quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Question to the forum. The damage done to the lungs seems to be extensive. Is it a fair assumption that the shot in the lung area renders the lung completely inoperable and the animal has had its last breath before the hit? No more oxygen and the animal can't run more than 25 yards because no more oxygen combined with shock, tissue damage with blood loss means DRT or short distance run. Is that a good summation?

Several hunter/writers hold that a lung shot, a shot that collapses both lungs, will drop an animal faster than a heart shot. For some game, a high heart shot will collapse both lungs and destory the arteries and veins accross the top of the heart.

My favorite shot is a on the top of the heart.
Destroying both lungs and all the main arteries and veins to and from the heart.
Most of the time resulting in no or very little running before they hit the ground.

I guess a Raptor put in that spot must be like the Hammer of Thor

Just got off the phone with Michael and he is still killing stuff and has not run out of ammo or money yet. It is only taking one shot per animal. Hummmm! He actually missed a wildabeat at 60 yards frontal which is a lonnng shot for Michael. Now that animal turned and ran but Michael was able to hit it quartering away in the front of the hip. Using his 500MDM with 350 Raptor. GUT SHOT!!! Animal ran 300 yards and was found DOA shortly after the shot with PH's dog. Michael said guts were soup and nothing went into the chest cavity. Base of bullet exited behind ribs on far side. He has yet to have a bullet base stay in any animal shot. Now boys how many gut shot wildabeast only run 300 yards before dying? Sounds like Michael is having a great time and still has two more days shooting left.

Sam

Not bad for a .2 SD bullet
Thanks for the update. That gut shot should prove interesting and ugly in the necropsy. That 350 .500" Raptor should be a good hog bullet in the Beowulf.

Thanks for the update Sam.

quote:

It is only taking one shot per animal.

I guess the double rifle crowd can saw off that extra useless barrel if they use these
Maybe trade them in for a decent single shot

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Question to the forum. The damage done to the lungs seems to be extensive. Is it a fair assumption that the shot in the lung area renders the lung completely inoperable and the animal has had its last breath before the hit? No more oxygen and the animal can't run more than 25 yards because no more oxygen combined with shock, tissue damage with blood loss means DRT or short distance run. Is that a good summation?

Several hunter/writers hold that a lung shot, a shot that collapses both lungs, will drop an animal faster than a heart shot. For some game, a high heart shot will collapse both lungs and destory the arteries and veins accross the top of the heart.

My favorite shot is a on the top of the heart.
Destroying both lungs and all the main arteries and veins to and from the heart.
Most of the time resulting in no or very little running before they hit the ground.

I guess a Raptor put in that spot must be like the Hammer of Thor

Actually it's the NonCon design that is doing the trick. we're talking about the Raptor hitting with the NonCon tip forward.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael should be elbo deep in Zebra guts by now looking for petals I hope
Knock em dead!

I was wondering how many Raptors he has used yet.

I betting, one each.

Keith

Like I figured.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Question to the forum. The damage done to the lungs seems to be extensive. Is it a fair assumption that the shot in the lung area renders the lung completely inoperable and the animal has had its last breath before the hit? No more oxygen and the animal can't run more than 25 yards because no more oxygen combined with shock, tissue damage with blood loss means DRT or short distance run. Is that a good summation?

Several hunter/writers hold that a lung shot, a shot that collapses both lungs, will drop an animal faster than a heart shot. For some game, a high heart shot will collapse both lungs and destory the arteries and veins accross the top of the heart.

My favorite shot is a on the top of the heart.
Destroying both lungs and all the main arteries and veins to and from the heart.
Most of the time resulting in no or very little running before they hit the ground.

I guess a Raptor put in that spot must be like the Hammer of Thor

Actually it's the NonCon design that is doing the trick. we're talking about the Raptor hitting with the NonCon tip forward.

