Doc M,
Burnham & Morrill
Don't open that can of B&M whoop-ass too soon!
Don't forget you have some resorbable sutures buried underneath, I guess, some may have tied off bleeders, others may be holding fascial planes or muscles together. Electrocautery may have stopped some bleeding.
All that needs time to heal and resorb.
Stir it up too soon and it could get ugly, even if you think you are back to pretty on the outside.

Do not go all out for 6 weeks. Maybe you can start some light stuff with sissy bags after two weeks but only if it is painless and feels "right."
Go slow and feel it out.

Mike Brady explained what you have seen in your tests with the North Fork soft points.
He did a lot of testing too.
He used the bookbinder-glue-type blocks you can get from the Corbin bullet swaging company.

The North Fork softs open up to maximal diameter somewhere around 2200 fps (2100 to 2300???)
but after that the bonded lead and copper nose folds back to smaller frontal area,
draping itself behind over the solid copper base,
penetration increases after you pass that maximum expansion with increased velocity,
despite increased resistance of medium being penetrated at higher velocities, the drag decreases enough to allow greater penetration after the initial upset, velocity is decreasing and frontal diameter is smaller than max in the terminal phase of the terminal ballistics, etc.

I gotta get some.
I might have to convert an M70 Winchester of 30-06 length magazine to a 490 B&M with 2.5" Lapua case if I ever get the 49-10 finished.
Then I can store my loaded ammo in empty raisin bread cans too!

Phats

quote:

So in the Non Con's is Brass the best for all game or is there a place where pure Copper is better?

Mighty fine question, of which I really have no definitive answer for you! I think we are going to learn a lot when we go to the field this season. I can tell you what I think, and what I like right now about what I see with the brass NonCons. Up front, that shearing of blades, seems to inflict a great deal of trauma to target. While the blades are not heavy enough to propel themselves, they slice their way through medium and tissue. On broadside deer Sam has had complete pass through, exits of the blades themselves! That was unexpected, and tells me that on animals such as buffalo, these blades will tear through vital organ tissue as separate tiny projectiles, this obviously has to have an effect. All the while the remaining solid continues to penetrate, far beyond even the very best premium conventional bullet. Like a broken beer bottle tearing, ripping, pushing it's way through tissue that would not have been touched by a conventional bullet. I ask myself, where is the downside of this? I can find no downside to any of this.

The brass noncons like velocity, more velocity, more everything else. At first I was thinking these are the "Miracle Bullets" for EVERYTHING. But I am not so sure, I think it depends on the cartridge you are using, and the velocity it is able to churn up. Right now I am fairly convinced, until proven otherwise, that a cartridge that is able to give impact velocity of 2000 fps or better, the NonCon is going to be king of the hill. As this impact velocity bleeds off, even with shear effect, I am not so sure? As we have mentioned above about one of my cartridges, 50 B&M Alaskan for the lever guns. I think the new North Fork 450 gr Bonded bullet is going to be a hammer for this rifle/cartridge combo. Would a lighter 350 gr brass NonCon transfer as much trauma? More? Less? I can get a 350 well over 2100 fps or more and I believe I can take the 450 North Fork up to 2000 fps at the muzzle. At these lower velocities, I can't say right now? Penetration of the two will be very close I think, trauma inflicted?

Copper is a more malleable than brass of course. While we have learned how to make the copper shear like the brass at lower velocity, blades or petals like on the Barnes X bullets have been annealed and are even more malleable than the bullets obtained from Lehigh or CEB. It has become difficult to get a shear effect on the barnes X allowing them to become more of a conventional bullet, than a noncon. An excellent bullet, that I have used in the field with great success, no doubt. Penetration of a Barnes X will be less than a brass Noncon that shears. Copper CEB and Lehigh needs velocity to shear, unless the cavity is shallow like the .474s and .500s I had done with CEB, cavity depth of .350. When I was shooting buffalo in Australia I was using a 470 gr copper HP from Lehigh at muzzle velocity of 2425 fps. On most all shots taken under 50 yds I got a shear of the blades. This is around a .500 deep cavity, 6 blades. Shear is different on these, as the blades remain within the wound channel or close. Totally devastating, and you can readily see trauma inflicted at the shot. My shooting partner allowed some animals to get some further away than 50 yds, some bullets were recovered, and it was simply a 6 bladed conventional at that point, no shear as velocity at impact had dropped off. He was also shooting this bullet in his 50 B&M at a reduced velocity of 2200 fps, and impacts at 2100 or less and rarely getting any shear effect. While not as much trauma inflicted, buffalo were still hit hard with this, penetration more than adequate. But when that shear effect occurred, there was a very noticeable difference in impact trauma. ????

