Wet paper won't tell you crap! HEE HEE

Great star pattern of damage
Seems those blunt tips are helping open up the petals sooner with more of a flat surface to push back.

I am greatful that Dan and Michael have been great in the pursuit of excellence. Some of the higher SD Rsptors have been frustrating but as is well documented when things are right they are awesome!

I see that Cutting Edge Bullets has booth #715 at the NRA Convention in St. Louis, April 12-15, 2012.

http://www.nraam.org/

Even more reason to attend:
Larry the Cable Guy will be there too.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Wet paper won't tell you crap! HEE HEE

Yes Sam, that is what "THEY" Say! The question should be this--How do "THEY" know this? As "THEY" have never done it, tested, compared, did both test work and field work, exactly how is it that "THEY" know this? THEY read it somewhere, and repeat it as fact, and that came from the same source, another "THEY" that has not done it, and THEY really don't know, just Monkey See Monkey Do Monkey Repeat!

Fortunately, you and I know better, as WE HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, and WE KNOW. "THEY" can kiss my ass! And their "Theories" as well.



When the Raptors are right, it does not take much science to know that. No tweaking has to be done, they shoot right off, no issues, no problems. .458 300 Raptor is RIGHT. But I am betting that the 350 does not do so well???? Dont' know, find out this weekend. Along with some different things. I want to do terminals on the 458 300 Raptor, maybe tomorrow.

Michael

Never seen anything like it! The first time I saw that star splitting of the media I was amazed. Never seen any other bullet do anything like that.

quote:

.458 300 Raptor is RIGHT. But I am betting that the 350 does not do so well???? Dont' know, find out this weekend. Along with some different things. I want to do terminals on the 458 300 Raptor, maybe tomorrow.

I am betting that 350's will do great.
If you happen to chance on another bad printing load, then either increase or decrease powder for about 75-100fps difference and see how the load prints on target.

Tanz

The 350s are on the edge (I think) at 1:14. I shot 6 yesterday, two groups, pretty tight however, but not as good as the 300--Now, before I declare I got to do a lot more--Could have been me? Or something else---Honest, I think they are going to be ok--1:12 very sure of.

More work required.

Next, I have terminals 300 Raptor-NonCon, Tips, Solid, and Low Velocity Shear. I have low Velocity Shear on 416s--what I had the other day at 1800 fps was all with the OLD CAVITY that has LONG since been changed, in fact, NONE of you out there have ever seen the OLD CAVITY--that was changed long ago. I just did not have any, and it slipped by me. The Current 325 BBW#13 NonCon has a 1650 fps Low Velocity Shear. The 370 BBW#13 NonCon has a 1600 fps Low Velocity Shear--that is 200 fps lower than the very first ones done. That is substantial in my book.

Soon as I can I am collecting Low Velocity Shears and BCs on everything--I will have a PDF document on this very soon! Available to you, and to CEB.

When I get all this put together I will get photos and such posted with reports. Low Velocity Shear Points are very very time consuming. It took over 3 hours just to get the 416s done today, and only that, nothing else. A lot of back and forth, load and test, load and test and so forth.

Later
M

Ordered some (500 gr) CEB 13's a few weeks back for my Heym 88; 470 NE.
Went the farm this weekend and tried them out. They shot very well. Used 92 gr (RL 15) & Hornady brass and a Knoch wad. Chrono'd the velocity @ Hi 2206 FPS; Lo 2176 FPS 15' from the muzzle.
Loaded quite a bit and shot quite a bit.
The same load using a 500 gr swift A frame produced identical velocities.
NF SS 500 gr achieved a tad lower velocities with 90 gr of powder (closer to 2150). These shot very well too.
Woodleighs (500 gr) shot 100 FPS slower than the Swifts and CEB's with the same powder charge (92 gr RL 15) 2086 FPS.

