quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

I have to ask..."Why was the NonCon nose changed for the .500 and .458 Raptors to give a 4th band at the nose shank junction?"

And..."Is this different Raptor NonCon nose contributing to the poor petal shear performance of these to Raptors?"

I do like the new 9.3 Talon Tip...and will especially like it if the performance holds true for the .500 caliber.

Really can't answer the first question, as I have not paid that much attention to #bands, they have to have at least 3--4 is normal I think. As for the nose projection that might be a bit different on some caliber Raptors so it fits in most magazines. Shearing is actually very good and fairly equal to NonCons in the same weight class. There might be some difference here and there, and nose projection might have a small effect, however if it is going to fit the magazine of most rifles and Be a Raptor--it is what it is and has to be.

The new tips are going to be fine--Just finished with 416 and .500--and they work! Will report when I get data recorded.

Michael

+1
I don't know of any reason for the extra band unless its for lever actions. The extra ten thou in thickness means you need a larger hole. Can I lobby for the original design with three bands.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

I have to ask..."Why was the NonCon nose changed for the .500 and .458 Raptors to give a 4th band at the nose shank junction?"

And..."Is this different Raptor NonCon nose contributing to the poor petal shear performance of these to Raptors?"

I do like the new 9.3 Talon Tip...and will especially like it if the performance holds true for the .500 caliber.

MORE TIPS

The answer to all changes is NO! Not a nice No--But HELL NO!

Why the hell change something that don't need fixing? HEH....... OK OK, but we don't need a change in this!

Yesterday if you would have asked this question

"Michael, how long before we can get some new Talon Tips that will give us positive shear at low velocity, close to where the NonCon shears and operates, maybe within 100 fps?"

My answer would have been to you

"Boys, it is going to take Months of trail and error to get this right!"

Now we have been working on this for several days no doubt about it. Only this morning I posted to you all the issues that have been, were, and are being dealt with. About 12 hours ago or so.

This evening I come to you and now I tell you this PROBLEM SOLVED! ISSUE SOLVED!

We no longer have a Talon Tip Problem with Low Velocity Shear Points higher than the Low Velocity Shear Points for NonCons. We no longer have the problem of Talon Tips causing the bullet to go unstable like a pointy solid spitzer. We no longer have the problem of tips coming out of the bullet. In fact, I am becoming a fast believer in the New Talon Hollow Point Tip! Not so much for LONG RANGE work, I could give a crap about shooting something past 10 yds or so, what I like is the heavy hitting power that the Tip allows for the BBW#13 NonCons and Raptors!

In yesterdays Overnight package Dan had put a Hollow Point in the .500 W-Tip (Which is going to be redesigned to match all the new Talon Big Bore Tips and mediums--Like the 9.3 N and the 416 R). He only did 5 of them just for giggles. Neither of us believed it would work in the .500 tips, the hollow point that is. I would have bet a cool $20 on it only this morning! I would have lost.

Recall I did this the other day, I did not get a positive shear WITH THE SAME TIP No Hollow Point with the 350 Raptor until I got to 2100 fps, and even then it was not an even shear on one of them. 2100 fps Impact.

The NonCon 350 Raptor No Tip shears down to 1700 fps.

Now enter the same exact W-Tip with a Hollow Point down through the nose to the stem, but not below the stem. FAR BETTER PERFORMANCE than the bullet at 2100 fps impact!




I only had 3 of these Hollow Point Talon Tips left--I am not going to test them until I get to Africa! I know they will shear at 1700 fps impacts, and maybe even LESS!


Next--------------MORE TIPS

New Design 416 R-Tips With Hollow Point


I tested the 325 BBW#13 NonCon first today with a new Talon R-Tip that Dan had put the hollow point in the nose.

First tested at 1679 fps impact--Perfect shear, perfect performance.

A week or so ago I tested the 325 BBW#13 NonCon and Low Velocity Shear Point was 1650 fps.

This 1679 fps is very close, and perfect shear!

I dropped the velocity to this;



We are more than 60 fps less than Low Velocity Shear Point for the NonCon alone with no tip!

