideways/veer offcourse and traveled another 23” stopping sideways.

Shot 3: 34” of straight line penetration, it began to turn sideways/veer offcourse and traveled another 20” and exited the top of the box.


Better than the Woodleigh, not as good as the North Fork.



.474 500 Grain Hornady

michael458,

Yes, I do handload and I handload all the ammo I have ever used in hunting and target shooting. The handloads I took to Tanzania in 2006 were loaded with 400gn Swift Soft Points and 400gn Barnes Solids. The solids were the ones with the flat meplats on the nose. I do have some of the Barnes round nose solids, but they did not shoot well. I load Norma Brass with H4831 to a chronographed velocity of 2400 fps. I was told that this is the optimum velocity to insure straight penetration. (Have not had the chance to test them on an animal) This loading is extremely accurate and both softs and solids impact the same. I have a target that has one soft and three solids in one hole at 50 yards. I also have a target that has three softs and two solids in a 1 1/4 group at 100 yards. These being the Barnes and Swift bullets. I would post pictures of the targets, but I don't know how. If you would PM me with an e-mail address I could send them to you. My load for the two is 97 grns of H 4831 and a Rem 9 1/2 mag primer. As far as accuracy and function in the rifle goes, I think that I am in good shape. The only question is the terminal performance of the Barnes Solid. From looking at the posts, the Barnes Solid performs very well.

My rifle is a early Ruger M77 Mag. The barrel is 24 inches long and a 1 in 14 twist. I purchased the rifle in 1998. The rifle shoots well. I have a Leupold 1.5 to 5x variable scope on the rifle and the furnished open Express Sights.

On another topic. I always wondered about the bedding system on the early Rugers. They have an unconventional system. It has a plate that has a hole for a boss on the receiver and this plate is fixed up on the forearm. So far I have not had any problems with the stock or accuracy for that matter. I have shot some 250 rounds through the rifle and nothing has let go so far. I have resisted glass bedding the rifle as many on AR have suggested. I thought that that might insure the stock splitting and the accuracy of the rifle is in my opinion, outstanding. Don't want to fix something that is not broke. Does anyone have any experience with stock splitting with the Ruger and un altered factory bedding? I don't know why, but I have never been completely trusting in the system, but so far I can't argue with success.

Again my thanks to all for their willingness to help me and insuring my success if I do my part on my up coming elephant safari in October.

Muchas gracias,
Hoot

416Tanzan,

Thank you for answering my posts. I answered smoe of your questions/concerns in my latest reply to Michael458. I looked at the "ballistics calculator that you offered in your post. I will get the measurements etc in the morning and run them for the results. If you look in my reply to Michael458 regarding the accuracy in my 1 in 14 twist barrel, it is very good. Maybe the difference is in the velocity.

Again my thanks for your help.

Muchas gracias,
Hoot

Michael458,

I re read your post and I overlooked a couple of questions you had. I have tried other solids and softs. On my first hunt with the 416 Rigby in 1999 I used the Trophy Bonded softs and solids. I took a Cape Buffalo with the soft and did not get a chance to use a solid. On my second hunt in Tanzania in 2006 I used the combination listed in my previous post. I only fired two shots, solids to check the zero. We hunted hard for a good buffalo but I did not get one. I was offered a shot at a good one on the last morning of the hunt. The buffalo was facing me and by the time I got on the "sticks" he turned facing away. We were slightly above him and I am sure that I could have shot the buffalo in the spine/hip and disabled him and then finish the kill. I elected to not take the shot. My PH asked me why I did not take the shot. I told him that I have never shot an animal with the intention of wounding/disabling it. I have always tried my very best to kill the animal with one shot. It has not always worked that way, but I did give it my dead level best. All and all I have had few animals that required a second shot.

I do have some 350gn Barnes Solids and I am sure that I tried some out, but I cannot remember the results and I do not have a target showing how they shot. Boiling it all down, I have loaded only Trophy Bonded 400gn softs and Solids, Barnes 400gn Round Nose Solids, Barnes 400gn Flat Nose Solids and Barnes 350gn Solids and Hornady 400gn Round Nose Softs (practice loads).

