Michael,

Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperos New Year to you and yours. I am enjoying this thread emensely and learning alot. Still have many questions about bullet performance for next year so we wont get bored.

Many thanks for all of your hard and time consuming work that is benefiting all of us.

Still looking for that 416 for the new year

Sam et al ya'll take care also

FELIZ NAVIDAD Y VAYA CON DIOS, MI AMIGOS

SSR

Good Morning and Merry Christmas Cross L!

Thank you very much! I have many questions myself as we are all still students of "Terminal Bullet Performance"! I don't think we will get bored here, still miles to go, people to see, and bullets to investigate!

That 416 will come to you don't worry, I am sure you will figure it out, and now, with the new CEB BBW #13s, the 416 B&M is better than ever. HEH!!!!!!



Now, I did a little thing recently on NonCon Bullets over on the B&M site. I would love for some of you guys to go over, review it for me, and let me know if I need to add something or if I have it right, or if I forgot something there.

Direct Link

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Let me know!

And Merry Christmas to all of you and yours!

Michael

I don't think we will get bored, Santa might bring me some new Bastard files. Any ideas!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!

This has got to be one of the best threads ever on this site. I still have not had a chance to go through all the pages. I like the info that has been introduced in the many pages. I have to say outstanding work Michael!!! It would be interesting to see some smaller calibers (For North America game) to see how they perform, as they would be considerably lighter and traveling faster. EG. a 180gr fired from a 300 ultra mag at 3200fps. I have on order a 416 ultra mag and would love to try something out of the box up here. But it has to be expanding for moose ,elk and bear.

Merry Christmas to all.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Not to worry though, Michael is working on a bullet which changes from cup & core to monometal FN to Non-Con to rubber mid trajectory so you guys will have a perfect bullet for all situations on all game whether ficticious or otherwise.

Mac J

You were not supposed to tell this yet! What's with you? This was a "Top Secret" "Need to Know Only" project!!!!!!!!

Well, now that you let the cat out the bag;

OK, I have been working on a secret Hollow Base, liquid metal, bullet! While in the case it remains solid in a CEB BBW #13 Solid configuration--67% meplat. Once it is fired and exits the muzzle it goes to it's liquid form from midway of the bullet all the way to the end of the nose, solid in the rear, with hollow base containing a small jet pack for tremendous velocity boost via remote control. With it's on board heads up flight system, it recognizes the intended target. Input into the chip in it's tiny brain are the following dangerous game animals, Elephant, hippo, buffalo, lion, leopard and the great bears! Once the target is recognized, and the angle at which the target is presenting, the nose shape changes to one of 4 configurations, a CEB BBW #13 Solid, or a #13 Hollow Point with .400 cavity, or a #13 Hollow Point with a .800 deep cavity, or a cup point. The chip in the brain of the bullet is able to recognize the target first, then the angle of which the target presents, and then chooses the correct nose profile for optimum transfer of trauma and penetration. It has the capability of recognizing an "INNOCENT" bystander than may be behind the target, and can also change configuration inside the target once OPTIMUM penetration has been achieved. There is a small charge of explosives in the middle of the Hollow Base, but this is a optional add on. Once within 25 yards of the target the small rocket booster kicks in to add another 2000 fps in velocity.

Now another option for this bullet, although it is a little expensive, is the "Optional Radar Tracking", once the bullet has locked onto the target, should that target run, or go into heavy brush, the radar unit kicks on and tracks the animal until it makes it's final run. This is a little expensive right now, but we hope to get several million units out there, and then the price can come down some.

Right now the current price is averaging around 1.2 Million US dollars per unit, or each. Once we get the system up and running then I am sure that price will drop some.

I really think this is the "Miracle Bullet" of the future. We are working on one currently that is "Safe" for double rifles as well. These will be available in calibers from .458 to .620 caliber to begin with. Currently the technology is not small enough yet to put in minor calibers like 416 or less! We are working on this.

This bullet does come with a 100% guarantee as well! Should it not perform exactly as you wish it to perform, then please recover it and send it back to us and we will replace it for you. ( Did I mention the automatic self destruct device?)



MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

Michael

doc mike

have you been hitting the egg nog a bit early, you know damn well that the chip will be destroying the barrels of any double rifle.

NOW how many double rifles have you been shooting with this contraption

marry christmas mate, and hopefully we will share a campfire in 2011

peter

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I don't think we will get bored, Santa might bring me some new Bastard files. Any ideas!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!

OH NO--NOT MORE BASTARD FILES!!!!!

I see it is going to be busy here on the compound next year!!!!!

HEH

Merry Christmas My Friend!

M

FredB

Welcome!!!!!! And Merry Christmas to ya!

