quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What do you think about this...with the advent of the the hollow point ogive talon tip I was thinking the 12 gauge Raptor could work. Thinking 750 grains weight and larger hole ratio and or maybe a five sides pentagon hole to sheer down to 1,000 fps for under 100 yard shooting. The solid end could be stable in a smooth bore being weight forward with the the hollow base. The hollow point or tipped hollow point Would be for rifled barrels. What do you think?

Boomy,

We need a 12 gauge Raptor that'll work in a double such as Grenedier's Paradox double that we shot back in 2010...petal shear would need to work at about 500fps though..

The tips plus a large cavity to play with could make it's functional sheer distance be 100 yards as a goal. Yes that avatar of me is holding that H&H Royal beauty. A great day that was and would be fun to have again.

An excellent report from DogMan on his bear hunt! Go see!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...931074571#7931074571


Michael

Repost here for terminal performance documentation consolidation.
What an Excelent job!
I like the secondary petal penetration and slicing.
Seven is better than one!

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:




30 yd. broadside shot right behind the leg. He went 18 yards. The CEB 295gr. super short performed exactly like they said it would.

I found these two petals under the offside hide, 6-8'' away from the .458 caliber exit wound.




My Taxidermist was amazed that there was only small entry and exit holes in the hide. This picture is of the carcass laying on it's side with the front leg/shoulder removed. This is the entry wound. To me, this is what separates the CEB from all other bullets.


The other petals must have done this damage to the liver.




This was a ton of fun for me. Sure, I could have killed this bear with my 30-06, but it was a perfect opportunity to use this gun. I feel that it and the CEB performed flawlessly. Thanks for all the info and help.

I wonder what the Luddite Terry Wee-wee-land would say about this?

I say it is excellent.
Good work Dog Man.

quote:

I wonder what the Luddite Terry Wee-wee-land would say about this?

Friggin read my mind RIP!

Thanks for the bullet porn, DogMan . . .

Awesome, just awesome! The non-coms make cartridge selection almost a moot point. Any caliber will do, as long as you shoot a non-com. As Michael said, hit it in the front half and it can't live.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

I wonder what the Luddite Terry Wee-wee-land would say about this?

Friggin read my mind RIP!

Boys, Terry Wee Wee Stepped on his own Wee Wee on this! Stupid Ass! He opened his big arrogant mouth before knowing anything about it, now where is he? No respect from me, I can tell you that! Ignorant F**K.

Anyway, how about that bear! Dogman gave an excellent report on the performance of the bullet. And what he reports are exactly the things I have seen in the field as well--its great for other folks to report the same.

Whelenite, it is awesome, and for sure, get a NonCon in the front end of anything, and there is no such thing as survival, it ain't gonna happen. If it runs, it ain't gonna go too far either, and die on its feet at that. Wicked, just Wicked!

M

Again, excellent report Dog Man.

Boomy, your idea of a 12ga raptor would indeed be something to consider. I have my 12ga PMDR (poor man's double rifle) with screw-in rifled chokes that could use them.

Michael,

Thanks for all the info that you've put together over the last couple of years on this subject.

I was wondering if you've done LVSP testing on the 375 ESP Raptors yet? I'm thinking of selling my 300 WBY and just using my 375 Ruger for all of my big game hunting out west. With the high b.c. of the ESP Raptors, the 375 Ruger would basically replace the 300 for all my hunting needs and have an extra 50grn on each bullet!

I planned to buy some .308 and .375 Raptors from Reloading International now, but it seems to be that they don't have them in stock....

I guess I just have to wait a bit and see if they get them back in stock.
I planned to use the 100 grain .308 Raptor, but it is not listed on their site. Only the 130 grain.

To bad CEB don't ship internationally themselves

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:
I planned to buy some .308 and .375 Raptors from Reloading International now, but it seems to be that they don't have them in stock....

I guess I just have to wait a bit and see if they get them back in stock.
I planned to use the 100 grain .308 Raptor, but it is not listed on their site. Only the 130 grain.

