quote:

I suppose if a fellow was out in the bush with a 338, in Tanzan land, or there abouts, would not be a bad idea to stick a few of these in your back pocket!

Exactly the kind of advice needed. I'll take 60" straight 338 if my 416 is unavailable.

On the 210, the good news was that the petals hold together. Sounds like Barnes have been doing their homework. But 13" penetration is a little on the low side for a truly big animal, say a buffalo shoulder knuckle. One would want to cycle one of the 338solids into the chamber before starting anything.

On experience with lighter bullets, I don't have any. My 338 experiences were mostly with 250 NosPart in the 80s (Sierra 250s would lose the core, Speer 275 were a tad slow for 300 yard shots, so I became a Nosler man in 338) and only recently have loaded up 225TTSXs. Those took a waterbuck and reedbuck last month with predictable results: smashed shoulder bones, neck bone, dropped the animals on the spot and disappeared into the veldt with a 'hi-yo-silver! (or copper)', (I figure some on this list will remember the Lone Ranger?) Exit wounds were not large, so they probably spent quite a bit of energy scrambling the insides. I suspect that any softpoint on the market would have produced the same results with those shots (unless one might deviate/deflect from the bone in a fluke).

quote:

Come man, I can't be upsetting the AR Big Bore boys (Of which I am one of) you don't think anyone is really paying any attention to this anyway! Not but about 5 maybe 6 of us on this thread anyway.

Well, it's your thread, Michael. And even though the .338 may not be technically a "big bore", I would say its a "big enough bore."
I was always a big fan of the classic, semi-obsolete .333 Jeffery, which was a great penetrator. The British even used it in World War I to penetrate steel armor of the Jerrys! However, it had a much lower velocity than the .338, so I would predict this 250 grain solid would best the 300 grain .333 in a penetration test, and likely on the field.
I've also been a big fan of the .338 Win Mag and these tests of the 250-grain solids have made me fall in love all over again.

Macifej
Damn, wish I had thought of that? Well it's never too late I suppose! I would be happy to test anything you would like for me to, within the calibers I shoot.

I imagine had it not been for Tanzan I would still have 338 on hold and on a back burner. I have not had a 338 in the field since 2002, so it has been some time now. Always another project you know! I have had these 250 Barnes Banded for a very long time now, but just never got around to them. All tests I have done years ago in 338 and 358 were mostly just to see if the bullet breaks or not. Did not really record much data, if any, and go about my business.

So if you would like, I would be happy to play with your bullets! Send a PM and we can get going!


RIP

Most of the newer TSXs are tough and petals retain with most anything I have to shoot here, so far. Now it is going to be interesting when the 160s and 185s get in! I forgot that Monday was a holiday, no UPS Monday, so it put my delivery from Midway today. Also NonCons should be here Thursday! 2000 of them! Brass, the ones we have been playing with a few pages ago!

S&H velohexploders down to 1600 fps. I tested the 330 Brass HPs from David down to 1700 at you guys recall, petals sheared exactly as they do at 2500, just penetration less. I like the penetration too! S&H--Macifej? I assume.

Next is some 45/70 tests. I want to take that 305 brass HP I have coming and put it in 45/70 and see what happens at different velocities too. Low and high. I have to believe that a bullet such as this would enhance 45/70 beyond it's normal capabilities!

Tanzan

Absolutely! I have zero doubt in my mind if I ever take a 338 anything back to Africa to play with there will be some 250 Barnes Banded in my back pocket. I have to dig around this morning in the 338 bullet stash, but I think somewhere back there I have some 300 gr Woodleighs too if memory serves me. If so, we will test those too. Now if my theory is correct, the Woodleighs I have played with in 9.3 and 358 caliber are SUPERB, and they are FMJs! Go figure!

As for the 210 TSX, you know, I expected somewhere around 15 inches, and I was a little surprised at 11-13 depending on velocity. If you take 13" and if I am correct on my numbers we could expect from 23-26 inches penetration on animal tissue. Does not leave a lot of room for error on a really big buff. But if careful I am sure one would get his attention, my get too much attention? My rule of thumb for buffalo is 18 inches in the mix. Now, 18 inches gives us some margin for error. I have shot buffalo with bullets that gave 15-16 inches, but all would stop on the hide far side, and that is perfect broadside, no bone. A 458 caliber 500 gr Woodleigh gives 20 inches, 500 gr Swift in the 22-24 inch range, I know for a fact those are good numbers for buffalo. So I use that as somewhat of a benchmark for buffalo. I was very impressed with the 500 Nosler Partitions that 465HH was so kind to send. I am not much of a Partition fan, but I really liked the way these performed the other day, 19 inches. I have zero doubt that the big Nosler would do great!

