Dave we all have our preferences.

I don't dislike the TSX bullets, unfortunately Barnes only makes them in 400gr in .423 caliber so I had CEB make me 300 rounds of their MTH style bullets in 340gr. Also ordered a batch of 430gr .500 caliber MTH bullets - no TSX rifle bullets in .500 caliber... Anyway I'm now set for longer range work in both calibers.

If the 280gr .366 BBW#13s don't work in your 9.3x74R DR due to the band location, you could always work with Dan at CEB for a Nitro Express series of .366 caliber bullets that have the bands in the correct location.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Boomy, I hear ya man. I guess I am just too old school.

I love tradition and old school too.
It is kind of tradition to use the latest technology. That's what the greats always did. Smokeless powder then better projectiles. Lots of the great carts started off as black powder and cast lead. X bullets are awesome but quite modern. Cast and jacketed bullets are more old school and nothing wrong with that. It's a matter of style and preference I get it. X bullets are held as the standard bearer for modern bullets for good reason but a person who uses brass hollow point bullets like the CEB lines of non con and Raptor are forward thinking types who want the most lethal bullets.

It warms my heart to hear of the TSX or rather the X bullets being referred to as conventional and old school now days. I fought and still do, to get fellow hunters to appreciate the quantum leap in bullet technology that the TSX represented over and above traditional "premium" bullets. Now, even the TSX has been relegated to being "ordinary"!

Technology marches on!

Dave,

Have you tried the BBW#13's in the Chapuis? Very curious now that you brought that up as I've shot about 40 rounds of the solids and 80 rounds of the non-cons through mine. If you are having problems with them, what specifically is happening? OAL measuring too long or having trouble closing the action due to being too long? If I remember correctly, you and I both have the UGEX model.

Todd, I am not sure this is even a problem but I loaded up a several BBW#13s and took them to the range. All the cases had been trimmed to 2.931 and the bullets seated with the case neck just below the last band but not crimped. I put two in the gun and closed it without any undue force. I then opened the gun and took the bullets out. In the right barrel and only the right barrel, it appeared to me that the bullet had been pushed into the lands. I shot both barrels without a problem. I am told that others have had this problem as well. I need to try some more but I would suggest you try this and see and see how it works in your gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd, I am not sure this is even a problem but I loaded up a several BBW#13s and took them to the range. All the cases had been trimmed to 2.931 and the bullets seated with the case neck just below the last band but not crimped. I put two in the gun and closed it without any undue force. I then opened the gun and took the bullets out. In the right barrel and only the right barrel, it appeared to me that the bullet had been pushed into the lands. I shot both barrels without a problem. I am told that others have had this problem as well. I need to try some more but I would suggest you try this and see and see how it works in your gun.

OK, now this sounds familiar. I think we talked about this a couple of months ago. I did place a round in both barrels and did not have the marks on them with my rifle. Do you know who the others were that had the same issue? Also, is this happening with both the solids and non-cons or just the solids. For some reason, I'm thinking you may not have tried the non-cons, preferring the TSX or WL.

Todd:

I have not tried the non-cons. Michael mentioned that some others at the Safari Club convention had a similar problem. I am thinking that CCMDoc might have been one of them.

Dave

No worries buddy! I understand old school, not so long ago I was, and in many ways, still old school. Man we are blessed with so many good bullets today. Many have answered the call, in many ways. My path and search for better bullets took off seriously in 2006 when I discovered my own 50 B&M had the potential, but no bullets available to fulfill that potential. This started the path in which we are on today, and has led us to where we are now.