Thank you for all the kind words, we have had a big time on this thread, and I know I have learned alot and continue to do so every week!

I will have to leave the small bore stuff up to someone else! I can't get an interest up! We did a lot of work some time ago with 338 caliber and pretty much what applies to 338 would apply as well to smaller bores.

I have not used any NonCons in small bores, as I rarely even pick up a small bore rifle. I have no doubt whatsoever, results would be far advanced over conventionals as well.

416 Ultra! I lurked around your thread up there--I really think you made a good and easy choice, and while I may get bashed for this, I would rather have that than a Rigby myself! Of the 416s however, I still prefer my little 416 B&M. These new 416 NonCons will be absolute hammers in that ultra case---we must get some to you!!!!!! Have your twist rate done at 1:12 if you can--this will be much better with the 400 gr solids! Also, we will do a 400 gr CEB BBW #13 solid and it's companion NonCon soon! Your Ultra is going to be something with those!!!!! For bear, elk, moose, that 325 CEB BBW #13 HP will do anything you can think of and will slam those to the dirt!

Thanks again! Stay with us now!



Peterdk

My good friend, I got a very very nice Christmas Email from you earlier this morning--Thank you, very lovely, and in that photo I think I saw a big brass solid?? HEH!

No nog yet--but getting ready to fall in on it--add a little Grey Goose to the nog!

Now I told everyone that we were still working on the "Double Safe" version of the new BBW #13 Liquid Metal Bullet! I kept some of those big 12 Bores of yours to experiment with the chip. At 1.2 Million dollars each, I have not tested them yet. But, I was thinking of doing the first runs of double rifle tests in some of Sam's rifles, I hope we don't have a pre-mature explosion or anything? Hmmmmm?


I Have tested one of the New BBW #13 Liquid Metal bullets, only one. It became confused when it did not see a Dangerous Game Animal--It saw the two penetration boxes, and the 10 foot deep berm behind them. So it changed to a BBW #13 Solid, 67% meplat, kicked in the after burners just before impact, driving through the two penetration boxes comletely (DEAD STRAIGHT TOO), through the 10 ft berm, through the 2 ft concrete retaining walls, out the back of the range, another 2 ft concrete wall, passing through a forest of pine trees, some very large, and right now I have a crew that is continuing to track the bullet, it has now left the state of South Carolina and is approaching the borders of North Carolina and Virginia! We have been lucky no one has been hurt;

Oh Crap, we just got a radar update, and the bullet has now taken a severe Northerly turn, and has increased velocity as well. Wait, getting an elevation change too, seems it has locked onto something in the Far North? Crap, I hope it's not Santa and those damned deer? People, Christmas may be in jeopardy! This bullet won't stop with frontals on a few deer?




Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I don't think we will get bored, Santa might bring me some new Bastard files. Any ideas!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!

Sam if the new Bastard files are as good as the ones that cut the original SAM Profile and the BBW #13s it’ll be an interesting and productive 2011!

A Safe and Very Merry Christmas to All!

peterdk;

We dont shoot double rifles over here-we slips up on them, knocks them on the head and drags them home to the lil lady



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:

quote:

Not a lot of difference between the original test and this one. All shrapnel found within or close to center wound channel, devastating and lot's of trauma to target, dead straight penetration of the remaining slugs, and penetration more than adequate for mission at hand, in fact this penetration would be adequate for buffalo, and most likely NOT EXIT on broadside.

Michael

Ok, I have been following this post with great interest for some time now but have never posted but the quote on top made me jump in. The bullet looks to be like a real killer and should drop most game alsmot on the spot especially on softer skinned game. But I don't think personally that it should be used on tough skinned game like buffalo without a exit it will be difficult to track down a wounded buffalo as a result of bad shot placement and it will be more difficult to try hit vitals on angled shots. Yes it was devstating on the buffalo above but would it have had the same impact if the buffalo was hit in the gut ?

This only relates to the Undercut bullets and I suppose the buffalo above was not shot with these but with the Non Con Bullets.

I can not Overemphasize how much easier the job is of tracking if we have a decent exit wound and blood flowing on game being followed. Except for the obvious tracks it tells a story and gives you an idea on where an animal was hit.

What is interesting to me is the linking of having an exit wound to the size of the blood trail. With a noncon I wonder about that.

Is an exit wound necessary for a good blood trail if the bullet is a noncon?

Very difficult to test! Maybe some field observations would be useful?

If the noncom increases the probability of the animal being quickly put down, the question becomes more Intriguing.

What is the trade off between increasing the probability of putting the animal down quickly and a lesser blood trail (if there is a lesser blood trail)?

