quote:

Jeffeosso had an interesting idea of shooting the aluminum HVSP bullets at 1,200 fps or nominal wheel gun velocities to see what the affects would be in terms of would channel and penetration.

Also a milk jug filled with water and ballistic gelatin to mimic what the affects would be on game and humans.

I wager these aluminum HVSP bullets to be more deadly on humans than any conventional bullet.

Nothing to sneeze at.

I agree! That would be very interesting.
If you have a 100 grain bullet, regardless of caliber, traveling at 1200 fps, you have 320 ft-lbs of KE. In other words, the same ballpark as the so-called service handgun cartridges. A 138 grain bullet at the same speed would have 441 ft-lbs of energy, similar to a standard .357 Magnum load.

I would guess that the aluminum bullet's wound channel wouldn't be like the typical jacketed hollowpoint bullet, but would have a larger and more consistent wound. As long as it remained stable, of course.
I used this formula from Rathcoombe's page which attempts to estimate cavitation of a FN bullet:

CAV(FN) (inches) = Impact Velocity (fps) x Meplat Diameter (inches) / 225 - 0.725

So for a .35 meplat of a .500" bullet, the estimated cavitation would be 1200 x 0.35 / 225 - 0.725, or about 1.14 inches. Good stuff, if true!

The only thing that halfway bothers me is the low density of aluminum as opposed to brass, copper, and lead alloy. I'm reminded of what Newton said about impact depth being dependent on the projectile's density, the target's density, and the bullet length. I could have easily taken this out of context, however.

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

Just make sure to count them to make sure you did not get an accidental suppository

quote:

Hell, I am crazy enough to toss all mine in the floor and get naked and roll in them! Still looking for that photo so I can post it?

If it was me, I would only be concerned if my wife walked in and I quickly covered up my bullets.

I just grab her and throw her on the pile with me!!!!!!! YIPPPIEE

quote:

Originally posted by 8gauge:
Hi just wanted to tell u i learned allot of info from your testing. I am going to be doing some tests on 4 and 8 gauge penetration. I have been doing allot of 8 bore loading and testing. only penetration so far has been on bull American buff 2300lbs clean though @ the shoulder. 2nd also round ball went 4 1/2 ft left front to right rear ribs boiler room trapped by the hide minor deformation, and lost 15 gn. Smokeless and black load 875gn ball 1650fps. On my 1450gn conical @ 1400fps instead of a rn what do you think would be opt meplat. sorry for way off your topic.

Hi 8gauge! Welcome to our little thread! Glad you joined in.

JHC man, not sure a meplat matters on what you are shooting????? I have no experience with something that big in diameter. We sometimes run into funny things where logical thinking does not always click in. But just from my experience with "small bores" 416-.510, I would still have to go with 65% meplat of caliber for a starting place. Now, also note according to Whitworth and JWP475, both with far more experience than I in this arena, state that 80% meplat of diameter is getting close to the UPPER END of meplat size where penetration will actually begin to drop.

Again, this is what I think only based on such a wide variety of bullets I have been testing, hopefully soon I can do a real test on meplat size with 465HH and we get to the bottom of it once and for all.

Try 65%-70% meplat of caliber and see how it does!

Michael

Good Morning Gentlemen! Well I had enough medium left unscathed to be able to test the 250 gr Barnes TSX's this morning, in 338 Winchester, and with the two powders suggested. Take a look, here's what I got, and while velocity was a huge difference, it really did not matter all that much. Both bullets did very well. Witness card showed excellent transfer of trauma, and I only used for one bullet at 4 and 8 inches, got confused and it was shot with the low velocity load!

Now in addition I photographed some 45 ACP bullets that I shot a few years ago! Now recorded data was next to nothing on most of these. I was fooling around, all of them were shot at 5 yds as I recall, and I was not even interested enough to record penetration. From memory only, most of these you are looking at 5-8 inches of penetration. I do have recorded some FMJ loads from long ago, 45 acp 230 FMJ at 15 inches. 9 mm Ball was at 11 inches. Most 38 specials fall stop at 4-5 inches of penetration.




Michael

Thank you Michael.
We'll settle for 18" penetration. Shouldn't be any problem with penetration in a pissed-off beastie. Actually, said beastie shouldn't be pissed off for long if well-hit with one of those.

Would you be able to describe your pressure signs and any peculiarities of your chamber? 69 grains was a little hotter than capoward Jim receommend thru his Quickload settings at 65gr. I might plan to load up at 67 and then test in Nyati land. We can always download if 'hot' or over 2700fps, but its harder to upload without access to more powder.

As you can see from my comment

quote:

We can always download if 'hot' or over 2700fps

I deal with pressure in a commonsense sort of way. If 50 years of use and testing shows a calibre at a max energy level of around 3900-4000 foot lbs., then I look for loads that produce that, knowing that the physics in a 'normal' chamber and bore should reach such levels without undue stress. This assumes a reasonable bullet to bore fit, and reasonable powder to capacity fit, of course. And if there are pressure signs, then of course, one backs off. H-4350 looks like a winner, with whatever final load.

Our 225 TTSXs had 69grains of R-17, supposedly like IMR 4350, but with a rounder pressure peak to produce 50+fps increases in velocity. We will test them further next summer to see if we will 'hold' or maybe drop a grain. Some of the Quickload suggestions were pointing to 67.5 and we don't want to unnecessarily push beyond 2800fps in that calibre.