I stand corrected

Yes, it's the non con brass hollow point hitting on these. The lighter faster design seems to be doing a good job since Michael has not been able to keep a base in so far. I think it's proving so far faster is better with the non con hollow point design. The boat tail/flat point just adds BC and flexibility. Speed is proving to be more of a benefit than above .2 SD from what I gather.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Yes, it's the non con brass hollow point hitting on these. The lighter faster design seems to be doing a good job since Michael has not been able to keep a base in so far. I think it's proving so far faster is better with the non con hollow point design. The boat tail/flat point just adds BC and flexibility. Speed is proving to be more of a benefit than above .2 SD from what I gather.

It's a facinating performance trade off between velocity and SD in the NonCon part of the Raptor design once all the other things such as stability and length are resolved.

Well it seems the length and weight and tip issues have been pretty much figured out thanks to Dan and Michael. 300 grains for the 458, 350 for the .500, 225 for the 375, 210 for the 9,3, what's left is the 416 and the others should not be hard to figure out based on the testing done now. A 250 grain 416 Raptor at a .206 SD sounds about right.

Hey Boomer,
Not only is it the last breath but with all the blood vessels in the lungs shot to hell the blood pressure has to drop a lot.

I just want a trophy size Crock. Nice skull mount on the wall with some belly leather on the seat of my motorcycle.

Cheers, John

Remember that noncon that Michael used on his crock the head just about exploded lol. A high velocity head shot on a crock with the hollow end of the Raptor and you will have a mess on a head shot lol. Maybe shoot the crock in the head with the flat point side.

BBW#13 NonCon and NonCon end of the Raptor is the deadliest, most devastating, trauma inducing, bullet I have ever used, seen, or heard of. I have never seen as much internal damage done by a bullet in my entire life of shooting. Last year they were incredible on buffalo. This year 15 different thin skinned animals fell to the Raptors in both 9.3 and .500 caliber. 1/2 or so falling on the spot to never get up or move again, even pure lung shots many dropped in their tracks. 4 Wildebeast, 3 zebra, 3 impala, 2 oryx, 1 eland, 2 blesbok. I love shooting wildebeast and zebra, wildebeast are the next thing under a buffalo, tough. As are zebra, very tough.

1st Wildebeast dropped to the 9.3 B&M 210 Raptor, about 50 yds, frontal, dropped on the spot. No autopsy on that one.

2 hartebeast 2 rounds, about a 100 yds with the 9.3. Shot one, down on the spot, never moved, lung shot. Second stood looking at his buddy. I was shooting from a tree, had already broken a stick that was 2 inches in front of the muzzle for the hartebeast on the left that was down, now moving the muzzle to the right for the 2cd beast, I shot the stick 2 inches in front of the muzzle, watched dust kick up 25 yds in front of me. Beast does not move! Hit him,, another lung shot, he turns runs 5 yds behind a bush and falls over. Stone Cold. Autopsy showed both lung shots, both had blades going thru lungs, and both had blades go all the way through to the other side. Have photos of bullet exit, and blades surrounding about 4-5 inches from center on the opposite chest cavity wall. Pretty neat--just like in the test work, only better! Massive blood loss and tissue damage--just like the test work, only better!

Made a mistake on the angle of an impala--which I did have issues on angles, seems half the time I only see 2 dimensions! Hit impala with 9.3 about 60-70 yds--hit in the left rear ham, bullet exited behind the lungs far side. Impala goes 40 yds or so, and is down for the count. I did fire a finish shot--one of only two on this trip. Impala could not get up it was down for good.


More tomorrow. Still in Africa, getting ready to fly home tomorrow evening. Be home on Monday, a few days to catch up, then I will process photos and show you some very ugly photos. So it is going to be mid week or so before photos are ready, sorry!

Gotta go, catch you guys tomorrow.
Michael

Michael,

Sounds like a great hunt and wonderful performance - as expected - from the BBW#13 NonCons. Hope the family reunion was a grand affair for everyone. We are all anxious, as you might expect, to see the pics of the necropsies.

Here's to a safe return.