To bad CEB don't ship internationally themselves

Have you tried calling or emailing CEB to see if they can ship some to RI to get your order filled?
What game were you thinking on using them on?

I have not contacted CEB yet.
I will over the weekend and see if they can help me.

I plan to use the .308 Raptor in the 308 win I just have ordered.
It is a Winchester Super Shadow that will have a 16.7 inch barrel with a suppressor attached.
I am going to use it on all kinds of deer.

The .375 Raptor I will use in my 375 Ruger and I am going to use it on everything here in Norway and Sweden from Roe deer to Wild Boar and Moose.
And whatever I can afford to hunt in Africa

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
Michael,

Thanks for all the info that you've put together over the last couple of years on this subject.

I was wondering if you've done LVSP testing on the 375 ESP Raptors yet? I'm thinking of selling my 300 WBY and just using my 375 Ruger for all of my big game hunting out west. With the high b.c. of the ESP Raptors, the 375 Ruger would basically replace the 300 for all my hunting needs and have an extra 50grn on each bullet!

Touchdown88

You are welcome, it's been a learning experience for all of us, myself very much included.

Short answer, LVSP 375 Raptors--No. I don't own anything in 375. I do have reasonably high confidence that the LVSP is at least equal to the 9.3 Raptors that will go to at least 1700 fps or less.

Now here is the deal, especially as we go down in caliber. Dan has been doing some extensive tests at actual long range to get LVSP on several of the smaller bores from 338 down. Here, I have 48 yard impact, and to get LVSP I have to download to velocity. What we have found is that LVSP here on the small bores at just downloading is MUCH higher than at actual range and velocity. Reason being is that at longer range and actual low velocity the bullet is more stable at that point, than it is at 48 yds and downloaded to velocity. While I may only get 1700-1800 here with the smaller bores, they may actually go down to 1400 fps LVSP at actual range because of stability. With the new design HP tips, which are from 9.3 and up this even lowers LVSP by at least 50 fps here, and probably even more at actual range. So, you can take 1700 as a very conservative LVSP and go from there with the .375 230 Raptor I would think rather easy. I think with the new HP tip, it will go much lower LVSP at actual range.

We had our friend Brent and "The Ox" yesterday, we really had a great time. I think we did much bore BS than actual shooting, but a good combo of both I think. We did a little test with the 450 BBW#13 .500 NonCon yesterday in Kens Rifle. Impact at 2300 fps, 22 yds, penetration at 25-27 inches---deep deep into buffalo country!

We have two more days of BS and shooting!

Michael

quote:

Touchdown88

You are welcome, it's been a learning experience for all of us, myself very much included.

Short answer, LVSP 375 Raptors--No. I don't own anything in 375. I do have reasonably high confidence that the LVSP is at least equal to the 9.3 Raptors that will go to at least 1700 fps or less.

Now here is the deal, especially as we go down in caliber. Dan has been doing some extensive tests at actual long range to get LVSP on several of the smaller bores from 338 down. Here, I have 48 yard impact, and to get LVSP I have to download to velocity. What we have found is that LVSP here on the small bores at just downloading is MUCH higher than at actual range and velocity. Reason being is that at longer range and actual low velocity the bullet is more stable at that point, than it is at 48 yds and downloaded to velocity. While I may only get 1700-1800 here with the smaller bores, they may actually go down to 1400 fps LVSP at actual range because of stability. With the new design HP tips, which are from 9.3 and up this even lowers LVSP by at least 50 fps here, and probably even more at actual range. So, you can take 1700 as a very conservative LVSP and go from there with the .375 230 Raptor I would think rather easy. I think with the new HP tip, it will go much lower LVSP at actual range.

Michael

You are a gentleman and a scholar......of all things bullet related. I'll get a box ordered, loads worked up, and report back.

Tyler

Touchdown, thanks, mighty kind words. Yes please, do report back on what you come up with.