I do not have as nice a set up as Michael but I do have my 12" diameter "pin oak" medium. The Swifts did not pass through; The CEB's drilled straight through.
Interesting thing about the CEB's. They are the first bullet I have ever tested in my "engineer medium" that I could see daylight through the hole in the tree, just about like you bored it with a wood bit.
This leads me to believe the key to the penetrating capability of this projectile is that it "cuts" through stuff rather than pushes through as a round nose may. That stretching or elastic deformation in a medium can soak up a lot of energy. An assumption.....

EZ

I got 20 feet of 3/4" barstock 7075-T6 I am thinking of sending Dan for experimenting.

Gonna need some tips to go with 'em too.

My thoughts are to slightly shorten the BBW#13 NonCon and create a tip so overall length will remain the same.

Starting with 155gr of H335.

I was recently told by the creator(of the 600OK)to expect velocities pushing 4000!..."They are real splatter bullets out to 100 yards or so!"


'Squatch

Aluminum raptors or non cons are quite interesting.

a brief aside-any thoughts on brands of chronographs? is the oehler 35P still the gold standard?

SSR

Cross, I use PACT Pros here on the range. Have 3 of them, have been very pleased, all have performed well, no issues, and are close as can be.


300 ESP Raptor 458 caliber









Michael

Proven again, I see, light weight hollow point bullets need high velocity to expand well, a fundamental principle:
"SD drives expansion."
Duncan MacPherson in his book
Bullet Penetration,
but it is really all about momentum, a product of velocity and mass.

Lighter bullets, higher velocity and higher sheer velocity.
Heavy bullets, slower but lower sheer velocities.
Faster bullets more damage but less penetration on the lighter.
Seems simple and logical.
Use the right bullet for the job.
If the Lott shoots the 300 grain bullets at 2,700 fps it should be good for maybe 250 yards.

According to the BCs that I got here, which keep in mind are dependent upon my two chronos working together and my computer program doing what it is supposed to do--so consider them close estimates only of BC. The 300 Raptor as a NonCon only NO TIP, started at 2700 fps has a Shear Range of a bit over 125 yards. Add the current short flat tip we have--NEW ONES COMING-- and that shear range is extended to 250 yards. Nearly double, which is what I am finding with the current short tips.

New tips that will have a better BC are designed, and being done, this week I think. The thinking now is that the BCs will come in somewhere between the short flat tip, and the longer pointy tip, which will again extend that shear range fairly considerably I think.

I won't have much time to test many of these new tips before leaving, on my return I can go to work on them. It does not take much to get the BC estimate.

Getting low velocity shear is a time consuming project and is going to take much longer to accomplish. I have .264, 9.3, 416, 458, complete now. Working on the rest. Important to me before leaving is .500 which is next up. By the way, the big 825 .620 NonCon shear is 1400 fps or less, we have that from the work done with Doc's 600 OK. The .620 and .585s are not a concern with Low Velocity Shear--there is so much mass pushing behind them they will shear at very low velocity no doubt. The .620 was tested at 1441 fps muzzle, 22 yd impact which is unknown and it sheared and penetrated. The cavity is the same on the .585, so it will shear at the same impacts and less, so on the data sheet I am working on, I am going to declare Low Velocity Shear on those at 1400 fps impact. Agreed?

Michael

Should there be the groove diameter on the hollow point end at the bottom of the counical part? In other words is there a reason for the 4 grove diameter bands and not 3?

So the 300 grain 458 bullets need a minimum of 2,280 feet Pounds of energy to sheer.
Question is how much energy is used in the left over base to penetrate that far? Hmmmm. What is the ratio of energy dispersion between the sheer and penetration or how much energy is shed creating that cavity pressure to blow. If the solid end of the raptor is going twice the distance as the blown base even if it does so more efficiently there is roughly half the energy dumped in the blowing off process and petal damage. So roughly half of the energy used for the penetration of the base and half for the petal affect. Is that a good rough estimate? Interesting.

Michael:

I don't know if you have seen this or not but Woodleigh is working on a round nose cap for the Woodleigh Hydros to aid in feeding. Here is the link:

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/whats-new

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Should there be the groove diameter on the hollow point end at the bottom of the counical part? In other words is there a reason for the 4 grove diameter bands and not 3?