I noticed this yesterday with the 9.3 210 Raptor N-Tip Hollow Point--it also sheared perfectly 50 fps less than the standard NonCon with no tip added. Yesterday I figured it was maybe a fluke of some sort, today I am thinking maybe it is not a fluke and we are actually getting a Lower Velocity Shear Point with the new Hollow Point Talons than we are with standard NonCons.

Something we will investigate completely upon my return.

In the meantime I see no reason at all not to proceed with the New Design Talon Tips in Big Bores and mediums from 9.3 all with the Hollow Point in the Nose! It is working far better than I had ever thought it would.

Let me introduce you to the New 416 R-Tip Hollow Point



Michael

Wow. Awesome looking tips! Great performance!
This solution came fast and furious.
Great news!

Michael, are you opposed to the original 3 band raptor design?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
New Design 416 R-Tips With Hollow Point


I tested the 325 BBW#13 NonCon first today with a new Talon R-Tip that Dan had put the hollow point in the nose.

First tested at 1679 fps impact--Perfect shear, perfect performance.

A week or so ago I tested the 325 BBW#13 NonCon and Low Velocity Shear Point was 1650 fps.

This 1679 fps is very close, and perfect shear!

I dropped the velocity to this;



We are more than 60 fps less than Low Velocity Shear Point for the NonCon alone with no tip!

I noticed this yesterday with the 9.3 210 Raptor N-Tip Hollow Point--it also sheared perfectly 50 fps less than the standard NonCon with no tip added. Yesterday I figured it was maybe a fluke of some sort, today I am thinking maybe it is not a fluke and we are actually getting a Lower Velocity Shear Point with the new Hollow Point Talons than we are with standard NonCons.

Something we will investigate completely upon my return.

In the meantime I see no reason at all not to proceed with the New Design Talon Tips in Big Bores and mediums from 9.3 all with the Hollow Point in the Nose! It is working far better than I had ever thought it would.

Let me introduce you to the New 416 R-Tip Hollow Point



Michael

Michael,

we love the pictures and your tireless work.

We didn't want you running off without a quick, approximate, BC calculation.
1664 at (4yard) and 1587 at 48 yards,
yields a BC of .372.
I could go hunting with that.

325 grain +11 grains is a 336 grain bullet. Here is a trajectory based on a +2.0" max arc above line of sight.
Max height occurs at 120 yard, zero distance is 205 yards.
calibre - - bullet wt. - - - type - - - - velocity - - - energy - - 100 - 200 - 300 - 400
.416Rigby 336grain TippedNonCon , 2850 fps, 6059 ftlbs, +1.9, +0.2, -7.5, -22.5

Now that is a hunting machine. The load is close to a full Rigby load. The sheer impact of 1600fps is not reached until after 600 yards . I don't hunt 600 yards. It looks like we will have a bullet combo.

the bullet length is between 1.6" and 1.8" ??

One thing that is great about these non cons and raptors is getting amazing performance at even at 1,600 FPS. Would be quite telling to compare the competitions performance at low impact velocities. The comparable bullets with higher BC's advantage is taken away with the lower impact velocity performance of these bullets. Much appreciation for the testing and reports Michael. May your Safari be better than you can imagine.

I have to tell you that I am very surprised to get this sorted out as quickly as we did. And got it right, first off!

Let me also tell you how good this work is--The tips I mean. You can't see it from my sorry ass photos--But that tip fits so well on the end of the NonCons that you rub the pad of your finger across it and you cannot feel where it comes together. You can with a fingernail, but not with your finger--that is a nice fit.

Boomy

I just see not reason to go from 4 to 3 if it starts with 4 like the 350 Raptor .500. With 4 one has more advantages in seating depth depending on a particular magazine, and more options otherwise. Now I would be very against 5 bands, that is too much. If a Raptor starts with three like some of the smaller bores and it does well, then I am not for putting 4 bands on either. I think some of the small raptors have 3 correct?