We are taking a break today. I have become rather lazy around here! I will start working on getting some of the things that Alasken Oz and I did the last couple of days. While our focus was many different things, we did a few terminals. We did some BBW#13s in his 50 B&M, but that is old news, nothing new there, 450 BBW#13s at 2300 impact, I think it was 27 inches, then yesterday some 335 BBW#13s at 2650 fps or so to 20 inches, same as always. So I am not bothering much with that.

Something different--yes in fact. We all have some wild ideas from time to time, Oz is no different. He had the thought of sticking TWO 300 Gr Speer TMJ together in the same case to see what happens. Well, that's interesting, and so were the results as well!

We also tested some sort of 9.3 270 gr Lapua bullet, all copper--that was rather interesting as well.

I am not much on cast bullets in rifles--but we did an interesting test there as well with some .500 caliber Cast Performance bullets at 2180 fps.

I will work on putting these together for us tomorrow, and show you the results. If nothing else, rather intriguing to consider.

Enjoy your day gents, will catch you later.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

... I am not much on cast bullets in rifles--but we did an interesting test there as well with some .500 caliber Cast Performance bullets at 2180 fps.

I will work on putting these together for us tomorrow, and show you the results. If nothing else, rather intriguing to consider.

Enjoy your day gents, will catch you later.

Michael

Enjoy a breather, Doc M, we don't want to work you to death,
but don't keep us in suspense too long.

It was my intentions this morning to give you one of my normal reports on terminal performance, photos, labels and such, however, got my labels made, went in this morning to do the photos of the bullets, and NO BULLETS? I assume the Oz made off with them! HEH.............

OK, so all I can do is give a verbal report.

50 B&M--Double Bullet test. Two 300 gr Speer TMJ. These are little flat nose FMJ bullets. First test was with the bottom bullet seated nose down, base to the base of the top bullet. At 25 yards these impacted together, in the same hole, with the bottom bullet hitting ever slightly to one side.

Velocity was 1732 fps. At 22 yard impact both bullets traveled through the test medium together the entire length of penetration. Right at the very end, it appears the bottom bullet pushed the front one just slightly off and the top bullet came to a rest sideways, and some damaged at 21 inches total penetration, followed by the rear bullet at 20 inches. Lot's of damage and trauma up front.


The next test was with the bullets both seated nose forward, rear bullet nose resting against the base of the forward bullet. These hit on average from 1/2-3/4 inch apart at 25 yards on paper. In the test medium the rear base of the front bullet damaged the nose on the rear bullet weakening the jacket and nose of the rear bullet. Both struck slightly apart at 22 yard impact. The front bullet being undamaged traveled straight to 20 inches of penetration. The rear bullet hit with some force, causing TOTAL expansion--flat as a pancake--- and was found at a total of 8 inches of penetration. Causing a great deal of trauma to the medium.

Multiple bullets are not a new thing, and are for sure outside the box and rather intriguing to say the least. I think I recall Rob having done some work with multiple projectiles in the 600 OK, with some devastating performance at close range. At 25 yards, both these loads show a lot of promise and perform totally different depending on nose to base, or base to base. My thoughts are would the bullets hold together long enough and close enough at 50 yards? I suspect fairly close, not as close as 25 but close enough. But, this would have to be tested, things can go to hell quickly. At 25 this works--Exactly what for I am not sure, great home defense loads I would think. Now, also, performance can be changed dramatically by choosing different kinds of bullets, choices and combination's could nearly be endless. Intriguing I think, and something that could be played with. We used 53/H-4198 giving a tad over 1700 fps with the two. Performance was pretty spiffy to say the least, and surprised me somewhat at the depth of penetration.


The next bullet was a 430 Cast Performance, I believe Oz had squeezed these down from .510 to .500 instead of getting normal .501s from CP. Loaded up a rather warm load for cast at 2183 fps. At 22 yards they mushroomed a bit, and drove dead straight to 20 inches. I think they retained to around 300 grs or better, Oz can say on that. It was good performance for a cast bullet. Not much on cast bullets in rifles myself, but these did a rather good job.

