quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
So where does weight fit in--

do we have the metric for dropping from traditional weights to the Non-Cons?

SSR

Cross,

Bullet weight is an integral part of #8 Sectional Density... SD is computed by bullet diameter and weight; lower the bullet weight and you've lowered the bullet SD - raise the bullet weight and you've raised the bullet SD - all relating to the same caliber bullet.

Regarding the metric... One has not been compiled yet but we definately have a wealth of information within the thread relating to the .458 caliber relative to monometal solids and traditional C&C solids AND for NonCons vis-a-vis both traditional expanding monometals and C&C bullets. Likely easier to find on Michael's website than digging through the 240+ pages here...but it is available.

Oh yes... I might add that the principal reason for the lighter weights of the ESP Raptors compared to the 'standard' BBW#13 HP NonCons per caliber is that the lighter weight Raptors are required to stabilize in the 'traditional' twist rate barrels offered in most calibers by rifle and barrel manufacturers...

And regarding the 'metric'...compare the depth of penetration of the NonCons vis-a-vis the traditional weight expanding bullets for that caliber and you'll begin to see where the NonCons by weight match and then begin exceeding the heavier TEBs.

Dan and Nate made it back in country today. I got a couple of quick messages from Dan earlier via cell phone from Detroit!

From Dan;

Awsome hunt, I killed 2 Wildebeest, Kudu, Oryx, Zebra, Waterbuck, Impala, and a Warthog. Nate killed Kudu, Oryx, Zebra, Impala, and Wildebeest. I am in Detroit so I figured I would send you a message. We did not have internet access and our phones didn't work over there.

Dan Smitchko
Cutting Edge Bullets
Sent from my phone

Warthog was quartering towards shot in the leading shoulder with the C130 bullet. Bullet broke the skin right in front of the off hind quarter but did not exit but was laying against the skin.





I'd say pretty decent for a 130 gr .308. I have seen warthogs stop a hell of a lot more than that--I like the bullet sticking out! Straight as well, and penetration appears dead straight to from that angle.

M

THIS IS THE ONE I WAS WAITING ON!!!!!!!

This deserved a post of it's own!

""This was probably the shot of the hunt. Since we killed out early they offered for us to kill a couple of cows for meat. Look closely between his eyes and you will see a .458 hole. He shot it at about 120 yards with a 295gr Noncon""

I am sure we will get more details over this week. You know how it is, let the boys get home, get back in the groove and get some rest!

I ain't gonna lie, I love that photo of the wildebeast--I apologize, but I am what I am!


I know, it's awful and all that, but.............................. I can't help it!

You can see by the look on the Wildebeest that even he "Has never seen anything like that before!"

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
You can see by the look on the Wildebeest that even he "Has never seen anything like that before!"

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
You can see by the look on the Wildebeest that even he "Has never seen anything like that before!"

OH MY GOD BAXTER---YOU ARE EVEN WORSE THAN ME!!!!!

We are Both Hell Bound you Know!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
You can see by the look on the Wildebeest that even he "Has never seen anything like that before!"

+1

I didn't begin paying attention to this thread until about 18 months ago. I have since become friends with Michael and have met him, Sam Rose and CEBs Dan and Nate. I was so convinced by the information available in this thread that I and my hunting partner ordered a 458B&M each from SSK. I used the CEB solid from my 458Lott on Ele last September, while my B&M rifle was being built. I have since sold both my 458Lott rifles and will be taking only my 458B&M on another Ele hunt this August, where my son-in-law will join me on his first safari, looking to take a Buff with a .416Rem. We will both be shooting only CEB bullets. I intend for him to use the NonCon exclusively on his Buff, without any concern.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the knowledge base. As I've told Michael before, I firmly believe we are experiencing the next quantum leap in ballistics, bullets and cartridge development.

BTW, Can we say the CEB made that Wildebeest go "bug eyed"? Can't wait to get some of those 458B&M 295gr NonCons

Shocking!
Never fear, if you like this photo, you are guaranteed entrance to The Happy Hunting Ground.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I didn't begin paying attention to this thread until about 18 months ago. I have since become friends with Michael and have met him, Sam Rose and CEBs Dan and Nate. I was so convinced by the information available in this thread that I and my hunting partner ordered a 458B&M each from SSK. I used the CEB solid from my 458Lott on Ele last September, while my B&M rifle was being built. I have since sold both my 458Lott rifles and will be taking only my 458B&M on another Ele hunt this August, where my son-in-law will join me on his first safari, looking to take a Buff with a .416Rem. We will both be shooting only CEB bullets. I intend for him to use the NonCon exclusively on his Buff, without any concern.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the knowledge base. As I've told Michael before, I firmly believe we are experiencing the next quantum leap in ballistics, bullets and cartridge development.