Finally, all these bullets are tied into a package with a light, almost carbine like rifle, that handles easily and points quickly thereby increasing the possibility of a "perfect" first shoot. The bullet performance is rifle independent but the hunter performance is not.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Not to worry though, Michael is working on a bullet which changes from cup & core to monometal FN to Non-Con to rubber mid trajectory so you guys will have a perfect bullet for all situations on all game whether ficticious or otherwise.

Mac J

You were not supposed to tell this yet! What's with you? This was a "Top Secret" "Need to Know Only" project!!!!!!!!

Well, now that you let the cat out the bag;

OK, I have been working on a secret Hollow Base, liquid metal, bullet! While in the case it remains solid in a CEB BBW #13 Solid configuration--67% meplat. Once it is fired and exits the muzzle it goes to it's liquid form from midway of the bullet all the way to the end of the nose, solid in the rear, with hollow base containing a small jet pack for tremendous velocity boost via remote control. With it's on board heads up flight system, it recognizes the intended target. Input into the chip in it's tiny brain are the following dangerous game animals, Elephant, hippo, buffalo, lion, leopard and the great bears! Once the target is recognized, and the angle at which the target is presenting, the nose shape changes to one of 4 configurations, a CEB BBW #13 Solid, or a #13 Hollow Point with .400 cavity, or a #13 Hollow Point with a .800 deep cavity, or a cup point. The chip in the brain of the bullet is able to recognize the target first, then the angle of which the target presents, and then chooses the correct nose profile for optimum transfer of trauma and penetration. It has the capability of recognizing an "INNOCENT" bystander than may be behind the target, and can also change configuration inside the target once OPTIMUM penetration has been achieved. There is a small charge of explosives in the middle of the Hollow Base, but this is a optional add on. Once within 25 yards of the target the small rocket booster kicks in to add another 2000 fps in velocity.

Now another option for this bullet, although it is a little expensive, is the "Optional Radar Tracking", once the bullet has locked onto the target, should that target run, or go into heavy brush, the radar unit kicks on and tracks the animal until it makes it's final run. This is a little expensive right now, but we hope to get several million units out there, and then the price can come down some.

Right now the current price is averaging around 1.2 Million US dollars per unit, or each. Once we get the system up and running then I am sure that price will drop some.

I really think this is the "Miracle Bullet" of the future. We are working on one currently that is "Safe" for double rifles as well. These will be available in calibers from .458 to .620 caliber to begin with. Currently the technology is not small enough yet to put in minor calibers like 416 or less! We are working on this.

This bullet does come with a 100% guarantee as well! Should it not perform exactly as you wish it to perform, then please recover it and send it back to us and we will replace it for you. ( Did I mention the automatic self destruct device?)



MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

Michael

Exploding Mercury capsules with floating tungsten penetrator. I'll take 387 boxes please.

IBT CApo
and of course Mac J


Merry Christmas Boys

Egg nong and Greay Goose is good

Wash down with Some beer, II like Dos Equis, Can't spell that right now.

Yippie

OK< now, got your order Mac J' 387 boxes, X18 each, 1.2 million per, Hmmmm? OK, maybe I do this later!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
IBT CApo
and of course Mac J


Merry Christmas Boys

Egg nong and Greay Goose is good

Wash down with Some beer, II like Dos Equis, Can't spell that right now.

Yippie

OK< now, got your order Mac J' 387 boxes, X18 each, 1.2 million per, Hmmmm? OK, maybe I do this later!

M

Keep drinkin' that carb cleaner and you'll be blind AND grammaticleee challenged.

Michael,I added you to my buddies list for being a passionate and pleasant individual!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Michael,I added you to my buddies list for being a passionate and pleasant individual!

Why thank you Shootaway, I am honored! I have always included you as a bud anyway, even though I am sure you pull my chain from time to time! HEH.

Merry Christmas!


Well, the goose is dry, and thus am I.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:

quote:

Not a lot of difference between the original test and this one. All shrapnel found within or close to center wound channel, devastating and lot's of trauma to target, dead straight penetration of the remaining slugs, and penetration more than adequate for mission at hand, in fact this penetration would be adequate for buffalo, and most likely NOT EXIT on broadside.

Michael

Ok, I have been following this post with great interest for some time now but have never posted but the quote on top made me jump in. The bullet looks to be like a real killer and should drop most game alsmot on the spot especially on softer skinned game. But I don't think personally that it should be used on tough skinned game like buffalo without a exit it will be difficult to track down a wounded buffalo as a result of bad shot placement and it will be more difficult to try hit vitals on angled shots. Yes it was devstating on the buffalo above but would it have had the same impact if the buffalo was hit in the gut ?

