The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Terminal Bullet PerformanceGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
Yes Peter and Hugh--Will get back to the Hollow Bases for a good and proper study! I promise. I will incorporate Sam to give me a hand as well. Now, did some shooting today, some really neat results with the 480 BBW #13 Solids and matching NonCons. Along with the 450/420 versions. First, share some B&M Pressure data--.457 480 CEB BBW #13 Solid with 75/AA 2520 2207 fps at 59724 PSI--in a 20 inch barrel--in 18 inches 2165 fps. The matching .457 #13 NonCon with 75/AA 2520 gives me 2221 fps and 57498 PSI in a 20 inch gun, and 2186 fps in a 18 inch gun. More than enough to do what you need to with the little 458 B&M. Now, did another interesting little pressure trace also--450 CEB BBW #13 Solid vs 450 Barnes Banded Solid. Both with 77/AA 2520. 450 CEB #13 2247 fps at 56948 PSI---450 Barnes Banded 2245 fps at 58927 PSI. Now of particular note is this--The 450 #13 had a ES of 11 fps and 1319 PSI---the 450 Barnes Banded looked awful ES of 38 fps and nearly 8000 PSI. Ugly curves, and numbers with the Barnes! I suppose that's the difference between Big Factory bullets and custom bullets! ????? I will be doing North Forks next week--Expect excellent results from those as well! Another matter that I was particularly interested in were two things, accuracy with the .457s in a .458 barrel--POI (Points of Impact) with the 480 Solid, 450 NonCon, 450 Solid, and 420 NonCon at 50 yds. Also take note of the Nitro Express Bands and the Standard or what I have also called the B&M bands.  Accuracy was better than I could shoot--I shot 5 rds each of .457 480 #13 Solids and .457 450 #13 NonCons--8 of them were in a 1/2 inch group all in a hole at 50 yds--I pulled one 1/2 inch left, pulled a second to 1/2 high. Accuracy is fine with these in .458 guns. I have some loaded in 458 Lott to try also. Shooting the 450 #13 Solid I fired 4 rds of that, it was 1/4 inch higher than the 480/450s, and the 420 NonCon was 3/4 inch higher than the 480/450s and 450 Solid. For all practical DG ranges, same POI at 50. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 What is there to say about this. Great performance! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Now take note--this is good, nothing wrong with this performance at all--but it's not any better than the 420 NonCon at all--about even. Now one did catch on something in the mix, got a little confused and slightly off course for some reason? Still penetration far beyond any conventional of any sort.  Buffalo don't have much of a chance I figure! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Now, last but not least for this weekend is I thought it prudent that we update the Solid Test Sheets for .510 caliber, with the new 570 CEB BBW#13 Brass Solid added. I could not figure out how to get it on one sheet to post, so it is two.   M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
And a new Updated 458 Solid Test sheets as well--again X2   And that's it for the weekend guys! That's all I have right now. Start up again next week! I will most likely be adding new data and such to the B&M site tomorrow as well. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well now 450NE, I suppose we must see how they do in your rifles now! Hmmm, they are doing pretty fair in the 458 B&M so far! Don't worry, if I shoot all the rest I have in stock, then we will get some more made! HEH. Oh and one more note for those waiting on .620 (Doc) and those waiting on .585s (Don & McKay)---Dan is going to start running brass and copper, and NonCons on 1/24--I should have them in hand and on the way out by Thursday of that week or so. He is going to be at Shot only next week--I don't want these run without him in attendance. Also, I am not too concerned anymore about POIs--all you guys need to let me know if there are any issues with POIs in your rifles between solids/NonCons. I am also not too concerned about the .585 and .620 NonCons--new broach will have the blades the same thickness as the ones now on the "Minor Big Bores" HEH.....So they are going to work, I have zero doubt about it, well maybe 1% doubt! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
One of Us |
Michael, thanks for posting the updated .458 solid test above. Very imformative! Now, if I could just get you shooting a Blaser R93  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
| One of Us |
More speed Doc M! These bullets are moving very slooooow! The 535's should be leaving the tube at 2500+ FPS. Our original .505 inch for Gibbs at 615 grains clocked 2600+ ... | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dave Very welcome and glad it is useful to you! Man, a blaser 93, I don't even know what that is? HEH---I think you must make a plan to try some of those .474 #13s as well! MacJ Yeah, I am sure I could step it up a notch or two in the 510 Wells if I wanted. Basically I just use that thing as a .510 test platform, and have very little real interest in it. First it's not a Winchester, second it is WAY TOO BIG, 11 lbs, 24 in barrel, about 5-6 feet long, ugly, won't feed, and kicks like a mule because of poor design. So I would never consider taking it to the field, so I have not worried much about developing it. Get what I need out of it to test with, then put it away until the next test. Was thinking of getting it mounted on a frame with some wheels to move it around, maybe just make a cannon out of it or something. HEH HEH!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
One of Us |
Thanks for the tests, Michael. First a couple of big-game-hunting-newb questions. Since the .458 B&M with the 480 grain solid penetrates to 63 inches, would it not be suitable for dangerous game? (Of course, assuming proper shot placement.) What type of game would the 450-grain NonCon be best suitable for? Based on what I've learned here, I would think it's not suitable for dangerous game. Now for those who might be interested in what my momentum density program had to say about predicting the penetration.