Another test was with Oz's 20 inch 370 Sako. I say "Say-Ko", they say "Soc-O", suppose they are correct, but I could care less as it does not say "Winchester-O"--HEH...... AnyWHo, Anyhow, we tested a 270 gr Lapua Naturalis something or other at 2253 fps. At 22 yds it drove to 16 inches at that velocity. What this thing is, it's like our North Fork Cup Points that EXPAND--exactly the same, no blades just mushroomed copper. With more velocity it would have penetrated deeper as well. Seems to be a pretty good bullet to be euro! HEH.........

No Pics, but that is the jest of it.
Off to the range now!
Michael

Guess you'll have to start taking those photos first!

DocM,

Great work and extremely interesting stuff. Had an off the wall question for you. What would a 404J, original cartridge, barrel down to say 20", loaded with your "wonder powders" behave like? Especially with a CEB #13 of around 300 grns? Any thoughts/comments?

Regards

Esskay

Esskay you have a couple of responses over on the other thread.

To see the new custom B&M cartridge leather slides and culling belts, go to the B&M Series Cartridges/Rifles thread on this forum. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Michael may post my pics here at some later time.

Dan and Nathan, of CEB will be landing shortly in J'burg, where Andrew will be meeting them and they will be off on their little "Bullet Testing" adventure.

I spoke with Dan yesterday morning, just before leaving, we never quit working and improving the bullets, even then we were talking about some new projects as soon as he gets back will go in the works.

Dan is working with the .308 130 Raptor and will be giving it a good workout in a 300 WSM on various critters. Nathan is working with his 18 inch 458 B&M and the 295 NonCon. I am sure over the next couple of weeks we will be getting some detailed reports on the performance of both of these bullets.

I do also want to encourage any of you out there, if you get some field reports on bullet performance, please come share it with us. ANY BULLET--Not just the BBW#13s or CEB bullets. I know for many months this has looked like the BBW#13 Terminal Performance Thread--and in many ways it has come to that, but only because the concept of these bullets are so new to our world that extreme testing both here and in the field have been required to prove their value. This is still the "Terminal Performance" thread--and all performance of any bullet is welcomed, and desired. Please don't hesitate to share with us your experience--good or bad.

Michael

Here is a reply by RIP from the .500 CEB thread, dealing with a "traditional" 430 grain .500" CEB custom MTH all-copper hollow point:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim:

Staycation day again today.
Had the range to myself,
and rifle No.1, M70 Winchewster with 2.5X-8X Leupold in QRW rings and bases, no muzzle brake ... scope bases epoxied to action with JB Weld and 8x40 screws, of course.

430-grain/.500-caliber MTH design by CEB, of your instigation, is only 5" low at 300 yards (or less, no more drop than that),
when sighted 3" high at 100 yards,
and started off at about 2662 fps MV.



100.0 grains of H322 powder.
Temperature 75 degrees F.
Altitude somewhere betweenn 300 and 400 feet.
Relative humidity: Kentucky humid
Wind: Kentucky Windage brisk today, waited between shots for lulls.

That agrees very well with BC of .365 as calculated, maybe better?
Sight height 1.50", 75F, 300ft. alt., 29.53"Hg, 78% RH: +3" at 100 yards, -4.75" at 300 yards ... BC = .???

Note that two of the three bullets went into one hole at 300 yards.
I got excited at that and flinched or held too hard on the third shot, and it went low and to the right. I am right handed and strong of grip.
Still, only about 0.5 MOA for 3 shots at 300 yards,
my fault.
Maybe with a machine rest and indoor range, all these CEB bullets would go into one hole?

Rifle No.1, M70 will be zeroed with the 430-grain MTH.
Rifle No.2, BRNO, will be zeroed with the 360-grain/W350 Raptor.
All the heavier CEB bullets (450 to 500 grains) may fall where they may at 0 to 50 yards.