Shear away from center or shear remaining in wound cavity? Both appear to have a devastating effect. One thing I am going to look at, in particular on thin skinned game, is the effect of this .800 deep cavity I had done on some of the .500 caliber bullets, remember the "Lion Bullet" that I called it? Shear effect uneven, large chunks and slivers of brass remaining close to wound channel, penetration still very good. As opposed to the 460 CEB .500 that shears away from center. I will be looking at this effect and it's trauma inflicted at impact. I still believe that this type bullet will inflict serious trauma at impact, and turn thin skinned critters inside out! We will see how it reacts with wildebeast and zebra first. Large thin skinned, tough critters.

We have much to do, and we will be getting some really excellent reports in, even before I leave on my missions. I think Mike is getting close to leaving in a couple of weeks, when he returns I think we will get some excellent reports on how the bullets worked for him. My hunting partner is leaving end of this month for Namibia, he is busting 12 or so thin skinned game, using nothing but the 325 CEB BBW#13 Brass NonCon in his 416 B&M. Now if he can hit anything other than gut shots and ass shots, I have instructed him on what to look for, and to look at animal reactions as well. I figure on about 1/3 of his animals we might get a report on, the rest will be missed, shot in the guts, or in the ass! But if we get lucky, maybe 3-4 animals he might hit proper. ?????

I can't recall who else might be headed to the field early right now. But hopefully everyone that goes to the field with any of the bullets we are working with, or ones we are not working with, please please please, report it here, that's what this is for and the reason for this threads very existence. Don't be shy, this is not a place for arguing or internet BS, this is the real deal! You won't be shunned here! Too many really super guys following this, even a few that don't always agree with me, and that is welcome, this is how we learn! I know that MANY of you lurk and look, and NEVER post. That is ok, but if you have something to share, terminal performance, please do so.

M

RIP

Wow, well since I can shoot, might as well type! B&M in a can , yeah I have been getting a kick so to speak out of that myself!

No, I am going to stick to Doc RIp And Doc CCMDOc orders! Or close anyway. Outside stitches gone, sorta "Frankenstein" looking sort of chap I am! Yes, you are correct as usual, there are resorbable sutures underneath, I asked! So I am going to take it slow, and easy, although it is about to drive me insane, as I have so much to get accomplished. It is in a position that shooting will put stress on it. I can feel it just holding and pulling a rifle in tight. I did not really expect this before hand, hell I figured I would be back up and running normal in a few days! Oh well.......... But thanks, and I will adhere to the excellent advice from both you guys. Even if I don't like it--


Yes, sometimes, (actually often) I tend to let things slip, I recall something about the North Forks now that you mention it, and yes, you are 100% spot on with that assessment.

As soon as I can take delivery of the new 450 North Forks I have to get some to Layne Simpson, and I will get some to you as well!

.500 is not a bad place to be these days for big bore rifles. Easy, between North Fork and CEB, Lehigh, and some normal conventionals run at lower velocity, there are LOT"S of bullets to work with in a big bore rifle, and one can do anything on the planet with them! Not too bad!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
Burnham & Morrill
Don't open that can of B&M whoop-ass too soon!
Don't forget you have some resorbable sutures buried underneath, I guess, some may have tied off bleeders, others may be holding fascial planes or muscles together. Electrocautery may have stopped some bleeding.
All that needs time to heal and resorb.
Stir it up too soon and it could get ugly, even if you think you are back to pretty on the outside.

Do not go all out for 6 weeks. Maybe you can start some light stuff with sissy bags after two weeks but only if it is painless and feels "right."
Go slow and feel it out.

Just taking a look here - dealing with my own friggin BS unexpected life curveball that changes everything...

BUT
RIP
I think you and I need to visit Michael458 and a) duct tape him to a chair; b) suture his eyelids to his eyebrows so he can not close them; c) find a VHS player at the Salvation Army and d) play Barney (purple dinosaur) on continuous loop

UNTIL

he agrees to follow the doctor's orders

Michael, look at it this way

You just JB Welded your favorite barelled action in your favorite BM cartridge to your favorite stick of wood. Each piece is unique - irreplaceable. You can get new version but never come close to everything you wanted as these pieces do.

You know that you should wait until the JB has fully cured BUT you get itchy and say "it's good enough".

Not only does it not hold with the first shot but it damages every piece so that fixing it will never make it whole and never be remotely satisfactory. If only you had waited until it cured ...

I see this regularly - re-injury is far worse and far harder to repair/heal/recover.

Be patient!

Hey Doc

Seems we get these "unexpected Curveballs" around here too! Makes hell on plans already in place!

Well, don't worry about bringing duct tape! I have about 50 rolls of that heavy duty black duct tape! Two cases of it! That ought to do awhile! I thought torture was banned however? Barney? Anything but that please--I submit!