Actual: 63 inches
Actual: 31 inches Lost stability 27 ins., 1.5 ins off course So I suppose the formula also passed these two tests. Now, please understand that the reason I've been using this formula is to help support Michael's tests. I suppose you could call this my contribution, even though I'm no math/physics whiz by any means. I'm just a student, and not a very good one really. But as I've said, I'm using a quick and easy, but accepted method for estimating penetration, the momentum density. The constants I derived empirically. The shortcomings should be obvious, but I do think that the narrow range of the constants involved (18 to 24) helps bolster the fact that there is some mathematical validity to Michael's testing. This is all I'm trying to do. I'm not showing off because I have nothing to show off!  _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you guys can wing a 570 at 2300+ you should be able to wing a 535 at 2500. I'll send you more bullets if you like.  | |||
|
One of Us |
Glenn, Definately a DG bullet; primary target game is elephant. It is a DG bullet; primary target game is Asian or Cape buffalo. The shearing petals do cause great damage and the remaining shank penetration exceeds that of premimum bonded bullets. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hugh & Peter, Sam’s original HB bullets gave slightly less maximum penetration than the relating FN solid when loaded to the FN solid’s velocity and gave equal penetration to the relating FN solid when loaded to the relating HP’ velocity. The delay in the HB testing is not Michael’s fault, it was mine. My intent was to velocity match a new 460gr .500 caliber CEB BBW #13 HB Brass Solid bullet to the proven 460gr .500 caliber CEB BBW #13 HP Brass Solid bullet for use against buffalo out to 150yds. I figured to use two HPs up top (one in the tube and one-1st round out of the magazine) for up close and personal 1st and 2nd shots followed by two HB bullets (2nd and 3rd rounds out of the magazine) for “Texas heart shots” should the need arise. So I spec’d the 460gr .500 HB bullet’s hole diameter and depth as identical to the already proven 460gr .500 HP hole diameter and depth. Once the 460gr .500 CEB BBW #13 HB Brass Solid bullets arrived Michael tested them with a compressed ball powder loading successfully used with the 460gr .500 CEB BBW #13 HP Brass Solid bullet. Unfortunately this compressed ball powder loading resulted in pressure spikes higher above the pressure levels encountered with the HP bullet rather than producing a slight reduction in pressure in the 50 B&M. A retest with a non-compressed extruded powder loading worked fine giving less pressure with the same or slightly higher velocity than the corresponding 460gr #13 HP bullets. Michael still needs to retest the current HB bullets with compressed loads of extruded powder in the 50 B&M to determine if the pressure spikes will raise their ugly head again. But all is not lost. Subsequent to the initial ball powder test, I’ve had email correspondence with both Michael and Sam in an attempt to develop a proper ratio of the HB’ hole diameter and depth to the bullet shank diameter in an attempt to eliminate all powder issues with the HB bullets. I do believe that Sam will come up with the proper ratio of bullet shank diameter to the HB’ hole diameter and depth that will prove successful with all powders in the 50 B&M. And once this ratio profile has been proven it can then be utilized for HB bullets in other calibers as needed. I apologize for the delay that my haste caused with the HB bullets. Also, many thanks to Michael and Sam in their efforts to overcome my hasty design decision. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
|
One of Us |
Yes, the 505 Gibbs thinks like a 416 Rigby and in a modern bolt-action would just love to strut its stuff. It will want a little colored tip, too. The main thing separating me from a 505 is about $4000-5000 disposable income. But should one ever end up in my hands I would look for ways to put a high BC bullet in it. It would handle that eland at 300-400 yards nicely. It should probably feel like firing 1 and 1/2 Rigby at the same time so it should be managable. Though I might want to put on a Bushnell 6500 1.25-8 with 6" eye relief down to 4.5" at 8 power. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Aha, okay! Cape/Asian Buffalo. Yes, I don't think you exactly see those in a petting zoo.  I may have misread or not understood properly. It may have been elephant that I was thinking required penetration. Good info, Jim. Thanks. _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