Now I need to shoot both rifles with all bullet types to see where they land in relation to the primary zero, and fine tune the useful zero.

Capoward calculated a .450 BC ! ! !

Yes, .450 BC.

For such a bullet we would want a mushroom as in my reply:

quote:

Wow.
A DG bullet, .500" with a BC of .450 ! ! !
Look out eland, look out impala.

We need that for .510", too, preferably something that holds together and produces a mushroom at 2600fps impact and lower,
like the picture in my avatar May 2012:






bullet on left is a full copper mushroom, shot at 110 yards, 2850-2870 fps muzzle, .416 350TSX, and an impact velocity of approximately 2585-2610 fps.
The bullet on the right was an insurance shot from about 20 yards and had an impact velocity of about 2800+ fps. It had a clean, total shear.

In terms of preferences, the Raptor is best, where the petals jump out into a hexgonal web of destruction. Following that, a traditional mushroom still does impressive damage. Finally, a sheared, all-copper or brass slug still provides impressive killing power, though its petals follow along a narrower destructive path of the 'square, flat, meplat'.

Whether exploding haxagon or tough mushroom, the idea of a high-BC dangerous game bullet appels to many of us and I know that Dan of CEB is sympathetic.

I hereby Declare, this 31st Day of May 2012, RIP the King Of Long Range Big Bore Practical Rifle Accuracy, or forever known from this day until the end of days, as KOLRBBPRA!



RIP, that is some MIGHTY fine Shooting---I yield, I might can match you at 50 yds, but that is about as far as I can go with you! Excellent, just excellent shooting!


Tanz

quote:

We need that for .510", too, preferably something that holds together and produces a mushroom at 2600fps impact and lower,
like the picture in my avatar May 2012:

quote:

Whether exploding haxagon or tough mushroom, the idea of a high-BC dangerous game bullet appels to many of us and I know that Dan of CEB is sympathetic.

Well my friend, I have several solutions to your problems! One of course, you can get yourself a proper .500 caliber rifle, bullets are already in abundance, well designed, and one for every use you can think of from rats to dinosaurs! And, I am working on two more when Dan returns. Since I started .500 caliber some years ago, there might have been one or two more at or close to the same time frame, however no one took .500 as far and studied .500 as much, now with 5 .500 caliber cartridges for nearly every sort of rifle action with the exception of doubles, and I could do a .500 caliber double rifle cartridge in the time it would take Dave to make a reamer--if I wanted one, we have brought .500 caliber to the forefront of big bore rifles. With RIPS wonderful addition to that stable, and with Jims support as well, and all others that have put in that effort over the last 6 years, I doubt seriously there are few big bore calibers that can boast the number of proper Dangerous Game, and all around big bore bullets as what .500 can claim, with the one exception of possibly .458 caliber. .500 is the Future!

Since we are talking BULLETS--not cartridges at all--.510 has fallen far far behind .500 as for availability. But all is not lost on this front either. With Big Bore Bullet Companies like CEB and North Fork--You CAN HAVE IT YOUR WAY! All you do is call up, and tell Dan at CEB or John At North Fork and tell them what YOU WANT--and in a short time they will be delivered to the address in which you designate! Just as easy as that!

So these things you desire, are only a phone call away!

Michael

quote:

Since we are talking BULLETS--not cartridges at all--.510 has fallen far far behind .500 as for availability. But all is not lost on this front either. With Big Bore Bullet Companies like CEB and North Fork--You CAN HAVE IT YOUR WAY! All you do is call up, and tell Dan at CEB or John At North Fork and tell them what YOU WANT--and in a short time they will be delivered to the address in which you designate! Just as easy as that!

So these things you desire, are only a phone call away!

Michael

And thank you, my very esteemed friend.
I'm not worried and have plenty of patience. Dan knows that we want a .510" Raptor.