I wondered about that myself, was it done to make the bullet more usable in the .45 caliber lever guns?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Should there be the groove diameter on the hollow point end at the bottom of the counical part? In other words is there a reason for the 4 grove diameter bands and not 3?

I wondered about that myself, was it done to make the bullet more usable in the .45 caliber lever guns?

Was thinking the lever gun with a short tip might work like that but I would rather the added powder room. I'm wondering if there should be 3 not 4 bands.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I don't know if you have seen this or not but Woodleigh is working on a round nose cap for the Woodleigh Hydros to aid in feeding. Here is the link:

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/whats-new

Dave

No, I have not seen the Woodleighs. Dan and I have been talking about one for the NonCons however, but we have so much to do with the Raptors and the regular higher BC tips the RN tip is on the back burner, but a very easy solution for NonCons. Solids, I don't think so. Anything that detaches, and a cap for solids would have to detach, could cause too much disturbance in flight. The RN tip for a NonCon would act just like the current higher BC tips and no issue.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:
DocM,

And some 250 odd grain .423 (aka 10.75 mm) Raptors?

Doc, just bugging you. Incredibly fascinating work you folks are doing.

Esskay,

These likely won't be done quickly as there are to few of us using that caliber...or at least we're not a coordinated group. That said, I talked to Dan early on and he'll cut the Raptors as soon I'm ready to order. Weight wise, a 250-255gr bullet would be perfect in this caliber as the "do all" Raptor.

For those looking for a heavier Raptor - that'd be 275-280gr weight BUT this heavier bullet will require a minimum 9" twist rate to work properly so this is a really small market!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I don't know if you have seen this or not but Woodleigh is working on a round nose cap for the Woodleigh Hydros to aid in feeding. Here is the link:

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/whats-new

Dave

No, I have not seen the Woodleighs. Dan and I have been talking about one for the NonCons however, but we have so much to do with the Raptors and the regular higher BC tips the RN tip is on the back burner, but a very easy solution for NonCons. Solids, I don't think so. Anything that detaches, and a cap for solids would have to detach, could cause too much disturbance in flight. The RN tip for a NonCon would act just like the current higher BC tips and no issue.

M

Looks like Woodleigh has been paying attention to this thread and results with the tipped Raptors!

I wonder how much bullet manufacturers are paying attention and making changes.

Some such as GSC were already ahead of the curve - others not so much. I do believe that Woodleigh made a smart decision with their Hydro Cap...but does it enhance the performance of the Hydro or does it only assist feeding. As the Cap is a feeding assist for bolt guns...perhaps they need to offer a more aerodynamic cap the increse the usability of the bullet.

For the most part, the Woodleigh Hydros are for penetration on heavy game, not long range shooting. Thus, I think a cap, if any, is more to aid in feeding. Most dangerous game (buffalo, hippo, lion, elephant) is shot at very short distances so I think all this talk about making a high ballistic tip bullet is overrated because the shooting is close and we already have super high ballistic tip bullets likes the TSX anyway. The BBW#13 solids are superb but the Raptors just give me a headache.

I don't know if a round nose tip would add much BC to the BBW 13 but it would help the hydro more.
The BBW13 profile feeds well for a flat nose. A hybrid 13 degree conical and rounded tip would be interesting though and might give decent BC gains and add to slick feeding. Could shorten the tips by a third. The hydro was designed to maximize stable deep penetration but I think the BBW 13 solids have it beat.

If the Raptors out perform the TSX's in terms of penetration and damage I think it gives the animal a headache and much more. The TSXs and raptors are apples and oranges. They function differently but I like the damage the raptors do more. The TSXs use resistance to peel and retain petals while the Raptor uses pressure to blow the petals off and thus more damage. The contact surface of the TSX does some cutting but it is much less than the raptor and the raptor does that damage over a greater area. The Raptor utalizes the temporary wound cavity energy to its advantage with the petals cutting deep over a greater area.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
For the most part, the Woodleigh Hydros are for penetration on heavy game, not long range shooting. Thus, I think a cap, if any, is more to aid in feeding. Most dangerous game (buffalo, hippo, lion, elephant) is shot at very short distances so I think all this talk about making a high ballistic tip bullet is overrated because the shooting is close and we already have super high ballistic tip bullets likes the TSX anyway. The BBW#13 solids are superb but the Raptors just give me a headache.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
For the most part, the Woodleigh Hydros are for penetration on heavy game, not long range shooting. Thus, I think a cap, if any, is more to aid in feeding. Most dangerous game (buffalo, hippo, lion, elephant) is shot at very short distances so I think all this talk about making a high ballistic tip bullet is overrated because the shooting is close and we already have super high ballistic tip bullets likes the TSX anyway. The BBW#13 solids are superb but the Raptors just give me a headache.