Glenn Oh yes, the new NonCons are the very essence of what I think may be about the perfect bullet for "dangerous Game". Of course this remains to be seen after much more field experience. I consider the new BBW #13 HPs as they are now, just about the perfect buffalo first shot. So far we have seen tremendous trauma inflicted, both in test medium and on animals taken thus far. Penetration is superb, so there are no issues there either. One thing to keep in mind, especially going to the field with a NEW bullet. We must compare penetration of the new bullets, with what we know to have been a good bullet in the past, test and field. Penetration is everything--if the penetration is there, then there is little chance of a catastrophic failure. Without the penetration then we might be taking a chance. Now fortunately we have a lot to compare to with the test medium, with all the well known buffalo bullets from Swift, barnes, and woodleigh, among others. If the new bullet compares, or exceeds the penetration of these bullets, then part of the job is completed. We can go to the field and know that if nothing else, penetration will save the day should the bullet not behave as we would expect. This is true not only on buffalo, but any other species as well. The same thing can be compared with moose, elk, all the large antelopes, lion or bear. Take a known performer, make the comparisons! I put together a few of the many bullets we have tested for terminals in different calibers. This is an example of 458 caliber, others are on the B&M site in pdf form that can be downloaded for all to view on some of the Expanding and NonCon bullets we have tested.   As you can see the NonCons penetrate far more than any of the conventional premiums. Penetration is there. So that is really not a concern. Now, how much trauma inflicted to animal tissue is what we will be looking at this hunting season. I plan on testing in the field the North Fork Expanding Cup Points and the CEB BBW#13 HPs in brass. Of course all followed up with North Fork Solids and BBW #13 Solids. Hopefully on as many buffalo as I can get on quota, and then followed by lot's of plains game as well. On the smaller plains game, say wildebeast, this will also give us a reasonable idea of how the standard BBW #13 HPs and NOrth Fork Cup Points work on lion and bear as well. Many of the participants and others on this thread will be doing the same this season. We are going to gather quite a bit of experience and reports on this performance. I am looking very much forward to it. I can go with a very reasonable degree of confidence, just based off the test work, and the penetration, and the few animals that have been taken thus far. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| one of us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
ALF, Glad to see you back. You make us think! 465H&H | |||
|
| one of us |
Alf: (quote Alf) "This is why when looking at the effects of fragments in the wounding process their contribution is not that they directly damage to the target but rather through late effect such as 1. Nidus for infection. 2. Sources of metal ion deposition 3. Projectile embolization. 4. Local foreign body irritation etc."(unquote Alf) Really now, what is the purpose of talking about nidus of infection, etc.? I tried some S&H NonCons on the Tanzania 2010 Safari of our gracious host. That would be the .395/310-grain S&H "VeloHexploder" brass hollowpoint bullet at near 2700 fps impact velocity. On 4 heart shot animals, there was ample evidence of secondary missiles going off into the lungs in a six-pointed "death star." Lung tissue does not take much energy to shred, with sharp edged brass fragments. Think of an arrowhead? As for the flip of the bullet: I agree, that happens more often than not in game animals. Not one S&H NonCon was recovered. The base of the bullet goes forward like an FN solid after the flip. Even though there is a big energy dump with the tumble, enough is retained for exit out the other side. This would be on plains game under half ton weight. Even on two other critters poorly shot: I saw evidence of severe wounding, bleeding, and even spillage of chewed vegetation on the ground in the blood trail. Wart hog. A baboon poorly shot in the guts was dead right there, went nowhere, bled out promptly. Agree, according to my anecdotes, this happens in game animals shot with NonCon fragmentation grenades, : (quote Alf) "As to the percieved stability of the ramaining shank in a visco elastic target..... there is evidence to show the remaining shank flips in target after shedding of petals ( keep in mind wetpack is not a visco-elastic target) One of the commercial ballistics simulant manufacturers have shown this to constant for all the commercial monometal exapnding bullets tested in their particular medium. ( this is not surprising based on the physics of stability of projectiles in motion)"(unquote Alf) . . . . . Doc M, What size lab coat do you wear? Jay, The reason your .510/535-grain S&H brass FN did not get used on cape buffalo with the 500 Mbogo: That 75% diameter meplat would not feed reliably in my rifle, which handles everything else with ease. Maybe some more work on the feed ramp of the rifle will fix it. I just did not have time to sort it all out before the trip. I shall. Yes 2500 fps with that bullet is the goal. 75% meplat is too big. 67% meplats feed better and penetrate better, and are all that is needed for shoulder stabilization of solid, IMHO ... but I sure hope Alf does not make me prove it scientifically. Lucky I got some .395 Tatanka shooting done with your bullet, since I only got the .395 Tatanka brass 2 weeks before the trip, and had some neck thickness incompatibility between the brass, dies, and rifle chamber ... another major detail that did not get sorted out yet ... after all these years ...  | |||
|
| One of Us |
I get it now: ALF is the accronim for Animal Liberation Front-hes trying to drive us crazy so we cant hunt by "proving" that bullets cant do anything in the real world. SSR | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Michael, The day of reckoning - and I reckon the Heym 450 is very happy, as am I, with the #13 480's and the 450 HP's! Time to create some serious nidus of infection! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf
This is 100% spot on--You are correct. As you notice even YOU use the word "CONVENTIONAL". The very essence of the term "NonCon"---Or "Non Conventional". As you already know, with NonCons when they break up because they are designed to do just that--PENETRATION INCREASES---Not Decreases-therefore ripping, tearing, and destroying tissue that otherwise would not be touched. Along with 6 secondary missiles that rip, tear, and penetrate organ tissue. There is no theory concerning this--it is happening in the field. I used Copper NonCons in Australia on 13 Australian Buffalo---all dropped to the shot, tremendous trauma transfer. So far 2 buffalo have dropped to 330 brass NonCons in 416 caliber, and to demonstrate penetration of the 6 remaining petals from a brass noncon on deer, 5 of the six exit the broadside deer 12 inches from the center wound cavity. No, I am sure the petals will not exit buffalo, but they will penetrate enough to rip and tear organ tissue, while the remaining bullet continues to penetrate. Fact--Not fiction. And, more will be in the field this year by many to continue the test work. You simply must get "Outside the Box" Alf! Oh--Energy does not kill animals--Bullets do. So throw kinetic energy out the door. NonCons are not designed for elephants---solids are. Go here I think this will explain it better for you. http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
450NE Are you saying you have been out and doing some shooting???? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP I looked on my lab coat and it's a L! I think you must be up to something? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| one of us |
 Alf, I am an M.D. with a chemical engineering pre-med background who scored 99th percentile on the science section of the old-style MEDCAT, way back when. I have been studying wound ballistics too and have no need of your sources, they are the same as mine. Of course a 140-grain or lighter 7mm HV at 3700 fps could stretch the elastic limit, of some tissues and organs, that might be encountered in a warthog. The brass NonCon petals do a dandy job of slicing and dicing through the chest of a zebra too, even at slower impact speeds, even when the entering bullet encounters heavy shoulder muscle going in, and the base of the bullet seems to continue on in a straight line through the heart and out the offside rib cage, even if it might have flipped and dumped even more energy while tumbling through the heart. The remnant of the NonCon is a large solid penetrator, maybe 80% weight retention by design, maybe 20% "petal power" by design. Not a failure, a success. Field results speak louder and more intelligently than any book learning. Another deer shot with a NonCon anecdote: In 2008 I shot a doe with the same load I took to Africa, .395 Tatanka with 310-grain VeloHexploder, brass hollowpoint. I vacuum sealed and froze the meat for the freezer. Two years later when finishing her filets, tender and delicious, I bit into a brass petal that was buried in the tenderloin. Woven cellulose and water gives a pretty good hint at field results too, it would seem. There may be a little wad of wet paper pushed ahead of the bullets, but so what? There is some temporary cavitation, and not all the paper encountered by the bullet can possibly be pushed ahead as confetti! Doc M could measure the weight of the confetti on a few exiting shots, if it will make you happy. | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Regarding some reports from the field on buffalo vs NonCons. Seems some don't care to read the thread, yet run off at the mouth.