As you are aware, the bigger problem for the 500AccRel crowd is what to do with brass bullets in the long throat. We still await some tests on how fast a copper bullet can go and properly engage the riflings after a 1.25" freebore throat. If the copper bullets will engage riflings up to 2700-2800 fps, then I might consider keeping the barrel. More likely, I will need to re-barrel so that the gun can shoot both copper and brass.

I'm resolved to wait until 2013 for 50-calibre hunting. These are some of the hardships of life.

Imagine, being limited in 2012 to using hotloaded 416 Rigbys! Well, we are grateful for the little things in life.

Forgive me for not going back and finding this info, but it is a long thread:

Do brass bullets need a longer freebore? if so how much?

Limited??? what do you mean limited??? 300gn at 3000fps is not limited (in my opinion), neither is 450gn at 2400fps. There is bigger and better, but yes I am also grateful for that "little" calibre.

My pig hunting trip was planned to start this weekend, but they just had an inch of rain on the property, with more forecast, so we have had to postpone. I was looking forward to it, but now there may be time to get some 300gn 416 Raptors, so it could be a benefit!!

quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
Forgive me for not going back and finding this info, but it is a long thread:

Do brass bullets need a longer freebore? if so how much?

338user, no worries mate! For sure, I can't even go back and look things up myself!

No, brass bullets DO NOT need more or longer freebore.

Normal everyday barrels are just dandy, no special setups at all.

Michael

quote:

Imagine, being limited in 2012 to using hotloaded 416 Rigbys! Well, we are grateful for the little things in life.

Gee Tanz, I don't know how you can possibly bear this load, this burden of having another year with the rat guns, rat calibers, and rat bullets, you are forced to work with in the African Bush! Why I don't don't know that I could bear this burden? You must be a "Saint", that is all I can figure!

HEH HEH......

quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
...

Do brass bullets need a longer freebore? if so how much?

Limited??? what do you mean limited??? 300gn at 3000fps is not limited (in my opinion), neither is 450gn at 2400fps. There is bigger and better, but yes I am also grateful for that "little" calibre.

...

Just the opposite on freebore. It appears that brass bullets are stripping when they engage rifling after 1.25" freebore and on course for over 2000 muzzle velocity.

"limited" was relative and tongue-in-cheek. The important thing is to have something to shoot at. My 'hot load' is a 350 TSX at 2850 fps. I only aimed at 2800 fps. But noontime sun seems to add a few fps. 2800fps is probably the 7am load. Meanwhile, I'm preparing a 500AccRel, since my son and I have to be prepared for our own backup. 50 calibre should be a tad better than 416 for upclose. The 416 is great as all-purpose, all-range, etc., etc.

Thanks for the help, all y'all.
And the back slapping over these copper bullet results that Jim instigated with Dan at CEB.
That CEB .500/430-gr copper "pointy thing" works great in a 1000 fps window from 2660 fps down to less than 1660 fps, the latter as tested at MIB Lab:





And the plastic-tipped ESP Raptor .500/360-gr/W350 works over an even wider velocity "window."
It is also more accurate than humans can tell.

Any of the B&M/MDM/Winchester rifles are well served by the Leupold QRW bases and rings.
I like to 8X40 the base screws and JB Weld those bases to the receiver too.
I have also never been failed by a Leupold VX3 2.5X-8X scope set at 8X!
Great price on them at Graf's.


The heavier copper MTH wins in BC and retained velocity, thus KE at 300 yards: almost 4000 ft-lbs delivered at 300 yards.
The Raptor is well over 3000 ft-lbs at 300 yards
Either one will do nicely as an all-purpose "soft."

Ditto Doc M on the "49-bore" .500-calibers, the new "standard."

quote:

"limited" was relative and tongue-in-cheek.

Yes, I was a little tongue in cheek too.

We wouldn't be limited with a 416 Rigby even if we faced a dinosaur.