JD led me to Lehigh, where I finally started to get somewhere. There were choices, brass, copper. I chose copper at the time, for no other reason than weight. Still old school. Needed that weight for penetration. At velocity the copper blades would shear off! Damn, still old school, that had to be bad! But yet it seemed to do ok and hold it's own in the field, and I had little choice anyway. 2007 I went to the field with several Lehigh bullets, elephant and buffalo. All good, all worked, found out my 50 B&M was more than adequate and was actually a stopper! But still, on buffalo while it did every bit as good as anything I had ever used, it was not the drop dead hammer that it was on elephant--I had more work to do, but for the life of me I did not have a direction. I kept at it, and in 2009 in Australia I had the 500 MDM and a 470 Copper Lehigh HP at a touch over 2400 fps. I hit the ground and was convinced before the first round was ever fired I needed a heavier bullet, I was going to have a 500 done or maybe even 525 soon as I returned. That is until I hit the first old bull and watched that 470 HP go to work. At that velocity blades sheared, remaining bullet exited, I could see the trauma inflicted at the shot, massive knock them out trauma. This continued right through to a total of 13 buffalo included 2 good bulls with the 500. That trip I also had the 458 B&M on it's first outing for several more 7 of my own and a few more of some others in followups with more conventional bullets, including Swift and Woodleighs. I knew I had no further need of weight and began to study this in a more serious manner.

There had been occasion to use some brass HPs, along with the copper. Discovered brass shears easy and consistent, the copper did not shear consistent and remained within center wound channel, while brass blades sheared at the same point and continued away from center. What caught my attention was that the center bullet continued to penetrate reaching depths for expanding bullets that had not been heard of in my test work. Even then, it took a bit for my hard head to catch on, but with penetration it is hard to fail. Failures occur from a lack of penetration, not from added penetration. Blades from the brass bullets were penetrating far beyond their weight? Shear at 2--penetrating in some cases 8-10 inches! That is 6-8 inches penetration for a tiny little 10 gr or so projectile--Not Possible in this test medium! Hell, most small caliber handgun bullets won't penetrate that much! Figured out they are not pushing, but slicing their way.

I am still learning how this relationship between the bullet and the blades works. At first I viewed the 6 blades as separate projectiles, slicing through vitals, vessels, and doing most of the damage on their own while the center bullet continues to penetrate doing even more damage as penetration increased. From day one it seemed as though when the blades sheared it was like a small explosion of damage, but still did not understand that completely. After last years buffalo and seeing the damage done in that short period of penetration from 2-5 inches I began to understand the relationship between the blades and the center bullet during that short time frame of penetration much better. And, if I had understood my own test work a little better, I would have also seen it in that.

During that short amount of penetration from the time the blades shear at 2 inches and up to about 5 inches the blades are still close to the center bullet. That tissue is being pushed outward by the center bullet, while the blades are ripping it to shreds, causing a massive amount of real trauma, and massive wound cavity at that point, before the blades continue on their path away from center, at which point they become separate projectiles working on their own and no longer part of the team. From frontals on buffalo I saw the most massive trauma to buffalo hearts I had ever seen in my life, the blades were still working with the center bullet at that point. From broadside, even heart shots, the blades had dispersed away from center by that point and had become projectiles on their own slicing vessels, lungs and such, with a center hole in the heart from the center remaining bullet. Not near as much damage to the heart itself, damage to other things was horrendous to say the least. This relationship between blades and center bullet is clearly shown in the test medium from two inches to 4-5 inches of penetration, and shown a page or two here.

So you see Dave, and all, we are on a journey of discovery here. Even now as we work with the smaller bore Raptors. What I have seen here is in the smaller bores the blades do not have enough mass to quickly move away from the center bullet, and remain closer to the bullet during penetration. What does this do for the small bores? Larger more ripping wound channels, as both are working together. Without enough mass in the blades, they don't move far from center, a relationship that seems to be working good for the smaller bores, and does seem to be beneficial. Between Sam and my buddie John here they have taken a dozen deer this past season with 223 BBW#13s, and EXP Raptors, and from what I understand massive trauma inflicted far beyond what a 223 is capable of, and it was Bang/Flop in each case.

This relationship of the blades to the remaining bullet, I am only recently coming to understand how it works on animal tissue. Many more have used the NonCons on thin skinned game than I have, one of the very reasons (other than drinking lot's of Castles and laying around half drunk) that I embark upon the upcoming trip is to study how this works on thin skinned critters and trauma inflicted, animal reactions, and so forth. Hopefully I come away with even a better understanding.

We will see!