I have been following doctors orders! I only threaten once and awhile!

Excellent analogy! Point taken!

Patient? Working on it! Trying. But I do understand and will continue to do the best I can! And yes both of you are 100% spot on correct!

Still don't like it very much however!

But, as for my rifles and being ready to leave June 3 for RSA and Zim, I am ahead of the curve. Have several bullets ready to go, want to test a few more POIs and add some bullets. Fine tune things, which won't take long and I am set to jet.

I will for sure WAIT on the 600 OK test work until a full 4-6 weeks, more likely 6. In the meantime I can get some loads ready, lay out a proper test schedule, and get this work done before I leave and get the rifle and other things back to you before I depart.

After another week of off time, I will see how we look for some low velocity, easy recoil, light bullets, the new 458 Noncons from CEB. Trying for around 1500-1600 fps shear on those. So I think with all precautions that will be ok. After 1 shot I will know, and if not good, will stop. But that should be pretty easy I think. No heavy stuff! Use a bag of shot or something else to absorb it. But we see what we see and I won't push it. Last thing I need is to do something stupid, mess with shooting my buffalo in June! So I won't do that. Does piss me off, such a simple little thing putting us out of shooting business! Anyway.................

We will "Endeavor to Persevere"---Wonderful Line!

Thanks too! Both of you fine Docs!

Michael

Michael

I am suppose to have new bullets coming in next week. 335 gr GCLFN. I am going to try Trailboss powder and am hoping for 1300-1400 fps. Light load for driving around the ranch but will still kill a deer or coyote.

HEHEHE if I knew some one that needed to shoot something light I might get them to chronograph some.

TAKE CARE AND LISTEN TO THE DOCS I have been laid up before also and like they say-reinjuries nare worse than the first goround.

SSR

Cross

I always threaten to start shooting, more, lighter loads for all the B&Ms, just horse around fun shooting. Seems I hardly ever really get to that Point! It will be interesting to see what you come up with on that. I have some 375 Beartooth cast .416s I have had for several years. I used to use some amount of IMR 4198 in 416 Remington, running at 1850 fps, it was a very nice load, very accurate as well. I have yet to put one in the 416 B&M. But I think 1400-1500 fps would be much more fun to shoot too.

Yes, our AR Docs have convinced me I should behave myself. I would listen to them more so than my docs here to be honest, as both RIP and CCMDoc understand and know what we do, far better than most. SO I am listening! Thanks to all for the concern, not a big deal, just aggravation!

Well, gives me time to concentrate on non shooting activities, getting loads ready, test plans laid out, data entered, packing for the trip, things like that. Of course, I do have regular normal work activities going on as well! So plenty to keep me busy.

Michael

We had a "surprise" visit yesterday from one of our very own! Look out guys, Boomy is on the loose on the eastern side of the continent! Yes, Our very own Boomstick dropped in for a visit yesterday afternoon!

Well, it was not quite a total surprise as I knew a day or so ahead of time he was lurking in the region! LOL.... Since he was within a few hours he made a plan to get by for a all too short of a visit. It was too short a visit to get any shooting in, or I would have sure used Boomy to get some of our work done, and he would have been more than a willing guinea pig for sure! But our time was limited, so we had a great visit, and Boomy was in full character, and full of IDEAS as always! I probably should have been taking notes to make sure I do not forget anything, but somehow I am sure that Boomy will not allow me to forget nothing! LOL.......

I have to give Boomy a lot of credit, he has been an excellent idea man, full of great detail and study in many cases. In my case in particular, while I have had a few things on the slates to do at some point, I give Boomy the credit for pushing things. For example, the 458 B&M Super Short. This was on the books to be done at some time, but I was lagging, Boomy pushed it, and it has turned out to be a really "super" neat little cartridge, and combined with some of our new bullets, it has turned out to be a very capable little rifle/cartridge combination, thank you Boomy! Boomy is also responsible for many other things, pushing the 410 B&M, which I had a reamer done, Chopper is still looking for a left hand rifle, but anyone that would want a 410 B&M can get one now. He has also contributed greatly to this thread concerning some of the bullet designs and giving us avenues in which many of the bullets could be improved as well.

We had a wonderful visit, that went well past my normal bedtime by several hours. And there was not one second of it that was not laced with great discussion, and new ideas! Hell we even looked at and formed some cases into new cartridges! I have a feeling that Boomy will make a return visit soon and have a better laid plan where I can put him to work for a few days on the range! And no doubt, he will have some new ideas by that time, and will still be hounding me on some other things to get accomplished! Which is just dandy with me!

Safe travels Boomy and we enjoyed greatly your visit, although way too short!