Michael, Really appreciate your reports. I did not doubt the Raptor's capability, but it is nice to have field reports.
Max

Safe travels to you and your family. Great hunts.

I look forward to your more extensive reporting upon your return.

I hope you got the animal reaction you were looking for and felt the pride of being the first to safari with these and all the fond memories you need to draw you back to Africa.

Mike

Thanks pal. Fortunately the family reunion was right up front before the hunting, over with quickly! HEH..... But fun none the less as well!

I have a funny I heard about South Africans. You know South Africans like meat! They have meat for breakfast, meat for lunch, meat for dinner! If they want vegetables in between they eat chicken! LOL................. I think it's true!


Over some period of time we have learned a lot about how the NonCons work. Naturally being Non Conventional, they do not work like conventional bullets in any way. They do shed weight, but they gain penetration. Unlike conventional bullets. I see some folks have a hard time relating to some of this, as did I in the beginning. I have heard some folks compare that performance to a Nosler Partition. These are NOTHING like a Nosler Partition. Loosing the nose of the bullet is in no way a comparison to the NOnCon and how they work.

Things we now know--as the blades shear off the bullet they always move in a star pattern away from the bullet as penetration increases. For that first part of penetration when the blades shear for roughly 4 or so inches of the beginning of penetration and blade separation those blades are working with the main bullet ripping, tearing that elastic tissue making a permanent very large wound channel, far larger and more deadly than any conventional bullet can accomplish, or at least more than I have ever seen or worked with. At that point the blades start to move further away from center and become small slicing projectiles. The blades are not large enough to "push" their way thru tissue like a bullet, but rather slice their way through. Penetration of the blades is far beyond what it should be, but because of this slicing rather than pushing it is so. The blades have enough action to slice through and into any internal organs and do so causing secondary blood loss, tissue damage, cutting vitals, vessels, and anything they come in contact with, while the center bullet remains to penetrate, unlike a conventional bullet that is rounded and soft, these remaining NonCons are jagged, ugly, like a broken beer bottle ripping and tearing their way through tissue causing far greater trauma and tissue damage than a conventional bullet that has merely wiped it's nose off. It's ugly, I can show you these in the photos.

Now I have realized yet another factor about the NonCons and how they work. As we know exit wound channels of conventional bullets are always larger than entrance wound channels. Par for the course, the NonCons are opposite and reversed. The NonCon entrance wounds and channels to beyond the vitals are very devastating, large, and under normal circumstances would appear to be exits. I have some entrances into the chest cavity that are 4 + inches across, massive damage, massive holes. They also don't give a damn what is in the way, bone, meat, anything they go right through like a meat grinding drill. Anything in the way of this is totally destroyed.

On animals that were hit in the chest cavity and chose to run did not make it far, and were found stone cold dead after the big last run. I hit a zebra with the 9.3 in the lungs, it made a mad dash for about 50 yards, died on it's feet and hitting the dirt making a huge dust cloud. One wildebeast hit with the 9.3 top of the heart shot, made a last mad dash for about 50 yards, stone cold, and sure every drop of blood left was in the chest cavity. Same with an eland that was hit top of the heart with the 500, mad dash 50 yds, stone cold long before I could get there. No finish shots. Massive, massive blood loss and damage done to internal organs.

If one proclaims that they never miss a shot, I figure it this way, they don't do much shooting, or they are just plain liars. Well, I miss from time to time, for whatever reason it is so. I had a wildebeast standing facing me, 60-70 yards, whatever I did, I missed him completely with the 500 MDM and the 350 Raptor. It was a big open area and he made a mad dash out of there. He was running like a race horse I tell you, and I am not a running animal shooting, at least not that far out for sure, maybe inside 25 yds, but not much of a shot at something running full tilt bogey at 60-70 yds. I got lined up on him anyway, thought I was far enough ahead of him and turned a 350 Raptor Loose on him. It hit, loud thumping noise, visible hit right in front of the right rear leg, straight into the guts. CRAP!!!!! I knew better, wanted to kick my own ass for doing something so stupid. I knew we were in for a day of it from that point. The day was shot to hell for sure as it was going to be a long and hard followup.

