-agree with U Michael. That would not be a rifle with a scope.. - it would be a scope with a rifle

NORTH FORK










I think I might find room to keep some "Conventionals" on hand!

Michael

quote:

NORTH FORK

Those are gonna knock the piss out of something!

Back in the days of old, I favored the 400 Swift A Frame for some of the 458 Winchester work, superb on thin skinned game. I used it quite a bit in that role. While the Swift is still dandy as can be, I think today I would very much favor this 400 North Fork for those duties. It would make a hell of a lion/bear bullet.

The 325 North Fork is no slouch either, in my 416 B&Ms I would not hesitate to use it in the same capacity, and would be much preferable over heavier bullets at lower velocity for that sort of work. That expansion, velocity, and penetration is hard to beat.

With bullets like the North Forks I think I have room for keeping some conventionals on hand.

Michael

Man o man I KNOW whats going into my 416 for anything short of ele and maybe buff.

Those are some sort of pretty-

SSR

That little 458 B&M Super Short is just as cute as a blonde in an easter hat.

I think I see a nother lil gun somewhere down the road.

BTW Happy Lent y'all



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:


Man o man I KNOW whats going into my 416 for anything short of ele and maybe buff.

Those are some sort of pretty-

SSR

Cross

Uploading new 416 B&M load data to the website, jest of the issue is 416 B&M 325 North Fork 75/AA 2520 for average of 2553 fps at 59309 PSI--well under 65000 PSI. Plenty enough to accomplish the job, enough under max to be safe with different components.

M

It's really hard to tell for sure from the photos, but it looks like the .416 might have expanded slightly more than the .458.

Michael,

You had me going when I saw that little 458 SS cartridge and then saw a velocity of 2396 fps with a 400 grain. I know that was with a B&M.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

You had me going when I saw that little 458 SS cartridge and then saw a velocity of 2396 fps with a 400 grain. I know that was with a B&M.

Sam

HEH HEH--Yeah, that would have been a trip EH????? Smoking! Nahhh, not from the little 458 SS. It's best with 300s-350s. I lean to the 325s for it, at 2250-2300 fps. The 458 SS can take the 300s to over 2400 however! Not too bad for a tiny little package!



Glenn

The 416 325 expands to .800 + a tad and the 458 400s expanded to .825 + a tad.

Not too shabby, and penetration is very good. More than enough penetration for anything with thin skin, elk, moose, bear, lions, eland, zebra and so forth. As I recall the penetration of the 325 North Fork in 416 is right there with the 350 Barnes X, or maybe an inch less, which is not much to worry with. I would very gleefully bust a buffalo with the 350 Barnes X without issue. So the 325 North Fork is getting there as well.

Michael

Re: big scope survey
A picure IS worth a thousand words...not on my B&M!
In this case "BIG" is NOT better.

quote:

Re: big scope survey

I've retreated from my Leupold days and now have compact 2.0-8.0 Nikon's because of better eye relief and the glass is good. I think that their compact length and lightness would fit on Michael's rifles nicely.

Also interesting would be feedback on the Bushnell Elite 1.25-8.0 that has 6"-5" eyerelief. Has anyone here used one? (Bushnell also has a very cheap 3-9 that provides 6"-4.5" eyerelief that would be tempting on a DGRifle if it rode the recoil well. Except that only a long-range rifle needs 9 power, and 3 power is a bit high for in close.) The 1.25, though, remains a more expensive option.

I’ll be using the Minox ZA-5 1.5-8x32 (German #4 reticle) backed up by the Nikon Monarch African 1-4x20 (German #4 reticle) on my 50 MDM. Both are 1” tube, have a consistent 4”-4.1” eye relief, and weigh less than ½oz of each other. For those that have a Leupold VX-3 1.75-6x32 – this is the same length but ½oz lighter than the Minoz ZA-5 1.5-8x32. Unfortunately, my 50 MDM rifle build is still months away from completion and I don’t currently own any other big bore so I can’t give any comment regarding durability with the Minox.