Michael

A very good thread I just ran across Hunting Reports Africa, 458 Penetration. The fellow used a 450 Barnes Banded FN Solid on an elephant, excellent penetration--good read. Might want to check it out.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...601051371#1601051371

Just FYI---This was always a favorite bullet of mine before the BBW#13!

Michael

Recently and you know, I did the Low Velocity Shear Point for the two 416 BBW#13 NonCons. At the time, I had actually forgot that I had not UPDATED my stock of 416 NonCons, I still had the first, and OBSOLETE small cavity bullets, and none of the current version that were updated I think even before released to you guys. The Updated version ID Number is for the 325 BBW#13 NonCon DGBR-HP R05 and for the 370 BBW#13 NonCon DGBR-HP R06, which I got a number of those in the end of last week, and over the weekend got Low Velocity Shear Points on those as well.

325 BBW#13 NonCon DGBR-HP R05





As you can see both sheared readily at 1668 fps, no issues, good shear, straight penetration. Drop that IMPACT velocity to 1602, One Sheared perfect, one tried it's best but just quite did not get there. So it is my belief that an extra 50 fps impact puts it at positive shear point, so 1650 fps Low Velocity Shear Point for the 325 BBW#13 NonCon.

The 370 BBW#13 NonCon DGBR-HP R06







OK, I ran out of time Saturday and could not get to the Lowest Possible Point. As you see, both sheared down to 1600 fps Impact without issue. Taking a guess I would say probably at 1550 we would start seeing an issue, so I declared 1600 FPS as Low Velocity Shear Point for the 370 BBW#13 NonCon, at least until I take the time to go lower. I suspect I am all over it at 1600. So we go with 1600 right now.

Both of these are 150 to 200 fps less than the small cavity, a big difference in Impact Velocity.

If you start out the 325 BBW#13 at 2500 fps which is normal for the 416 B&M, then you have a Shear Range to 200 yards.

The 370 BBW#13 NonCon we have running 2450 fps in 416 Remington and the Shear Range on that is a tad over 200 yards.

With the new tips coming these ranges will be extended greatly with one that is tipped.

Just More FYI

Michael

Michael,

Big thanks for this one, just what I needed. Esp the Sheer range on the 325gr

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd, I am not sure this is even a problem but I loaded up a several BBW#13s and took them to the range. All the cases had been trimmed to 2.931 and the bullets seated with the case neck just below the last band but not crimped. I put two in the gun and closed it without any undue force. I then opened the gun and took the bullets out. In the right barrel and only the right barrel, it appeared to me that the bullet had been pushed into the lands. I shot both barrels without a problem. I am told that others have had this problem as well. I need to try some more but I would suggest you try this and see and see how it works in your gun.

OK, now this sounds familiar. I think we talked about this a couple of months ago. I did place a round in both barrels and did not have the marks on them with my rifle. Do you know who the others were that had the same issue? Also, is this happening with both the solids and non-cons or just the solids. For some reason, I'm thinking you may not have tried the non-cons, preferring the TSX or WL.

Yes I have had similar issues. I believe the nose projection is too long on the BBW#13 bullets. In my 375 flanged, and 577 nitro when I crimp in the top groove the bullet is into the rifling. Even through the nose projection is turned down and should clear the lands it seams with the slightly large chambers that nitro guns have they still bind a little. I have seen bullets pushed back .030-.050 inch when I close the guns. I am currently drawing up the changes that I want for some .474 & .585 solids and will be forwarding them to Dan to get my "own" run of these with my new dimensions.

I have had some discussions with Michael on this and he has advised of the adverse effects on shortening the nose projection. I am going to shorten them both .100" by moving up the top three bands. Also going to go a little deeper on the gooves between the bands and also widen the grooves between the bands by an additional .025" at least on the 577 and might do the same to the 474's. The current bullets I have on the .474 already have a deep enough groove. (.015") Also increasing the shank diameter between the rearmost band to the front bands on the .474's. For some reason only on the .474 BBW #13 bullets that I have they reduced the shank .031" from the bore size. Other CEB solids they only reduced the shank in this area by .015-.018".