Tanzan

With the 250 Barnes TSX 338 Winchester 69/H-4350, right at the top of bolt lift, just before it got a little scratchy, slightly heavy lift. Primers Flat and some primer flow. Here, I would back down to 68 grs and not be too concerned. There, maybe 67 grs and I think you would be good to go. H-4831 I would not even worry with, cannot get enough in the case to get velocity up to where it needs to be with the 250s.

With all the 225s I used either 70/V-N550 and 72/IMR 4350, vast majority of those were hitting 2850-2885. No pressure issues.

Some of my data from 2004 RL 22 and RL 19 looked average, to good with the 250s also. Giving 2675 fps or so.

I think that gives you about every decent 338 caliber bullet on the market tested! Probably left out a few, but not too many! Well, let's say decent that was easy available to me, or I already had on hand anyway! NorthForks are great, but very nearly in performance the same as a Swift. Deep divers are going to be the Barnes and the Swifts.

Michael

Michael,
Wow!!! A little pressure sign is all! Just ran a QL of your 69.0gr H4350 loading and it indicates 73841 psi!

Tansan,
Here’s a QL quick read from 65gr – 69gr loadings:
338 WinMag
24.0” Barrel
Hodgdon H4350 Propellant
Barnes 250gr TSX Bullet
Usable Case Capacity: 71.0grs
SAAMI Pmax: 62366 psi
CW: 65.0, 2665fps, 3944ft-lbs, 60405 psi
CW: 65.6, 2688fps, 4012ft-lbs, 62235 psi
CW: 65.7, 2692fps, 4023ft-lbs, 62545 psi
CW: 66.0, 2703fps, 4057ft-lbs, 63491 psi
CW: 67.0, 2741fps, 4171ft-lbs, 66751 psi
CW: 68.0, 2779fps, 4286ft-lbs, 70201 psi
CW: 69.0, 2816fps, 4403ft-lbs, 73841 psi

Again, these are only a guideline.

I was thinking that maybe around 1200fps teh petals stay on .. and it opens ... might be interesting to put a beamer in the hands of momma ... that is, light bullet, reasonably fast, and LOW recoil . starting with a .452!

Some misconceptions exist by most hunters, as we know far less than medical doctors that studied wounding mechanisms. Ignorance is understandable when we were not taught or shown (no shame), but being pigheaded and argumentative against our better knowledge is not getting us anywhere. Seeing that Gerard is on about the damage caused by an Impala Solid FN, as if it tumbled, and refuting the straight-line penetration, it is perhaps appropriate to repeat the point that Alf has made so many times. If a bullet hits tissue of predominantly water-like viscosity, the tissue literally explodes (for example, a high velocity bullet hitting the liver or brain, as it causes a massive disruption due to the inability of the tissue to withstand the sudden stretch as the bullet forces the incompressable tissue aside. Both the liver and the brain tissue have little cohesion, so it shears and blows apart. Liver tissue is not like muscle tissue and behaves differently when hit. Even if Alf has to be ignored on this issue, let us see what Rinker has to say.

Here is an extract from a posting from Alf - Posted 05 June 2006 09:04

"For purposes of discussion I will use the much simplified classification of tissues based on biomechanical behaviour as proposed by Robert Rinker. (Rinker RA: Understanding firearms ballistics 5th edition 2004 Mulberry house publishing.)

Rinker defines tissues as having biomechanical properties which are:

1. Primary water like (brain, liver and kidney)
2. Primary visco-elastic (Muscle, lung)
3. Primary cohesive. (Bone, tendon and cartilage)

This rough classification fits in well with ballitics findings in practise. If a high velocity projectile is shot through each of these tissue types the energy transfer effect would result in widely varying degree of damage. Actually temporary cavitation phenomena. In brain, liver and kidney we would see a velocity dependent effect. The higher the impact velocity the bigger the damage just like Roy Weatherby's milk jug full of water advertisement."


Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Good Morning Gentlemen! Well I had enough medium left unscathed to be able to test the 250 gr Barnes TSX's this morning, in 338 Winchester, and with the two powders suggested. Take a look, here's what I got, and while velocity was a huge difference, it really did not matter all that much. Both bullets did very well. Witness card showed excellent transfer of trauma, and I only used for one bullet at 4 and 8 inches, got confused and it was shot with the low velocity load!

The 225 TSX penetrated about the same as the 250 if I remeber correctly, making the 225 the better choice

Back in the early 80's i used to load Nosler NP 250 in a 338WM, actually a couple of 338WMs ago. We used 69gr of IMR 4350, in Africa. As a new reloader I noticed that the 'meplat' of the primer grew a little but didn't reach the edges and there was still something round left on the primer. I wasn't worried at the time because we had a bunch of Czech factory rounds for another rifle that flattened the whole way out to the pocket edge. Looked like two-toned case heads after firing. One primer even slipped out of the case on extraction. Now those were 'hot' loads and my 69 gr. of IMR in the 338WM weren't even close. So I thought I knew what a flattened primer was.

Well, that was some time ago and I've gotten conservative over the years. I would prefer not seeing a noticeable enlargement of the primer's meplat. A little is OK, but not over halfway to the primer pocket edge. Of course, that would be being captive in reloading to the consistency of the primer metal, and is not a true gauge of pressure or safety. But it is an indicator.