So we got started, tracking and then turned the dog loose on him. It was not 2 minutes after turning Andrews dog Ruger loose that he was barking. Andrew and I both looked at each other and took off. When we arrived we had covered probably 300 yards and there lay the wildebeast, stone cold dead! Looking at the exit it was at a bit of an angle and I thought it must have hit a portion of the rear left lung and that had surely brought the animal to a stop. We took some photos, loaded this one up with the previous wildebeast taken very clean with the 9.3 and went to the skinning shed with them.

After getting everything out we discovered the gut shot beast had no immediate vital damages, none to the lungs, none to the heart, nothing in the front touched. The bullet had traveled through the guts, stomach, blades had hit the kidney, maybe the liver and things like that. These parts were a bloody damn mess. There was massive blood loss from the shot. I have a photo of this mess next to clean healthy stomach and guts of the beast taken with the 9.3 cleanly. There you will see a big difference in this mass of internal things!! A mess it was. Gut shot wildebeast down in 300 yards stone cold. I had never heard of such a thing before.

This brings me right back to last year and that buffalo that I did not see correctly and gut shot the hell out of him as well! He pulled up sick inside 100 yards and stood there while I walked around to get a shot at less than 20 yds before deciding to take off, which I was able to get a NonCon in the front end then and it was over inside 10 yds. That bullet made that buff very very sick to pull up and stop inside a 100 yds! Also not heard of.

For some reason I shot high on this trip. Only one heart shot. Nearly all the rest were top of the heart and lung shots. Especially the impala. I have a very difficult time seeing those little things and the angles they are standing. Why? I don't know. I shot one impala, probably 75-80 yds something like that. With the 9.3 and the 210 Raptor he dropped on the spot, never moved again. Shot was a little high, but did not appear to be a spine shot. Back at skinning, the shot had taken a 2-3 inch section of the spine completely out! Gone, along with large entrance and exit on this one. A complete section of the spine just gone, have photos of that as well.

The only other animal that did not get an autopsy was the last zebra I shot. Again, 9.3 and the 210 Raptor. One of those wait situations, thick brush, waiting for a shot. Zebra stepped out just enough that I could get the angle and see the right shoulder, standing slightly away from me. Opportunity came when all other zebra cleared, nothing in front, nothing behind. I actually saw the angle perfect and knew the bullet would hit the shoulder, exit in front of the far shoulder. Bam! Zebra dipped, and mad dash with the herd. Good hit, I had never seen a blood trail like this, I don't know how much blood an animal like this has in their body, but following this trail I was sure it was all on the ground, everywhere. He had stopped for a second, and we saw the blood pumping out the front like a fountain, continuously! He did not go too far before coming down, I did put a second shot into him, although not needed, I wanted this finished for the sake of the animal. Another 5-10 seconds it would have been over anyway. I am quite sure there could not have been a drop of blood left in this animal. A blind man could have followed the blood.

As I go through the photos when I get home I am sure I will remember more about each incident.

There were no bullets recovered, no 210 9.3 Raptors, no 350 .500 Raptors. All complete pass through regardless of angles. The deepest penetration recorded with the .500 350 Raptor was 3 feet, point of the shoulder oryx busting a tremendous hole through the shoulder, crunching every bone there it seems, passing through and exiting just in front of the right rear leg. The 210 9.3 Raptor easy passed through 2 to 2.5 ft of everything shot, including 3 zebra and 2 wildebeast. I like penetration! I like exit holes. Dead is dead, but I am always more pleased with an exit than a recovered bullet. I don't care if one might have to wait a bit for a shot, or work a bit harder for a good shot making sure that there is no issue behind the target, I believe in penetration and will make that sacrifice for what I believe is superior performance and more tissue destroyed. I do NOT WANT A LIMITED PENETRATION BULLET. Ya'll can do what you want, I really don't care, but for me, it's about PENETRATION, and it always has been that way for me.