I am quite happy with my "small bore"

quote:

Any of the B&M/MDM/Winchester rifles are well served by the Leupold QRW bases and rings.
I like to 8X40 the base screws and JB Weld those bases to the receiver too.
I have also never been failed by a Leupold VX3 2.5X-8X scope set at 8X!
Ditto Doc M on the "49-bore" .500-calibers, the new "standard."

RIP

Every rifle I shoot is equipped with Leupold QRW Bases, all scopes with QRW Rings. I have been using these since 1996 exclusively. While there may be many other really good ones out there, I am too heavily invested in the system to even consider anything else. And why would I? I have never had a failure of the rings. In years past I did some rather extensive studies on and off with the scopes. All at 50 yds of course. Shoot 2, off, and back on, shoot 2 more. I found that many many times we would go to within a 1/4 inch or even less. Sometimes 1/2 inch. Only 1 time that I can recall did it go to a full 1 inch off at 50 yards. So with that 1 Time, I call it at 1 inch max. Plenty good for emergency field use.

I don't ever recall having a failure with the 2.5X8 Leupold. Keeping that scope on 338s to 416s. Was always one of my favorites in the field. Now I am doing the 2X8 Nikon in it's place.

In fact, considering having a Leupold Scope Sell off--I just have to get it put together how many I have and are going to get rid of.

You asked a question the other day I did not have an answer for until yesterday speaking to Brian. The FreeBore on the 500 MDM is .350 Inches. On the 50 B&M and several of the other B&Ms it is .160, on a few as much as .250. I had Brian look at the specs. I also spoke with him about the large FreeBore of 1.25 on the 500 AR. Brian suspects there is probably an issue with that reamer, as 1.25 is not really a big deal, but if the lead in angle is not exactly right and or the freebore is too large, then that would be very likely to be the issue with stripping the brass bands off the bullets. These things are beyond my area of expertise, I am just reporting what is told to me.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I also spoke with him about the large FreeBore of 1.25 on the 500 AR. Brian suspects there is probably an issue with that reamer, as 1.25 is not really a big deal, but if the lead in angle is not exactly right and or the freebore is too large, then that would be very likely to be the issue with stripping the brass bands off the bullets. These things are beyond my area of expertise, I am just reporting what is told to me.

Michael

Its beyond my expertise as well for sure, but just heard Hatting... lead in angle should be quite standard and the freeborediameter is .511" on the used reamer - which others claim is all right.... The only thing wee see as the problem is the 1,25" freebore.. But we will try and use a .51015" diameter parallel freebore on the new barrel and make it .25" long this time.. I am dead certain that the brass on the bullets will NOT be stripped of in this barrel...

I suppose we will find out the mystery when Hatting finishes your rifle. Best of luck, don't get down and out, just a thing, I have plenty of issues getting things running sometimes myself. Part of dealing with DGR and Cartridges sometimes. The 500 AR is a fine cartridge and will serve you well. And, how about the new 510 BBW#13 Solid and it's mate the 475 BBW#13 NonCon. Very nice bullets, do anything you want with that combo, and more velocity as well--BBW#13s like velocity.

Hey guys! Good Morning!

Thinking yesterday about Terminals! What is left to accomplish? What is left to do? I see the massive push we have done for the last two years coming to an end! Of course, not an end to all test work and terminal performance, but I see it slowing down a good bit from what we were doing, this is for sure. We have developed an entire line of new bullets, in nearly every caliber out there, basically all the big bores of note for sure. Oh there will be the occasional test done when a new bullet hits, and at some time in the near future I want to test some of the new Nose Profile North Fork solids too. The ones that look like BBW#13s, or close, not the exact same angle, but close. To date I still only have one sample of that I got from John in January. Have you guys got any of those?

I see the furious pace we have been setting slowing down quite a bit for the near future--Whew! Glad of it as well. This stuff will make you tired!

Dan and Nathan in RSA--Have not heard of them or from them or Andrew. Maybe I try and give them a call today and see what is happening?? I am sure they are busy.