My thinking here is if Sams nose projection theory is correct? That my increasing the distance between the bands is going to be detrimental to penetration. The increased diameter of the shank will decrease the grip the medium would have on the last band.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd, I am not sure this is even a problem but I loaded up a several BBW#13s and took them to the range. All the cases had been trimmed to 2.931 and the bullets seated with the case neck just below the last band but not crimped. I put two in the gun and closed it without any undue force. I then opened the gun and took the bullets out. In the right barrel and only the right barrel, it appeared to me that the bullet had been pushed into the lands. I shot both barrels without a problem. I am told that others have had this problem as well. I need to try some more but I would suggest you try this and see and see how it works in your gun.

OK, now this sounds familiar. I think we talked about this a couple of months ago. I did place a round in both barrels and did not have the marks on them with my rifle. Do you know who the others were that had the same issue? Also, is this happening with both the solids and non-cons or just the solids. For some reason, I'm thinking you may not have tried the non-cons, preferring the TSX or WL.

Yes I have had similar issues. I believe the nose projection is too long on the BBW#13 bullets. In my 375 flanged, and 577 nitro when I crimp in the top groove the bullet is into the rifling. Even through the nose projection is turned down and should clear the lands it seams with the slightly large chambers that nitro guns have they still bind a little. I have seen bullets pushed back .030-.050 inch when I close the guns. I am currently drawing up the changes that I want for some .474 & .585 solids and will be forwarding them to Dan to get my "own" run of these with my new dimensions.

I have had some discussions with Michael on this and he has advised of the adverse effects on shortening the nose projection. I am going to shorten them both .100" by moving up the top three bands. Also going to go a little deeper on the gooves between the bands and also widen the grooves between the bands by an additional .025" at least on the 577 and might do the same to the 474's. The current bullets I have on the .474 already have a deep enough groove. (.015") Also increasing the shank diameter between the rearmost band to the front bands on the .474's. For some reason only on the .474 BBW #13 bullets that I have they reduced the shank .031" from the bore size. Other CEB solids they only reduced the shank in this area by .015-.018".

My thinking here is if Sams nose projection theory is correct? That my increasing the distance between the bands is going to be detrimental to penetration. The increased diameter of the shank will decrease the grip the medium would have on the last band.

Interesting stuff there Mac. I haven't run into these issues with the 9.3 for sure but to be honest, I didn't check it in my 500NE. I've shot quite a few CEBs through both guns now without a problem but I'll take a close look at my 500 next time out. I also have a new 500 on order so I'll be looking for an issue with that gun as well once it arrives.

quote:

I believe the nose projection is too long on the BBW#13 bullets. In my 375 flanged, and 577 nitro when I crimp in the top groove the bullet is into the rifling.

So why not have the shank above the top groove to be set to the rifling diameter? The 375 flanged could have the nose projection at .366" or .365".

Mac,

Buried within the BB TBP thread is the original .500 caliber 500gr 4-band BBW#13 bullet - the 4 bands are equal spaced from top band to base band and there was no decrease in penetration vis-vis the current production 4-band bullet with the 3 upper band grouped closely together and the 1 base band so this is not an issue.

Michael's most recent testing indicates that the total smooth surface between the upper band to the meplat is critical to maximum depth of penetration with the BBW#13 FN Solid. Unfortunately I'm not on my laptop right now so can't find my notes on this data but proper feeding always tops slightly more penetration.

Michael has done much fine tuning of of the bolt gun and lever gun BBW#13 bullets...perhaps its time for some of you DR guys to work with Sam and Dan to fine tune the Nitro Express line of BBW#13 bullets to maximize their use and performance for all DRs. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I believe the nose projection is too long on the BBW#13 bullets. In my 375 flanged, and 577 nitro when I crimp in the top groove the bullet is into the rifling.

So why not have the shank above the top groove to be set to the rifling diameter? The 375 flanged could have the nose projection at .366" or .365".

The bands are set at groove diameter and the shank should be .011+ smaller than the bore diameter.

On my BBW#13 bullets the shank diameter between the bands is smaller tha the shank diameter just above the upper band to the Ogive...so perhaps this area need to be cut to the same smaller diameter as the lower shank for the Nitro Express BBW#13 bullets? Just throwing a thought out there.

Thanks Mac. I didn't think I was the only one with this concern.