Dave,

I most definately am not arguing that DG shooting is up front and personal. Shooting elephant would be with a FN solid, lion would not be with a TSX or TTSX as I'd be concerned they would pencil through with minimal damage, and hippo would likely be with a combination NonCon followed by FN solid. Which leaves buffalo.

Michael's testing has revealed that NonCon's and Raptor's within mass terminal performance is not detracted by higher velocity and that use of ballistic tips with these bullets results in enhanced within mass bullet performance at close range with the additional that the ballistic tips help maintain this within mass terminal performance at longer distances.

Now I have read where cape buffalo with well placed shot(s) in the boiler room are still able to run quite long distances and that some follow up shots before the escaping buff disappears from sight are taken at 100 or so yards. So if I'm using NonCons or Raptors , rather than TSX bullets, why wouldn't I want to use ballistic tipped bullets to enhance their distance performance?

Now regarding the caped Hydros...I have no idea if the caps will enhance the Hydros within mass performance or not, but there is a potential that it my assist in maintaining velocity over a greater distance so why wouldn't I want to use the caps for that 'Murphy's Law' escaping buffalo?

Anyway just my opinion which might be worth a cup of coffee at most.

quote:

The BBW#13 solids are superb but the Raptors just give me a headache.

Dave

You think they give you a headache??? You should be in my shoes!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I don't know if a round nose tip would add much BC to the BBW 13 but it would help the hydro more.
The BBW13 profile feeds well for a flat nose. A hybrid 13 degree conical and rounded tip would be interesting though and might give decent BC gains and add to slick feeding. Could shorten the tips by a third. The hydro was designed to maximize stable deep penetration but I think the BBW 13 solids have it beat.

Boomy a round nose tip would enhance the within mass performance of both the NonCon and Raptor but I perceive it's use would be limited to the lever guns and DRs...though they would also work in magazine/cartridge length challenged bolt guns.

Dan's new tips will eliminate Michael's B&M magazine issues eith the Raptors as well as provide a higher BC than the large-flat nose tips. They should eliminate most all magazine guns tip issues while those with sufficient magazine space can still enjoy the High BC tips for maximum performance. Would be nice if Michael received some to take on his hunting trip for real world results.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

The BBW#13 solids are superb but the Raptors just give me a headache.

Dave

You think they give you a headache??? You should be in my shoes!

Just swap out all those slow twist barrels for fast twist barrels and your headaches are solved!

I think its time for some decafe...

The issue with the Raptors has been, and to an extent still is, "Conventional Thinking". Dan, myself, Sam, Boomy, and most of us "Think Heavy". Examples, are multiple, nearly every caliber while we think we have chosen a light for caliber bullet weight, it has traditionally still been a few grains too heavy, too long. We thought a .264 110 gr was the weight to have--Wrong, 100 is excellent. 224, 50 is very heavy and requires at least 1:9. 40 for 1:12, not sure about 1:14, but 40 will probably work. Jim is right, fast twist guns are needed for the Raptors. In .257, the 70 is far better than the 80s in my 25 WSSMs. Sometimes just 10 grs has made a big big difference in stability in the small bores. I was first thinking 220 for the 9.3, at the last second we decided 210 to be safe, and we were spot on with that. 338, the 200s I think are better than the 225s, and I have not got to shoot the 175s yet, but I bet they are super. Got to go one step below "Conventional Light For Caliber" and you are there. Performance? Well, penetration is more than any conventional, and they hit ugly up front! So we see what we see in a couple of weeks.