I got thru most of the 225 gr 338s I had in 338 Winchester yesterday, today I hope to get thru with the 225s in 338 Ultra for comparison. I will post when I have both. I ran velocity very high in 338 WInchester, somewhat unexpected to be honest, and even at least one load in with the 225 Swift was a little stiff getting the bolt open. Like I said it's been a little while since playing with 338 Winchester in particular. I tried some V-N550 and it does extremely well with the 225 gr bullets. Try over 2900 fps with a 225 Swift in 338 Winchester--little hot for sure. All other 225s were in the 2850 range and good to go. Would need to drop the charge by a gr or so for the Swift. But regardless all the 225s fell into 13-14 inches with the 338 Winchester. Some producing extreme trauma in the mix, in particular the 225 Remington and 225 Woodleigh. They nearly turned inside out. With the 338 Ultra, I sure that extra velocity will turn them inside out. Report to come.

I suppose it depends on where you are with a 338 and what you are shooting as to what bullet weight to use. I played with years ago in Zim a 338 Winchester, two different bullets, very close POI at 100. 200 Nosler Ballistic tip for light critters, impala, hyena, and such. 275 Swift for anything heavy, zebra and so forth. It was a good combo and worked. No changing sights nothing. I think the 200 hit 1 inch higher at 100 than the 275 Swift. Mix and match. But my 458 Lott was always within arms reach too!

225 TSXs are coming today I hope from Midway, so I will get those in the mix too, along with the very light bullets.

I shot a 9 ft browny with a 338 Winchester in the late 90s. Using that 275 Swift at 2700 fps. At 21 yds it hammered thru both shoulders, dropped him on the spot, and bullet stuck in the far side of the hide. Funny Funny, I walked up and got just a little too close to his mouth, he took that last gasp and the teeth raked down my damn ankle! He was dead dead dead, but that was funny! Dumbass me! I do remember thinking at 21 yds and the bear looking at me that I did not have near enough gun! But as it turned out........

I don't know, I think if I was in buff country, I would be using 250s or 275 Swifts, and have some of those 250 Barnes Banded in my pocket too! Just in case. But we have not got to those yet! I also have to check my 250 gr stock, have hornady and nosler partitions, I am out of Swifts, but have some already loaded from years ago in the 338 Winchester. No barnes 250s, probably should have got some.

Glen

Yep, my thread, but reckon if someone don't like it they could kick me out! So we see what we see, I am moving forward with it anyway. And decided since I might get away with 338 on this thread, I will post the 9.3 results here too. Then after my schedule finishes with 338 and the few 45/70s I want to do, I will move into the 358 arena. Test all those again. Much like the 338s the 358s I tested years ago, no data to go along with them, either worked or didn't work. And I have a great deal of experience in the field with 358 STA and some of those bullets. So yet we will be able to make some more direct comparisons between the current mix and animal tissue. I have 358 Ultra, 358 STA, 35 Whelen, 358 Winchester. I suppose I will use 358 Ultra for the high end, and 35 Whelen for the low end. I got really bored with the 358 Winchester and have not done much with it, and to boot always wanted one in a bolt gun, so I had a stainless featherweight converted and I think 20 inch barrel. But lost interest.

Thanks guys, now all you lurkers out there, if any, like Alf sometimes, not sure if anyone actually is paying attention! Anyway, lurkers if you have field knowledge of anything we do here in the tests, please speak up, I and the rest would love to hear it! Yes, I already know that you probably did not have a tape measure on you to measure penetration and so forth, I don't carry a tape measure in the field either, but probably should have a small one to measure such things! Damn, something else to carry!

Michael

Michael,

Seriously, this is the best and most informative post that I have ever seen here on AR! You should submitt something to the major magazines...maybe the gun writers will learn something useful.

I don't have a big bore yet so I would love to see you do this with the 7mm Rem Mag and it's bullets...hint!

Take Care

Frank

quote:

Posted Jan 20, 7:23 AM Hide Post
Michael,

Seriously, this is the best and most informative post that I have ever seen here on AR! You should submitt something to the major magazines...maybe the gun writers will learn something useful.