Todd, I seem to remember Michael saying at some point that Sam was crimping his 570 grain bullets for his 500 NE express above of the top crimping band to get them to work.

Cappy, I agree with you completely. If we are going to have the DOUBLE RIFLE BULLET OF THE FUTURE, then there needs to be a Nitro Express series of BWS#13 solids of the correct weight designed with the bands in the correct position for the double guns. The North Fork "truncated cone" design solves this problem and I have not had a problem with the Barnes solid in my 470 but I think the BBW nose profile is the best and I would sure like to find a way to make them work.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I am still learning how this relationship between the bullet and the blades works. At first I viewed the 6 blades as separate projectiles, slicing through vitals, vessels, and doing most of the damage on their own while the center bullet continues to penetrate doing even more damage as penetration increased. From day one it seemed as though when the blades sheared it was like a small explosion of damage, but still did not understand that completely. After last years buffalo and seeing the damage done in that short period of penetration from 2-5 inches I began to understand the relationship between the blades and the center bullet during that short time frame of penetration much better. And, if I had understood my own test work a little better, I would have also seen it in that.

During that short amount of penetration from the time the blades shear at 2 inches and up to about 5 inches the blades are still close to the center bullet. That tissue is being pushed outward by the center bullet, while the blades are ripping it to shreds, causing a massive amount of real trauma, and massive wound cavity at that point, before the blades continue on their path away from center, at which point they become separate projectiles working on their own and no longer part of the team. From frontals on buffalo I saw the most massive trauma to buffalo hearts I had ever seen in my life, the blades were still working with the center bullet at that point. From broadside, even heart shots, the blades had dispersed away from center by that point and had become projectiles on their own slicing vessels, lungs and such, with a center hole in the heart from the center remaining bullet. Not near as much damage to the heart itself, damage to other things was horrendous to say the least. This relationship between blades and center bullet is clearly shown in the test medium from two inches to 4-5 inches of penetration, and shown a page or two here ...

... This relationship of the blades to the remaining bullet, I am only recently coming to understand how it works on animal tissue. Many more have used the NonCons on thin skinned game than I have, one of the very reasons (other than drinking lot's of Castles and laying around half drunk) that I embark upon the upcoming trip is to study how this works on thin skinned critters and trauma inflicted, animal reactions, and so forth. Hopefully I come away with even a better understanding.

We will see!

Michael

You are onto something here!
Keep up the good work.
Have a nice working vacation on safari.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I believe the nose projection is too long on the BBW#13 bullets. In my 375 flanged, and 577 nitro when I crimp in the top groove the bullet is into the rifling.

So why not have the shank above the top groove to be set to the rifling diameter? The 375 flanged could have the nose projection at .366" or .365".

For just a smidge of clearance was my thinking?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Thanks Mac. I didn't think I was the only one with this concern.

Todd, I seem to remember Michael saying at some point that Sam was crimping his 570 grain bullets for his 500 NE express above of the top crimping band to get them to work.

Cappy, I agree with you completely. If we are going to have the DOUBLE RIFLE BULLET OF THE FUTURE, then there needs to be a Nitro Express series of BWS#13 solids of the correct weight designed with the bands in the correct position for the double guns. The North Fork "truncated cone" design solves this problem and I have not had a problem with the Barnes solid in my 470 but I think the BBW nose profile is the best and I would sure like to find a way to make them work.

For some reason I just like the way they crimp and I think they look better under the top band. That's just me. Seams to be a little more secure as well.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I believe the nose projection is too long on the BBW#13 bullets. In my 375 flanged, and 577 nitro when I crimp in the top groove the bullet is into the rifling.

So why not have the shank above the top groove to be set to the rifling diameter? The 375 flanged could have the nose projection at .366" or .365".

The bands are set at groove diameter and the shank should be .011+ smaller than the bore diameter.

On my BBW#13 bullets the shank diameter between the bands is smaller tha the shank diameter just above the upper band to the Ogive...so perhaps this area need to be cut to the same smaller diameter as the lower shank for the Nitro Express BBW#13 bullets? Just throwing a thought out there.