This only relates to the Undercut bullets and I suppose the buffalo above was not shot with these but with the Non Con Bullets.

I can not Overemphasize how much easier the job is of tracking if we have a decent exit wound and blood flowing on game being followed. Except for the obvious tracks it tells a story and gives you an idea on where an animal was hit.

What is interesting to me is the linking of having an exit wound to the size of the blood trail. With a noncon I wonder about that.

Is an exit wound necessary for a good blood trail if the bullet is a noncon?

Very difficult to test! Maybe some field observations would be useful?

If the noncom increases the probability of the animal being quickly put down, the question becomes more Intriguing.

What is the trade off between increasing the probability of putting the animal down quickly and a lesser blood trail (if there is a lesser blood trail)?

Finally, all these bullets are tied into a package with a light, almost carbine like rifle, that handles easily and points quickly thereby increasing the possibility of a "perfect" first shoot. The bullet performance is rifle independent but the hunter performance is not.

IBT

I suppose it's back to reality now! Still in search of the "Perfect Bullet", which of course I am not sure there is such a thing, but we "Endeavor to Preserver".

2011 will be a big year in the field to study the effects this bullet has on buffalo and other game. I will be using nothing but NonCons this coming year, and will strive to get more out in the field for others to use as well.

As far as the big question---Exit or Not Exit, it is basically a moot point with the BBW #13 HPs, as I think all of them will exit broadside buffalo. severe angles? Dead broadside, they will go cross country, I am pretty sure.

The Standard issue CEB BBW #13 HP brass with an .400 deep cavity is THE BUFFALO bullet. This will shear, remaining slug will penetrate very deep, and straight. Far deeper penetration than any conventional ever tested, and deeper than other NonCons I have worked with.

Now it's time to take it to the field and start gathering field observations, like Dougs above, and data.

Nice touch, with the bullet tied to the B&M rifles--HEH HEH! I often think I am a bumbling market manager on this one! Had the B&Ms been a "profit" center, I should have kept the bullet/cartridge tied together, proprietary, and increased the performance of the cartridges greatly,which ties right back to the rifle/cartridge/bullet triad! HEH!!!!!! Too bad I am such a nice guy as to want everyone to have a chance at these with their favorite cartridge/rifle--even though everything is of course inferior as a DGR to a B&M DGR! But some folks just have not realized that YET!




In the meantime the "Lion Bullet" concept is still capturing my interest. And will continue to play with it.


The second part of what I mentioned earlier is on my mind as well, concerning the NonCons. Our NonCons work in two ways, either copper or brass. One is the consistent shear with blades/petals moving away from center wound channel, the other with blades/petals, shrapnel staying within or close to the center wound channel, and both with the remaining slug continuing to penetrate. Which transfers more trauma to target? I really don't know, I have used the NonCons quite a bit in the mode of everything remaining within center wound channel, and have seen these effects on Australian buffalo, and it is incredible. Doug, Sam and a few more have used the NonCons where blades move away from center wound channel, all with incredible transfer of trauma to target, and DRT results as well. I am not sure there will be or is a difference in trauma transfer to target, seems both have very deadly and final results. The other NonCon, the North Fork Expanding Cup Point, will be a center wound cavity only, but it does transfer a great deal of trauma to the test medium. I will be working with all three of these during 2011, and encourage everyone who wishes to give this a go to do so as well.

Truthfully, I think with these bullets, and good shot placement OF COURSE, the days of the invincible buffalo are numbered.

Michael

Merry Christmas Michael, Sam, Capo and all of the AR BB TBP thread.

As I recover from the Christmas celebration (which for any with a 10 and 3 year old, that means the wrapping, unwrapping and the following of dead-language hieroglyphic instructions), I wonder ...
when are these (solids at least) to go into production?

Thanks againeveryone - this has been a fantastic thread.

Please be careful and stay well in the coming days. To paraphrase Bailey "Biddness is good" but I don't need or want the biddness.

Paul

Merry Christmas Paul! Thank you!

Ohhh Christmas, yes, been playing the same game. While you mention 10 yr Olds and 3 yr olds, it has not changed around here at all with my 20 yr old, 17 yr old, and 7 yr old as well. In fact my 7 yr old decided last year Santa was fake, and her grandfather had been playing Santa since she was little! So this year, she decides SHE IS GOING TO BE SANTA--and did just that! HEH HEH< what a hoot!

The solids! Schedule--I have 458 450s on hand now, along with the 350 416s, and of course plenty of .500s. On order, scheduled delivery next week will be brass #13 Solids in .457 480 gr and .474 500 gr, 3+1 bands, Nitros with the slight increased space between the two bands up front. Soon as they arrive I will post them.