BTW, Can we say the CEB made that Wildebeest go "bug eyed"? Can't wait to get some of those 458B&M 295gr NonCons

RIP--I don't know--I figure we might all be going straight to Hell for getting such a kick out of that poor wildebeast? I can't help it--that is some funny "Sh*t! Every time I look at it--

HEH.....

My man Lionhunter, Mike! I have to tell you guys this, when I first noticed Mike on AR, I was not so sure I was going to like him much! In fact, I think we had a disagreement or two over some scope mounts, or some such crap, I don't even remember. Then I figured it out, He is too much like me! HEH HEH....... Mike has become a very dear friend, and someone I have a lot of respect for. He has taught me a lot I tell you! And I appreciate our friendship a great deal! Just goes to show--keep an open mind! Fact is, I am using poor Mike as a guinea pig with the 458 B&M and some loads I have been sending him! He did not know this of course, but he has been testing his rifle and these loads, and BBW#13s out to make sure that they are as universal in his rifle as they are in mine here, and so far everything is working like clockworks!

For his upcoming hunt just this morning I finished a batch of test loads I want him to try. 295 BBW#13 HP--S19SS--Longer nose projection, designed for the Super Short. 300 Raptors, and something I suspected--But had not tried yet. The 295 S13LG--Short Nost projection, designed for the Lever Guns. I can seat it deep--and properly on the top band--Insert the New S 458 Talon Tips--and it will work through the magazines-Just Like a Raptor will!!!!!! YES. I had not actually planned to do this, but it worked great. Of course I have the case FULL OF RL 7, and have not tested it here.............Well, Mike can once again be the "Guinea Pig" on this as well I suppose--Maybe just tie a string to the trigger and back off a few feet first!

Mike, 295 Noncons--2 different ones, and the Raptors headed your way this week!

Ya'll have a great day!

Michael

I hope they got detailed necropsy reports. I'd be curious to the bones broken and internal damage. That quite light 130 Raptor did good. It's a great shot to show it is a perfect bullet for tough large bodied game in 308. The bug eyed wildebeest is a classic.

It needs to be posted on the CEB website with a caption...something like, "Oh no, not the 295gr CEB BBW#13 NonCon again! Ahhh...."

Corrected.

Guinea Pig, eh Michael? Really? Oh well, as long as I can help out, you can call me anything but late for meals.

I am fortunate to have lived an adventurous life, just as I wanted to do as a child when I read Defoe, Dumas, Cooper, Melville, Twain and others. I have been spared death multiple times. I have been encouraged for many years to write my autobiography, but I am too busy continuing to live the adventure. These experiences have taught me many things I know to be true and at my age I simply will not tolerate rudeness, ignorance, assholes nor cowardly behavior. Consequently I am opinionated and can be abrasive, but at this point in my life, frankly, I don't give a damn. Hemingway may have had it right all along, although I disagree adamantly with how he wrote the ending!

I'm awaiting the arrival of those 295 NonCons.

CHEERS to all and Semper Fi!!!

The eye poping was done by the 295 Non Con but I have seen a pic of the same thing on a hog with the 85 grain Raptor from the 6.8 SPC. Eyes both dangling outside the head.

The taxodermist needs to mount the beast as he fell, bug eyed!

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

The taxodermist needs to mount the beast as he fell, bug eyed!

Keith

I would have to have that done as well! LOL......... I shot a moose once, he had been fighting another moose and his right eye was swollen shut, I had the taxidermist do him with that eye shut, exactly as it was.

This one however---HEH..........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:


The taxodermist needs to mount the beast as he fell, bug eyed!

Keith

Year Gods

How would you like to see that on your wall staring at you by lightning-----

I LOVE the idea!

SSR

I think his eyes bulged out before he got hit. He got bug eyed when he saw it was a brass non con coming at him and knew it was his last moment lol

I have a feeling there will be a lot more head shots with non cons and raptors after this.
Call it the Rodney Dangerfield shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:


The taxodermist needs to mount the beast as he fell, bug eyed!

Keith

Year Gods

How would you like to see that on your wall staring at you by lightning-----

I LOVE the idea!

SSR

Absolutely hilarious!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have a feeling there will be a lot more head shots with non cons and raptors after this.
Call it the Rodney Dangerfield shot.

Guess we’ll have to say Michael was the first to try…

but he failed… He used solids and didn’t center punch the eyes… So no bug eyes!!!