I want the grooves about .012-.015" deep so I can put in a little more aggressive crimp. .0085 groove depth like the ones in on my 577 bullets does not give enough room for the crimp I like.

Mac, Dave, Todd, doubles and issues. Without having the issue in front of me I am having a bit of a problem understanding how it can be an issue? To the best of my knowledge Sam has not had any issues with cartridges chambering, bullets going into the rifling things like that. ????? This one you really need to get with Sam about I think. I did a lot of loading 500 Nitro over the last few weeks and did nothing special, crimp under the top band, and shoot. Zero issues. I know of none that Sam has had with anything. On his VC the only reason he loads over the top band is that it seems to regulate better, not because he has to? The nose projection part of the bullet is .012 under bore size, there is no way that is hitting or touching in the bore.

Ahhh, but I am no double expert either, so I really can't say much, so don't listen to me! Perhaps if I had it in hand I could figure it out and sort it out, but don't send one either, I don't want it. HEH................. Best take this one up with Sam!

SAM--Where are you--Our boys need some help!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Night, past my bedtime. I have had a long day and JD and I have had a wonderful little visit today. We talked long about bullets and all sorts of things! He is headed back to SSK with some new ideas and most likely will be working on some new things in the future. For now, however its time to go.

M

OK I'm not sure what you guys are having a problem with. The nose on these bullets is supposed to be .012 under the diameter of the bullet. Now if your bore diameter is .012 or more under your groove diameter there might be a problem. .012 should work in almost any gun so your problem may be your bullet was not seated straight or you have crimped to heavily and bulgded the case. With one band out of the case there should be plenty of room before you touch the rifling. Now some older guns do have short throats but I doubt they are only .060 as that is about the width of the band. As Michael said in my VC 500 I seated the bullet below the top band because my gun shot better that way. In the Sabatti we used for our tests the bullet was seated with the top band above the case and crimped in the first groove. Now I'm going to state again that you need to seat bullets first and crimp in a second operation if you don't you will most likely get a bulge at the top of the case and this might make you think the bullet is touching the throat. I will go back and read more about the issues some of you are having and be sure I'm clear on what you issue is.

Sam

I would want a chamber cast if they would not chamber. Also what is the brass thickness? Would be interesting to measure the loaded rounds and fired cases too.

Sam:

I don't have a micrometer but my trusty caliper says that you are correct. The nose is about .012 under the diameter of the bullet. There should not be a problem so that is why I am having trouble understanding what I am seeing as well. As I said, I need to work with this a bit more. The chrony should give me the answer.

Do me a favor! Take a CEB #13 bullet and see if it will go in the muzzle of your gun, bullet nose that is. If it goes in easily then you have some other problem than the bullet hitting the throat. If it doesn't then you need to find out what you bore diameter is. If you have a tight bore I'm sure Dan would be glad to make a special run to fit your guns.

Sam and Michael,

Just for the record, I have not had the issue being described here. I seat with the top band above the case on both the 9.3 and 500. I went back and checked the solids and non-cons in both rifles and mine are not touching the rifling while in the chamber.

Strange especially considering Dave and I have the same make and model 9.3's.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Do me a favor! Take a CEB #13 bullet and see if it will go in the muzzle of your gun, bullet nose that is. If it goes in easily then you have some other problem than the bullet hitting the throat. If it doesn't then you need to find out what you bore diameter is. If you have a tight bore I'm sure Dan would be glad to make a special run to fit your guns.

Have done that at least with my 577 that has the most problems. It is a very tight fit. Does not engrave the bullet with the lands but you have to get your shit lined up real straight and wiggle the bullet a little before it will slide in.

Sam:

One other thought. You said your 500 shoots better when the bullets are seated more deeply. Maybe it shoots better because when you seat the bullets deeper, they are no longer engaging the lands? Just a thought.

Will try your test this am.

Sam:

I tried dropping the 9,3s in from the muzzle and they dropped in with no problem. The right barrel is slightly more snug than the left.