I would like to test the current brass 3+1 one more time in the 470 Nitro for barrel strain. That stays consistent then it's good to go. I will get more in place and on hand.

I really did not want to do this, but I believe in these projects strongly. I did a page on the B&M site with the bullets there listed with the prices I have on hand currently. Later this coming week my wife is going to set up a paypal system, and those bullets I have in hand can be bought and I will get them out to you guys. I don't really want to be in the bullet business and don't plan for this to be a long term thing right now. I will keep on hand all the bullets for the B&Ms specifically, just like I do die sets and other things specific to the B&Ms. As for the Nitros, and some other bullets, I don't think I will do that long term, but will to begin with to get things moving and running.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...llets-Available.html

Now don't overload me just yet. But if you have a request, email me, or a special order, email me, or a larger quantity email me. We can get things moving.

I have the current prices there on all the copper solids and noncons. I think this coming week I will get them on the brass, which will be less if you compare.

If the brass 3+1 bands remain at low barrel strain numbers that equal the copper,then I will most likely have more runs done in that configuration in other calibers very soon. While I have extreme confidence already, or I would not have ordered the .457 run for 450 Nitro, or the .474 run done for 470 Nitro, I still want one more little test to be 110% confident we don't go over on the barrel strains for the Nitros. As long as barrel strain is under the benchmark, a Woodleigh Soft Point, then I see zero reason not to proceed. I will do brass bullets mostly, but copper bullets can be done on special order if one desires, but they a good bit more expensive these days because of materials.

Michael

"In the meantime the "Lion Bullet" concept is still capturing my interest. And will continue to play with it.

The second part of what I mentioned earlier is on my mind as well, concerning the NonCons. Our NonCons work in two ways, either copper or brass. One is the consistent shear with blades/petals moving away from center wound channel, the other with blades/petals, shrapnel staying within or close to the center wound channel, and both with the remaining slug continuing to penetrate. Which transfers more trauma to target? I really don't know, I have used the NonCons quite a bit in the mode of everything remaining within center wound channel, and have seen these effects on Australian buffalo, and it is incredible. Doug, Sam and a few more have used the NonCons where blades move away from center wound channel, all with incredible transfer of trauma to target, and DRT results as well. I am not sure there will be or is a difference in trauma transfer to target, seems both have very deadly and final results. The other NonCon, the North Fork Expanding Cup Point, will be a center wound cavity only, but it does transfer a great deal of trauma to the test medium."

A few observations. I'm one of those who always wanted to but never did hunt Africa. But if this thread keeps up much longer, the wife had better start packing the bags!

The lion bullet. Please DO NOT develop a lion bullet that will fail on thick skined game. I promise you someone will use the lion bullet on thick skined game and critize its performance! You can go in the direction of a thin skinned game bullet, but have enough margin built in that thick skinned game will not cause bullet failure.

On the noncons. I would put the NF and the copper noncom in a similar catagory where increased trauma is in the area adjacent to the center wound channel. Increased trauma meaning shreding the flesh in and adjacent to the wound channel, regardless of type of flesh, causing massive destruction and bleeding. It is not likely that the flesh surrounding this wound channel will "spring back" and partially close the channel. The flesh gets ripped apart.

With the brass noncon, a different effect takes place. Once the pedals tare off, the remaining solid has a jagged nose which cuts and rips, no push aside effect here. Look at the pictures posted on this site and compare them to a solid in shape and smoothness. The pedals themselves become little ripers causing more tissue damage and bleeding in a expanded area around but beyond the flesh adjactent to the primary wound channel.

With a properly placed bullet, I doubt that one can observe the difference. The brass noncon does increase the area being traumatized. Perhaps this is of benefit if the shot is SLIGHTLY off. I can picture a case where the remaining solid part of the noncon is busy smashing bone while the pedals are off tearing up lungs or heart or veins.

So the question to me is does the NF cup point replace the soft up first or the solids in the mag for buff?

Hope everyone had a merry Christmas
and are recuperating.
BTW Michael-SAKI??? what on earth?

SSR

Michael458,

Are CEB #13 .620s of any flavor yet available or "on the way"?

Thanks

I hope everyone has had a safe and merry Christmas!

merry christmas to all

Does the new top secret bullet come in green I am tired of shiny bullets giving me away.I wanr mine in green or I am nor buying.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
merry christmas to all

Does the new top secret bullet come in green I am tired of shiny bullets giving me away.I wanr mine in green or I am nor buying.

JD

Just leave 'em in an old cardboard cartridge box in humid conditions for a few months and VOILA green bullets.

"Originally posted by Cross L:
So the question to me is does the NF cup point replace the soft up first or the solids in the mag for buff?