I don't have a big bore yet so I would love to see you do this with the 7mm Rem Mag and it's bullets...hint!

Take Care

Frank

Well Frank, that sort of praise will get you a lot! But it won't get my hands wrapped around 7mm of anything! Sorry. Don't own one.

Wow, thanks Frank praise like that makes it all worth while in the end! One time a published friend of mine wanted to do a book. I agreed to co-author and do the parts about the rifles, cartridges, bullets and so forth. I sorta backed down on that, because I did not want to appear as some pompous ass know it all. As for magazine writers, same story, do not want to appear as some self proclaimed pompous ass know it all prick. Anyway, I suppose my grasp of the "written English" language comes up way too short for that anyway, hell can barely speak, don't forget 465HH and I have to have a translator for him to understand me! Nahh, I would just as soon be one of the guys, and just do the shooting! Let someone else be the self proclaimed experts they think they are. Of course there are some very good writers out there that don't appear that way, I am just speaking in general on that subject.

Informative? Yes, I think so. I think right here on this thread we share together some of the greatest knowledge out there when it comes to these matters. We are all ignorant, about many different things, but each of us are experts on some level of the things we discuss here. Bring that together? Absolutely more knowledge right here than you will ever find in a magazine, or even most books. Some of us have field experience in certain areas, some cartridge development, some bullets, some mathematics, and many other areas I can't think of. That's why I want to bring the lurkers out and get them involved too. Don't be afraid of ridicule or discussion, look what a beating I take sometimes. I am not always right, I am learning too! So we learn together! Sounds like some kind of hippie crap to me, "Let's all just be Friends" But anyway...........

Again, thanks! Leopardtracks? Interesting. I sure have seen a lot of leopard tracks in my days! Lot more tracks than damn leopards for sure. Got leopard experience Frank? I hate leopards! Despise the bastards!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Michael,

Seriously, this is the best and most informative post that I have ever seen here on AR! You should submitt something to the major magazines...maybe the gun writers will learn something useful.

I agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Anyway, I suppose my grasp of the "written English" language comes up way too short for that anyway, hell can barely speak, don't forget 465HH and I have to have a translator for him to understand me! Nahh, I would just as soon be one of the guys, and just do the shooting! Michael

Well, - I think you are doing quite well...

Michael,
Yep there are a few of us reading.
I am sure you are keeping good records and could turn this into a series of good articles for print, and/or a book.

My IWBB has 10 compartments 10" deep.
Uses flatsided thin plastic Sterilite waste baskets.
The buckets are about 8" thick of water with 2" between buckets.
1/2", 1", or 1.5" thickness of plywood or particle board can go between buckets.
The front and back walls of the buckets are the "witness cards."

I could pack the buckets with news print and soak with water.
I think I will do that.
Could alternately fill them with slaughterhouse waste, bones, hide, guts, meat ...
but then every shot would be different in target resistance.
Very inconsistent.
Like all anecdotes from the field.

Buckets of ordnance gelatin is no better than wet news print.

Your wet print penetration and wound channel descriptions are as good as it gets for predicting reliability when applying bullets to hunting.

160-grain and 185-grain .338 bullets?
Wow!
Should be interesting ...

.

Alf,

Years ago I read about HP bullets plugging with test media resulting in incorrect expansion reliability.

Michael’s testing over these past few months has focused primarily on current manufacture NonCon HP bullets vis-à-vis legacy C&C HP bullet technology and all have demonstrated reliable expansion with some shearing of petals in his test media.

This raises a question, and may or may not require a “gut feeling” response on your part, “Have current CNC manufacture NonCon HP bullets reliably overcome the prior test media plugging issue?”

Michael,

If the Big Bore guys proffer distain for your testing of bullet calibers smaller than “Big Bores” then perhaps Saeed will step in and give you your own forum…say something along the lines of “Michael458’s Bullet Testing”.

Your work is highly interesting to me. Keep up the good work!

quote:

So if you would like, I would be happy to play with your bullets! Send a PM and we can get going!

I'll see what I can dig up for you ...