Word is starting to trickle in from Dan and Nate. I spoke with Dan at length yesterday morning about the bullets, the hunt, and some of the particulars, photos and commentary to follow up. Nate sent an email yesterday with some photos and commentary on some of his animals, and his use of the 295 BBW#13 NonCon in his 458 B&M.

From Nate;
That little .458 B&M did an excellent job with those 295 gr NonCons. That's
just a really fun gun to shoot. It only bit me once. I was down on one
knee when I shot my Zebra under some brush. I was leaning into the gun and
I kind of knew I was gonna get cracked with that scope. But you can't feel a
damn thing when you're shooting at an animal. That was probably the closest
shot that I got, maybe 35 yards. We were in some thick s**t and I had that
little Leupold VX-III cranked down to 2 power. Drilled it right behind the front shoulder, it went maybe 30 yards at the most.




The kudu that I shot was very nice. The shot was
a bit high at 150 yards, but we were shooting down at a pretty steep angle
off of a rocky ledge. So the exit was low enough that it hammered both
lungs. One of the petals took out the spine too so it dropped in it's
tracks.



I couldn't believe how tough the Gemsbuck was. I took him though some brush
at about 100 yards right beside the front shoulder. He was quartering
towards us pretty hard. We walked up to where I shot him and we found him
standing there staring at us about 15 yards away. So I pounded him again
right in the front shoulder expecting him to drop. He still stayed
on his feet. I couldn't believe it! He was only up for about 3 seconds
though before he fell over dead. We actually recovered the bullet that went
in though the shoulder and clean through the stomach. It was just barely
stuck in the hide sideways back by his stomach.



The impala that I shot was a tough. He was also
quartering towards me in some thick brush. The bullet blew the hell out of
3 ribs on the way in, and came out his hind quarter on the opposite side.
He didn't have any lungs left!





I’ll probably get some crap over this video but I had to post it:
http://youtu.be/6S56o2spCw0

The wildebeest on the right is the one that I shot. It’s hard to see but if you look closely you can see it drop.

Now here is the 295 BBW#13 NonCon that Nate was shooting in his 458 B&M. Come to find out, Nate did not use the Talon tip on this hunt, straight NonCon.

Just Sunday morning I was loading some of these for LionHunter and his 458 B&M to give a try. I had suspected that I could load this bullet to that top band, put a Talon Tip in, and it would be short enough to work through the magazine of the 458 B&M. I was correct, it does. It can also be seated to the Top Band and work in standard magazine lengths of the 458 Winchester and the 458 Lott as well.

Some test work yesterday with RL 7 and H-4198 in the 458 B&M took the bullet to 2660 fps with 75/RL 7 and 73/H-4198 took it to 2710 fps in 20 inches of barrel. I am going to try it this morning in my 18 inch Ultimate Stocked Stainless 458 B&M--My designated Alaskan Rifle!

Now some things have changed on this bullet since this first run. It is .458 now all the way. I know that the SS (Super Short) has been dropped, and I think it is still S13LG. If not S13LG, you can look it up on the CEB Site--it's the 295 BBW#13 NonCon for the Lever Guns--same bullet. This is old stock that I have, and what Nate was using as well. Nate took some rather long shots with his rifle, long to me anyway, 150 + yards. I think he drilled the Wildebeast at 120 or so yards, right betwixt the eyes! Not too bad! I think I would try this bullet seated as I show it, and make use of that Talon Tip--the New ones with the HP--that is what I am showing. Of course we only got that perfected right before they left, so Nate might now have had much of a change to try it out?

The Kudu shot is another example how with the non cons and Raptors even a not so good shot can be quite deadly simply because the petals spread out and do damage far exceeding the conventional thinking of Terry Wieland A petal took out the spine! It rode the energy wave of the initial impact to do a good job.

quote:

It only bit me once. I was down on one
knee when I shot my Zebra under some brush. I was leaning into the gun and
I kind of knew I was gonna get cracked with that scope. But you can't feel a
damn thing when you're shooting at an animal.

A Leuppy 2-7 has a short eye-relief. 1.6--5 Nikon Slughunter has 5 inch eye-relief. I know that we don't need 5 inches when he hold correctly, but sometimes we hold incorrectly and the extra inch or two makes all the difference.

Excellent!
This will sell some bullets.
I will have to have some .458/295g NonCons
with the Raptor tips to turn my .458 B&M (19.75" barrel)
into a proper plains game rifle.
Any idea on the BC of the bullet with tip installed?
I'll be looking back through this Sears&Roebuck Catalog of a thread
To see if it has been covered already.