Michael

Wishing Nathan and Dan a successful Safari.
Hope they are taking good pics.
Been a fun and productive two years.
I have been toying around with an idea worthy of testing IMHO. We can chat later about that.

Michael,

I hate to see the project ending but that's what happens to all good things!

You and Sam have been responsible for removing the shadow of speculation and shining the light of knowledge on what really happens with bullets of different design and construction. So many widely held opinions proven unsound. Just a small example: Who would have thought the Barnes Banded Solid in 9.3 would fail to penetrate when other Barnes Banded Solids worked great? But there it is, opinion would be that since the BBS works fine in 500NE, it must work fine in 9.3. That opinion would be wrong! Remember, there was just a slight difference in the Meplat that caused it to tumble.

There are those who still don't want to acknowledge facts and persevere with outdated, unfounded (or should I say, disproven) theory instead of demonstrated reality about how particular bullets perform. It will be a long process getting the hunting world to come on board as a whole. As we've spoken about before, when Randy Brooks put the X bullet on the market, it so revolutionized the projectile that all the competitors could do was discredit it! Then as time passed, they began to copy it!

Remember we talked about the 3 stage progression of truth? First it will be denied, then ridiculed, then accepted. You guys have brought several truths to the fore with this project. Effects of the Bore Rider design on Barrel Strain, Straight Line Penetration of Flat Nose vs. Round Nose, Terminal Performance of the Non-Con design, and so on.

Whether acknowledged or not, we hunters own you guys a huge thanks for the data produced by this project. Being a double rifle fan, one of the biggest benefits I got out of all of it was that we no longer have to rely on opinion of what works best or is safe to shoot. We now can go to the charts and know without speculation. Another example: Many considered the Hornady bullets as safe in doubles. They probably are, at least in new guns. But I would wager the strong "Safe" opinion was based on the fact that most manufacturers use Hornady bullets to regulate the rifles. From that, they conclude that if XYZ manufacturer regulates with that bullet, they must have tested it to make sure it's safe! Right? Well since the DGS and DGX produced the second and third highest barrel strains of all bullets tested, I'm thinking the reason Hornady is used for regulation is more closely linked to the fact that it is the cheapest and easiest to find ammo, not that it has been tested and endorsed as "Safe" in their barrels. Point being that now if you want to know what bullets are easiest on the barrels, go to the charts! You don't have to rely on opinion that may have been formed of non-relevant information such as ease of acquisition and cost, instead of fact such as barrel strain numbers.

Thanks for all you've done!

quote:

Thinking yesterday about Terminals! What is left to accomplish? What is left to do?

What's left? A big ass glossy page article in the big gun mags opposite Weeland. Naming names, telling the story as it happened, the trials, the tribulations the successes the failures, everything and let people make up their own mind as to what happened and leave them wondering how a guy they have never heard of, and who has no love lost for major gun writers, changed the perception of what a bullet can do, should do, and does in the field. And that's without Dan or you having to buy advert space to 'buy' the article's spot in the mag.

I'd be willing to write a full epistle on the whole thing, I just don;t think anyone would print it without major cuts/edits effectively neutering it and making it just another 'New Gear" spot.

Of course the name of the article would be "You've never seen anything like this before."

Well

We should get a bunch of field photos coming in yet--gotta prove it to the doubters--

SSR

Michael I echo the other comments; great work from you, Sam, and Dan (and crew) to make your ideas work.

Regarding the TBP thread... Aside from making it a "permanent sticky" at the top of this forum...I think the many photos from successful hunts over the next year or so will keep things alive as well as further evidencing the nexus between your lab results carried to the field. Perhaps that’ll finally silence the naysayers. So permanent sticky, periodic hunt results, plus testing of new DG bullets; & or & , should keep things going for another couple of years.

Hey one of these days perhaps we’ll even have some results from the CEB’ .395 caliber FBH and .423 & .500 caliber MTH copper hunting bullets to add to the mix!

And here's wishing Dan and Nathan safe travels and a wonderful hunt experience.