RIP

If I were to do a book all you guys would read it, and proclaim what an ass wipe I am and would be some sort of know it all prick! Nahhh, I have more integrity than that. As it stands I am just doing the tests. Like them, learn from them, or if you don't like them go somewhere else, I am not trying to sell anyone anything! So I can tell anyone to kiss my,,,,,,,if they don't like it. Nothing here to sell! All free! LOL

But I can tell you this, I am cheap, a few kind words and a pat on the back and I will go the distance with you!

I would like to see you bring the IWBB back! I think the buckets full of wet print, mixed with assorted items as you describe. Shoot some of the bullets I have tested, I will send some to you, and yes, different resistance, bone, wood what have you, would be the next step up in testing I think. I can add things here, and have, like I said about the fiberboard. On occasion testing some of the expanding bullets putting a 2X4 or sometimes 2 about 4 inches inside the mix. Just to see if it would break. Now, I don't think I ever put the fiberboard in on an expanding bullet, that is far too much for any of them I think. But bone and boards and things like that would be a good test, especially followed by what I am doing here! I think?

Thanks, your experience in these matters are a great boost to what we are doing.

Alf

Yes, I have heard about this plugging up with material in the past. Most of what I have read, or heard has concerned handgun bullets. Even plugging up on heavy clothing in the winter and not expanding, something considered during winter exercises.

Safety bullets, Glasers, Black Talons and on and on and on, all are what I call "Miracle Handgun Bullets" and all are full of BS, as there is no such thing at the velocities handguns have to work in. Man, I always believed in the great Black Talon, they looked good, I thought expanded and looked wicked. I shot a cougar dead square in the front of the chest with a 230 gr Black Talon out of a 45 ACP, I dug the bullet out after 2 ft of penetration and could have loaded it up and shot it again! I gave up on miracle bullets at 800-900 fps. The best one I have found has been the Gold Dots in that velocity range.

As for rifle HPs, of course the brass NonCons are fine, none of the Copper HPs I have been working with over the last few years in .500 caliber have plugged, all have expanded, and at higher velocity sheared, I never tested a Barnes X that did not expand, all were at upper end velocities, and right off hand I can't think of any other rifle bullets HP's that I have tested. I have heard of this however, but I don't think in a rifle I have seen it, but the extent of my HP knowledge is listed above. I think I recall seeing some Barnes X in the old days that did not expand in dirt. I think what had happened is they hit on an angle and bent over the tip, no expansion. But I would not quote that, my memory is not as good as it used to be.

Jim

Yeah right, "Michael458's Bullet Testing" Forum


Well, I do see some stuff on here even more stupid than that!

LOL


Now, I have data to work on, have been shooting again this morning. If you guys want to see it I have to go sort this out, take some photos, and get it posted.

Michael

Mac

On the other computer earlier it did not load the giraffe! Wow, I did not see it. A damn giraffe is a strange thing, it's innards are not in all the right places! Big critters to, I have shot two of these. One a running gun battle with a 45/70 and thank god the 4th round finally put him out. I did not have any more cartridges left! The second was with one of my 50s and he went ten steps and fell over! Good FUn. I bet a good NONCON Hexploder what have you would have enhance my 45/70 gun battle a bit!!!!!

Yes my man, see what you have about the place and I will put them in the box!

Oh, Alf, I found my miracle Black Talon bullet!


Photos of shot up bullets next!
Michael

First before anything is posted--there are no failures with any of these bullets. I define failure of an expanding bullet if the bullet breaks apart and penetration is decreased to the level that it may not accomplish the mission set forth for it!

Now, if my mission is a prairie dog, that is quite a bit different mission as buffalo, eh? What will work on a prairie dog best, is not best for the buffalo, but very good on the prairie dog.

Different bullets for different missions!

We are going to look at a good sample of 338 caliber bullets some are better at certain missions than others for sure. Some retained more weight, some penetrated deeper, and some transfered more trauma to the target material than others! None failed to penetrate, if used in the proper manner.

Remember these things as we move along. I will try and remind you too as we go.

Almost there.

Michael

OK first up is the 225 Hornady Interlock. This is a bullet I have on hand that shoots very good in my 338 WSM. I have not tested in that, but at velocities it runs, 2700 fps or so with 225s this bullet will penetrate deeper, and most likely look a bit better at the end. We put it to the test in both 338 Winchester and 338 Ultra at fairly good velocities for the cartridges. I see my label on the 338 WInchester missing the penetration, I am sorry, it's 14 Inches for the 338 Winchester bullet, not bad for the 225 class, I dare say at 2700 fps or so, penetration would increase to 16 or so.