Well many of you know I have busted the hell out of a lot of 1.5X5 VX3s--most on the 50 B&Ms. A few issues with others, but my scopes get changed around so much it's hard to say for sure. Last count I had 12-15 1X4 and 1.5X5 Leupolds. I have yet to send one of the 1X4 VX2s back for repairs. Last fall I sent Leupold 3 of the 1.5X5 VX3s for repairs. I spoke with them, told them if they were agreeable that I would just as soon that they replace them with 1X4 VX2s, but to please put the heavy cross hairs in the 1X4s. Couple of weeks and 3 new 1X4 VX2s with heavy cross hairs arrived. I will be using them on the June trip, unless I bust them before hand.

Other thing, cheapy--VX 1 1X4-$199.00 from Midway. Got 3 of those last fall-two on 50 B&Ms, shooting hard, 100s of rounds now with new pressure traces, things like that--they are still holding together fine. But these are "Friction" movement, and I don't like that so well, not quite as precise, glass and my eyes are not doing so well. But if they hold up..........

Nikon African Monarch 1X4. Man at first did not like it so good--big knob eye piece on the rear, big turrent knobs sticking up and don't care for the german #4 whatever that is. But the glass is clear as can be, I think I actually see better with it than the leupolds. Great eye relief, VV Excellent field of view for those very close shots at 10 yds or less. Love the quick focus on the rear, this one is growing on me fast. It moves correctly as well.

I think Jim is going to send me his Minox to see if I can break it! HEH HEH--well better to find out now than in the field!

450NE--Should have your 458 B&M next week--that's the word I get!

M

I am going with a Trijicon 1.25x4 w/amber triangle/post. thats the 1 in tube model. Wish it was a bit higher mag at top but Love the low end view and hope it will be a very fast scope.

The illumination with out batteries is the main draw to it Eye relief good at 5 in at 1.25

SSR

Cross

I forgot, I have one of those trijicons too. It has begin to grow on me, good eye relief, good field of view, and I have not broken it yet either. I have the cross hairs, do not like the post thing.

M

Michael

When I can afford the silly thing I plan on backing up the 1.25x4 with a Trijicon 3x9 with crosshair and illuminated dot. so will have both reticles. Sight 1.25x4 in at 50 yds and 3x9 2in high at 100yds and good to go anywhere.

( I hope )

SSR

My 50 B&Ms busted two Leupolds. A 1.5X5 and a 1.75X6. Got to send them back. Got irons on those guns now.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
My 50 B&Ms busted two Leupolds. A 1.5X5 and a 1.75X6. Got to send them back. Got irons on those guns now.

The 50s are hard as hell on scopes. Sam, you know that silver VX1 Turkey thing I have on the maple gun? Still good to go, has had a few hundred shot now, no issues? I may use it in June? Have to get some shooting in with it, then get another scope or two ready too. I am also getting very tempted to take that english 458 B&M instead of the maple 50?

M

Yeah Michael, I tried to find one of those scopes and seems like they are all gone now with the Turkey plex. At least the NWTF ones.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
My 50 B&Ms busted two Leupolds. A 1.5X5 and a 1.75X6. Got to send them back. Got irons on those guns now.

The 50s are hard as hell on scopes. Sam, you know that silver VX1 Turkey thing I have on the maple gun? Still good to go, has had a few hundred shot now, no issues? I may use it in June? Have to get some shooting in with it, then get another scope or two ready too. I am also getting very tempted to take that english 458 B&M instead of the maple 50?

M

On your recommendation I bought one of the VX1 turkey scopes and so far love it on my 500ar. Thank you. It only cost me $200 delivered!

quote:

The 416 325 expands to .800 + a tad and the 458 400s expanded to .825 + a tad.

Cool. That's almost twice the expansion for the .416. Sounds like a winner. I don't see how you could go wrong with either, but I'm fairly sure against buff the extra edge of the .458 is more desirable.