While on primers, I've got to locate some out in California where me son will assemble the rounds when passing thru. I'm on the other side of the world. Another friend just told me he found some CCI LR Magnum. Are there any comments on those? I had hoped to find some Fed Gold Medal 215match, but apparently
'all the gold in California, is in a bank in the middle of Beverly Hills, in somebody else's name."
(I'm thinking that people on this list need to know that that was a song quote.) :-)
But if I can't find Fed GM215m, then what should I expect from CCI LR Magnum these days?

blessings and thanks to all.

For JWP

I noticed the same thing about penetration, though the 225s were 15 and 18, these were 17 and 18. And the 225 got 18 by dropping a petal, so the 250s are still better in this medium.

At this point we should remember that these are only single tests in a comparable but not equal medium. Physics tells me that those 250s have a little more (10%) up their sleeve than the 225s. I wouldn't feel endangered to fire either at a buffalo as long as I could call the shot or pass, as the case may be. (But I like my 416, for that. The 338 was an absolutely superb antelope gun. Was? Is!)

Oh, and a note on capoward Jim's helpful quickload materials.

If Michael's chonograph is a good one, and if only registering 2700fps with 69gr in his rifle, then it is probably not generating 73k psi. With the pressure signs and velocity, I would guess 63-67k. But still on the hot side for me. I'd rather have 2700fps and no pressure signs. By the way, SAAMI is 64k for the 338WM, though the Euro equivalent is around 62k and QL has apparently followed suit.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
By the way, SAAMI is 64k for the 338WM, though the Euro equivalent is around 62k and QL has apparently followed suit.

Tanzan,

Do you have a ready reference for this change? No attempt at an argument here…just trying to assure that I have the latest reference materials.

Reason I ask is that I purchased the SAAMI disc (2007) and updates (which covered all SAAMI cartridges not contained on the disc; i.e., the WSMs, WSSMs, SAUMs, 8mm RemMag, 416 RemMag, etc.) about 14 months ago. I just did a quick look of the disc and paper update materials but don’t find a revision to the 338WinMag 62K pressure level.

My take though - 62K psi vs. 64K psi - with current manufacture brass from a major manufacturer, not at or nearing its end-of-life, there should be hazardous issue at either pressure level.

Also, no issue with Michael’s chronograph readings vis-à-vis my copy of QL. I’m totally aware that QL is a reference tool only and not absolute gospel.

Thanks,

As we’ve been in the world of NonCons in this thread with a heavy discussion of the practicality of the Aluminum Solid bullets yesterday, I thought perhaps it deserved a comparison to the traditional Copper Solid bullets and how they might compare in a hunting scenario.

Towards that endeavor, I thought a comparison of the prospective 138gr .500 SST FN Shredder Aluminum Solid to its identically shaped 450gr .500 SST FN Shredder Copper Solid bullet in a duel weapon scenario would be interesting…so here it is.

First off, I noticed that my finger/eye dyslexia prevailed and I incorrectly noted the pressure level by 1K psi for the 138gr Shredder bullet…I’ve correct it in this comparison.

So here’s the basic scenario:
Aluminum data shown in RED
Copper data shown in BLUE
QuickLOAD (QL) for cartridge performance
QuickTARGET (QT) for range performance
QT Scenario: Typical Midwest/Southeastern USA summer day – 100º temperature with 80% humidity

1st Comparison – Handgun:
Model S&W 500 Revolver - Standard Compensator – with 8.375” barrel
500 S&W Magnum cartridge
SAAMI Pmax: 61931 psi
Fitted with Pistol Scope
Height of Line of Sight Above Bore: 1.97”
1st Up:
138gr .500 SST FN Shredder Aluminum Solid bullet
Hodgdon HS-6 Propellant
UCC: 40.9grs, CW: 34.0grs = 2652fps & 2156ft-lbs @ 61534 psi
(Filling/L.R.: 91.0% and 100.0% Propellant Burnt)
Zero Range: 50yds
Peak to Line of Sight (PLS): +0.28” @ 72yds
Performance @ PLS = 1814fps & 1426ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PLS: +2.28”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PLS = 1.57”
Point Blank Index (PBI): 126yds
Performance @ PBI = 1448fps & 1138ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBI: -1.51”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBI = 5.40”
Point Blank Range (PBR) Zero: 136yds
Performance @ PBR = 1385fps & 1088ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBR: -2.38”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBR = 5.92”
Maximum Trajectory of 6” (MT6): 165yds
Performance @ MT6 = 1238fps & 973ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ MT6: -5.72”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ MT6 = 8.95”
2nd Up:
450gr .500 SST FN Shredder Copper Solid bullet
Hodgdon Lil’Gun Propellant
UCC: 40.9grs, CW: 38.0grs = 1626fps & 2642ft-lbs @ 61420 psi
(Filling/L.R.: 96.3% and 100.0% Propellant Burnt)
Zero Range: 75yds
Peak to Line of Sight (PLS): +0.27” @ 55yds
Performance @ PLS = 1509fps & 2486ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PLS: +2.27”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PLS = 0.22”
Point Blank Index (PBI): 104yds
Performance @ PBI = 1432fps & 2360ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBI: -1.57”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBI = 5.40”
Point Blank Range (PBR) Zero: 113yds
Performance @ PBR = 1407fps & 2318ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBR: -2.35”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBR = 1.03”
Maximum Trajectory of 6” (MT6): 141yds
Performance @ MT6 = 1369fps & 2255ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ MT6: -5.73”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ MT6 = 2.08”
Looking at the combination of trajectory and drift it appears that 140yds is the practical maximum for either bullet; so here is a static range comparison:
@ 100yds
Performance = 1615fps & 1270ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -5.73”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 3.19”
Performance = 1432fps & 2360ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -1.36”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 0.98”
@140yds.
Performance = 1364fps & 1072ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -5.73”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 6.63”
Performance = 1369fps & 2255ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -5.60”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 2.05”