11 inches for the Ultra is getting a bit on the low side for me. Good pig, impala, deer bullet I would think. Probably some larger animals too, hartebeast, mule deer I suppose. But if wildebeast or zebra were on the menu, I think I would rather have a heavier bullet.

Here we see the 225 Nosler Accubond. I still have not really made my mind up about these bullets. I really like the 9.3 models. The 338s are a bit long for most of my rifles, even the Ultra it has to be seated pretty deep in the case to get in the magazine. Accuracy wise, some guns like them, some do not? I don't find an advantage to them over the regular Hornady for my use, and the Hornady is always accurate in nearly any rifle. They did transfer a good bit of trauma to the target, more than the Hornady, I will show typical and extreme of this shortly with the witness cards.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

So if you would like, I would be happy to play with your bullets! Send a PM and we can get going!

I'll see what I can dig up for you ...

Please dig hard!!!

225 Remington Bonded bullet (whatever they call it). This is an ugly bullet! Not polished up real well, little scraggly around the edges and so forth. It is very accurate in my 338 WSM however. We can see a huge difference in performance at the two different velocities. Good or bad, depends on the mission. In the 338 Ultra this is my new baboon bullet! I think it could even be slowed down some in the 338 Winchester and get a bit better penetration, if I needed penetration. As it is now, it's a great baboon exploder.


Of all the 210s-225s this bullet caused more trauma to the target material than any tested. Typical damage or trauma transfered to the 4 Inch Witness Cards looks like the ones listed below.



The two cards listed above is slightly on the low side for trauma transfer, but about average for the 338 bullets overall.

Now the 225 Remington in the 338 Winchester.

And this is in the 338 Ultra


This was extreme transfer of damage to target. I can almost imagine busting a baboon with one of these in the 338 Ultra! Just about perfection I say!

But look at that bullet, looks more like a snail trying to crawl around on the paper! It's messed up bad! Would not use this bullet on a zebra, not at that velocity! Might get lucky, but I would go with something a little tougher!

A great bullet for baboons--and smaller exploding critters!

225 Woodleigh PP SN! Damn nice looking bullet! Shoot great in the 338 WSM, good length for that magazine too. In terminal performance not much different than the Remington however. Velocity is not a friend if penetration is needed with these bullets. But, baboon busting, they are great. Impala, deer, that sort of thing. Transfers a good bit of trauma to target, not quite as much as the remington, but a good bit.

225 Swift A Frame

Hmmmm? Well, I have shot and tested a lot of Swifts in all the calibers I shoot. I don't ever think I have tested the 225s, and have no record of it, and have never used them in the field. These did well, of the 225s tested they are the deep divers. They are around 90%-91% retained weight, and most Swifts hover at 95% to 99% that I have tested, and shot animals with. Not bad, I just found it a little strange, and they really don't look like the typical A Frame? But none the less, they did well, good trauma to target, good penetration for the 225s. One thing to note, the extra velocity did not hurt the penetration of the 225 Swift, nor did it lose more weight, in fact it retained more? Now of course that could be just an anomaly too???? Just take note.

.

UPS has not brought my damn bullets yet! It is now getting past his normal run time too????? In that order from Midway is some 225 Barnes TSX. Once received I will get them loaded in the 338 Win and the Ultra and test them. That will conclude the 225s at that point.

Now below you will see a couple of 250s tested today too, both in the Ultra. I must say I was a little disappointed in the performance of one, and a little surprised in the performance of the other. 250 Hornady Interlock and a 250 Nosler Partition. I freely admit, I am not a Nosler Partition fan. Way back when I used a 250 Nosler Partition on some zebra and other things, I was not impressed with the performance. Looking back, I think maybe it was me and not the Nosler? But later I discovered the Swifts, and overall have been much more satisfied with that. This is just me. But I have always loved Hornady for lighter work. No, would not use them on heavy game, but shot a heap of critters with 250gr 358 caliber Hornadys. But today, the performance of the 250 338 Hornady was not so great, and the Nosler did great! Too much velocity for the Hornady, best down at 338 Winchester levels for sure.