Hope everyone had a merry Christmas
and are recuperating.
BTW Michael-SAKI??? what on earth?"

Replaces the soft up first as do any of the other noncons. Solids in the magazine.

There is at least one african PH who claims that given modern bullet construction, there is no need at all for solids anymore. I really like the guy. Hope he has no reason to wish he hadn't said that.

Ok, I hope everybody had a great Christmas I sure had with family.

So lets get back to the point of blood trail I love to see blood on the ground and plenty of it after all lack of blood in animal leads to a lack of oxygen to the brain so the more blood you see the quicker an animal will keel over. When a bullet doesnt exit and the animal vansihed from sight there is always a bit of worry in my mind when we get on the trail. Blood tells us if it's muscle, lung heart or gut which when adding everything else up the angle the animal stood clearing or gap the hunter had to shoot trough, reaction of the animal and so on you get a good idea where the animal was hit. Not always but most of the times.

Now when it comes to bloodtrails bullets like Barnes TSX, Rhino and Bearclaw that make great petals that are seratted especially in larger caliber leaves a real good blood trail while sometimes A frames with a perfect round mushroom doesn't just an example not bashing A Frame at all. The non con with the petals breaking off creating serious terminal damage and the solid shank maybe exiting I suppose will not leave such a great blood trail. Depening on internal injury of course or not we need to see in the field I suppose.

Then as for another example if a bullet doesnt sheer off the petals it will keep its weight thereby if you do pull a bad shot and you end in the guts depending on angle it could end up hitting something vital in the end as it had enough weight to travel further but having sheered petals in the gut and a non exiting bullet in a buffalo will give everyone a lot of work and anxious moments. Not that a bad shot can be fixed by a miraclke bullet anyway.

Then there are solids these days which are banded and they seem to leave better bloodtrail than your normal round nose fmj as well so yes we are definetly moving into a time where we cannot blame equipment much more.

And Micheal thanks for all the hard work I will be off again for a couple of days and catch up by the end of the week.

Remember these non cons are penetrating as deep or deeper than the best premium soft points. I have shot a few animals with a couple different types of non cons and will say they have preformed great and the amount of blood that pours out seems to be more than usual.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Remember these non cons are penetrating as deep or deeper than the best premium soft points. I have shot a few animals with a couple different types of non cons and will say they have preformed great and the amount of blood that pours out seems to be more than usual.

Sam

Sam, that does sound good!

Whew, out for a day or so, and lot's of catching up to do! Hi guys! I sincerely hope the weekend was a great Christmas weekend for you! We had Snow here in SC yesterday, and we all played in the snow all day! We don't get much of that, so we took advantage of it!

Starting where I left off.

IBT

Well, still just playing with a "lion bullet", but I will never have a bullet that would not work in a pinch for a buffalo. Buffalo bullets come first and foremost! Penetration! Even the "lion bullet" has enough penetration on broadside to do the job, so far. Currently with the cavity depth at .800--twice as much as the "Buffalo #13" the remaining slug still penetrates to 18-20 inches, and that is broadside buffalo territory. Remember, our finest so called buffalo bullets in conventional premiums penetrate this test medium from 19-24 inches! Anything close or inside that will do fine on buffalo as well. In fact, I am probably wasting time to begin with, as I do believe the current #13s will turn lions and bears inside out anyway. Enough Margin built in would be a .600 deep cavity, which we might play with and see what happens. Or maybe a full 1.0 deep cavity as well, but that's for sure going in the other direction, but I am curious to see what happens at different depths--SAM! HEH.

It's been mentioned by some that the remaining slug looks like a broken beer bottle! It's a ugly slashing, ripping, tearing thing as it penetrates, and you are correct, it is not in the least scared of smashing anything that gets in it's way, including heavy bone.

All the current #13 HPs with their 28-33 inch total penetration depths are causing far more destruction to tissue than any premium convention can dream of doing. Regardless of whether the petals/blades stay inside wound channel or move away from wound channel!

I am going to try some of both of thin skinned critters this coming 2011 season and see what happens, and I encourage all to help me out some too. I would like to see a lot more field data and reports than just what Sam and I can produce.


Cross L

No, not to my mind, I will probably never relinquish my solids backing up any NonCon or soft for buffalo especially. I may not always shoot straight, so that solid will keep me from having an issue in those situations.

Sake, Japanese rice spirits, served hot, goes straight to the system being absorbed into the bloodstream fast--very good stuff! I drink only about a half gallon or so at a sitting!



Paul

How many .620s do you want? Yes, I was going to do so just as soon as I received and Sam and I approve the new .457s and .474s that are on the way this week in brass and Nitro band form. But right now you are shooting an OK, correct? No issues with those at all! Feeding, think they will feed in a OK? 67% meplat, Winchesters gobble them up, except for 1 rifle I have!