But when they are right--they are right I can tell you, and consistent. My 9.3 B&M and the 210 Raptor are very good, one hole regardless which end. Terminals are incredible. I expect some really good performance when I get on the ground in a couple of weeks, if I do my part. I must keep ranges reasonable, and within "Shear Range" for the bullet to do it's work. I look forward to a good test with the Raptor in 9.3. We are pushing hard for a .500 Raptor before I leave, and new tips.

Should be interesting I think. Thing is, I have shot a good many of the animals that I am going to be shooting so I have a pretty fair idea about "animal reactions" taking the hit. I already know what is going to happen with internal terminals, but what I want to see from animal reactions is how much of that trauma is transmitted, shock, whatever you wish to call it when the animal takes it, and what happens immediately afterwards. I will try and take lot's of "ugly" terminal photos also.

Michael

Agreed Michael. I see the 130 grain 308 Raptor as the ideal. .196 SD and it performs incredibly because of the nominal 1 in 10 twist barrels.
Looking at the performance at the 40 grain 22 cal Raptor with it's mere .114 SD I have to say SD is is not as important as velocity. SD is the ratio of diameter to weight. I see what we see with the Raptors is the relation of length, weight and diameter to stability in nominal twists. We have lighter materials adding length and finding the ballance of ideal length and weight for nominal twists for a specific diameter a dance where we have stepped on some toes leaning the physics of it all. With the slower twist big bores we need to drop down the SD to the lower SD ranges of .15 ish. God bless Dan and Michael for having the patience because the fruit of it all coming together right is awesome.

Cappy, I have talked about this with Michael a number of times. I love the BBW#13 solids. I think Michael and Sam have done something pretty special here. I also love the Woodleigh Hydros. One of the greatest advantages of these two bullets is that they turn even marginal calibers into stone cold killers. I talked to a PH about a lever gun safari with a buffalo on the menu. He said I would have no problem taking a buffalo with my 450 Marlin with a Woodleigh Hydro in the tube and BBW#13s (or Barnes Busters) in the magazine but for me anyway, the Raptors or non cons are just a bridge too far. I love the TSX because, in most cases, they penetrate well and have 100% weight retention. I don't want my bullets to come apart and I am very skeptical about secondary damage caused by the petals. I think the non con works because it turns into a jagged wad cutter. Nothing wrong with that. I just prefer the TSX. One other problem I have had with the CEB bullets is that the ones that were designed around the B&M series of cartridges sometimes have the crimping groove in the wrong place. I have to work with them some more but the 286 grain 9,3s BBW#13 may not work in my 9,3X74R. When seated at the crimping grove they may be pushing into the rifling. If they don't work, I will give the North Fork solids a try. However, the .458 400 grain BBW#13s work perfectly in my lever guns because they were designed with the lever guns in mind. I have a Chapuis flanged .375 on the way and I am most anxious to try some BBW#13s in that gun. I am not a naysayer but when it comes to expanding bullets, I am a TSX guy (and Woodleigh too).

Good luck and good hunting.

Dave, is not the primary purpose of the hunting bullet to kill? The X bullets are some of the best conventional bullets and look pretty while retaining high weight but I want a bullet to kill and kill quick. Animals don't care about weight retention. The Raptors are not ideal for Buffalo. That's what the Non Con DGBR bullets and solids are for. What kills an animal? Blood loss and tissue disruption. I think these Raptors and Non Cons do it better than X bullets. What is the goal of the hunting bullet? To be as high an SD as possible? No. Kill, Kill, Kill and do that well. X bullets kill well enough but these do it better. A bullet is a means and not an end.

Boomy, I hear ya man. I guess I am just too old school.

Dave, You should have no problem with the BBW#13's 286gr in your Chapuis 9.3X74R. They work fine in mine.

I'm taking the 500NE and 9.3 with Non-Cons this fall to Zim for Buff. Solids for Ele. I'll let you know how the non-cons work. I was skeptical as well and love the TSX, but I'm willing to give them a go.