A little ciphering. This will show what I've been talking about all along about the potential for damage (or work done, according to physics.)
I base my "Knocking the Piss out of 'Em" factor partly on the high energy of the bullets. The .416 has about 4665 ft-lbs of energy and the .458 has about 4960, rounded.
To determine the extent of which something is damaged either in the medium or to the bullet, I use the resisting force. The shortcut for this is to divide the energy divided by the penetration in feet. Very neatly, this gives the force. So 4665 x 12 / 17 = about 3290 and 4960 x 12 / 19 = about 3130.
But the expansion factor of the .416 is about 1.92 and that of the .458 is about 1.8. So this indicates that possibly more of the larger resisting force went into expanding the smaller caliber to a bigger percentage than happened with the larger caliber. (It would be hard to tell exactly how much because we'd have to know the strength of the bullet.) Since there is little mass loss, most of the rest of the force would likely go into damage to the target by cavitation. Or the target is going to be moved. At any rate, over 3000 pounds of force is quite a bit to subject a target or a bullet to!

At least, these are my theories.

quote:

My 50 B&Ms busted two Leupolds. A 1.5X5 and a 1.75X6. Got to send them back. Got irons on those guns now.

With a caliber like that I'd be afraid of those scopes being busted against my face!

Cross
I see you are dropping hints for your birthday!

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

The 416 325 expands to .800 + a tad and the 458 400s expanded to .825 + a tad.

Cool. That's almost twice the expansion for the .416. Sounds like a winner. I don't see how you could go wrong with either, but I'm fairly sure against buff the extra edge of the .458 is more desirable.

I wont argue the 458 might be more effective but I also believe the 416 is more than sufficient.



SSR

quote:

I think Jim is going to send me his Minox to see if I can break it! HEH HEH--well better to find out now than in the field!

Yep...going out express mail tomorrow morning.

quote:

I wont argue the 458 might be more effective but I also believe the 416 is more than sufficient.

Yep. The critters won't care.

Leupolds Custom Shop just started offering a FX-II 3X20 Big Bore scope..
I believe that you can order it with a German #4 reticle..
You have to call their Custom Shop to order it..
Check out 24HrCampfires optic forum for pictures and more info on the scope..

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I am also getting very tempted to take that english 458 B&M instead of the maple 50?

M

One vote for the 458, would love to see more field reports on it.
Esp since I have now learned here on AR that a 458 Win Mag is too anemic for mice and you must go up to Lott ballistics or the animals shrug and snicker at you.

SSR
SSR

Cross

Of all the B&Ms the 50 has been to the field the most since 2006. I suppose it had the most to prove being .500. Well it's pretty well proven, from pigs to elephant and all in between. I had a 458 B&M in Australia, it did a hammer of a job on 7 buffalo + down there, including two fine old bulls. I really love that gunkote finish 458 B&M with the 18 inch barrel and english stock, it just feels great. Load it up with the 420 NonCons and 450 Solids for a couple of buffalo, it would do fine.

Wes at Accurate Innovations has it right now, he was showing it off somewhere, and now he has a 458 B&M in the works as well.

??????? Maybe?????

M

For anyone that is interested I have the 458 Barrel Strain tests posted on the B&M website as of this morning. Documents are there in pdf format and can be downloaded if you want. Just FYI is all.

Direct link;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...rel-Strain-Test.html


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
For anyone that is interested I have the 458 Barrel Strain tests posted on the B&M website as of this morning. Documents are there in pdf format and can be downloaded if you want. Just FYI is all.

Direct link;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...rel-Strain-Test.html

Michael

Michael,

Very interesting data especially the issues the 18” barrel is causing regarding the strain gauge work.