Alf

Those Goodnel bullets look exactly like some I had a fellow make over here a few years ago for my .500s. Sorta a drawn up squeezed bullet of sorts? Looks damn near exactly like that. They did not expand or do anything. With that nose profile I could not keep them in the box either. This fellow got a bit pissed with me because I did not use them on a trip to Africa. In fact he told me, don't call him anymore!! I had to reply back that with all the different variety of bullets--probably 10 or more--he only had a 20% success rate in the test medium. No way I can go to the field and take chances like that! Not going to! So we parted ways!

Giraffe, yes they are something eh? The one I shot with the 45/70, hunting with a tracker we have known for years. It was late in the evening, an hour before dark. He stood around, shaking his head and asked my guy "Why did he do that this time of day?" Of course his job was just getting started, a long night for my boy skinning and dealing with that giraffe.

They are tough, I really was surprised at how tough they are!

Fortunately I did not have to deal with skinning and such, if I had to do it, I would not be shooting them either!

Excellent photos, thanks for sending the bullet photos and the giraffes. Which one is you? Is that you next to the giraffe with the goofy hat on?? LOL

Michael

OK OK back to work here. Last bullet for the day, always a favorite of mine, 275 Swift A Frame.

Now I have the test bullet on the left, and some animal bullets on the right. Does anyone recall that I mentioned something about paying attention to IMPACT VELOCITIES in the field. Lot of difference in impact velocity at 20-50-150 and 250 yds! In the field, we don't always have an animal stand exactly at our test range so that he takes the impact we tested eh?

Now some of you are going to see a very high velocity for the 275 Swift in a 338 Win Mag. THis is a correct velocity. This was a special built rifle, back in my younger and more stupid days, I had a 28 inch barrel on this monster, and I was playing around with getting the most out of 338 Winchester. I would have to look up the load, but it was a heavy compressed load of IMR 4831, I am telling you that not even 1/10th of a grain more would have went in the case, and I had to be careful for a powder bulge! Don't ask the pressures! None of us really want to know! But it worked until I got sick of toting it around!




Well boys, that's all I have for today! Discussions are open!
Michael

.

quote:

What do mean by Goofy Hat

That really is a very nice hat Alf! I was just jealous and pissed off because I don't have one!


Where in the RSA? My wife is from Pretoria. I am still waiting on my invite to the bar? I was just hacking on you about the hat!

Michael

.

Hello Michael,

How on earth can you hate Leopards? I think that the Leopard is the worlds greatest hunting trophy and the most beautiful one as well.
On second thought, you might hate them if you sat in a blind for 14 nights straight and didn't get one!

I love Leopards, I read everything I can find on them and I even assisted with research on Leopard status in an area in Zimbabwe this past year.

I did kill one in Zimbabwe in 2006 so please don't think that I am a tree hugger or anything like that...I am a hunter!

As for your writing style, PLEASE don't put yourself down, I like your style! You speak every man's language and not some fancy, snooty, "high class", BS.
More importantly, your results are not based on your "opinion on what should work" like so many of the so-called "experts" and gun-shop commando's. Your results are based on real-life scientific-type experiments and the results are plain to see in black and white...how can anyone argue with your results...or with you for that matter?

Michael, seriously, you have totally impressed this city boy!!

You are the man!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Posted Jan 20, 7:23 AM Hide Post
Michael,

Seriously, this is the best and most informative post that I have ever seen here on AR! You should submitt something to the major magazines...maybe the gun writers will learn something useful.

I don't have a big bore yet so I would love to see you do this with the 7mm Rem Mag and it's bullets...hint!

Take Care

Frank

Well Frank, that sort of praise will get you a lot! But it won't get my hands wrapped around 7mm of anything! Sorry. Don't own one.

Wow, thanks Frank praise like that makes it all worth while in the end! One time a published friend of mine wanted to do a book. I agreed to co-author and do the parts about the rifles, cartridges, bullets and so forth. I sorta backed down on that, because I did not want to appear as some pompous ass know it all. As for magazine writers, same story, do not want to appear as some self proclaimed pompous ass know it all prick. Anyway, I suppose my grasp of the "written English" language comes up way too short for that anyway, hell can barely speak, don't forget 465HH and I have to have a translator for him to understand me! Nahh, I would just as soon be one of the guys, and just do the shooting! Let someone else be the self proclaimed experts they think they are. Of course there are some very good writers out there that don't appear that way, I am just speaking in general on that subject.