Muchas gracias,
Hoot

Hoot

I don't know, but it sounds like you may well be on your way and ready! Obviously your rifle will feed the 400 Barnes FN solids and do it well, sounds like it shoots very well in your rifle. In my opinion if you keep the velocity up this bullet will be fine. In my rifles at 1:14 when that velocity is below say 2300 fps or so then it gets to be a question as to whether it will stabilize or not? At the higher velocity they do stabilize fine. This stability with the 400s for TERMINAL Penetration is the ONLY question I have in my mind. Hence my experiences of late with my rifles and the 1:14 twists. Which I have already told Brian at SSK if I build anymore personal 416 B&Ms then I want 1:12 for them, and 1:12 is a common twist available for 416.

I think I can only suggest to you know is to try the 350 Barnes and try the 370 North Forks in your rifle, velocity around 2450 plus, which will be easy in that case, more velocity won't detract from your mission. While you are at it, for other said critters the 350 Swift and the 350 Barnes TSX are great bullets in combo with that weight solids, give them a try too. There is no doubt for terminal penetration that 1;14 will stabilize the 350 and 370 solids! Personally I don't think you are giving up anything dropping the weight to the 350s, and I know that stability is better in that twist.

I think you should keep your Sledgehammers that you got direct from Jack Carter, and put them away, as I am sure you will never get anymore like those!

One last little piece of advice, as long as you have a shot, keep shooting, does not matter if it's at the ass or the other end, never stop shooting until the problem is solved 100% down and out. Then shoot one more time for insurance! Anyway, you don't want to carry all that ammo back home with you!

Michael

Mike

Excellent test and results about what I would have expected. Oh and by the way I measured the meplat too on the box I got, damned if I didn't get exactly .271" too. I thought I read yesterday you got .270, but I see it's .271! I got exactly that!

It appears to me that the 57% meplat is doing everything it can to get it stable, but just can't quite get it there with 1:18. Meplat is a little short in my opinion on all the Hornadys, but as I have stated I believe it to be a "compromise bullet" compromising meplat size for feed and function. Now many other factors must come into play for it to be 100% stable, if it ever can. Twist Rate and velocity at the top of the list, in my opinion.

If my barrels were worth a damn in my capsticks I would say I might get them there with 1:10 for sure, and then around 2300 fps or so? But my barrels are in serious question on my capsticks so we will see. I am giving the Hornadys a workout, maybe next week, in 3 calibers, .510, .474, and .458. I am sure at lower velocities they are not going to be stable, so I am going to try and push the limits a bit with what I have to work with.

From your report we see 48" straight, 40" straight and down to 34" inches straight. This seems to be typical of an Unstable bullet. It's trying, but just can't get there 100% of the time. In between the 100% Unstable Woodleigh RN and the 100% stable North Fork, I believe that is the 57% meplat trying it's best! I only did a very limited test with the 480 458 version, I got the same results and never messed with it again for personal purposes. I was satisfied with the results and now it appears I was correct in that early assessment.

Now let's not forget that 465HH had good results in his elephants on this, good straight line penetration according to him. Now this is not a big surprise and have stated often this point. Given enough medium bullets do not change their colors. Stated often I believe the wet print medium a little tougher on bullets than animal tissue. By tough I don't mean it will Break and bend them, just tougher medium for them to DRIVE through, and tough enough to bring out any flaws they might have. Given enough animal tissue medium I think that a round nose will veer off course each time, but there must be enough medium to see this. Poking through the broadside buffalo or through the elephant head is not always enough medium in which to bring this effect to light. This is why they can be successful and have been on animals for a long time. The potential remains, it has not gone away. This is why I contend that one takes the very best of the tests, and uses that in the field. Success rates tend to soar upwards, with much less potential to have a problem or issue. Seems logical to me.

I have a friend, the "B" in the B&M. I am not much of a race fan, but this analogy works for me. He always stated that one does not do so well if trying to learn from the last 5 finishers of a race! One wishes to learn from the first 5 finishers, not the last!

Excellent work Mike, just excellent!

Michael

Michael,

I am glad your head seems to still be attached.

I was suprised with the difference in straight penetration between the three shots. More work is required, and I agree it is a good compromise bullet. Should feed fine in any decent rifle and with the .271 meplat and penetration is not bad.