I have to say that while all the Raptors are Light For Caliber, they are not Light On Penetration. When thinking bullets I think buffalo. I would not intentionally go to the field with a light for caliber bullet to hunt buffalo. But, in this particular case I know that either of these bullets would have no issues at all getting into the vitals of a buffalo, and most likely exit as well. I have not worked the SD of any of the Raptors, many of you have, I just have not been that concerned with the SD and penetration of these bullets, all have met my requirements in the test work before leaving, and have proven themselves far beyond that in the field now. But I dare say, sort the low SD out with these, compare to other calibers, and if equal or better, they will also perform equal or better in the field. The light for caliber Raptors will out penetrate the heaviest of conventionals of the same caliber. This I am sure of.

In August for Australian buffalo I am taking the 9.3 and will load nothing but the Raptors. I am also taking the 50 and 475 Super Short out, both using light for caliber NonCons and solids. I have little concerns about penetration. My boys will operate the Super Shorts and the 9.3, while I play with the 475 B&M and many of it's bullets, including the various North Forks we have designed in that caliber, along with the BBW#13s. For the next 3 months I will be concentrating my efforts to POI with several bullets from Cutting Edge and North Fork for the buffalo trip in these calibers.

My search for Terminal Performance is complete now. It's been one hell of a journey to get here. I have been doing this for 15 years or better. Early years just testing bullets for performance, taking various ones to the field. Since 2006 I have been on a mission to get proper bullets for heavy dangerous game in .500 caliber for my various .500 caliber cartridges. I needed bullets to make these work proper. This started a hell of a mission, first with the solids, and now finishing up with the various expanding or trauma producing bullets. I am there. And I have to say far better than I expected in the beginning.

The beginning of the .500 mission was bleak to say the least. I was working with a couple of small individuals with cup and core. It did not work. In fact I had one fellow make several variations. Of all these variations of jackets, bonding, noses, and all the designs I had a 20% success rate. On the first trip here to Africa in 2006 I chose not to use this bullet at all. The fellow got a little pissed off with me, and actually told me since I did not use the bullet so he could get some press out of it that he did not care to work with me any longer. I explained that I understood, but he must also understand I am not going to the field with a bullet that only has a 20% success rate in the test work. Not in this lifetime. So we parted ways. JD Jones stepped up and introduced me to CNC bullets. North Fork stepped up big time working with me for proper designs. And now Dan Smitchko Cutting Edge Bullets have also stepped up to the plate and has worked with all of us to bring the most deadly bullet ever used to the field!

Where am I in all this? There are many good conventional expanding bullets. I have used Swift, Woodleigh, Barnes TSX, all with success. All good bullets in the conventional field. Choose those wisely and pay attention to how they work. Woodleighs are soft, but very good for many purposes, don't over speed them. Swift and Barnes, excellent bullets and can handle extra velocity. North Fork bonded Premiums would be my first choice today for many reasons in the conventional field. One, they are superb, can handle velocity, and are as good as any conventional premium bullet ever made. As velocity increases, so does the North Forks penetration. Unlike most all other conventionals as velocity increases, penetration decreases, not so with the North Forks--big plus in my book. Another thing, the Boys at North Fork are dedicated to our needs, and they are fine gentlemen that I like personally as well. Excellent Bullet, excellent folks behind the bullet, and dedicated to our needs, not just out to sell and market bullets. For Conventional Premium Bullets--North Fork all the way! Support them, they support us.

Solids? BBW#13 is the best I have ever worked with, or seen. Just behind, and getting close, North Fork. And I am very interested in getting my hands on the new design North Fork Solids with a nose profile similar to the BBW#13. All my current North Forks are the original design, very good, but I am betting on the new North Fork Design as being superior to the old. There is no need to search any further than these two bullets for the solids. They have everything going for them, and the people behind the bullet support YOUR NEEDS. I don't think that Hornady or Barnes give a damn about you and your needs, I think they are in the bullet market to sell whatever and however they can, performance does not enter that equation. Sorry, but that is what it seems to me. I am not in the bullet business, don't want to be, my entire search has been for a bullet that would meet my needs for my rifles for my cartridges in the field. Cutting Edge BBW#13s, and North Fork meets that need, and exceeds it in the extreme. End of Solid Search.