Now, while you note that there is no cross use of data between the 470 NE DR strain gauge data and the 458 B&M bolt strain data…your lower velocity/lower pressure loading in the 458 B&M is in down in the 450 NE DR range so could there be any possible crossover of data in that paired set?...Fully understanding difference in barrel thickness and composition. Any chance of running strain gauge testing on a 450 NE DR?...I think it would be interesting to see the difference in strain gauge readings between the barrels.

Jim

The strain gage readings can change from day to day on the same hookup. This is why you can only compare basically averages over several tests, or only that days test. Due to electrical noise, environmental changes, or sometimes just BECAUSE--the readings will be up or down by as much as 2000 PSI any given day. So you see you can't compare what was done last week to this week in the same barrel, much less different barrels.

What you can compare and what has been consistent across the board is the basic line up of the different bullets from low to hi barrel strain. This can and does cross barrels, calibers, and cartridges.

Some of the bullets are so close, within just a few 100 PSI or in some cases much less, that is too close to call and that line up or order would change back and forth easy.

The basic lineup you see on the 458 barrel strains is very good. It's as good as it's going to get. If you use the 500 Woodleigh Soft as a benchmark bullet--Considered Safe by most everyone--then what falls close or below the Woodleigh is good to go, what falls above the Woodleigh should be looked at very carefully.

Michael

Jim

FYI--460 CEB BBW #13 NonCon HP .500 caliber--shears and operates perfect at 1950 fps impact velocity.

Did it this morning.

Looks good. Oh and penetrates to 24 inches.

M

Michael,

That makes perfect sense. Strain gauges are just like every other electronic devise – almost impossible to get identical readings whether the readings are taken in sequence on the same day or whether taken on difference days. And strain gauges are a reloader’s tool that should be used along with their chronographs for every new bullet they intend to use in their firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

That makes perfect sense. Strain gauges are just like every other electronic devise – almost impossible to get identical readings whether the readings are taken in sequence on the same day or whether taken on difference days. And strain gauges are a reloader’s tool that should be used along with their chronographs for every new bullet they intend to use in their firearm.

What makes you think that each load fired produces exactly the same pressure?

JWP and Jim

Yes, if you have a load that is under 1000 PSI extreme spread in 3 rounds, that is very close. It is not uncommon for there to be 2500-3500 PSI difference in given loads. I don't worry too much about those. When extremes get to 5000 or more PSI, then I want to look at things a little closer.

M

JWP

Go back to page 142 and look at that S&B scope I am trying out on the B&Ms at your request!

HEH HEH

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
JWP

Go back to page 142 and look at that S&B scope I am trying out on the B&Ms at your request!

HEH HEH

M

I tend too agree the PM11 series of scopes are too big



A straight tube 1 1/4X4 would be perfection on the little rifle

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

That makes perfect sense. Strain gauges are just like every other electronic devise – almost impossible to get identical readings whether the readings are taken in sequence on the same day or whether taken on difference days. And strain gauges are a reloader’s tool that should be used along with their chronographs for every new bullet they intend to use in their firearm.

What makes you think that each load fired produces exactly the same pressure?

jwp,

Please re-read my second sentence. I do not think nor do I presume that each load with have the exact same pressure just as they will not have the exact same velocity. I do however believe and presume that - under identical conditions - the electronic readings will be close, just not exact.

Well lets see--500 MDM 500 CEB #13 reduced velocity 2370 fps, 460 CEB NonCon 2530 fps, 450 North Fork CPS all same POI at 50 yds! 425 CEB NonCon Deep Cavity Grenade 2620 fps 2.5 inches higher than the others, but windage good.

Still debating 458 B&M or 50 B&M??? Wes at Accurate Innovations has my English 18 inch 458 B&M right now, doing something or other, but it's on the way home Monday. Might try some POIs with several bullets with it, see how it does. Maple 50 is doing great with 460 CEB NonCon at 2250 fps and the 500 CEB #13 at 2150 fps. POI on the 450 North Forks is not good, not in line with the CEBs?? Might try some different things with the North Forks, powder, velocity, something.

Good fun getting things ready for a hunt.

Michael