2st Comparison – Bolt Rifle:
Model 70 Winchester – WSSM action – with 18.0” barrel
50 B&M SS cartridge
SAAMI Pmax: 64542 psi [derived from WSSM rating]
Fitted with Rifle Scope
Height of Line of Sight Above Bore: 1.97”
1st Up:
138gr .500 SST FN Shredder Aluminum Solid bullet
Hodgdon HS-6 Propellant
UCC: 49.1grs, CW: 39.5grs = 3149fps & 3039ft-lbs @ 63993 psi
(Filling/L.R.: 88.1% and 100.0% Propellant Burnt)
Zero Range: 100yds
Peak to Line of Sight (PLS): +0.20” @ 83yds
Performance @ PLS = 2026fps & 2026ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PLS: +2.20”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PLS = 1.57”
Point Blank Index (PBI): 139yds
Performance @ PBI = 1583fps & 1583ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBI: -1.52”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBI = 5.40”
Point Blank Range (PBR) Zero: 152yds
Performance @ PBR = 1475fps & 1475ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBR: -2.40”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBR = 6.5”
Maximum Trajectory of 6” (MT6): 182yds
Performance @ MT6 = 1319fps & 1320ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ MT6: -5.73”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ MT6 = 9.74”
2nd Up:
450gr .500 SST FN Shredder Copper Solid bullet
Hodgdon Lil’Gun Propellant
UCC: 49.1grs, CW: 43.8grs = 1946fps & 3785ft-lbs @ 64019 psi
(Filling/L.R.: 93.0% and 100.0% Propellant Burnt)
Zero Range: 100yds
Peak to Line of Sight (PLS): +0.55” @ 69yds
Performance @ PLS = 1790fps & 3402ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PLS: +2.27”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PLS = 0.52”
Point Blank Index (PBI): 129yds
Performance @ PBI = 1655fps & 3160ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBI: -1.55”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBI = 1.60”
Point Blank Range (PBR) Zero: 134yds
Performance @ PBR = 1648fps & 3132ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ PBR: -1.92”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ PBR = 1.72”
Maximum Trajectory of 6” (MT6): 141yds
Performance @ MT6 = 1640fps & 3117ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight @ MT6: -5.73”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection @ MT6 = 1.93”
Looking at the combination of trajectory and drift it appears that 140yds is the practical maximum for either bullet; so here is a static range comparison:
@ 100yds
Performance = 1870fps & 1871ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: 0.0”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 2.64”
Performance = 1730fps & 3274ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -1.36”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 1.03”
@140yds.
Performance = 1571fps & 1571ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -1.59”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 5.51”
Performance = 1633fps & 3103ft-lbs
Trajectory Height vs. Line of Sight: -5.60”
5.0 Mph Wind Deflection = 1.90”

Sorry this was so long. Looks like from a trajectory/wind drift scenario that the Aluminum bullet might need to be kept to 130yds.

And again remember; QL and QT are just electronic software simulations not actual field results And there currently are no 138gr .500 SST FN Shredder Aluminum Solid bullets.

The below attempts to grossly classify ratehr than state the state of matter.

and all that STUFF moves around.. read townsen, in his famous pig shooting experiments .. that drugged animals responded differently than aggitated ones ..
In other other .. EVERY animal is different, and every STATE is different .. which means you BASELINE the tests

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Some misconceptions exist by most hunters, as we know far less than medical doctors that studied wounding mechanisms. Ignorance is understandable when we were not taught or shown (no shame), but being pigheaded and argumentative against our better knowledge is not getting us anywhere. Seeing that Gerard is on about the damage caused by an Impala Solid FN, as if it tumbled, and refuting the straight-line penetration, it is perhaps appropriate to repeat the point that Alf has made so many times. If a bullet hits tissue of predominantly water-like viscosity, the tissue literally explodes (for example, a high velocity bullet hitting the liver or brain, as it causes a massive disruption due to the inability of the tissue to withstand the sudden stretch as the bullet forces the incompressable tissue aside. Both the liver and the brain tissue have little cohesion, so it shears and blows apart. Liver tissue is not like muscle tissue and behaves differently when hit. Even if Alf has to be ignored on this issue, let us see what Rinker has to say.

Here is an extract from a posting from Alf - Posted 05 June 2006 09:04

"For purposes of discussion I will use the much simplified classification of tissues based on biomechanical behaviour as proposed by Robert Rinker. (Rinker RA: Understanding firearms ballistics 5th edition 2004 Mulberry house publishing.)