Honestly, I was not so hot on the tips, fine with, fine without. But now, with the performance I am seeing yesterday and today with the Talon tip with the hollow point, I am beginning to "See the Light". I like the looks and length of the new design a lot. While it is not the SUPER HI BC LONG TIP---these are hunting serious bullets, dangerous game bullets, they are not 1000 yard target bullets. We need WORKING Tips--Not show tips that are hard to manage, overly long and cumbersome. These new Talon Tips fit exactly the sort of needs we need in a hunting bullet. They do the job--and now with shear and performance sorted out, I believe, then I am very much on board with these tips. Dan has done a great job on this.

OH, Just call me "Tipsey" tonight!


Now its dark, I am going to roost!

Michael

All I can say is... "Way to go Dan!! Way to go Michael!!!

I look forward to hearing just how well those 3 tips work in the .500 in Africa!

You Michael, Dan and the CEB team did a great job on these new tips. Take a bow. Yes! These are hunting bullets good for 99% of most hunting distances. What will be interesting to see when you get back is how the hollow point tips work in early tissue disruption. My guess is the new tips make the bullets shear quicker and that is a good thing. Also to see how close to the base the petal disperse. These tips on the small and medium Raptors could add in stability on the slower twist barrels.

The 416 Non con w/tip-what would the COL be?

Doesn't seeting it deeper cut down on powder space?

It needs to work though a mag, does it not?


any discernible difference inside 100 yds? Ie does the hollow point tip add to the shear at DG distances? and if it does is the necessarily a good thing--even with shear do we not want a certain amount of penetration before shear commences in order to get the petals into organ tissue?

SSR

Cross, feeding with tips is what the Raptors are all about. The new tips seem to be 80% of diameter. That said doubles, single shots and first loading of bolt actions can obviously just add the tips without issue but a sub catagory of non con band position leaving room for tips could be a niche. This can be done by adding two bands to load out to the max without tip or loading deeper with tip or moving the bands all together but that is something that the masses would have to create the demand for.

Not Raptors--I was speaking of BBW#13 non-cons-Seems they would be over length for magazine.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Not Raptors--I was speaking of BBW#13 non-cons-Seems they would be over length for magazine.

SSR

This is true for all but a very few rifle/cartridge combinations...you'll pretty much need the ability to load a bullet have a non-seated length of about 1.2" to work from the magazine.

Prior to the Raptors our conversations pretty much centered around a Talon Tipped NonCon in the tube followed by untipped NonCons and/or FN Solids in the magazine.

That is Excelent penetration at that velocity. Will be looking forward to seeing what these wonder bullets and improved tips do at full throttle.

The way that .500 350 grain raptor base shears it's like the base of the hole is a new meplat.

Great work.

Part of the problem is the light weight bullets of low SD do not expand as well, for given velocity, as the heavier bullets (.3 SD), even though nose design is same.
0.3 or higher SD will usually pop the brass hollowpoint noses at 1600 fps.

SD is not dead. If low SD (mass) then velocity must be higher to get any nose design to expand.
A basic principle, eh?

There is a hint in Doc M's work that these hollow-pointed plastic tips help some of the bullets "pop nose" at even lower velocity than they do without the tips.

They will improve the "nose poppng" on all the bullets.
So does higher velocity.

It is these experiments that allow the balancing point to be found, the practical compromise,
for all the aspects of bullet weight, length, velocity, magazine length limits, nose design, down range impact velocity, etc.

Many thanks to Doc M and Dan.
Captain Obvious has spoken!

Not bad at all for a .224 SD bullet... I'm sure there are some individuals that read this thread that'll poo-poo the results because the bullets aren't heavy enough...but I'm sure Michael's field results will tell a very different story.

Edit: Photo corrected.

Yep, nice pair of tips: Great on short ones and long ones.



Great on big ones and little ones.

It took Sam and Michael some time to develop the BBW#13s FN Solids and additional time to perfect its paired HP NonCon bullet, then work with Dan to finalize both for CEB’ production, then all to accomplish subtle modifications as needed to perfect each caliber’s bullets for optimum performance.

RIP

And now it appears Dan has worked out the performance issues with the BB Talon Tips and the Raptors can begin coming into their own performance wise.

To Dan, Michael, and Sam!

Myself…

I definitely have to get some of the new .500 caliber Talon Tips!

Capo. The SD of the 350 grain .500 bullet is .200
A tad over with the tip. That 21" penetration at that velocity is awesome.

Thanks Boomy... Photo should have been the 210gr 9.3; it's corrected.

And yes...21" with a .200 SD 350gr .500 is awesome! I definately have to get these 3rd Gen HP Talon Tips to use with the 400gr .500 Raptors that Michael sent me.

An absolute wonder! Michael as well as the new tips. My best wishes to you on your upcoming safari.
Max

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Not Raptors--I was speaking of BBW#13 non-cons-Seems they would be over length for magazine.

SSR

Cross

100% correct! On most all the BBW#13 NonCons designed for Dangerous Game--from 416 caliber and up--add the tip, and they WILL NOT work through the magazine of bolt guns.

The plan I have with the Talon Tip NonCon is to put that one in the chamber for that ALL IMPORTANT first Shot! At any range you impact at, the tip will add a good deal more velocity. More velocity with a NonCon means MORE OF EVERYTHING. With a magazine full of either BBW#13 Solids, or more BBW#13 NonCons to back up the first shot. Really no way to get mixed up, no way to go wrong, and now with the new Hollow Point tips--it does appear we are getting more performance at lower impact velocities than a NonCon alone.

It is not normal for sure--It does require a bit more on ones part, about a second to load up maybe, but higher impact velocity I think will make a big difference, and it's the first shot that counts the most.

Raptors of course are designed to fit the magazines of most rifles, with the tip installed--but as always there is a compromise to life and one has to compromise weight, nose projection, case capacity, and find a happy compromise in a given caliber.

Right now the Big Bores are the only compromise with the Raptors. IN all the mediums down from 375 and small bores I don't think the Raptors are a compromise, I think they are the Kick Ass bullet of the entire caliber! No bullet in 9.3 caliber is able to compete with the terminals of the 210 Raptor--None, for the intended purpose of that bullet.

Boomy, yes, the 350 Raptor gave excellent penetration, and has been doing around that depth even at higher impacts on average. Some of these do reach a point that depth does not increase so much with velocity, trauma up front does however. Little different with straight up NonCons, they do gain some significant amounts of penetration with velocity. While I have not done a complete study, I believe this to be part of nose projection as spoken of up a few posts. Not much can or will be done about it, it is what it is, Raptors have to have less nose projection than NonCons to fit the magazine, with a tip! The whole point of them to begin with.

And of course, RIP is correct, SD does start to show up here with these as well.

quote:

It is these experiments that allow the balancing point to be found, the practical compromise, for all the aspects of bullet weight, length, velocity, magazine length limits, nose design, down range impact velocity, etc.

RIP--Exactly!



MAX

quote:

An absolute wonder! Michael as well as the new tips. My best wishes to you on your upcoming safari.
Max

Thank You Max, but not sure I would really define my mission there as a "Safari Proper". More of a shoot I would say. I intend to shoot and drink beer! HEH........... Not trophy hunting at all, targets of "Opportunity" will be more like it. Sorry, hope to not offend the more sensitive out there, but I am on a mission, not a proper defined hunt or Safari so to speak! This might offend some of the more traditionalists out there, and for that I offer small apologies, but in the end, truth be known, "Oh Well"..........................

I was just now thinking that I really miss out on some very important parts of any hunt, safari, or even a shooting spree as this one. What I miss out on is the "Anticipation" part of it. Things are so hectic here, and there is so much to do anytime I get ready to leave for anywhere, it eats up all my thoughts and any "Anticipations" of the hunt, safari, or shoot. A couple of months or so ago, I was looking forward to this one, as its a no stress shoot, fun, loaf around, do as one pleases and do some shooting. But the last month there has been zero time to think much about it, and the closer it gets to leaving, the more hectic it is getting my real job situated, getting things ready so that in my absence the folks I leave in charge are not under stress, and all sorts of things like that. About the only time I will be able to start thinking about, and anticipating the trip is after I get the rifles and ammo checked through at the airport. Then I can maybe start "Anticipation" part of the trip, but it is very short lived!

Michael

There are some "Terminal Ballistics Experts" out there that are fully determined to be ignorant I suppose. Or stupid, or possibly just want to be an aggravation to those who are trying to learn from test work. I have heard these so called "Terminal Ballistic Experts" that one cannot possibly test bullets in ANY sort of medium and expect them to perform anything close to the same in animal tissue. And of course "WetPack" or "Wet Paper" medium is the very worst of all test mediums and totally useless for doing such work. "Terminal Ballistic Experts". Hmmmm? Well, I am very pleased I chose to not listen to the so called "Experts" and continue my own path beyond what they might be able to comprehend. Even when shown bullet behavior between the two test mediums, my test medium here, and animal tissue, bullets behave the same, do the same thing, expand or shear blades, rip, tear and cause massive trauma, or just drive in a straight line like the solids tested, in both test medium and animal tissue, it is still not so--can't be true, that's not real. OK...Where do you go from there with someone like that? No Where! They are IDIOTS and one cannot deal with IDIOTS. So you know what I say...........FK'em! Stupid will always be stupid and there is not much you can do about stupid!

My rant for the day!

On to better things! I am pretty serious about this Hollow Point Tip thing! Just finished adding some of the new 9.3 Hollow Point Talon Tips to my 9.3 B&M ammo! Looks pretty spiffy--oh and it does perform and I bet if I do my job proper in the field, that they will perform exactly as they do in the test medium here, only now on animal tissue. Big difference, deeper penetration on animal tissue, and that is about it. We will see eh? Anyone wish to place any bets?




Dan at CEB is a pretty good Chap! He did not want me going without enough tips to do the job, got busy and organized tips with Hollow Points 9.3 and .500 and overnight both to me. I received them about 11 am this morning, loaded straight up, and went to test the .500s again. 350 ESP Raptor with new HP Talon Tips.

Another Low Velocity Impact Like Yesterdays work.



And a New Higher Velocity Impact just for FYI, or should I say, FMI? (For My Info)




OK, thin skinned Dangerous Game! Now in my opinion, based on not only "Test Work" done, in that horrible, useless wet print test medium I use, and my life experience in the field, I reckon that 350 gr .500 caliber ESP Raptor will turn Thin Skinned Dangerous Game, inside out! I would leave first thing in the morning with my 500 MDM loaded with that bullet, at that velocity, with that new HP Tip and hunt any thin skinned dangerous game that ever lived on planet earth! Including Saber Tooths and Cave Bears! We will see eh? Anyone want to bet against me? Any so called "Terminal Ballistic Experts" out there, want to bet against me on this?

Finished! Rifles shooting--working, feeding, and the 500 MDM is working slick as snot! Must have been some sort of burr somewhere? Just all the sudden, slick as it can be, like it was before! Feed and function, 100%, good to go! Not that it is that big a deal, as I am not shooting any dangerous game, just thin skinned critters of opportunity, but still, one likes for the tools to function proper! Basically, pack'em, and stack'em and get on the plane! Shit, what am I going to do now for the next 3 days? Hmmmmmm?

Michael

Great work Michael.
Looking forward to your report from your hunting/shooting
Have a great time!

FTR

BC on the fast bullet above (2700fps) was .285 and BC on the slow bullet (1800) was .303.

We want Michael to know his trajectories at 450 yards.

Can we cross the DNA of the American lion and an African lion to resurrect the largest lion ever that was the Anerican lion weighing 700 to 800 lbs?
Cave bears and American Lions would make worthy opponents for the Raptor.

http://www.fossil-treasures-of...m/american-lion.html

Hey Boomy-

You need a timeout.

Go to your room and spend an hour of quiet time. No computer, no rifle, no lights. Lay down on your bed, breathe deeply and think about something other than this forum.

The Accent plant isn't pumping today is it? That would explain things.

I agree!
Been sick so laid up in bed and this has been my entertainment and intellectual stimulation

Hope you get feeling better soon.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Can we cross the DNA of the American lion and an African lion to resurrect the largest lion ever that was the Anerican lion weighing 700 to 800 lbs?
Cave bears and American Lions would make worthy opponents for the Raptor.

http://www.fossil-treasures-of...m/american-lion.html

boomyI got the place here in the hill country--lets do it---

SSR

We have one of those places that have breed the Ligers or whatever you call them. Went to an outdoor show here in Myrtle Beach some years ago, and they had some there, tame ones of course. They had one, so help me god, this thing looked like it ate two or three full grown african male lions it was so big. It appeared to be at least twice the size of a male African lion, if not bigger. The head was tremendous.

I gots room--just hold my beer and watch----



SSR

http://gunblast.com/Remington-700-50th.htm
Good mentions of CEB bullets and raptors. Check out the video too.

I thought I would mention some testing yesterday with the 458 (450 gr CEB 13's). I loaded up some various 450gr's in my Lott in the past few weeks and tested them yesterday. Using AA 2520 powder.
I used a 86 gr charge with the CEB's, NF Solid Shank and 85 gr behind 450 TSX's.
Something I noticed when sooting the CEB's in a 470 NE about a month ago was the small std deviation from shot to shot.
Same thing happened this weekend with the Lott. Velocities for 4 shots were 2458, 2457,2458,2456.I do measure every charge to 1/10 grain but this is unbelievable...
Looking at the holes in the papar leads me to believe that these bullets do cut through the medium and do not pull or stretch as much of the medium allowing less "tug" on the bullet as it passes through, creating less resistance...... Reason for deeper penetration. I suspect there are some sharp edges on the lead driving band that add to this assumption.

EZ

I have been trying to work up some baseline load data with my Chapuis 9,3X74R with both the 280 grain BBW#13s as well as the 286 grain North Fork Cup Points. In this gun I would normally shoot a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle magnum primer, 55.7 grains of Reloder 15, and a 286 grain Hornady bullet.That load normally runs about 2238 fps and regulates perfectly.

For the first go around with the North Forks and the BBW#13s, I simply dropped that load down to 53 grains of Reloder 15. They were running almost exactly the same. The North Fork Cup Points were running 2097 fps and the BBW#13s 2091 fps. In this particular gun, the North Forks seem to work a little better. Because of the "truncated cone" you don't have to be concerned with the North Forks being seated into the lands.

I plan to bump the load up a grain and a half and let you know how it goes.

I would love to know what your parallel sided freebore and bore diameter is in your gun. The bullets are a bore rider design. If your bore dimension is smaller than most or a common diameter that would be helpful to know because I'm sure CEB wants these bullets to work in most guns. I know there can be barrel variances and some rifling can be deeper than others.

Boomie, not to worry. The BBW#13s work. I mean I can close the gun and as you can see, I am not getting any signs of undue pressure. It's just that seated at the crimping groove, they are very, very long and I think they are touching the rifling in both barrels. The North Forks are good and I can seat them much deeper.

After I get this sorted out, I plan to work up a load for my 450 Marlin with the 400 grain BBW#13s. Now there's a bullet!

Dave

I did some loads in 45/70 with the 400 BBW#13, Marlin, running 48/RL 7 got 1872 fps, 49/RL 7 gave me 1932 fps, 50/RL 7 give me 1941 and started getting a little sticky--While each rifle can run a little different, I would guess the 450 Marlin case might be a bit thicker, you could run from 48 up a bit and see what you get. The matching 370 NonCon went to 50/RL 7 with zero issues at 1993 fps, I never went any further, was rather pleased with that.

I am taking my 9.3 B&M Dave! It's been 8 years now since I took to the field with anything under 416 caliber. Quite a big difference for me. I have never been to the field with a 9.3 anything. I am also running nothing but the CEB 210 Raptor with added NEW HP Tip. Oh, I do have just a few of those Raptors turned around into solids, for that, "Just In Case" scenario.

Of course I am not doing anything big, just as many zebras and wildebeasties as I can get close to. Want to be close, not far, can't see far anyway, and want to see how bullets react should one wish to use them on thin Skinned Dangerous game. Figure zebras and wildebeasts would give us some thoughts to ponder!

Michael