Me too.... for my 458 Acc Rel... Just so damn difficult to get here...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Excellent!
This will sell some bullets.
I will have to have some .458/295g NonCons
with the Raptor tips to turn my .458 B&M (19.75" barrel)
into a proper plains game rifle.
Any idea on the BC of the bullet with tip installed?
I'll be looking back through this Sears&Roebuck Catalog of a thread
To see if it has been covered already.

I just did a 50 yd impact--42 between Chronos.

Using G1 Standard Flat Base I come up with .265 BC with tip.

That is 2607 fps and 2470 fps. My SS 18 Inch Alaska gun--72/H-4198. I tested up to 73/H-4198 yesterday with zero issues about another 30+ fps or so. Might could go more? Right now all Pressure Traces are down.

If this is correct, very effective out to 250-300 yds, still above shear easy.

Michael

I loved that video! Nice shot Nathan!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I just did a 50 yd impact--42 between Chronos.

Using G1 Standard Flat Base I come up with .265 BC with tip.

That is 2607 fps and 2470 fps. My SS 18 Inch Alaska gun--72/H-4198. I tested up to 73/H-4198 yesterday with zero issues about another 30+ fps or so. Might could go more? Right now all Pressure Traces are down.

If this is correct, very effective out to 250-300 yds, still above shear easy.

Michael

Both CEB bullet performance and response time from MIB Laboratory could not get any better.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Both CEB bullet performance and response time from MIB Laboratory could not get any better.

Well as I calculate the time between your post and request, and actually getting a number was 15 minutes flat.

About as good as I can do!

HEH

M

Your eye will always be closer to the scope when shooting from the kneeling and prone positions. That's simply a fact of physiology. Offhand and sitting positions allow for the most eye relief.

It is my belief that many people tend to move their spot weld forward when shooting off sticks that are positioned too low for the shooters height. Something to keep in mind when discussing stick placement with your PH prior to going into the bush.

BTW, Nate's scope looks to be a 1.5-5x rather than a 2-7x, and has plenty of eye relief for the caliber.

Great shooting Nate, looks like you enjoyed your first safari and that the .458B&M is everything we all hoped it to be.

Mike

I think you are spot on correct, Nate used a 1.5X5 I am almost positive. Yes, it has excellent eye relief, and I think it's actually more than what Leupold states in the specs, those specs are wrong. It is more than 4.5 inches I know.

I hope Nate or Dan will come on during some of the posts and photos and tell about what they saw, and what they thought about the performance of the 458 B&M and the 295s. I can't wait until you try those out that I sent. I am trying to get some loaded for Carl as well, and send to him on Monday.

I am trying now to put together these photos and comments from Dan and Nate on the bullet performance, so be patient I have lot's of photos now uploaded, now to make sure I match things up proper.

Michael

OK I am trying to get on track here with the reports.

1st one up is Nates Zebra, taken with 458 B&M, 295 BBW#13 NonCon.



From Dan;

This was a perfect shot and probably the closest shot he took at 30-40 yards. Another peek-a-boo around a tree shot squeezing it in there. This animal was hit very hard in the front shoulder with major amounts of damage to the heart and lungs. The zebra only went about 30 yards. Since the entrance and exit holes are .458 diameter there was a lot of blood coming out of the entrance hole for 15 minutes afterwards. Nice exit hole and the skin was still attached in one corner of the hole. I would have to say that there is no such thing as too large of a caliber for even plains game.

Entrance side


Exit

It must be nice to test the product you make like this and call it work

Hoping for more necropsy photos. That's terminal ballistics.
Very interesting, and does not affect my appetite. Pass the popcorn.

DocM,

Based on this info, would not a 270grn (approx) Non Con be the cat's meow out of a 404J at around 2800 fps or so? With the tip, of course

Regards

Esskay, I don't know much about .423 caliber, but knowing the BBW#13 NonCons pretty good, a 270 gr .423 or .416 would do about anything you want to do on thin skinned animals like plains game I am sure.

RIP---More necropsy coming!!!!!


Dans Zebra--300 WSM 130 ESP Raptor 3300 fps.




As we were standing around Nates zebra taking pictures and waiting for the tracker to bring the vehicle we heard the zebra coming back. We got ready and sure enough a big male was feeding diagonally to us along with others. I shot him quartering to me and a little high like most of my shots were. All hell broke loose and a zebra and kudu bull cam trotting straight at us. Andrew said, I’m not sure that is the one and it didn’t look like the same one I shot to me either. Just then Nate said, to the left, to the left. And along came the hit zebra hobbling on three legs so I shot it again low behind the shoulder at about 20 yards. The first shot broke the leading shoulder and hit lungs and the second shot blew the brisket to pieces and petals punched holes in the heart. It went another 30 yards and piled up. Both bases passed through.