Paul

I am cooking with them, that's for sure. 3.7 COL. Will check 600 Nitro, Basically just need cartridge/mouth length. I have 600 OK here, so can check that. Hopefully both will work out the same.

I am pretty sure whatever we come up with in doubles will work for bolts, bolts for doubles, MOST of the time, maybe not always.

Correct me, but I am told, I think it's 450 Nitro--.457, not .458? I think we are going to do a 480 for that one, at .457. Of course .457 will do fine in .458 also. 458 going to probably do at least 3 weights, 450, 480, 500. 416 350-360, might do 360 to be different. Will stabilize as well as 350 in 1:14-1:16. I am just rambling by the way. Also do a .410, but has to work in the new 410 B&M too, well, maybe. Might lighten up to 350 for the B&M?

I think I need to shutup!

Nothing will happen anywhere until Sam returns and we do the new barrel strains with the 4 bands. At that time (I am quite sure all will be well with the strain tests) Sam and I will sit down and get particulars on a big run of bullets in all the calibers. I am sure we will have some questions for some cartridges we don't have, so we will be sending out for help at that time. Don't be too far away when that time comes.

I did take notes however on that, 3.7, got it.

M

Michael,

Don't stop just because I've gone hunting! You still have plenty to do!

As far as the 450NE goes I think .458 should be the diameter but there may be a few that want .457. With the narrow bands I don't see any problem if bullet is slightly overbore. Weight needs to be 480 to match original loads.

Sam

Sam

Oh don't worry, I have plenty to do in your absence. I already have the week lined out with different tests to conduct.

I think once we do the strain tests on the new 470s--that will be waiting on you when you get back--Solids and HPs. Then we can sit down, draw things out, discuss all aspects per caliber and get some things settled pretty quick.

For now, don't worry, we will sort it out. Go bust some of those big 577s off in something. I would say recover some of them if you can, but I have my doubts. Line up two elephants, maybe we can get a bullet back? HEH HEH.

Be safe!

Michael

Michael,

Thanks man. No I better not line 2 up because I don't think Parks will like that too much. You might have to come and bail me out. Looking forward to seeing Africa again and wish you could be there to watch the #13 in action. Maybe next year!

Sam

Sam,

When are you leaving?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Then we can sit down, draw things out, discuss all aspects per caliber and get some things settled pretty quick.

Let's see.

When it gets to 416 we'll want a 4-banded solid around 350 grain,
but maybe even more innovatively, for the hollow point we will want to shrink the body length and maybe let the #13 taper go all the way to almost the diameter of the hollowpoint. Unless there is an easy way to curve an ogive. Anything from a 325-350-grain result ought to work. (Jim Capoward has some software for estimating these things, and is already happy with his 300 grain in .500 cal.) This should produce an exploding-7-projectile non-con.

Seven? Well, there are the six shallow penetrators, maybe 8-12" and then the center core that should go 30-35". If the formula works in 458, it ought to work pretty well in 416, too. I've even got a name for these if you can handle the background music for riding into some stunning hunting country: "Magnificent Seven" exploding hollow points with guaranteed 4-foot penetration on animals. Someone ought to be able to market that.

Tanzan

465 H&H,

I'm leaving tomorrow and hope to be hunting on the 11th.

Sam

Good luck! I leave on the 12th.

465H&H

465H&H,

Thanks and you have a great trip also. I wish I had as many elephant on the list as you do!

Sam

Tanzan,

You give me way too much credit, knowledge and skill. Here’s some background info.

After having shot Michael’s little 416 B&M with bullets ranging from soft nose spitzer, semi spitzer, small HP spitzer, and large HP (somewhat similar to the BBW #13 HP) bullets at 325yds I was totally surprised at how accurate these various .416 caliber bullets were at that range especially the small HP spitzer (Barnes TSX) bullets.

Anyway I got a wild hair (I don’t recollect what Michael said but it was definitely blunter words) for a 325yd .500 caliber HP Spitzer bullet for use on large ungulates in the Western parts of North America in my 50 MDM rifle. I was thinking that a 380gr (.217 SD) HP Spitzer would be provide the optimum trajectory, velocity, and energy in the .500 caliber out to 325yds or so and drew my rough bullet drawing accordingly.

Sam took my very rough bullet drawing and machined…geez I think 7 or 8 different prototype bullets of various weights and lengths including the really neat prototype trio of 435gr BBW HP Spitzer bullets (.249 SD) that surprised us all in Michael’s testing by working extremely well even with their small diameter HPs…they blew the HP nose into radius penetrating shards (even though the HP had no inside scoring) and giving 23” of penetration in the bullet box with an average 378gr retained weight shank.