Informative? Yes, I think so. I think right here on this thread we share together some of the greatest knowledge out there when it comes to these matters. We are all ignorant, about many different things, but each of us are experts on some level of the things we discuss here. Bring that together? Absolutely more knowledge right here than you will ever find in a magazine, or even most books. Some of us have field experience in certain areas, some cartridge development, some bullets, some mathematics, and many other areas I can't think of. That's why I want to bring the lurkers out and get them involved too. Don't be afraid of ridicule or discussion, look what a beating I take sometimes. I am not always right, I am learning too! So we learn together! Sounds like some kind of hippie crap to me, "Let's all just be Friends" But anyway...........

Again, thanks! Leopardtracks? Interesting. I sure have seen a lot of leopard tracks in my days! Lot more tracks than damn leopards for sure. Got leopard experience Frank? I hate leopards! Despise the bastards!

Michael

Alf

Damn good show my man! Thanks for the tour on the hats! You did not have to tell me they would not fit your head anymore, I already knew your head was "fat".

I cleaned nearly a truck load of things about 6 months ago out of the "Lab". Things I had not used or even seen in 20 yrs! Yes, we tend to hold on to things like that. Oh, no I did not throw them out, just moved them back to storage on the range!

I had to look twice at the pig shot, good thing you didn't have sunglasses on too, would have been hard to tell who was who? Just funning of course. Good kudu, but never really seen a bad one! Have to tell you, the 275 Swift above showing from a kudu, I can't remember shooting a kudu with that? I know I must have, but beginning to forget these things, have to look at my photos I suppose?

Thanks Alf, nice photos! Seriously now, thanks!

OK, UPS was late, my brown bus man did come. No Midway order??????? However the NONCONS made the compound!!!! Yippie!


Gentleman, there before you is a total of 2000 NonCon brass HP bullets, in 416-458-and .500 caliber! Did you think I was kidding? Not me!

I thought about dumping them all out there in the floor, mixing them up together, getting NAKED and rolling in them, like a dog on a bone!!! Serious, for real! But I could not find anyone to take the photos. If I can get someone to take the photos I will go get naked and post them quickly for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go find someone.

Michael

Hey Frank

I am busy looking for someone to take photos of me naked rolling in the bullets, but will take time to answer your question of "WHY MICHAEL HATES LEOPARDS". I have had a very difficult time with leopards. I hate a leopard blind, I hate sitting for leopard. I have spent over 70 nights in a damn leopard blind! Many many many of those nights some time ago, from 4 pm until 7 am the next morning!!!!!! I hate leopards! There at the end of my leopard hunting career I refused to sit past 9 pm, in at 4 out at 9. About all I could take. Then later in Zim, could not sit after dark, suited me just fine! The hell with a leopard! Finally in 2005 in Tanzania I got one just before dark, 10 minutes later it was dark. That was the end of my leopard hunting career. Michael really does not have the patience for that! Even hunted one time for 14 days with dogs--no leopard. My hunting partner shot a leopard his first hunting day in Africa! First time out! I really don't like him anymore either! That was in 1999! I still pretty pissed off at that! Big leopard too, I figure that was my leopard! Anyway, I hate leopards! Made me miserable for so long, but not anymore, got mine, been there, no more!

I appreciate the support by the way! And damn glad to have you join us! NOw I shot that spotted devil of mine with a Winchester M70 416 Remington and 340 gr Woodleigh PP at 2530 fps. He fell, went about 5 yds and stone cold!

What did you shoot yours with?

Gun Shop Commandos, HEH, yes I know them well! So does DWright out west!

Thanks Frank!

Now I must go see someone about taking some photos, will get them posted as soon as I can!
Michael

Michael,

That's some funny shit! Now, I do wish you luck in finding someone to take that picture!!

I shot mine with my Win M70 in 7mm Rem Mag using Federal 160gr Accubonds, which I think shoot at about 2,950 fps out of my 26" Hart barrel. One shot at 97 yards and he just fell over dead out of the tree. The bullet broke the upper/bicep bone (he was crouched-down) went through the lungs and exited the off side with a nickle-sized exit hole.

I know what you mean sitting in the blind. It sucks, and took me two hunts to finally get mine. I have to saay that seeing him in the tree made it all worth it.

YEA, MICHAEL POST THEM PHOTO'S!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I thought about dumping them all out there in the floor, mixing them up together, getting NAKED and rolling in them, like a dog on a bone!!! Serious, for real! But I could not find anyone to take the photos. If I can get someone to take the photos I will go get naked and post them quickly for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go find someone.