Rinker defines tissues as having biomechanical properties which are:

1. Primary water like (brain, liver and kidney)
2. Primary visco-elastic (Muscle, lung)
3. Primary cohesive. (Bone, tendon and cartilage)

This rough classification fits in well with ballitics findings in practise. If a high velocity projectile is shot through each of these tissue types the energy transfer effect would result in widely varying degree of damage. Actually temporary cavitation phenomena. In brain, liver and kidney we would see a velocity dependent effect. The higher the impact velocity the bigger the damage just like Roy Weatherby's milk jug full of water advertisement."


Warrior

JWP

In the 338 Winchester the 225 TSX went 15 inches. Impacting at 2753 fps. The 250 TSX did 17 and 18 inches. I think it depends on the mission, it would with me. If I was hunting in serious buffalo country then I might choose the 250 TSX. But--If I had 4-5 rounds of the Barnes Banded SOlids, I would not be the least concerned carrying the 225 TSX. I think a good broadside shot with either is going to get to the vitals, with the edge going to the 250 TSX which would most likely pass through. No doubt of what the 250 Barnes Banded would do! I could easy go either way with them, and today the Barnes would be my choice for the big antelopes. 225 X would give a little flatter trajectory maybe.

Tanzan

I used 69 gr of IMR 4350 in 338 Winchester for years. The loads I tested in the 250 Swift in 338 were 69/IMR 4350, loaded in 1999! 69/IRM 4350 has always been very safe, and always dependent at or around 2650 fps in all the 250s that I used to load in 338 Winchester.

Jim

I think it might be possible that I hit 70000 with the H4350 load, which sounds like a lot and it is over time. I have tested many loads that hit between 70000 and 75000 psi with the pressure trace, and although the cases showed it from measurements and from indicators they really were not that ugly an affair. When it starts to get real UGLY is at 80000-85000 psi! Those are not nice at all! When testing, you don't do but one of those and you quit immediately! I ran some loads fairly steady in 416 Remington at 70000 psi, but I did discontinue that, dropped the load by 1 gr of powder, and it dropped below 65000 psi. I never experienced sticky bolts, primers were pretty flat however.

Just a couple of years ago I hooked up the pressure trace to all the B&Ms. Before then I had just done the measurements on the cases. I had done very well with everything, 50-458-50SS-all were right there, top loads at 60000 psi, some up to 64000 psi, near perfect. All the 350 or less weights in 416 B&M were very good, 60000 or so. But with the 400s I was pushing past upper limits with a couple of loads hitting 72000 psi. No heavy bolt, slick as could be, measurements were at the top end, but all indicators were good. Repeated several times, same story, I ended up dropping those to 62000 psi, but changed from using AA 2520 to WW 748 to get best results with the 400s. Low 70s don't get too ugly with todays brass and a good Winchester, of course you don't want to be there, but it's not terribly unsafe done in moderation. Or in a few rounds for testing. But everyday use, yes, I dropped it down and revised the numbers.

One does not need more than 2250-2300 fps with a 400 gr bullet anyway in 416. I like the 350s at 2400-2450 and get 57000 to 64000 psi depending on the bullet. I now run the 400s at 61000 and 62000 depending on the bullet again.

Michael

Jim

By the way, I don't know what you are doing with your quickload that I am not, but your numbers are very very close to reality from what I have seen. Mine are not, close, ok for me to work with, but not near as close as what you have. I am probably not running mine right or I am missing something somewhere. Of course I think I know you good enough that YOU READ THE DAMN BOOK DIDN't YOU??????? Man, I can't read the book!

RTB!!!! Read The Book!

Anyway, I am not kidding, you the "QuickLoad Man"! My QuickLoad Hero! Good numbers!

Michael

David and JD's "Shredder" is a very interesting bullet, sure peeked my interest a few years ago. I keep learning about it, and have used it some in the 50 B&M at velocities up to 2180 fps at the muzzle on buffalo. Now it did a good job, and it killed the hell out of them, but it just did not hammer them. Reactions on the animals no different than animals I have hit with 458 WInchester or Lott. I had hoped for more. But this concept is very velocity dependent, the more the better. Designed to move fluid away from the bullet, and it does this, but more velocity helps it do this a lot better, faster, and I would think with more trauma transfer. I also think it would do better on zebra and kudu, elk and such than it does on buffalo. I shot some buffalo in Australia with the 500 MDM at 2400 fps, did well, but it did not hammer like the 470 HP did. Penetration is not an issue, it comes in above any conventional soft point by a good margin, but far short of a solid. So it is expending energy quickly and slowing down much faster than a flat nose solid version.


50 B&M Super Short does not have enough capacity to get it up to speed any better than even the 50 B&M. I think even the 500 MDM at 2400 + is not working it at optimum. I think the real solution to the shredder currently is to drop the weight to 350 grs and get it up to 2800 fps or so in the 500 MDM. I could get it to 2500 fps in the 50 B&M. I am sure penetration would not suffer much by dropping the weight (MAYBE) depending on how much momentum it looses transferring trauma. A good concept, but I am going to put my money on the Brass NonCons with the shearing petals--that I believe is the best of both worlds, trauma transfer and penetration all in one great package!

While velocity is zero issue with the Aluminum version, I think the weight loss would kill it quick once terminal penetration started. Without that momentum behind them, penetration will always be an issue with that, unless of course our goal is LIMITED penetration, which I think is a strong point with these in some scenarios!!!