Just by way of comparison, I have some Barnes flat nose banded solids for my 9,3, 470, and 500 Jeffery. Again, this is with a caliper and not a micrometer but the Barnes bullets seem to have just a bit greater reduction on the shank above the top cannelure. The 535 grain .510 bullet measures about .495 above the top cannelure. The 500 grain .474 bullet measures about .457 above the top cannelure. The 250 grain .366 bullet measures about .353 above the top cannelure.

I am thinking that if reduction in the shank above the cannelure of the BBW#13s was increased from .012 to .015, they would work in most any gun. What do you think?

I have had no problems in any of my doubles with the bullet nose or bands touching the rifling. They flop right in and it doesn't matter if one band is out or not. When originally setting up the size of the nose I suggested to Dan that they be minimum of .012 under bullet diameter to about .014. He used the .012 figure which should be fine. Most rifling is only .004 deep. This would be a total of .008 so you should have .002 per side clearance. Now some of the older guns could have tighter bores. Those who have tight bores might want to have a special run made to fit your guns.

What make are the guns you are having problems with? Are they modern or period guns?

Sam

Sam:

My gun is a new Chapuis 9,3X74R. I think Mac has a Heym .577.

My 375 flanged, 470, & 577 are modern Heyms.

Have you tried putting the nose of the bullets into your muzzles? If they go in easily then you problem is something other than the bullet.

Sam:

Yes we have. See answers above. Mac is having a problem in at least two different Hyems. I am having a problem in a Chapuis. I can work this out because I am only having a problem in the right barrel and I would normally be carrying a solid if the left. However, the fact that this is happening in three guns of two different brands and three seperate calibers suggests to me that the problem is the bullet, not the guns. IMHO, the forward shank of the BBW#13 solids need to be reduced by at least .014. I like these bullets and I want them to work but if not, there is always the North Forks.

How about putting black marker on the loaded rounds and see where they are getting caught up. These are bore rider bullets so I'm wondering gmhow they would be getting caught up. More reason for a chamber cast or slugging the gun maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Sam:

Yes we have. See answers above. Mac is having a problem in at least two different Hyems. I am having a problem in a Chapuis. I can work this out because I am only having a problem in the right barrel and I would normally be carrying a solid if the left. However, the fact that this is happening in three guns of two different brands and three seperate calibers suggests to me that the problem is the bullet, not the guns. IMHO, the forward shank of the BBW#13 solids need to be reduced by at least .014. I like these bullets and I want them to work but if not, there is always the North Forks.

I may be wrong but since you are only having trouble with the right barrel and not the left it appears that it may indeed be a gun problem. I suspect the right barrel was cut using and old reamer, resulting in minimum dimensions and he left with a new reamer resulting in maximum dimensions. Possibly a little opening of the throat will solve your problem.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Sam:

Yes we have. See answers above. Mac is having a problem in at least two different Hyems. I am having a problem in a Chapuis. I can work this out because I am only having a problem in the right barrel and I would normally be carrying a solid if the left. However, the fact that this is happening in three guns of two different brands and three seperate calibers suggests to me that the problem is the bullet, not the guns. IMHO, the forward shank of the BBW#13 solids need to be reduced by at least .014. I like these bullets and I want them to work but if not, there is always the North Forks.

I may be wrong but since you are only having trouble with the right barrel and not the left it appears that it may indeed be a gun problem. I suspect the right barrel was cut using and old reamer, resulting in minimum dimensions and he left with a new reamer resulting in maximum dimensions. Possibly a little opening of the throat will solve your problem.

465H&H

H I think you are on the right track here... Another possibility is the reamer was not run into both barrels to the same depth... The tight chamber might be slightly shorter in depth than the "ok" barrel. I believe I'd have a discussion with my factory representative to have the chambers inspected and have the tight chamber matched to the "no problem" chamber.

Okay, I give up. It's the guns. My Chapuis and two of Macs Heyms in three different calibers that shoot every other bullet without a problem.

There are no two chambers that are exactly the same. We're talking thousands of an inch here. Moving on to the next topic.

If the bullet goes in the muzzle easily then it would have to be the throat area in your chambers. .014 would not hurt a thing but it is hard to believe the bores are that small.

It's an intriguing mystery. Marking a loaded round with black marker and seeing definitively where the rub is would be helpful.