Right up front I totally state that the prototype BBW HP Spitzer truly does not match the performance standard established by the BBW #13 HP! But it is certainly sufficient for large North American ungulates… it’s the target game. So…if 300-350yd performance is not required, the BBW #13 HP 4-band bullet is the preferred HP bullet choice.

Now back to a production .500 caliber HP Spitzer…I do have to agree with Michael and Sam on this…Dan’s (the CEB owner) forte is high BC long range spitzer target and hunting bullets. So Dan should be able to take my rough drawing and Sam’s really neat prototype improvements and then use his knowledge and experience to generate some extremely accurate 300-350yd correctly performing maximum ballistic .500 caliber bullets! Once the prototype CEB .500 caliber HP Spitzer bullets arrive and Michael has a chance to put them through his prototype bullet testing and approves the production design…then we’ll have something that can be taken easily down to .416 caliber for those individuals have similar bullet performance requirement.

Sam have a safe and enjoyable trip. 465H&H have a safe and enjoyable trip as well.

Have a safe trip both of you. Wish you luck. Looking much forward to hear about the 577#13 `s performance Sam...


Ulrik

Thanks guys!

Buffalo, Did you get the drawing I sent?

Sam

Hi Sam.
No i did not..
Can you PM it to me or send it on my email adress - ulrik.hentzer@gmail.com
Thanks a lot - and have a safe hunt Sam


Ulrik

Buffalo,

I'll try to send it before I leave.

Sam

Sam
You are supposed to be on an airplane!

Be safe my friend and can't wait to hear all about it!

Have a blast, so to speak.

Michael

Thanks Sam. Appreciate it..
R you using the 725grs #13 or the 750 grs#13 in your 577 for the ele hunt?


Ulrik

Buffalo,

Sent you the drawing. I'm using the 750 grain 2 band copper BBW#13 made by CEB. I think it is only proper that I get the first elephant kill with this bullet.

Sam

sam

enjoy and be safe, you will be asked for a full report and penetration debt as well, when you return.

best

peter

Peter

Your 12 Bore Copper Bullets are being run this week!

Michael

Thanks Peter,

I will try and collect all the data I can and should have video to show the effect if my camera man does his job.

Sam

Sam - please do make a lot of testwork on the ele when its down

Michael.
Pls do me a favour, try and load the 570 grs BBS .510" bullet to 2350+ fps in your 510 Wells. Just to see how much penetration you gain compared to the 2200 fps load...
Would like to see that, if you have time to do a few shots..

Ulrik

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:


One other point to ponder is that I have not run these bullets to the full potential of the 510 Wells either. Running rather average velocities of 2200 to 2275 fps with 570s and 535s. Velocity could be increased easy another 100-150 fps overall, penetration with all would also increase.


M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Peter

Your 12 Bore Copper Bullets are being run this week!

Michael

exellent michael, i am looking forward to that.

peter

JHC, let me catch up some today. Damn, sometimes one just has one of those days. Was up at 3:45 this morning, time change and all screws with me. Work like crazy, going to the range, trying to, have pressures I want to tinker with. 9 am, still have not made it. 10 Am, on the range, get a call, a friend is coming, needs a rifle. Have a 30/06 in the corner (no I don't shoot that-it's one I had to build something on and just never got to it) of course Win M70. He wants it, set it up with scope, have to shim. Sight it in, blah blah blah, send him on his way, now it's 1 pm! Have not fired a shot yet! Set up get ready, here comes Momma! Momma needs something, now it's 2 pm, finally start some work with the 500 MDM, I don't believe the pressures are as low as they show. I test a lot of things, change wires, change this that the other! Finally by 5 pm I decide to strip the strain gage off, that's $25 a pop too! Clean it up, remeasure everything, put a new strain gage on, now it's nearly 7 pm here! I got crap done today! Zero, nothing, notta damn thing! One of those days!

Oh well, if I am still living I will go to it again tomorrow! Whewww!!

OK, first things first, seems Sam is on his way to give the 750 gr BBW #13 a workout. But that's not all, Our very own "465 HH" is also on his way this week and he has a pocket full of 500 gr CEB BBW #13s, two bands, the ones we tested in the doubles. 465 has agreed to give them a workout too on his trip. Thanks 465! And we are all awaiting your report when you return, good or bad, it is what it is! Lot's of luck and good shooting my friend, and do be careful and safe!

Buffalo

Yeah, I can do that, 570 .510 at 2350 or so. Last time I just dumped a whole case full of RL 15 in it and mashed it in there, should work this time too I reckon!

Might be a few days before I can get to it. I have a horrible backlog of stuff I am way behind. This B&M crap is turning into a job, and I get no pay!