JD

I can get some green matte finish spray paint at Wally-World? HEH!


IBT
Again! I repeat, I disagree, even as good as the NonCons are, far superior to any conventional premium, I still would always want solids backing up for anything--There is no reason in the world to be caught without a solid, and every reason in the world to have them!

Safari

quote:

Then as for another example if a bullet doesnt sheer off the petals it will keep its weight thereby if you do pull a bad shot and you end in the guts depending on angle it could end up hitting something vital in the end as it had enough weight to travel further but having sheered petals in the gut and a non exiting bullet in a buffalo will give everyone a lot of work and anxious moments. Not that a bad shot can be fixed by a miraclke bullet anyway.

OK, let me see if I understand you correct. You say, if the petals don't shear, weight is retained, and therefore deeper penetration? Is that correct?

Answer- No, not the case. Still "Inside" the box of "Conventional" teachings, which teaches us that very fact--but it is not the truth, and the very reason we call these bullets "Non-Conventional", as once the petals/blades shear, penetration depth "Increases" substantially. If the petals are retained, this is nothing more than a conventional bullet, with conventional modes of operation. I have attempted to explain this on my NonCon page here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Would like some feedback on that to see if I have it right, and have explained my view correctly as well.

No thanks needed, Frederik, we are all learning together. Have a great week!


Sam

Good Morning--Trust your weekend was fantastic!

Michael

Michael,

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest a .600 deep cavity in those lion bullets. This would still blow like a grenade and leave a bigger base to penetrate.
Yes had good weekend until we lost power yesterday morning at about 4:00 am and still don't have it at my house. Got mabe 4 to 5 inches snow.

Sam

Sam

I think a .600 deep cavity will leave plenty of margin that it could be used on buffalo as well, with little issue. But, I do not want to leave the .400 cavity #13, this would only be an additional special purpose bullet.

No Power? Pretty cool outside? Suppose you have the gen set up and running?

We got a couple of inches here is all. But the girls had a blast.

M

Yep .600 special and .400 standard.

No power no generator working and 24 degrees right now. Thats why I'm at my office.

IBT,
I believe I have read some articles by the "well known african PH" about not needing solids. He also uses a 9.3x62 if we are talking about the same man.
I dont know because I havent been there but I am a belt and suspenders type who likes to cover all possible options. A 1600-1800 # bull can drop easy if hit correctly-and can be a real mess if you are off just a tiny bit so I assume that Cape buff are the same.My knees are old so I hate running and dodging--lets settle it quickly if at all possible,

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
IBT,
I believe I have read some articles by the "well known african PH" about not needing solids. He also uses a 9.3x62 if we are talking about the same man.
I dont know because I havent been there but I am a belt and suspenders type who likes to cover all possible options. A 1600-1800 # bull can drop easy if hit correctly-and can be a real mess if you are off just a tiny bit so I assume that Cape buff are the same.My knees are old so I hate running and dodging--lets settle it quickly if at all possible,

SSR

I believe I stated that the answer was a noncon up and solids in the magazine. I stick with that.

I also said a PH that I liked believed that there is no need for solids anymore. I ended expressing a concern for him coming to regret that statement. I never said I agreed with him.

By the way, the PH is not old 9.3X62. I like reading 9.3X62 because he makes me think about what I believe and why I believe it. I would never recommend a novice to read him.

I stick with my first response. A noncon up and solids in the magazine.

quote:

I have attempted to explain this on my NonCon page here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Would like some feedback on that to see if I have it right, and have explained my view correctly as well.

Just followed the hyperlink and read from top to bottom...I believe you've explained it well presuming that the reader does read the page in its entirety.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

I have attempted to explain this on my NonCon page here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Would like some feedback on that to see if I have it right, and have explained my view correctly as well.

Just followed the hyperlink and read from top to bottom...I believe you've explained it well presuming that the reader does read the page in its entirety.

Jim

I think a LOT OF US--has to include myself at the very top of the list--We No Longer "RTB" (Read The Book)!


Now, I know you read the book and follow the instructions! I have no doubt of that--But for about 10 yrs now, I quit reading the book! Instructions go in the trash, lot's of cussing, fussing and hammer beating, then I call the wife, or Sam, to put the damned thing together!

HEH!!!!!

So maybe the NonCon Page is not so boring that folks can read it!