Hope your friend enjoys real racing, NASCAR.

Thanks for the compliment.

Hoot,

How did you enjoy the video? I thought I recognized your name and checked my list.

Yes the head is still attached, good news I think! I thought about shooting today, but maybe not such a good idea so I abandoned that thought. I suppose I will hold off until Monday. Since I am right handed, and it's my lower right side, still a little swollen, probably not so good to be banging it around.

Damn tooth been giving me some issues since December, I decided I did not want to be in Cambridge Bay with a aggravating tooth so it had to go! Appears I was correct on that.

Ulrik, a dentist eh? Well that's good to know if I am ever in your neck of the woods and have an issue!

Yes the Hornady is trying eh? I will hammer them next week and see if I can get velocity to give them a hand.

B is a Nascar fan too by the way. I don't know much about it, never even watched a race.

"Team Penetration", that's what I think I will call you guys from now on!

Anyone have anything to add to my advice to Hoot? Anyone disagree? Any other points I missed? Don't want my boy going over under gunned, or in this case "under bulleted". Nows the time to get this discussed!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ulrik, a dentist eh? Well that's good to know if I am ever in your neck of the woods and have an issue!
Michael

You are welcome Michael...

By the way - do you mind measuring the meplat of the 500 grs .458" DGS bullet from Hornady? I could understand that the 474" had a .271" /56% meplat, but what about the DGS in 458" ??

Thanks..

And please get well soon - so you can do some serious shooting...

Buffalo

I measured all of the Hornadys yesterday and recorded the measurements on the sheets I have. For the 458 version of the Hornady I get .250 or 55%. On the 480 version I am getting .246, but I would bet they are both basically the same, it may be in the measurement or stamps. At any rate both coming in very close at 54-55% meplat for caliiber. The .510 version at .280 or 56% of caliber. I would guess Hornady figures 55% regardless of caliber and strives for that. In my opinion it's a little short on meplat by 10 percentage points.

Ya think I knock something loose if I shoot today, Doc Buffalo?

Michael

Mike

Take a look above your post at the 400 gr Barnes banded 416 at the low velocity 2100 + in my 416 B&M with 1;14 twist! Another picture of instability there with the various penetration depths! It's trying, but twist rate and velocity is too low to stabilize. Same as the Hornady 474s--it's trying, but meplat is too small for the twist and velocity in this case. Close, but not there! Just an interesting note.

M

OK I just got news from Brian that all my .510 barrels are 1:15 twist rates. FYI and goes on the sheets as such. This includes the .510 Wells and the 50 Alaskans I have. Make special note---all My .500 calibers are 1:12, including the 50 B&M Alaskan which is my preferred lever cartridge is 1:12.

FYI

Loading test loads for next week in .510 Wells, 470 Capstick, 458 Lott.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Buffalo
Ya think I knock something loose if I shoot today, Doc Buffalo?
Michael

We wont take that chance... We need you to have a speedy recovery you know..

Above is appropriate for my situation LOL


Not 2 minutes ago my wife said the same thing! I thought I would go at least just sight the 470s in, but I will wait!

Michael

Doc Buffalo,
Good advice to the impatient patient, we don't want his wounds opening up again.
All y'all,
I am still here, learning from the great professors, the geniuses of Accurate Reloading University.
Excellent stuff!
Will contribute some .458 and .510 FN solid tests one of these days ...

DENTIST EEEEEEEKKKK

No just kidding, I've only had one bad dentist and it was in the Navy. Went in for root canal and he broke off the drill in my tooth. 3 hours later I was missing the tooth and had a broken jaw.

My Dentist now is great. My first time with him I got in the chair and had to remove my pancake holster (it and the model 24 Smith 21/2 inch) from my back and hand it to him.
He said Niiiice and pulled out his Colt Commander from behind his back and set it on the counter next to it.
Been my favorite Dentist ever since.

John

IBT,
Thanks for "pointing" out the screw-on steel nipples
on those experimental Woodleighs.
This is such a leap in technology that future slang will surely replace the term "woodie" with "Woodleigh."
Does the Woodleigh TN solid offer any benefit over a standard truncated-cone FN?