Magic Bullet? Well I don't know about that, but it sure does look good so far. Some of these, combined with my experience with the coppers, that work a bit different, but same concept, experiences of RIP and others--I may have another Swift, Hornady, WOodleigh, Nosler, Speer, sell off--I can't see a purpose for those anymore. HEH HEH!!!!!!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Now, moving forward. I originally thought about doing a 500 gr CEB BBW #13 .458 Solid/NonCon combo, but as good as the 480 is I really don't see much purpose in that. I have some 480s loaded now in 458 Lott that I will work with some this week.  I thought I would also give you a close up of the NE bands and standard bands. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| one of us |
Alf, I heard that when it came time to hand out the residencies, they took the bottom 10% of the class of medical school, and those graduates that could bench press their own weight or more went into orthopedics, and those graduates who benched less went into obstetrics and gynecology. Please don't trouble yourself too much with trying to get your mind around all of Doc M's research, it will soon be humanly impossible for anyone to handle all that !!!. Humor, Alf, humor. BTW, the .375/300-grain Walterhog is indeed a NonCon, by the definition of nonconventional shedding of petals happily accepted, and not seen as a failure, as well as the nonconventionally high velocity also happily accepted for added performance, as an aid to petal shedding and long range precision. Yep, Saeed has got the hole in the nose of that copper NonCon perfected! Doc M, Your size L black lab coat is being embroidered Doc M, MIB and will soon be on the way to Myrtle Institute of Ballistics.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, I understand. I'm slowly beginning to realize the tests really are sufficient in themselves and they don't need any theoretical support with formulas, "ciphering", and other armchair analyses. About the only thing they might need is corroboration. Because what is truly important is how well these tests apply to usage in the field. And by many accounts which are presented here, there is a lot of correlation. Because in many cases the performance of these bullets in the field, against dangerous game, is a matter of life and death and you need substantially more than OGW's, TKO's, and other formulas which don't really tell you much of anything--and could even prove to be dangerous! But it's my faith that your tests are probably the most important thing that has been done towards understanding terminal ballistics that's been done by practically anyone! And it's all for free, thanks to your great generosity and your passion. So nobody really needs any of my ciphering. That's over now. What you're asking for is corroborating tests from others, which I'm not capable of providing. I truly wish I could, but I frankly just don't have the health or the means. However, I'll always have the interest. And if I can think of something halfway practical that you might be able to use, even in a small way like the marking of the meplats, I won't hesitate to tell you. Thanks again for the wonderful work! _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well this is the heart of a buffalo with the 416 330 brass NonCon through it. Not my photo--but the fellow who shot the buffalo.  Alf you are reaching a bit it appears. Never do you see anywhere that I compare the medium DIRECT to animal tissue. Comparison between bullets, yes---Reasonable Medium that can be CORRELATED to animal tissue, yes---tit for tat--No. Now, what you are comparing in the witness card photo is a 460 gr brass NonCon-.500 caliber at over 2600 fps as I recall, far more than the small bore bullet you are comparing the heart shot too. There are differences as we move up in caliber, and bullet design. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP
Indeed, the Saaed bullet is a NonCon. Being copper, and probably a deeper cavity it's mode of operation is different than that of the brass HPs that shear away from center. These tend to shear and petals/blades remain within the wound channel--devastating as well. These are of the type I used in Australia on the buffalo, it was amazing. Massive trauma inflicted, and buffalo dropped to the shot. In fact in taking the hit, most all within 50 yds, many at 25 or less, you could actually see like a ripple effect as the animal took the bullet--very visual trauma. Honestly, I really am not sure which method of operation is best?? Shear and move away from center, or shear and remain in wound cavity? I lean towards shear and move away from center, but I will also admit that it might be my strong desire to use these, and understand them more in the field, than from any real reasons? So far both are looking really good, and in the end, it may not really make much difference between the two modes of operation. A deep gut feeling I have tells me that either, or both methods of operation is better than conventional any way you cut it. Once I get a year in with these brass ones I will have a better idea. I can say this with at least 99% confidence, I will be using NonCons from here out. OH MAN---New Black Lab Coat--Embroidered as well! THAT IS TOO MUCH--You really shouldn't---But I can't wait none the less! Many thanks My Friend!!!!!!! I promise to wear it with great pride and to always strive to live up to what it represents! Thank You. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf Well I can tell you this, being a thin skinned critter like you and I are--You damn right we are glad the Commies don't have any of these, cause I don't think you would need to worry about a patch. Well, just let me know what caliber CEB BBW #13 Solids you need and I will make sure you have some for your elephant. So far they are doing a jam up job on elephant as well!  M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
WOW! You guys have done so much in the few days I've been offline its going to take me a week to catch up. Great stuff! Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
Glenn Ciphering and Formulas are not bad, and in fact in many ways can help a lot to understand what we have. However, in regards to that, your "faith" in the tests, and what they represent means more to me than you can imagine. Your support and ideas are very important, and much needed. I have much going on, there is no doubt I do not think of everything, and I forget much. Support, assistance, and reminders from you, and the rest of the team are very valuable, and tend to keep us on course, as who knows what direction I could go of on next! I too wish you could be in the field gathering field data, I am very sure it would be detailed and properly documented. I am a terrible field guy, always moving too fast to the next buffalo to do the best terminal studies. Hang in there and just do what you do, and that will be great, and many thanks! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 ... 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 ... 304 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Terminal Bullet Performance
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia