EZ,

It matters not the brand of rifle, all gunsmiths dread to see FN bullets arrive on their doorstep with a DG bolt action rifle. That said, any quality gunsmith can make FN bullets function 100% reliably in these rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
THe Great Caliber Debate

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
THe Great Caliber Debate

I think I see this nearly every day, RIGHT HERE on AR!

HEH HEH

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
EZ,

It matters not the brand of rifle, all gunsmiths dread to see FN bullets arrive on their doorstep with a DG bolt action rifle. That said, any quality gunsmith can make FN bullets function 100% reliably in these rifles.

They love to see WINCHESTERS---Less work to do!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
EZ,

It matters not the brand of rifle, all gunsmiths dread to see FN bullets arrive on their doorstep with a DG bolt action rifle. That said, any quality gunsmith can make FN bullets function 100% reliably in these rifles.

They love to see WINCHESTERS---Less work to do!

Suuurrrreeeee…… unless you want to use a 375/416 Ruger cartridge or want a RUM cartridge and can’t find a Winchester factory RUM modified action to start with!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
THe Great Caliber Debate

I think I see this nearly every day, RIGHT HERE on AR!

HEH HEH

Yep, but just do not wear blue or use blue tape on your barrel!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:



They love to see WINCHESTERS---Less work to do!

Suuurrrreeeee…… unless you want to use a 375/416 Ruger cartridge or want a RUM cartridge and can’t find a Winchester factory RUM modified action to start with! [/QUOTE]


Got something for you Ole Boy





M

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
THe Great Caliber Debate

I think I see this nearly every day, RIGHT HERE on AR!

HEH HEH

Yep, but just do not wear blue or use blue tape on your barrel!!!!!!!!

Hey, I thought the little fellow on the left had a pretty good idea of chopping 4 inches off the barrel of his "three hundred thirty eight"--I go with that myself, only I would chop 4 more inches off that 26! HEH HEH!!!!!!

But then, I am about to give up completely on calibers for rats!

Gotta go load some test loads now.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
EZ,

It matters not the brand of rifle, all gunsmiths dread to see FN bullets arrive on their doorstep with a DG bolt action rifle. That said, any quality gunsmith can make FN bullets function 100% reliably in these rifles.

They love to see WINCHESTERS---Less work to do!

Suuurrrreeeee…… unless you want to use a 375/416 Ruger cartridge or want a RUM cartridge and can’t find a Winchester factory RUM modified action to start with!

Got something for you Ole Boy





M

OK OK OK, I give up!

It should be bullet day today?

Have several loads ready to test with that 460 HB, I think 3 different powders. Also Sam has requested some 50 B&M load data on some powders, so Monday I am doing some PTs and load development on those.

Also want to do some terminals on the 460 HBs!

Let me know when the Bullet Man knocks on your door today!

Michael

What can I say…it is a gloomy, overcast and rainy day and I don’t have webbed feet! It has been showering or raining since yesterday morning with very little letup and the weather forecasters (if one can believe them) say this weather system will be with us through mid-next week. Real bummer out here!

Ok…the moon fest is over.

Will be looking for the bullet man to arrive and will let you know when the box gets here. I’m looking forward to the retest and terminals with the HBs!

We are having typical "Alaska Weather" here in SC today. It's raining, and 36 degrees! I am having visions of going outside in my Alaska gear and sitting on the wet ground for 8 hrs--will remind me of bear hunting! Also remind me that after the first day I am ready to go home!

M

Thanks All for the thoughts and info RE 338 Love my old Alaskan 338WM and it has been sujested to me as a light rifle for my first safari. Thought some thing with penetration woiuld be prudent.
Michael I am stiill looking at/for a 416 and the B&M is sure in the mix. I am going to DSC in Jan so can try some hands on and LOP testing then will make a descision. Main thing is i am hoping to get to feel one of the AI stocks..

Best to all and thanks again



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Thanks All for the thoughts and info RE 338 Love my old Alaskan 338WM and it has been sujested to me as a light rifle for my first safari. Thought some thing with penetration woiuld be prudent.
Michael I am stiill looking at/for a 416 and the B&M is sure in the mix. I am going to DSC in Jan so can try some hands on and LOP testing then will make a descision. Main thing is i am hoping to get to feel one of the AI stocks..

Best to all and thanks again



SSR

Cross
You are welcome. Always have some solids with you regardless of caliber or cartridge.

Well maybe there will be a B&M rifle lurking around DSC somewhere that you can put your hands on as well?

Michael

Wooha! 2 large boxes of bullets were delivered about 5 minutes ago! They're absolutely beautiful!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I will never, ever, not once ever, be caught in the field again without a good solid, or several!

. . .

Many years ago, . . . just on the other side of a home made fence, tightly woven with 3-4 inch sticks . . . LAST DAY of the hunt and just on the other side of this little fence was what I was there for!

I had a 338 Winchester, had been using 250 gr Nosler Partitions, and had seen some really crappy terminal performance on a few animals, and I was not as confident as maybe I should have been with this bullet combination. . . . I was not quite confident that my bullet would go through this and hit where I wanted it to? ... I thought about shooting through the fence, and I wished with all my might I would have had a solid to get through the fence without destroying bullet integrity! I thought very hard about this, and in the end I decided I did not trust the Nosler Partition to do this, and the last thing I wanted was a wounded leopard! I waited some more. To my great disappointment he stood, crouched, turned and disappeared back the way he had come so silent, so quick, I still wonder sometimes whether it was real or not? But the opportunity was gone forever. . . .

But if I had a solid, I would have taken the shot through the fence without hesitation, it was an easy shot. Yes, the Partition would have most likely done it, but I was not willing to take the chance, and kept hoping he would take that 1 last step just out in the open for a second! But he didn't, and I didn't have the solid, and I did not have the confidence in the bullet I was using! So as we move through life, we hope we learn something from our experiences, and if possible, maybe we can be more successful, Next Time?

Michael

Michael, if it's any consolation, you made the right decision. In fact, as difficult as it might be to resist, I think that you made the right decision even if you had a solid. It sounds like those sticks in the fence were round, and that means very uneven, unpredictable knots, hardspots, and possible deflection. All it would have taken was an unpredictable 2-3" deflection and you would have had the worst of all situations, a wounded leopard. And a non-expanding solid would not have been the bullet of choice on a leopard, even without the fence, though it surely would have worked with a clear field of view at 30 yards.

what would be nice as a follow-up, before taking a shot with a solid through a bunch of dried branches is to test this.

Find some hard and softwood dry branches that can be inserted vertically into the paper medium every three to six inches down the center of the box. See if a flat nose solid stays straight for 60 inches if it clips 6 to 10 branches at unpredictable angles. If even one of the branches causes a bullet to veer 10-20 degrees, you may be thanking yourself for that most difficult wisdom to acquire as a hunter, passing up a shot that one can probably make. With dangerous game, the first shot is always (correction: almost always) in our hands.

Anyway, it's good to hear of your old 338 stories. Just remember, you can call it a 'guinea fowl gun' instead of a rat calibre. It has a much more useful and tasty connotation. We've taken four guinea fowl in the last two years with a 338 Win Mag out of four shots. (Hey, we missed two with a 416, but it hadn't been sighted-in tightly for 100yards.) If the 338 is not a guinea fowl gun I don't know what is! It's the least that one can do for a calibre that has served well when called to duty.

And your last piece is the 'take-home message':
"There are many many many reasons to have a good solid where you can put your hands on it, regardless of caliber or cartridge! And NO REASON AT ALL--NOT TO HAVE ONE!!!!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Just out of curiosity does any one make a decent solid in .338. Not that you would use it deliberately but a few solids might be comfoting while out rambling through the bush meat hunting.

Yep. You can bang-flop big stuff with a 338 FN Solid ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

And your last piece is the 'take-home message':
"There are many many many reasons to have a good solid where you can put your hands on it, regardless of caliber or cartridge! And NO REASON AT ALL--NOT TO HAVE ONE!!!!!!"

Tanzan

That might be one of those Michael quotes to keep for later reference, but if I do, I loose the note, and then forget the quote! HEH HEH!


I am quite sure I made the right decision not to shoot at the time for sure, you know how hardened those little home made sticks-3-4 inches in diameter are, not far from petrified! Way back then it would have been one of those old Barnes RN Monos if I would have had one. But one can't help but consider "What If".

I have always been meaning to get to the "Shoot through the Sticks" test, but seems there is always so much to do and can't get to it.

As you know, I have always been a 338 caliber fan. Used them a lot in the field, always good results, If I had the right bullet. I was never pleased with the older Nosler P. I went to a Swift A way back and results picked up a lot. I left 338 behind when I got the 358 STAs, and did a lot of work with 358 from 2000-2004 using mostly two bullets, 250 Hornady for light critters, 280 Swift A for heavy. At that time the Barnes was still a crap bullet without the bands. I had that rifle shooting 310 Woodleighs with the Swift and Hornady as well, both soft and FMJ, although I never used them in the field, had that big FMJ handy where I could pluck a few out if needed. From that "Leopard" episode, I was never caught again without a few solids or FMJs.

Was also doing a lot of work in that time period with 458 Winchester and 458 Lott. When in the field rifle was RTG with either 450s Expanding/Solids or 500s Expanding/solids. But always had a lighter bullet for those lesser critters that would shoot with the others.

In 2006 my entire philosophy of "load out" changed. Some know this little story, and I am bad to repeat myself, so those that know, ignore-HEH. Anyway, was on the first field outing with a .500 prototype, actually the current cartridge in the big semi auto gun, the 50 B&M SA. Was on a 5 day shoot, wildebeast, zebra, impala, and anything that presented a shot. Testing the bullets available at the time in .500, which were all handgun bullets. I had tested of course in the "lab" and had adjusted velocity to fit bullet performance, most of the time down.. I needed a solid for the .500s, so JD came up with a little 408 gr RN patterned after a Woodleigh. To me a solid was a solid, but since I was going to the field with less than optimum bullets at the time, I did not want to loose any critter to poor bullet performance. So, my load out was just like for buffalo, two solids down, expanding first. Well, everything performed excellent, except the RN Brass Solid--I watched it take turn after turn and change direction in eland, wildebeast and other critters! I was astounded at this, and very disappointed. While we were doing this, an excellent opportunity came up for 4 elephant--dirt cheap, and I wanted those elephant, but I did not have the bullet for that, Another decision made, I turned them down on the premise I did not have a proper solid for that after seeing the performance on lesser critters! No way! Could not do it.

This is when I went to work hard for a better solid, and here we are today.

But that little shooting excursion stuck with me, and today, regardless of the hunt, I carry two solids down, first shot is expanding. I have used this on all sorts of game to good effect. Not being one to shoot and see what happens, I immediately shoot some more anyway. I have used this on plains game, bear, of course buffalo as always, and with good success. My reasoning is this, whether one may have a bullet failure, or one may just make a bad shot on the first shot, if that animal does not drop immediately one should always take every opportunity to shoot again, always. Solve the problem, if the problem is not solved then you still have work to do--never quit and see what happens, shoot again and again, until the problem is solved, or you cannot shoot again for whatever reason! Now, if you made a bad shot, bullet failure, whatever, on a kudu, eland, elk, moose, bear or whatever, most of the time what sort of shot is going to present itself??? A very high portion of the time you are looking at the ass end of an animal steam rolling in the other direction. What sort of bullet do you want to rely upon to get from the ass end of a eland, moose, bear or elk, to the front end of said critter? Oh, we have some premiums that might do the job, SOME of the time, but Every Time? For this reason I always back those shots with a PROPER FLAT NOSE Solid, and this works great for me, and gives me lot's of confidence should I have that long terminal penetration shot, then I have something that will do just that.

In the old days my ammo load out was heavy to expanding, and carry a few solids or FMJs. Today, that load out is the other way around, heavy to solids, and a few expanding.

Now with these new NonCons, and the deep penetration they give and the extreme trauma inflicted, this could change somewhat in the future? But at best I think a 50/50 split, I am not quite ready to go less on my solids just yet!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Just out of curiosity does any one make a decent solid in .338. Not that you would use it deliberately but a few solids might be comfoting while out rambling through the bush meat hunting.

Yep. You can bang-flop big stuff with a 338 FN Solid ...

They are accurate also

Thanks to Blair for the Giraffe, John for the Lapua range work, and Michael for testing all the 338's.

Well, looks like the fellow who made that fine looking bullet needs a "Thank You" too!


Mighty fine J, Mighty fine!

Michael

Since Terminals are directly related to velocity, and velocity to pressures, we continue to do some pressure traces with various bullets and designs of course. Currently we look at a lot of things, but right now let's visit the Hollow Base designs again.

In theory the hollow base should reduce pressures as what we have effectively done is increased case volume. This is panning out to be true, in MOST cases, but not all. I am very early into the test work, and few conclusions can be made from the little work done thus far, but beginning to identify factors. After the other day fully expecting pressures to be lower with the hollow base in all cases, it was a surprise that with the 50 B&M this was not the case, and in fact pressure had risen with the hollow base by about 5000 or so PSI. While with the 500 MDM the pressures had gone down by about the same amount with the Hollow Base????

This brought it down to 3 factors as I could identify--Cartridge Specific, powder related, or design and shape of the hollow base itself.

I was leaning heavy to the last two factors, powder and hollow base shape. So with the offending cartridge, 50 B&M, I loaded up another load of IMR 4198, a load of H-322, and last a load with RL 10X. Both with the 460 gr CEB BBW #13 HP and HB. Here is a report on those results;




As you can easily see the IMR 4198 once again produced higher pressures with the HB than the HP?

The H-322 and RL 10X produced lower pressures via the Hollow Base--as we would expect.

This pretty much rules out "Cartridge Specific" at least to this point, and leads us to looking harder at "Powder Specific" issues.

Questions? Yes--First, if charges of H-322 and RL 10X are increased--Will this cause a reverse as we get to higher pressures? Would the reverse be true with IMR 4198, taking charges down to decrease pressures--Will that reverse?

We will see, and I will work some with the 500 MDM and some different powders to continue the search.

Next we all know that once we start to get heavy bolt lift, we have already gone over safe margins, right? This is one of the reasons I like the Pressure Trace, one gets some pretty close numbers if everything is hooked up correct and input is correct. Notice the IMR 4198 load with the Hollow Base, a tad over 70000 PSI. I rate the B&Ms at 65000 (per Michael so for what it is worth). At 70000 I got some resistance to bolt lift, and a little shiny mark on the case to prove it;




If you get shiny marks on your cases, and a bit of bolt lift that is abnormal, back it down!


Michael

quote:

If you get shiny marks on your cases, and a bit of bolt lift that is abnormal, back it down!


Michael

That is a very helpful picture for pressure signs with the controlled-feed actions. Books often show the round circle of the push feeds. Your photography is clear and in focus, too, so that a slight cratering seems to appear around the firing pin imprint.

I'd guess that you'd want to drop about two grains of that powder and load.

It is very definitely nice to see that H-322 and RL-10x are working properly with this HB profile (the hole diameter and hole depth combination) …at least with this level of loading…as they are two of the powders I intend to use with the 50 MDM cartridge.

However the HP/HB testing with the IMR-4198 powder is most interesting. It definitely is not the optimum powder to use with this HB profile as it results in higher pressure rather than lower pressure. Inversely, it would appear that IMR-4198 is the perfect “benchmark powder” for determining the optimum HB profile (ratio of hole diameter to hole depth) while maintaining 460gr bullet weight with the 50 B&M cartridge.

Tanzan

Yes, I think two gr with the HB and about 1 with the HP on that load.



Jim

I think you are pretty much spot on with your observations.

I am going to try some different things today and tomorrow to see what happens as well. I have some suspicions to sort out with several things.

M

I really, really hope this hollow based bullet powder gets settled soon.

I've always been somewhat of a nut about front ignition shells, bullets with primers in their base, and duplex and triplex charges. That's a topic worthy of a completely different thread and effort. I'd hate to see this thread going in that direction.

IBT

Quit choking on your drawers and chill! Some of this is viable to terminals! Some indirect, but we will get over it--I figure if it has to do with a bullet we can talk about it!

In the meantime I am working on things as normal! I have my drawers in a wad right now with this explosive "Lion/Bear Bullet"---And getting some thoughts, ideas, and working towards one of those in the near future, but want to get all the BBW #13s sorted out in various calibers first.

Michael

NOW LISTEN UP!!!! THE FOLLOWING IS A TEST ONLY! We have the right formula for petal shearing brass and copper NonCons and don't need to worry with that.

What you see here in this post is a continuing drive to investigate some different things--and in particular what I am looking for is an explosion within a thin skinned critter, like lion and bear, with large chunks of petals, blades, shrapnel causing tremendous transfer of trauma to target, devastating and immediate effect that turns these animals inside out, and skins them for you at the same time.

We already have the turn a critter inside out bullet, the CEB BBW #13 HPs in Standard form--Now I want to skin'em, dress'em, and gut'em!

The last time we had this discussion a couple weeks ago some got the idea we are still working on the BBW #13 HPs--Sam and I are taking this beyond that into some different research right now. So lets revisit and get some background on this first.

When I made the last .500 order a few weeks ago, on a whim I told Dan to make some Hollow Points, brass with a .800 deep cavity instead of the standard .400 deep cavity. What I am looking for is that explosive effect possibly for lion and bear, and still having adequate penetration of the remaining slug. I ordered 5 boxes of 18 to experiment with.

Re-post this photo of performance.





Well in both cases the results were devastating, large chunks of bullet shearing off, smaller remaining slug continuing to penetrate. But, blades and chunks of shrapnel staying within or very close to the center wound channel. This is a subject we are going to discuss after this initial post as a separate subject but directly related, along with penetration. Which penetration is very adequate with these bullets as is--for the mission statement of these.

Sam took some home with him and within a day or so shot a deer at 5 yds, with totally devastating results, much the same as the test work.

Sam modified 4 bullets, two styles and sent them to me, I tested them yesterday;

Continued so as to not confuse;

Hey Sam:

Thanks again for loading the .416 Remington Mag rounds for me with the Non-Con bullets. As you know, I used them a few weeks ago on two cape buffalo I shot in Zimbabwe. The 330 grain bullets performed remarkably well. These cape buffalo were my 12th and 13th that I've taken and I have to say I have never seen buffalo go down so quickly. Both animals were shot from approximately 70-80 yards with classic behind the shoulder shots and both buffalo were down within 20 feet. I recovered the bullets from both animals and they performed as you thought they would. The vitals of both buffalo were absolutely shredded. You'll see from one photo that the heart from the big bull looked like a grenade had exploded in it. The bullets traveled through bone and tissue and were embedded under the hide on the opposite shoulder. I have killed buffalo with a .375 H&H, .416 Remington Mag, .450 Dakota. .450 Nitro Express, and a .577 Nitro Express with a variety of bullets and loads. Nothing I have used to date has performed like these bullets have. No dangerous follow up through thick jess bush was required which greatly pleased the PH, Trackers, Game Scout and Client! As always, no bullet construction will make up for poorly placed shots, however, I have witnessed the devastating efficiency of these bullets with proper shot placement and plan to use them in the future for all my dangerous game hunts. Thanks again.

Your friend,

Doug

This was what my friend Doug had to say about Non-con bullets.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
416 330 non con verses buffalo. This is my friend Doug with his buffalo shot with a non con.

Just a review of the non con.

Sam

Here are the modifications Sam made;




Instead of an "R" rated name for the bullets on your right, I called them "UnderCuts". The bullet on your left Sam actually did not deepen the cavity, but evened the sides up and I think attempted to put cuts on the inside? Correct me Sam if I am wrong. Enough metal removed to reduce weight to 400 grs.

Sam has been curious about the undercut for some time now.



Well it appears the "UnderCut" changed the dynamics of shearing and breakup dramatically! As you see both bullets sheared only on one side, causing both to tumble, and ramble about in all directions. Still devastating, but a little too UNPREDICTABLE for my tastes! Certainly would hammer whatever this hits, no doubt, but I like a little more predictable results. Penetration was not short and was more than adequate for mission statment.

Now, the more even wider cavity that Sam did;



Not a lot of difference between the original test and this one. All shrapnel found within or close to center wound channel, devastating and lot's of trauma to target, dead straight penetration of the remaining slugs, and penetration more than adequate for mission at hand, in fact this penetration would be adequate for buffalo, and most likely NOT EXIT on broadside.

Michael

Michael,

The larger hole (wider) I made so I could use a tool I had to cut the relief cuts deeper. Now some of the uneven shearing may be caused by my cuts not being perfectly even. I did the best I could with what I had. If we could cut the relief cuts more even I think this bullet would be great. Its not bad in its original form. The undercut bullets I made the undercut at the bottom of the relief cuts that were .400 deep. Sure thought that one would blow its nose better. OH well back to the drawing board.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Hey Sam:

Thanks again for loading the .416 Remington Mag rounds for me with the Non-Con bullets. As you know, I used them a few weeks ago on two cape buffalo I shot in Zimbabwe. The 330 grain bullets performed remarkably well. These cape buffalo were my 12th and 13th that I've taken and I have to say I have never seen buffalo go down so quickly. Both animals were shot from approximately 70-80 yards with classic behind the shoulder shots and both buffalo were down within 20 feet. I recovered the bullets from both animals and they performed as you thought they would. The vitals of both buffalo were absolutely shredded. You'll see from one photo that the heart from the big bull looked like a grenade had exploded in it. The bullets traveled through bone and tissue and were embedded under the hide on the opposite shoulder. I have killed buffalo with a .375 H&H, .416 Remington Mag, .450 Dakota. .450 Nitro Express, and a .577 Nitro Express with a variety of bullets and loads. Nothing I have used to date has performed like these bullets have. No dangerous follow up through thick jess bush was required which greatly pleased the PH, Trackers, Game Scout and Client! As always, no bullet construction will make up for poorly placed shots, however, I have witnessed the devastating efficiency of these bullets with proper shot placement and plan to use them in the future for all my dangerous game hunts. Thanks again.

Your friend,

Doug

This was what my friend Doug had to say about Non-con bullets.

Sam

Well, honest to God, how does it get any better than that?????

This bullet was one of the SSK/Lehigh Bullets I had for my 416 B&Ms. Of course it was tested several times, and of all of the NonCons I had tested, while it was FAR ahead of ANY conventional premium bullet, it came up short when compared to other NonCons in penetration. Performance of the blades and shearing action was superb, same as all Brass proper NonCons, 6 blades, shear and move away from center. But this bullet always lost some stability at the end of it's penetration.

When we decided to take the standard #13 Solid and make hollow point NonCons out of them I wondered how they would penetrate after they shear. So far every single one of them has sheared and gave dead straight penetration, deeper than other NonCons I have in .500, .458, and now .416 as well!

I figured the instability with the 330 SSK/Lehigh was simply my 416 B&M barrels and 1:14 twists. I really had little other explanation. And truly since it was a NonCon and not a solid, I was not really concerned about that instability at the end of penetration, as it made little difference at that point anyway. It was not doing that half way through penetration, just the end every time.

I received the new 325 gr CEB BBW #13 Brass HPs ordered for the 416 early in the week. Tested yesterday.



I expected pretty much close to the same results as I received with the 330 SSK/Lehigh, but I was proven wrong!





To be honest I always have been a little "Ho Hum" about 416 anything. I have to wonder if there is really much to one, when compared to a 458--.500! Yesterday, I began to get a little more excited about 416 caliber! This 325 CEB BBW #13 HP combined with the 350 CEB BBW #13 Solid--makes for one hell of a combination!

These are exciting times with these NonCons---I tell you now, this is the "Bullet Of The Future", In my book, For me, Other Premiums just went "EXTINCT"! I swear I may have a "Premium Bullet Sale" very soon!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
416 330 non con verses buffalo. This is my friend Doug with his buffalo shot with a non con.

Just a review of the non con.

Sam

This is what this is all about--We ain't here to look at and study "Target Paper Punching" crap--we are here studying these type of bullets for big bores in use for Dangerous Game of all sorts!

THat is the mission of this thread---And it is accomplishing the Mission well!

CONGRATS TO DOUG--CONGRATS TO NONCONS!!!!!!!!

Michael

quote:

Not a lot of difference between the original test and this one. All shrapnel found within or close to center wound channel, devastating and lot's of trauma to target, dead straight penetration of the remaining slugs, and penetration more than adequate for mission at hand, in fact this penetration would be adequate for buffalo, and most likely NOT EXIT on broadside.

Michael

Ok, I have been following this post with great interest for some time now but have never posted but the quote on top made me jump in. The bullet looks to be like a real killer and should drop most game alsmot on the spot especially on softer skinned game. But I don't think personally that it should be used on tough skinned game like buffalo without a exit it will be difficult to track down a wounded buffalo as a result of bad shot placement and it will be more difficult to try hit vitals on angled shots. Yes it was devstating on the buffalo above but would it have had the same impact if the buffalo was hit in the gut ?

This only relates to the Undercut bullets and I suppose the buffalo above was not shot with these but with the Non Con Bullets.

I can not Overemphasize how much easier the job is of tracking if we have a decent exit wound and blood flowing on game being followed. Except for the obvious tracks it tells a story and gives you an idea on where an animal was hit.

quote:

without a exit it will be difficult to track down a wounded buffalo

WHAT? Wait! For years we've been hearing from all y'all expert African hunter Dudes that an exit is baaaad, a waste of "energy" expended. In fact, I believe your budddy Gerard developed his FN Solid specificaly to "mushroom" thereby making a bigger permanent wound channel. Makes sense to me. Then there's the whole "overpenetration" crowd. "Gonna kill three or seven Buff with that one non-con". Gut shot" Huh? Every micron of evidence I've seen indicates these "non-cons" will expand on any target offering more resistance than cardboard. You guys are a fickle lot. Not to worry though, Michael is working on a bullet which changes from cup & core to monometal FN to Non-Con to rubber mid trajectory so you guys will have a perfect bullet for all situations on all game whether ficticious or otherwise.

Well I have always wanted exit wounds the more tracks and signs an animal leaves the easier for us. But you are right I doubt if we will ever get the perfect bullet or caliber but I'm sure Micheal will come close.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:

quote:

Not a lot of difference between the original test and this one. All shrapnel found within or close to center wound channel, devastating and lot's of trauma to target, dead straight penetration of the remaining slugs, and penetration more than adequate for mission at hand, in fact this penetration would be adequate for buffalo, and most likely NOT EXIT on broadside.

Michael

Ok, I have been following this post with great interest for some time now but have never posted but the quote on top made me jump in. The bullet looks to be like a real killer and should drop most game alsmot on the spot especially on softer skinned game. But I don't think personally that it should be used on tough skinned game like buffalo without a exit it will be difficult to track down a wounded buffalo as a result of bad shot placement and it will be more difficult to try hit vitals on angled shots. Yes it was devstating on the buffalo above but would it have had the same impact if the buffalo was hit in the gut ?

This only relates to the Undercut bullets and I suppose the buffalo above was not shot with these but with the Non Con Bullets.

I can not Overemphasize how much easier the job is of tracking if we have a decent exit wound and blood flowing on game being followed. Except for the obvious tracks it tells a story and gives you an idea on where an animal was hit.

Frederik

Merry Christmas from our side the pond!

So glad you quit lurking and joined in, welcome. I think we have a LOT of lurkers, why they don't want to jump in and discuss such things I can't imagine, I always welcome everyone, well almost! Some things get very controversial when talking bullets, but we try.

Frederik, as you well know, there are and always have been Two very distinct Camps on this subject, regardless of whether we talk about defensive handgun bullets or buffalo bullets and everything in between, there are those that want exits and those that do not.

FOR THE RECORD

Michael likes to put lot's of holes in all his animals--I have a very good taxidermist, and this means if I can get "TWO" holes, with one bullet, Michael is very happy! Therefore I am very strongly in the "EXIT" Camp.


Now remember Frederik, those two bullets in .500 caliber I am working on what I call a "Lion" bullet, our buffalo bullets are already set in stone, the CEB BBW #13 HPs Standards, with .400 deep cavities--They will exit buffalo on broadside, I believe, almost without fail. Just FYI.

The Undercut bullet is not working in a predictable manner--so that experiment is over, and that bullet taken out of the equation.

The other, still in the working stages, as I am very interested in following this up.

In fact, if you read above in my posts I mentioned two things, two parts of a continued discussion, this exit or not exit is one of those two discussions on these bullets, and you beat me to it, good job and very observant.

Two Camps--Two Philosophies. Really, neither one can be classified as "Right" or "Wrong", it merely depends on the Objectives of the individual doing the shooting. Absolutely there are times when one would rather the bullet NOT exit, but kill like lightning! Other times, blow through and make another leak down hole to follow blood trails.

We all have different objectives. 465HH is very experienced shooting buffalo and elephant, and he is strongly in the Do Not Exit Camp. I didn't just get off the "Banana Boat" yesterday myself, I am very strongly in the penetration Exit Camp. Who is Right? Who is Wrong? Neither, we have different Objectives. And this is exactly why I made the statement that Frederik refers to;

quote:

Not a lot of difference between the original test and this one. All shrapnel found within or close to center wound channel, devastating and lot's of trauma to target, dead straight penetration of the remaining slugs, and penetration more than adequate for mission at hand, in fact this penetration would be adequate for buffalo, and most likely NOT EXIT on broadside.

Michael

Now I have never been one to buy into the "Miracle Bullet" that strikes animals down like lightning--and when you get to buffalo, that's a whole other story. Nothing Blows Buffalo over! Or does it? Well, buffalo are about as tough as it gets, but these damned NonCons seem to be causing the buffalo I have seen some concerns! I used a .500 caliber 470 copper HP on those Australian buffalo in 2009, in the case of the copper NonCon the blades shear throughout penetration, slug continues on, blades stay within wound cavity causing great trauma, slug exits. But I had to have velocity to do this, 2425 fps at the muzzle, when velocity dropped below a point, this bullet become "Conventional" with no blade shear. It was FAR more impressive when the blades shear, and the slug exits, both in the amount of trauma inflicted, and animal reactions--which all dropped to the dirt at the shot.

Now, the brass HPs shear different with 6 blades moving away from center wound channel, at least the Standard CEB BBW #13s, slug continues dead straight, to incredible penetration depths.

Now we know how to shear the brass and stay within wound channel! But which is best? Is there a difference and does it matter? This is the next area of discussion of the two I mentioned.

Now the NonCons are inflicting a hell of a lot of trauma to target, and target of this discussion is buffalo! These bullets are hammering buffalo to the dirt. They are not running away with good hits, to continue the fight--not so far anyway!

Miracle bullets for buffalo? Maybe! Look good so far, but I will take the standard CEB BBW #13s that drive deep and transmit lot's of trauma along the way.

Michael

Frederik

The buffalo shot above was with a SSK/Lehigh brass NonCon 416 caliber 330 grs. In the test medium it would drive to 20-24 inches, but loose stability at the end. This is why I believe that it remained in the buffalo and did not exit. Still regardless, two buffalo down and out very nearly on the spot.

The CEB BBW #13s drove to 31 inches this week, and dead straight. I think these will exit buffalo without any issue at all.

The so called "Lion" bullet I am playing with, I don't think will exit buffalo, but will in a pinch sort one out if one had to do so. But I rather have the standard #13 Brass "Buffalo" bullet for buffalo! Penetration always trumps for me.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Not to worry though, Michael is working on a bullet which changes from cup & core to monometal FN to Non-Con to rubber mid trajectory so you guys will have a perfect bullet for all situations on all game whether ficticious or otherwise.

Mac J

You were not supposed to tell this yet! What's with you? This was a "Top Secret" "Need to Know Only" project!!!!!!!!

Well, now that you let the cat out the bag;

OK, I have been working on a secret Hollow Base, liquid metal, bullet! While in the case it remains solid in a CEB BBW #13 Solid configuration--67% meplat. Once it is fired and exits the muzzle it goes to it's liquid form from midway of the bullet all the way to the end of the nose, solid in the rear, with hollow base containing a small jet pack for tremendous velocity boost via remote control. With it's on board heads up flight system, it recognizes the intended target. Input into the chip in it's tiny brain are the following dangerous game animals, Elephant, hippo, buffalo, lion, leopard and the great bears! Once the target is recognized, and the angle at which the target is presenting, the nose shape changes to one of 4 configurations, a CEB BBW #13 Solid, or a #13 Hollow Point with .400 cavity, or a #13 Hollow Point with a .800 deep cavity, or a cup point. The chip in the brain of the bullet is able to recognize the target first, then the angle of which the target presents, and then chooses the correct nose profile for optimum transfer of trauma and penetration. It has the capability of recognizing an "INNOCENT" bystander than may be behind the target, and can also change configuration inside the target once OPTIMUM penetration has been achieved. There is a small charge of explosives in the middle of the Hollow Base, but this is a optional add on. Once within 25 yards of the target the small rocket booster kicks in to add another 2000 fps in velocity.

Now another option for this bullet, although it is a little expensive, is the "Optional Radar Tracking", once the bullet has locked onto the target, should that target run, or go into heavy brush, the radar unit kicks on and tracks the animal until it makes it's final run. This is a little expensive right now, but we hope to get several million units out there, and then the price can come down some.

Right now the current price is averaging around 1.2 Million US dollars per unit, or each. Once we get the system up and running then I am sure that price will drop some.

I really think this is the "Miracle Bullet" of the future. We are working on one currently that is "Safe" for double rifles as well. These will be available in calibers from .458 to .620 caliber to begin with. Currently the technology is not small enough yet to put in minor calibers like 416 or less! We are working on this.

This bullet does come with a 100% guarantee as well! Should it not perform exactly as you wish it to perform, then please recover it and send it back to us and we will replace it for you. ( Did I mention the automatic self destruct device?)



MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

Michael