My random Friday night thoughts on the matter!

Also I am waiting for some questions concerning the few little 45 acp bullets posted, You boys did see those didn't you????

HEH

RIP, where are you? Busy day at the office?

Michael

Capo
Thanks for all of your time to come up with these numbers.
Since most deer hunting is done under 100 yards it seems that the deadly Eco friendly high velocity aluminum bullets could be an option.

Nose profiles will greatly determine terminal and trajectory performance. I am wondering if an ogive to 60% meplat will be the best all around performer.

Michael
I found the 45 ACP performance to be quite eye opening
The Talons, Barnes and Hydroshocks all seemed to work flawlessly.

If I had to bet my life based on those results the hydroshocks have my vote!

Thanks!

Boomy
Don't count on magic 45 acp bullets. They don't exist! I Took one of those magic black talons, shot a cougar dead center of the chest, bullet traveled about 24 inches and I could have loaded it again and shot it twice! No expansion at all, zero.

Hydros expand a little too much for my taste, limited penetration.

The Golden Sabers are ok, but I find myself leaning towards the gold dots, fairly good consistency with those.

I also find myself as always backing up with ball ammo! Penetration, penetration, penetration!

Michael

Michael,
Yep, I's here!
Been busy!

I like the 45 ACP hardball performance! Amazing penetration.
Round nose hardball 230 grainers?
How would a truncated cone FN FMJ of same weight compare, or was that how it went 15", RN or FN?

When I was a medical student, my first night in the ER a good ol' boy came in dead with a .45 ACP hardball hole in his forehead. Palpation showed it was bulging his scalp at the back of his head.
His brother shot him.
Perfect performance! Dumped all its energy inside the noggin!
One-shot stop!
230-grain RN FMJ clear as day on X-ray.
And he was a big specimen with a very hard head, like a trophy buffalo. Very thick skull front and back, obviously, judging by his X-rays and his tooth to tattoo ratio, which was very low.
Of course this was only one skull shot, and Alf would probably require at least 10 identical skull shots to be considered other than merely anecdotal.

Moving on to .338 TSXs:
Either 225-grainers or 250-grainers will do IMHO.
The SD's are respectively: .281 and .313
Maybe a 240-grain .338 TSX with SD of .300 would be best,
at about 2700 fps.

I gotta go measure some gross water capacities of .458 B&M cases and compare them to .458 WinMag cases by RP.
I assume the .458 B&M headstamped QualCart cases are RP 300 RUM basic.

Then I must consider the tight throat on the SSK reamer and whether I want to Weatherby-ize my throat:
My ideal for that would be about 0.450" length of parallel-sided freebore of .459" diameter and then the 1.5-degree leade.
I have had plenty of best accuracy and best velocity with such throats.

That would let off some pressure and allow even higher velocities than you have been getting.
And it is way tighter than the sloppy-wide-long-funnel throat of the .458 WinMag.

I am even thinking of lengthening the barrel from 20" to 23", which I find most pleasing, aesthetically.

Ain't I a dirty rotten bastard?
Thinking of bastardizing the .458 B&M "short" concept.
Would make a heck of an elephant rifle and whale whisperer, with a little tweeking it may be a .458 B&M Peacekeeper too.

Rip, Michael

Looking here the 460 Heavy Express (rimless 348 2.25") seems to match the Win Mag

http://www.huntnetwork.net/mod...t%20Perspectives.pdf

boomer,
Thanks for that link.
Have you looked at Lehigh Bullets website?
Got some load data for a 100-grain aluminum CQB there, .458/100-grain at 3000 fps in a 45/70 for dangerous water jugs:

http://lehighbullets.com/index.html

NONCON performance from the Lehigh Bullets website,
looks like the brass .500-cal/350-grain does better than the copper:

Photo 1 - Lehigh bullet terminal test photo in the Bullet Test Tube. The top bullet was a copper prototype design. The bottom bullet is the Lehigh 500-200 at 2,150 fps. Note the petal separation and resulting wound channel upon penetrating the body cavity area. The bullet base, now again at bore diameter continues deep penetration, uninhibited by a large upste front diameter.





Photo 2 - Bullet Test Tube showing the petal exit of a Lehigh 500-200. Note the symetry of the radial pattern. The Bullet Test Tube media is tough and the petals exited with sufficient force to imbed in a nearby oak log.



The 500-200 was designed to provide advanced terminal performance for the new .500 cartridges including the .500 Cyrus, .500 S&W(Encore rifle), and .50 Beowulf. The strong nose design and DOA technology provides incredible stopping power and exceptional penetration. Please note the ATF regulations specify this bullet can only be used in a rifle. Weight - 350 grains BC (calculated) - 0.136 Length - 0.950 Design velocity - 1,200-2,600 Material - UNSC36000 brass Sold in a packages of 50 at $70.00/box. Shipping via USPS Priorty Mail to the 50 states is included in the price.


Oh yeah.
Gotta go measure some case capacities ...
Letter Rip

Yes. I started to look for where the aluminum bullets fired out of the 458 SOCOM came from and found them.

If you read further back I post the link in this thread.