M

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
IBT,
I believe I have read some articles by the "well known african PH" about not needing solids. He also uses a 9.3x62 if we are talking about the same man.
I dont know because I havent been there but I am a belt and suspenders type who likes to cover all possible options. A 1600-1800 # bull can drop easy if hit correctly-and can be a real mess if you are off just a tiny bit so I assume that Cape buff are the same.My knees are old so I hate running and dodging--lets settle it quickly if at all possible,

SSR

I believe I stated that the answer was a noncon up and solids in the magazine. I stick with that.

I also said a PH that I liked believed that there is no need for solids anymore. I ended expressing a concern for him coming to regret that statement. I never said I agreed with him.
…

I’ve not hunted either Cape or Asian buffalo but I recently stated to Michael and Sam that I perceive the best combination – at least in .500 caliber – would be (for a 3-down magazine) two 460gr CEB BBW #13 Brass HP Solid bullets (one in chamber and 1st round in magazine) followed by two 460gr CEB BBW #13 Brass HB Solid bullets. In my peanut brain the 460gr CEB BBW #13 Brass HP and HB Solid bullets should have the same trajectory and POI out to around 150-160yds…so should a buff survive two of the NonCon HPs you’d have two HB solids for maximum penetration for the longer shots should one or two “Texas Heart Shots” be required to anchor a shot but escaping buffalo. In the case of my 50 MDM (being built) it would be 3+3 and I’ll be practicing to try and duplicate Michael’s rapid fire with the .500 caliber so that it’d be six rounds expended in 150yds rather than only four.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

I have attempted to explain this on my NonCon page here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Would like some feedback on that to see if I have it right, and have explained my view correctly as well.

Just followed the hyperlink and read from top to bottom...I believe you've explained it well presuming that the reader does read the page in its entirety.

Jim

I think a LOT OF US--has to include myself at the very top of the list--We No Longer "RTB" (Read The Book)!


Now, I know you read the book and follow the instructions! I have no doubt of that--But for about 10 yrs now, I quit reading the book! Instructions go in the trash, lot's of cussing, fussing and hammer beating, then I call the wife, or Sam, to put the damned thing together!

HEH!!!!!

So maybe the NonCon Page is not so boring that folks can read it!

M

Geez...just like my wife and youngest son! Rip it open and start slinging things around without concern how it's supposed to be done. Then I get to hear..."its not working right"...or "how come I have these extra parts"...

I guess you'd best put a warning at the very top...telling the reader to read it all!!!

Edit added: No its not boring and there is very good information at the bottom that’d be missed otherwise!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest a .600 deep cavity in those lion bullets. This would still blow like a grenade and leave a bigger base to penetrate.
Yes had good weekend until we lost power yesterday morning at about 4:00 am and still don't have it at my house. Got mabe 4 to 5 inches snow.

Sam

Dang Sam…sorry to hear about losing power. We lost our heater in January of 1977 while living in Sault Ste. Marie, MI. No motels or hotels were open that time of year so we camped out in front of the fireplace for three days while the heater was repaired. Totally not fun.

Back to the lion bullet…I just measured up a couple of the 460gr HP’s and the HP base is about .355” deep so might I suggest making the depth about .620” deep, that’ll put the HP base just below the upper band, and using the NE upper band spacing. Might want to also test with larger diameter HP to assure the longer shards shear more easily on soft skinned-light boned game.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
IBT,
I believe I have read some articles by the "well known african PH" about not needing solids. He also uses a 9.3x62 if we are talking about the same man.

I believe I stated that the answer was a noncon up and solids in the magazine. I stick with that.

I also said a PH that I liked believed that there is no need for solids anymore. I ended expressing a concern for him coming to regret that statement. I never said I agreed with him.

By the way, the PH is not old 9.3X62. I like reading 9.3X62 because he makes me think about what I believe and why I believe it. I would never recommend a novice to read him.

Old 9.3X62! HEH HEH HEH HEH!!!!!!! LMAO!
He don't need a solid, Until he Needs A Solid!!!!! HEH HEH!
Some know more, than they really do know! Some Know from experience what they know, some don't have experience with some things to know, so how can they know, if they don't know? I know, I tell everyone I don't know, if I don't know, but if I know, I say I know, but I don't even know everything!
LOL--WTF Knows? OK OK--I know! I know I won't be caught with a rifle that does not have a decent solid in it, right now that's a BBW #13 or a North Fork! END OF STORY--Cause I know!

Sounds like some old stories I remember from Elmer's Day!

Cross, IBT, and Myself--All in agreement! NonCon, Solid, Solid! My Winchesters only hold 3 down! So that's my load out--don't care what we are going to shoot from rabbits to Buffalo! That'll do! Jim, that rifle holds way too many cartridges! How are you ever going to learn how to reload that rifle quickly when it holds that many? Did I read that right? I sometimes don't RTB. I am going to read the bottom of my NonCon page again, see what the issue is!

M