Michael

Bastard ... where are the wipes ... bloody coffee everywhere! Woodies on the way early next week, can't get out of holiday mode.
Cheers...
Con
PS: Why didn't she who must be obeyed offer to take the photos? She sick of your playing in the attic too?!

Ok, OK, that's it! Michael, you've just given me a vision I'd really like to erase from my mind. I think we may all apreciate a pic of a lovely lady rolling around naked in a big pile of gold colored bullet's, but. . . . . . . Shit; gotta go put a metal bucket over my head, and beat it with a framing hammer. . . . . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I thought about dumping them all out there in the floor, mixing them up together, getting NAKED and rolling in them, like a dog on a bone!!! Serious, for real! But I could not find anyone to take the photos. If I can get someone to take the photos I will go get naked and post them quickly for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go find someone.

Michael

Michael - you are f...... crazy

Frank

7mm Mag! Don't care much for those, but reckon that would slap a leopard very well, along with many many other things too! Most of those 225s from the 338 would do a jam up job for that too. Need a fast opening bullet, transfers a great deal of trauma, and don't have to had a deep diver for that work.

Bullet depends on the mission! It seems you chose well.

I shot a bunch of things with that 416 and the 340 Woodleigh that year. I was so impressed with the bullet that in my 416 B&M I did not care if there was another bullet out there or not, that 340 Woodliegh was the thin skinned critter ticket.

Now I am pretty convinced to work with some of these NonCons. The best of both worlds it seems. Extreme trauma, hitting hard up front, and all the penetration you could want on anything! I just don't have any big shoots planned to use them on soon.


Had you boys going for awhile eh?

Well have to admit that was funny! She the Boss says I don't look too bad naked? Don't know what ya'll was worried about? I just thought it would show off the bullets some. You know how you always see the photos of the bikini girls standing next to the new car? Same concept! Oh well, I guess I will let that thought pass, seems that would be a quick way to kill this thread!

I can't believe the Midway order was not on that truck yesterday! Should have been? Have to go check that out and see where those bullets are.

My buddy David was over yesterday and gave a hand in the test work yesterday. He drops by weekly and shoots his 50 Super Shorts, has two of them, Ruger #1 and a Win M70. We put a 350 Speer .500 in the mix, he had them running low at 1950 fps and they hit like hammers, hold together, big wide mushroom, looked very good. Penetration short, but expected at 10 inches.

Witness Cards? Been thinking about those. For expanders there is not much of a reason to use the Witness cards past the 8 inches--placing one inside at 4 and the other at 8. Just past the 8 most of the expanders have started to slow and are just punching a hole at that point. The ones at 4 and 8 show where trauma starts and starts to slow at 8. FYI, all of these bullets start to open up after an inch or 2 in the mix. Very easy to see the channel start to open up with expansion. Some like the Woodleigh and Remington 338s you can see it at 1/2-1 inch in. Barnes and Swifts you see at 1-1.5 inches in. By the time it gets to 4 inches you can see how much trauma is being placed on the Witness Cards. In the bigger bore rifles we can still see trauma being inflicted to the cards up to 12 inches. I think small bores I use a card at 4 and 8, bigger bores at 4-8-12.

Michael

Guys, it's safe now, you can return to the thread! I was just kidding about getting naked and rolling in the bullets, like a dog on a bone. Really, just kidding. No photos, so you can feel safe to return to the thread now, and we can talk bullets!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Guys, it's safe now, you can return to the thread! I was just kidding about getting naked and rolling in the bullets, like a dog on a bone. Really, just kidding. No photos, so you can feel safe to return to the thread now, and we can talk bullets!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Guys, it's safe now, you can return to the thread! I was just kidding about getting naked and rolling in the bullets, like a dog on a bone. Really, just kidding. No photos, so you can feel safe to return to the thread now, and we can talk bullets!

Michael

Good thing, because you had me really worried about your sanity. Too much sake again?

My leopard was shot 30 minutes after we entered the first blind and was killed at 4:30 in the afternoon. Shot with a 375 H&H with an old 270 grain Partition. Never moved an inch as it was dead when it hit the ground. This conclusively proves that the 375 H&H is not only a better leopard killer than the 416 but also that it brings big male leopards to the bait better.

465H&H