Oh, but the 500 MDM is doing well, very well, in fact I think too well! I don't believe I am running a 500 gr bullet at 2420 fps at 45000 PSI and less! I don't buy that, but the cases look good, I am trying that new strain gage!

Peter

Let's see, I think I have your 12 bores that are being done, I have a 1000 of the 4 Band BBW #13s being done, another 1000 in copper, .500s, small bore, and then later this week all the HPs that go with these. That's gonna be a lot of bullets!

Ohhhh, they are going to be so NICE--I might just pour all of them in the floor, in one big pile all together. Get completely but naked and jump in them and roll around!!!!

I will make sure to hook up the camera on a remote and get some photos. I wonder if my .500s will get stuck up the rear? NO MAN, not that, I am talking about your 12 Bore Hollow Base Bullets, if the .500s will get stuck up the rear of the 12 Bores if you pour them out in a pile! Good God, the things you guys come up with! Here I am trying to talk about bullets and you guys off on a tangent!





M

Michael. . . . . your meds. . . . . . take the meds. . . . . . . OK, breath. . . . . . slow down. . . . . you'll be fine. . . . . . but for the love of GOD; keep the clothes on!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Michael. . . . . your meds. . . . . . take the meds. . . . . . . OK, breath. . . . . . slow down. . . . . you'll be fine. . . . . . but for the love of GOD; keep the clothes on!

I don't know Big D, it ain't every day a fellow gets 2000-2500 brand new shiny bullets to throw in the floor and get naked with!!! Sure would hate to miss an opportunity like that!


Well.......that thought aside, I managed to talk to CEB yesterday, made the band change, all in agreement on moving up the 2 center bands to the top. In fact I caught them right before running the 425 CEB BBW #13s in copper for the lever guns, and so they will come in 4 bands, 3 at the top, one at the bottom. This really was a no brainer, should have been that way from the start, sometimes we get too busy to think things proper here. New HPs will be in the works end of the week.

Our boy Sam left us with some very very interesting bullets, a few hollow points, and some longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg, .500 brass BBW #13s, looking at it on my desk it looks about a foot long to me? We coming for you Corbin!


Michael

By the way - to all of you - I am considering building a 500 AR rifle.
Will be light (as light as possible) - max 7-8 Ibs and with a 20" barrel.
Question is - what twistrate would you suggest/recommend?
1-10" or 1-12"???????

Buffalo

Either in my opinion. I think you will be fine with either twist. All my .500s are 1:12, which has worked well for terminals, accuracy not an issue. I am getting 1:10s for all the new 475 B&Ms.

I have 1:14s on the 416 B&M, fine for 350-370, but I wish I had put 1:12s on them, or even 1:10s. They would be much better with 400s. In fact, the 416s with 400s is not good at all with 1:14.

458s are ok at 1:14, wish mine were 1:12.

.510--1:12 or 1:10, can't really go wrong either way.

M

Thanks buddy..
Think I will go for a 1-10 then..


Ulrik

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
By the way - to all of you - I am considering building a 500 AR rifle.
Will be light (as light as possible) - max 7-8 Ibs and with a 20" barrel.
Question is - what twistrate would you suggest/recommend?
1-10" or 1-12"???????

500 AR uses .510 caliber bullets...definately go with 1:10" twist rate, there's no downside to the faster twist rate and plenty of upside.

I might mention the only reason for the 1:12" twist rate in the .500 caliber is its the fastest twist rate available that is not a one-off special order.

Before Sam left he put a small package in the mail for us to work on in his absence!

I think you know what this is!

After the long day of testing the barrel strain on the 470 Doubles, Sam and I kicked around this idea on some HPs.

Pop Quiz--what about these .510 caliber Hollow Points? And no smart ass remarks from the "Peanut Gallery".

Wow, is brass so much lighter that it takes 60% more length to go just 15% more in weight beyond the 530 grains?

Tanzan

Nahhh, Sam has a great big, deep, hollow base in that bad boy!

As they say here in SC, he has it, "hogged out".




Copper comes in about 5% heavier.

M

Good God Michael - that picture is fodder for a slew of politically incorrect comments and jokes.
You're not a Mohel, by any chance, are you?

This thread is long overdure for some adult supervision!!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
This thread is long overdure for some adult supervision!!

Awwwwwww DAD!!!!!

Youre NO FUN AT ALL!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Good God Michael - that picture is fodder for a slew of politically incorrect comments and jokes.
You're not a Mohel, by any chance, are you?

HEY---No Mohel! No WAY!

HEH HEH!!!!! I knew it was coming! Paul! Shame! Agent J! Where you Been? Not you Too!

This is bullets..........





Pop Quiz---What does this bullet do? What is left over after terminals? YOu see, that's the key! What is left over!

Good Night
It's dark here!

M