Expanding Trauma producing Bullet? BBW#13 NonCon or Raptor. Search complete. Over, done, end of story. The only other bullet that I want to check out in the field is the Expanding Cup Points that I worked with North Fork on for the various B&M cartridges. These bullets provide the penetration I want, far more than conventionals and I am sure will do a great job for what I want. I hope to be using some of these on the Australian buffalo in August, along with the BBW#13 NonCons. End of search, over, finished, it does not get better than this, not for me. Ya'll believe it, or not, I know, been there done it. Choose as you wish. Beware however, should you choose to use some of these Cutting Edge BBW#13s, the rest of you bullet stock for the field will become "Obsolete" and of very little use. You are best off at that point to sell them off cheap to the "Non-Believers", and restock with BBW#13s or the Various improved North Forks! Once you have been to the field with these, you really won't want anything else.

As for terminals the biggest project I see in the next few weeks to months with the rifle bullets is to get low velocity shear points for each of the BBW#13 NonCons and Raptors--I have made big progress in that direction already, guess about 1/2 the way there. Also, the tips, to investigate low velocity shear with and without the various new designed tips. That will pretty much wrap up terminal performance with our various rifles as far as I am concerned.

I suppose we will find another direction in which to work in terminals, I already have some ideas, as does Hog killer, boomy, and Dan concerning some proper handgun bullets. But not until all the rifle work is completed and set in stone, these Raptors have been a bitch, and have worn me out, but we are nearly there with them now.

Signing off for now, and most likely catch you guys on Tuesday or so.

Michael

quote:

As for terminals the biggest project I see in the next few weeks to months with the rifle bullets is to get low velocity shear points for each of the BBW#13 NonCons and Raptors--I have made big progress in that direction already, guess about 1/2 the way there. Also, the tips, to investigate low velocity shear with and without the various new designed tips. That will pretty much wrap up terminal performance with our various rifles as far as I am concerned.

Great results. You have truly accomplished what you set out to find. We are all in your debt.

Of course, some people can see things beyond 100 yards, and their mission will continue until we have functioning Raptors with the highest BC possible, both for magazins and single-loading first shots. Dan of CEB is a believer in having bullets that are capable of flat trajectory and long range, which means those less common, 250-400 yard shots for Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Mike

I suppose we will find another direction in which to work in terminals, I already have some ideas, as does Hog killer, boomy, and Dan concerning some proper handgun bullets.

Michael

Please be careful of ALL the laws, state and federal, and legal interpertations on hand gun bullets. Further, don't draw the federal government's attention to this work. You never know what they will rule. IMO, if you don't really need to do handgun bullet work for some special reason, leave it alone.

I would love to see the work tech that hase been deviloped in the noncons used in Shotgun Slugs. I think it will happen.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
I would love to see the work tech that hase been deviloped in the noncons used in Shotgun Slugs. I think it will happen.

Cheers, John

John,

Hubel - over on the 12 Ga from Hell thread - has identified sabot sleeves that can be used with your own bullets that properly seperate from the bullet. Hopefully someone will commence manufacturing them in the near future. Then all that'll be required is perhaps a slightly larger HP diameter in properly sized a weighted CEB BBW#13 HP NonCons to assure petal shearing at shotgun velocities and you'll be good to go!

Added: In fact...the CEB website indicates that In September 2011 Dan was perfecting a .400 240gr HP Spitzer for use as a sabot'd muzzleloader bullet.

Doc M,
Congratulations on your latest successful research efforts. Theory is now reality.
Safe travel home.

IBT,
Good caution about handguns and the feds.