What we need now is a variety of bullets in large bore pistol calibers and all the big bores.
Since aluminum is not considered an armor piercing bullet we are free to have all kinds of bullet designs for six shooters.

quote:

boomer,
Thanks for that link.
Have you looked at Lehigh Bullets website.
Got some load data for a 100-grain aluminum CQB there, .458/100-grain at 3000 fps in a 45/70 for dangerous water jugs:

boomer,
Just trying to humor the aluminum bullet thing. Not interested for my sixguns.
Such lightweight stuff would be like ... "Are we there yet?"
Have fun!
Letter Rip

LOL

Maybe in recoil but for humans and small game they will be deadly as all get out.

An aluminum bullet albeit light going that fast and with the hollow point will be more devastating than conventional handgun bullets close range.

Did you see the quickload numbers for the 500 S&W?

The weight of a 9mm bullet but going 2,652 FPS!!!

138gr .500 SST FN Shredder Aluminum Solid bullet
Hodgdon HS-6 Propellant
UCC: 40.9grs, CW: 34.0grs = 2652fps & 2156ft-lbs @ 61534 psi

It wont be like having sex and the girl goes "Is it in yet?" this banshee will scream!

Let's put it this way...

You praised the 45 ACP that dumped all of its energy in the skull of the big guy and did not exit.

The 45 ACP in the high range produces 400 FPE
Imagine a bullet that does not exit (To be determined) that dumps FOUR TIMES that amount with a wound channel from hell.

Yes these are a newfandangled idea but you as a wildcatter par excellence should be open to new ideas.

If the 45 ACP bullets and the aluminum human quesinart bullets penetrate the same but deliver 4 or 5 times the energy that is a revolution in home defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOxGL5G8Pbk

Unlike the threat from Dirty Harry about the 44 magnum with aluminum bullets it might just "Blow your head clean off"

michael

The Remington 230 Golden Sabers in 45 ACP have a pretty good rep in receint shootings.

Also back in the day, I saw pretty good results with 185 Win Silver Tips and CCI 200gr HP [the flying ashtray] as well as 230gr Federal HP...

The Remington 185 +P has some followers...

The newer Federal 230 Hydro Shock has worked good too.

In 38 Special the Winchester 158 lead SWC works better than its numbers would suggest...

While all the 9mm shootings I have seen have been a big dissapointment to me...


I can also say that the Remington 230 Golden Sabre is very reliable in every 45 ACP I have shot it in, including several out of the boc colt 1911's... And I am not really a Remington factory ammo freek, but this 1911 is working pretty good.

Also their 44 Mag, either the 240 SJHP, or their 240 JSP works like the Hammer of Thor...

But most 44 Mag ammo does as good.

We had excellent results back in the day with the Speer 200gr HP, with the benefit of reduced recoil as well.

For a multiple round gunfight the 45 ACP is hard to beat, but for upclose, down and dirty, the 44 puts them on the floor...

I used a Model 25 in 45 ACP for a pretty good while [due to "bureaucratic" rules...], first with half moon clips, and later, with full moon clips, and everything considered, it was near perfect...

I did always have a Colt LW Commander in my pocket [within the rules] as a backup....

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
LOL

Maybe in recoil but for humans and small game they will be deadly as all get out.

An aluminum bullet albeit light going that fast and with the hollow point will be more devastating than conventional handgun bullets close range.

Did you see the quickload numbers for the 500 S&W?

The weight of a 9mm bullet but going 2,652 FPS!!!

138gr .500 SST FN Shredder Aluminum Solid bullet
Hodgdon HS-6 Propellant
UCC: 40.9grs, CW: 34.0grs = 2652fps & 2156ft-lbs @ 61534 psi

It wont be like having sex and the girl goes "Is it in yet?" this banshee will scream!

Let's put it this way...

You praised the 45 ACP that dumped all of its energy in the skull of the big guy and did not exit.

The 45 ACP in the high range produces 400 FPE
Imagine a bullet that does not exit (To be determined) that dumps FOUR TIMES that amount with a wound channel from hell.

Yes these are a newfandangled idea but you as a wildcatter par excellence should be open to new ideas.

If the 45 ACP bullets and the aluminum human quesinart bullets penetrate the same but deliver 4 or 5 times the energy that is a revolution in home defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOxGL5G8Pbk

Unlike the threat from Dirty Harry about the 44 magnum with aluminum bullets it might just "Blow your head clean off"

OK going back I found out that the 45 ACP bullets penetrated THE SAME AMOUNT as the 100 grain aluminum bullets but delivered 2,350 FPE That is about 2,000 more FPE than the 45 ACP's!!!!!

What will do more damage???

Not apples to apples I admit but compare what a 500 S&W with wider heavier aluminum bullets going even faster... you get the idea.

An apples to apples comparison of the same cart/gun would be interesting. Figuring out the optimal aluminum bullet size and comparing the results would be interesting.

A wheel gun with the "Aluminator" bullet (in my best Aaaahnold voice) against the 45 ACP is no comparison.

Capo...
Can you run Quickload for a 50 grain bullet out of a 45 ACP???

If a handgun can get a 50 grain bullet going 3,000 FPS that will be 1,000 FPE
If it can get 2,500 that will be 700 FPE. That would almost double a standard 45 ACP load. A standard load delivers 230 @ 850 for 370 FPE

I would like to know if anyone has experienced the following while hunting.