Get a load of Saeed's .700-cal/1000-grain copper FN, I am guessing .500" FN meplat, about 71.4%:
(from the African Hunting Forum ... he needs to kill something with this)

RIP

That is a fine looking bullet Saeed has there! My experience above 51 is limited, and I have even limited that experience at 51. Plenty of .500 and less. As for depth of penetration, in the test work bigger seems to be given less at same velocities. Now I am not saying that is fact, but that is what it seems. A little bit of experience with the 600 OK seemed to suggest the same, even with the big barnes. Of course velocity is at play too, since those were only at 2000 fps (as I recall) with a 900 gr bullet. We know that meplat size at some point will begin to shorten penetration also, even if being stable. Just random thoughts concerning caliber and penetration, or depth of penetration.

Ok, not even sighting anything in, just taking some photos and getting loads ready for next test work. RIP glad you are around, and yes I think it's going to take you to do some more extensive .510 tests. If you need sample 51s like the Hornady or Barnes to compare let me know I will get some on the way. I think you have plenty of Agent J's superb bullet on hand, so you are not getting any of mine! Any word on the 458 barrels???

M

HOLY SMOKES
He is NOT playing around.
If that does not do it, then it's time for air strikes!

John

Michael

Lets see if we can get you and Colin together for a thorough testing of his underlever ... I anticipate BIG things ...

Michael,

Unless you’re keeping those Capsticks as future collector items why don’t you have Brian rebarrel one of them with a Pac-Nor .475 caliber 1:10” twist rate Super-Match Grade barrel. I’m sure you’d get very good Capstick bullet performance after the rebarrel job.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Michael

Lets see if we can get you and Colin together for a thorough testing of his underlever ... I anticipate BIG things ...

Michael and Colin testing the underlever in the Lab would definately require a video tape for our collective viewing enjoyment!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Michael

Lets see if we can get you and Colin together for a thorough testing of his underlever ... I anticipate BIG things ...

J
I suppose you want us to do this;



Bring a fork lift and a set of wheels!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Unless you’re keeping those Capsticks as future collector items why don’t you have Brian rebarrel one of them with a Pac-Nor .475 caliber 1:10” twist rate Super-Match Grade barrel. I’m sure you’d get very good Capstick bullet performance after the rebarrel job.

Capo

I should have done that for sure! No I don't collect, I shoot! I already had Brian cut the barrels down and put barrel band front sights on and blue! I never plan on taking them to the field, they are still too big and long!

Capo

See that little short gun on the bottom? That's me buddy! Nice short, light, handy, fast and totes easy! See that big stupid long looking thing on top? That will never get past the range!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Capo

See that little short gun on the bottom? That's me buddy! Nice short, light, handy, fast and totes easy! See that big stupid long looking thing on top? That will never get past the range!

I know Michael...I know. I'm still trying to wrap my head around your recommended 20" barrel for the 50 MDM!
I still believe my wussy shoulder would prefer the length and weight of Blondie than of your shorter B&M rifles.

Edit Added: Geez I just noticed this post opened page 52! Wow!!!
Edit Edit Added: I'm keeping a running pdf file of this thread and through page 51 it equals 1,129 printed pages...including some of Alf's dots and some of his full posts. Buku ink to print this sucker!!!

Mike70560,

I really enjoyed the video. I have been getting a few videos here lately on elephant hunting. The refreshing thing about your video was that the hunters seemed to be common, ordinary guys. I was glad to see that some of the elephants were shot in the heart/lung area. Most videos I have watched feature head only shots and at extremely close range. I began to think that a head shot was the only acceptable shot.

Gracias
Hoot

quote:

big stupid long looking thing on top

Just send the clunker to me - no need to be tortured by that thing any longer Michael ..!!

416Tanzan,

I ran the 400gn Barnes Banded and the 400gn Sledgehammer through the calculator link you provided.

The Barnes came out at 3.020 and high lighted in green for good to go.

The Barnes 350gn came out at 3.014 and high lighted in green. A little less than the 400gn. Looking at the data, there is really no difference between the 400gn and the 350gn. One could step up the velocity and get a little improvement.

The Sledgehammer came out a 4.001 and high lighted in green.