Phatman,
How about the latest in high tech muzzle loader "conicals?" Wow! This could certainly be applied to shotgun slugs.
Latest developments for the muzzle loader is this .50-cal:



I did not ask Dan, Nate, and Durvin about the actual diameter (compared to the sabot-slug or patched .495 lead ball it would replace),
but above are seen two versions, higher BC on the left, stubby on the right.
It is a two-pice projectile.
The tip blows open an internally scored and undercut forward portion of the base.
Get a load of the knurling on the bearing portion of the shank.
That is a lot of precision work on one bullet.



Above: Iphone focus on Dan and Nate Smitchko during a TV interview at the 2012 NRA Show in St. Louis.
Below: Dan and Durvin (Trapper) Wick, R&D for CEB.



And here is what that new .500-cal/350-grainer looks like next to the old 400-grainer.
The 350-grainer worked well on eland and everything else, eh?

I see the top secret project is now released to the public. Dan and I worked on this idea in Vegas. The exploding base penetrating metal tip that works as a cam. It's a great idea that Dan yet again made a reality. More of this stuff to come.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I see the top secret project is now released to the public. Dan and I worked on this idea in Vegas. The exploding base penetrating metal tip that works as a cam. It's a great idea that Dan yet again made a reality. More of this stuff to come.

If you have to reload with a ramrod, might as well make the first shot count for the most possible.
And surely it is tough enough to not fragment when being seated.
Lubed? And what bullet diameter versus land and groove diameters, in the commomn 1:28" conical twist 50-cal?
R&D proceeds ...

That's a devastating bullet on the left.

I'm guessing that it will be about 370 grains when cut at .510". Do we add the grains of the tip making 381 grains?

And it would make my 500AccR as flat-shooting as my Rigby. The animals on the plain will jump for joy.

-

Some followup on the new bullet.

A 381 grain in .510" would be a .209 BC. Well, if that exits from all game then it is not too light.

The BC might be, say, .360. That's just a guess from eyeballing the shape and considering its bore. (Larger calibre have better BC's than the little 22s.)

Using that guestimated BC of .360 I did a quick look at trajectory. The 500AccR will easily handle 2801fps, which is only 6637 ftlb.

Sighted in at 2.0" for 100 yards leaves it zeroed for 200 yards and -8" low at 300, -24" low at 400 yards, just like many popular flat-shooting cartridges with their heavier bullets.

That should work. Up close and way out there, and everything in between.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I see the top secret project is now released to the public. Dan and I worked on this idea in Vegas. The exploding base penetrating metal tip that works as a cam. It's a great idea that Dan yet again made a reality. More of this stuff to come.

If you have to reload with a ramrod, might as well make the first shot count for the most possible.
And surely it is tough enough to not fragment when being seated.
Lubed? And what bullet diameter versus land and groove diameters, in the commomn 1:28" conical twist 50-cal?
R&D proceeds ...

Well this idea was thinking for the handgun bullet and Dan saw the great need for the muzzle loader and high BC muzzle loader. I would think it would not sheer being stuffed down. Part of the thinking was four petals would sheer better than six requiring less force to sheer four seams than six. Also four petals would have more weight to cut and penetrate. With such a huge hole or thin petals the front end would be so light and the center of gravity would be too far back. With the metal tip the center of gravity would be more foreword. The metal tip would act like a cam and piston to ensure sheer AND be a projectile and not just a light plastic tip.

quote:

penetrating metal tip that works as a cam. It's a great idea that Dan yet again made a reality. More of this stuff to come.

We'll be watching. It will work in centerfire, too.

"I am very interested in getting my hands on the new design North Fork Solids with a nose profile similar to the BBW#13. All my current North Forks are the original design, very good, but I am betting on the new North Fork Design as being superior to the old."

Michael:

I didn't know that the North Fork solids had and old and new design. Are the ones on their website now the new design?

P.S. I agree with some of the posts above. Please, stay away from the pistol bullets!

There is no problem with copper pistol bullets.