In 2007 I hunted in British Columbia and I shot a colour phase black bear. First shot at 300 yds with a 7mm Mag & Barnes TSX 160 gr bullets at 2950 fps - in the low lungs and the bear went down for 5 seconds or more. Then it stared running across & then quartering away. Second shot quartering away hit the left femur and sounded like another rifle shot. The impact lifted the bear up and tossed it over in mid air. It did not go far. The guide had never seen such an effect on game before. A friend of mine said he sot a red deer stag which also was lifted up and tossed over after a bone impact with TSX. I find the TSX breaks bones into splinters like with a hammer blow while lead core bullets seem to drill and mash bones where I find some small splinters and a lot of powdered crumbs of bone.

I have never read of such bullet impact on bone and would be keen to hear from more experienced people.

Hello,

I've got a 460 Rowland kit in a 1911 frame.
The difference between a 1000 fps 200gr bullet and a 1400 fps 200gr bullet is EXTREEEEM !
I would love to see what an aluminum bullet could do out of a Rowland.
Its only good for 2 legged varmints but that's OK, there is no season and there's plenty of them.
BTY: If you have never shot a Rowland then do so. It is the most controllable thing you can imagine and hits really hard.

John

quote:

The below attempts to grossly classify ratehr than state the state of matter.

Jeffeosso,

I am not sure if you are a medical doctor, but if you know liver better at the micro level or the histology that will better describe how liver will react to a hit by a bullet at rifle velocities it would be appreciated.

I am sure Alf could also fill us in on the more complex aspects of the liver, but perhaps all we as hunters need to know is if the liver reacts the same way as when muscle is hit. My understanding is that the liver is a very frail organ and gets mushed-up real quick.

Alf wrote on 4 Marrch 2008 on this very issue .... "If however the target is a liver or brain we are going to have one massive explosion of tissue as the relatively in elastic, non compressable liver or brain is going to have to deal with all that impact energy."

Warrior

Hey Warrior,

quote:

Here is an extract from a posting from Alf - Posted 05 June 2006 09:04

quote:

Alf wrote on 4 Marrch 2008 on this very issue ....

No posts listed for Alf on those dates, not even deleted ones.

Couple of possibilities:
1. The AR forum search engine has thrown a rod and run bearings.
2. Alf deleted his posts really well.
3. Warrior is being ummmm... less than truthful.
4. ALF IS BACK AND POSTING VIA WARRIOR!!

Hi NE450

You been lurking around I see! Good! I probably should have said a little more earlier about the Golden Sabers, I like them too, in fact, that's what is resting in the magazine right now of my carry gun, a full mag of them. I should have said a little more than they are good I suppose.

Oh I remember the flying ashtray well! In fact I think I still have some of those loaded in my acp stash!

I mostly lean or used to do so, towards always making a point of carrying factory ammo in my carry guns, for all the right reasons. I have to admit, the last few years I have been getting the Golden Sabers 500 to the box and loading them up for carry. Function extremely well in all my 1911 guns, shoot extremely well. I give up on "magic" 45 ACP bullets a long long time ago. I normally carry a good HP like the Saber or Gold Dot, if it opens and works, fine, if it don't, fine, it's still a 45, so in a fight it will get the job done either way. I also have always been trained to "Solve The Problem", which does not mean shoot once and see what happens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My second mag is always a mag full of good old 230 ball ammo, factory!

I've been carrying the little Kimber Ultras for many years now.

As for revolvers, yep, the mighty 44 is a fight stopper, no arguments there, I skipped and went on to 45 Colt. For many hunting trips a S&W Mt Revolver pulled double duty as sidearm companion on the hunt, and carry gun when traveling. Even it got a little cumbersome, and when I discovered the little 2 inch Taurus Ultra 5 shot 45 Colt, well that has seen duty for a long time now. Hardly even know you have it on your hip!

Michael

RIP

The piece of ball was just good old rn ball ammo of some sort. I forgot which what and how now.

I have some of the Hornady FN FMJ, I need to put them in the mix to see. They have always been excellent bullets.

Those tests I showed photos of were a long time ago too. I kept all the bullets, but did not even record penetration or very little anything else.

I was thinking of doing a new handgun test sometime soon, just have not got around to it. I have to admit sometimes I find handgun stuff a bit boring. I know, don't all you guys slap me around, it's just me. What tests I would do would relate to defensive rounds anyway, not hunting. Saving that for Whitworth!

Hey it looks like our NonCons are performing in the wax blocks like they do in my test medium. I have seen this before, but didn't pay that much attention. Something Richard Mann did I think.

What did you get for case capacity?

Michael

Phats

A long time ago I got hot on the 460 Rowland! I bought 500 pieces of brass, got a barrel fitted to one of my 1911s, and was set to jet. Loaded up a magazine full of something hot as hell--460 Rowland stuff! Shot one magazine full and that was it!!!! The whipping recoil twisting my wrist, causing undue trauma to my wrist I packed that shit up and forgot about 460 Rowland!!!!! Eventually I traded the brand new 500 pieces of 460 Rowland brass for 500 pieces of 45 Colt brass and have been very happy ever since to put the 460 Rowland out to pasture! Ugly recoil on a 1911 frame! Whipping, turning my wrist sideways, screw that!

Michael