Now the only question with the Sledgehammer is it tough enough for the job. I have seen only one picture of a Sledgehammer on the thread and it lost some if not all the lead in the base and the bullet was bent somewhat. No comparison with the Barnes. Most Barnes I have seen look like they could be loaded and fired again.

Muchas gracias,
Hoot

quote:

Originally posted by Hoot Murray:
416Tanzan,

I ran the 400gn Barnes Banded and the 400gn Sledgehammer through the calculator link you provided.

The Barnes came out at 3.020 and high lighted in green for good to go.

The Barnes 350gn came out at 3.014 and high lighted in green. A little less than the 400gn. Looking at the data, there is really no difference between the 400gn and the 350gn. One could step up the velocity and get a little improvement.

The Sledgehammer came out a 4.001 and high lighted in green.

Now the only question with the Sledgehammer is it tough enough for the job. I have seen only one picture of a Sledgehammer on the thread and it lost some if not all the lead in the base and the bullet was bent somewhat. No comparison with the Barnes. Most Barnes I have seen look like they could be loaded and fired again.

Muchas gracias,
Hoot

glad to help.
I do have one question on the figures--
what lengths did you plug in for the 400 grain Barnes and the 350 grain Barnes? They are significantly different and should produce 'sf' ratings with a larger spread than 3.01 and 3.02.

In any case, it sounds like an elephant's heart will be on the line. Will you be in Tanzania again, or where? (you mentioned TZ with a buffalo some time back.

PS: I would guess that the 350 Barnes would have about +0.50 greater 'SF', or +0.40 if you don't also load it at least a couple of hundred fps faster.
The 'green' and 'red' refer to in-air flight and not terminal stability of solids in flesh. Anything over 1.3 will fly and get 'green'. It's comforting to see green when evaluating a long 270 or 7mm expanding bullet, but Michael's testings are pointing to the vicinity of 3.0 +flat nose for terminal solid stability.

416Tanzan,

I measured the Barnes and Sledgehammer and ran them.
On the Barnes 350 ( i didn't have one to measure) I got it from the length list on the site. You're right! I entered the wrong length for the 350 Barnes. I entered the correct length and came up with 3.614. A lot of difference.

No, I am not going to Tanzania again. Just too expensive for me. Although I would like to as I saw a true 100 pounder on the Tanzania side of the Kenya Border. My PH contacted his father in Dar es Salam and he contacted the game department. They flew two game scouts to live with the elephant to keep him from being poached. Probably to keep the elephant from returning to Kenya and the National Park he probably came from.

I am going to Zimbabwe and I will be hunting with HHK in the old Sengwa Research Area, next to Chrisia Safari Area. I hunted Chrisia in 1999 and shot the only buffalo I have taken.

Tenga cuidado,
Hoot

Capo

20" on the 50 MDM is all you need! More barrel is a waste of metal! If I thought I could have burned 100 grs in 20 inches I would have done the 500 MDM the same. It really needs about 22 minimum, but I broke between with 21. 21 seems to be a good compromise, and I am willing to sacrifice that little bit of velocity for a little less weight and bulk.

Of course that goes double for all the B&Ms. With the 50 and 458 great at 18 and even the 416 doing plenty with 18, better with 20. 9.3 small bore needs 20. Simply must lay hands on these to understand, photos don't do it.


J

I think I will keep that big stupid looking thing around to remind me how wonderful my Winchesters are, it don't take 2 seconds of handling, then I remember easy! So it must hang around for that and just in case I have to shoot any 51s. Thanks for trying to help out however, I appreciate it! HEH.

M

Hoot

I have hunted several times with HHK, first class bunch all the way! Mostly with Rich Cooke, and if he was not available he match me up with some others and always a great time. Do you know who you are hunting with?

Michael

Still waiting on the Pac-Nor Barrel for a 20" .458 B&M that might weigh 6.5 pounds dry.
However, I am quite comfortable with carrying grownup-sized rifles.

Today was a lazy day. Did not feel like doing much. But I did start testing the 375H&H I am bringing to Zim and Moz this year. It will be the backup for the double and my main Plainsgame rifle.

Recently I purchased a couple of boxes of North Fork softs. Impressive so far.

Nothing definitive, but adding 2 more grains of powder gained 63FPS and 3" more penetration (12.5%).