DocM,

Welcome back! Great stuff...waiting to hear/see more

Regards

Welcome back Michael. Hope work will leave you alone for a few days so you can rest up!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
There is no problem with copper pistol bullets.

Tell that to Barnes.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
There is no problem with copper pistol bullets.

Tell that to Barnes.

+1

DocM,

The peanut gallery is anxious!
I am glad you had a great trip and Diana was good to you...now: DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS Lol

Warm regards

Whenever you get caught up the peanuts are restless.

As they say....the natives are getting restless

Hey Boys

Sorry, I know you want to see some photos of guts and such, I have them. However, Sunday after my post from Pretoria I contracted a stomach virus, and it has been rather ugly. I have been down since then, feeling somewhat better this morning. It was a very difficult trip home, being sick and what have you. I fly Delta, great flight, short, no stop overs like SAA, roughly 14 hours each way, good folks, but still being sickly not much fun. I was quite sure Monday night that I would not see another sunrise, bid my farewells to the world, heh heh and so on! However, I was wrong, and seems after some death sweats, hugging the toilet from both sides, I might be getting past it! Have not had anything I could keep down in over 72 hours now, so a bit on the weak side right now, have not even unpacked the rifles.

On top of all this, Atlanta Customs were at the top of their game of being professional ASSHOLES, as normal! I hate Atlanta Customs! What a bunch of 1st Class PRICKS!!!!!!! I have run through Customs in many areas of the US--All nice folks, courteous, friendly, even helpful, never ever once an issue anywhere in the US--Except Atlanta GA!!!! And they ARE ALWAYS ASSWIPE PRICKS GRADE A NUMBER 1! Has been for years this way too. This time, they did not disappoint me either.

We came in with the rifles of course, go to Customs, they put your passport and declaration in a plastic sleeve, send you to a special area. Arrive with about 3-4 other hunters at the same time. 20 Customs Agents standing around, playing Solitare on the Computers I suppose, put the plastic folder in a holder. Now one would ASSUME that you would take the first ones that arrive, first of course. Not so. After standing for 30 minutes, no one is called up, no one is checked, all just waiting. Here comes another group of hunters, 6-7 I suppose. Take their folders, put them in line behind our folders. In 2 minutes, they called the last guy that came in, he waited 2 minutes. OK, fine. Next, the one just in front of him, then another that just walked in. Now myself, and the others that have already waited for 45 minutes look at each other, somewhat bewildered. I ask one of the agents over, and ask why those guys were taken, we have to wait???

His reply "We take them as we wish, We don't like having these "Weapons" in here and we want to get them out of here, and will have them all out in 10 minutes" Then he added this "I can also MAKE SURE YOURS IS LAST IF YOU LIKE ME TO" OH SHIT--This PISSED ME OFF TO NO END, Sick as well. I replied to him "THANK YOU THANK YOU--You do not disappoint me at all--I would expect Nothing less from the likes of YOU" I added that we had already been there for 45 minutes, I had already missed my connecting flight, and to go ahead take the rest of the day! He then directed me to have a seat, I declined, told him I had been seated for 14 hours and was not inclined to sit any longer! Arrogant PRICK! GD Useless Bastard!

Another 30 minutes--Way past the 10 minutes my man stated, of which I let him know promptly as well--made it thru, checked the rifles, 4457 and that bull shit, and had to rebook the flight home, of course. This delayed our getting home at 10 am until 3 pm that afternoon, thanks again Customs Atlanta! I HATE THOSE BASTARDS!!!!! Useless they are! I have a good friend here in MB that is a Customs Agent, fine fellow, do anything for him- He comes here to the compound, shoots on occasion, signs off on my 4457s, brings his stamps and all! I tell him about these assholes in Atlanta, he thinks they are a joke as well! No reason for that he says! Had I not been sick I should have got this assholes name, ID number and caused him some issues, I just was not thinking.

Do what I can soon as I can. I am in a death sweat right now, pouring down! Probably getting pissed at Customs again!
M