Michael

Michael you are so kind and a gracious host. Was such a treat to meet you Michael and family. Michaels passion for all things guns, bullets and hunting is amazing and inspiring. Loved listening to all your hunting stories and seeing the critter museum. Was pretty sweet to visit the Mad Scientists laboratory and see where all the magic happens. Yes we need a longer visit so I can help you with those over 50's and make use of that bar as well Glad to see you are healing ok but keep getting better. Those animals arn't going to kill themselves you know excited for your soon to be next Safari!

Michael,

Look out, when Boomy starts talking "over 50 cal" we mortals start thinking about putting wheels on it.



SSR

Is that something like an ATV cannon?
Does anyone make a cannon mount for ATV's? Add a two bore to an ATV and that would make a fun hog hunt.

Shit now you have ME thinkin



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is that something like an ATV cannon?
Does anyone make a cannon mount for ATV's? Add a two bore to an ATV and that would make a fun hog hunt.

Boomy,

You remind me of Hap Sharp, the other half of the Jim Hall/ Hap Sharp team that created and raced the Chaparral Race cars. Jim said of him, "Hap has a thousand ideas a minute of which only one is worth while , but that one IS REALLY WORTH WHILE! Most people don't ever have a single idea that is worth while."

I suppose that will just encourage you, and if there's anyone who doesn't need encouragement, it's you.

Still, life would be a lot less if you weren't around pumping out the thousands.

Would this ATV mount be crew served??





SSR

Doc M,
You studied the hell out of twist rates with solids,but did you check out your Non Cons?
I'm thinking that the Petals left in the wound chanal may not have had the enertia to be thrown out.
Of course I could also have a head stuffed with Camel shit and I wouldn't notice.

CrossL

No worries, I will keep Boomy under proper control! You see, he is still very much a youngster, big and strong and has not thought about us "Elders" as much. So I have to keep reminding him, we have to keep the rifles at nice lite, carry all day long, short, and handy. LOL........


IBT--No for sure, boomy needs no encouragement! That sharp mind of his is working overtime 24/7, no worries!


Phats, yep, camel shit coming out the ears buddy! That's funny! LOL......

That is a thought, no doubt. I think twist (could be wrong) would have little to do with the petals---if I was testing much with very slow twist rates then I might consider, but my .500s are 1:12, all 458s 416s are 1:14, new 475s are 1:10, so no really slower twists that I work with, like 1;20 or anything. Not only that, but Mike tested the .474 noncons, got excellent shear, even at low velocity with his 470 Nitros, at 1:18 I think? Not a bad idea, but I think not.

Hey, any you guys see that thread on mediums about twist rates and penetration? I almost added my 2 cents, but they are talking more about small bores and unrelated things. Seems none of those guys have looked at the work we did, and proved, with twist rates and solid penetration. Rat shooters I reckon! Of course, not kicking rat shooters, lord knows I love to shoot those little prairie rat things, big fun, lot's of shooting!

quote:

head stuffed with Camel shit and I wouldn't notice.

Michael

Weld a cannon turret to the roll cage.
Could be a fun project
They made cannons for small boats so why not an ATV? A little swivel gun two bore!

Saw an episode of "Sons of Guns" where they mounted a Saiga 12 onto an ATV so it could be shot with one hand in any direction.
So Ya, you can do that.

Boomy,

Are you thinking bow chaser or in broadsides?



SSR

A little video just for fun :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvcHuV4LEFs

This is a recreationnal used of a Darne "Canardière", a duck "shotgun" from the 20's.
This is a 45mm gun, using 205 0.31 caliber round balls for shooting against steel.

It is all in french, but I hope you will enjoy it.

No duck has been hurt during this film

Now That's a GUN
Nicest breech loading Punt gun I've ever seen.

Cheers John

Note to self: Do not storm this guys castle!!!

Been re reading Elmer Keith's Hell, I was there for the upteenth time. I am inspired by his closing words which is a poem by E A Brennistool:

"If with pleasure you are viewing any work a man is doing
If you like it or love him, tell him now. Don't withhold your approbations until the parson makes oration.
As he lies with snowy lilies O'er his brow. For no matter how you shout it, he really won't care about it,
He won't know how many tear drops you have shed
If you think some praise is due him, now's the time to pass it to him,
For he cannot read his tombstone when he's dead."


Thanks to the AR community and espically to Saeed, Michael458 and RIP.

quote:

No duck has been hurt during this film

Apparently, no balloons were either ...

Does it come with choke tubes?

And boomy will prob want a sabot round.



SSR

I wonder how many government agencies we'd have to go through to make something like that in the US?

New Bullets today--and I quote

416 caliber 335 LFNGC .417"

WARNING:

Lead is known to cause Cancer and reproductive defects in the state of California. {Whats up with the reproductive stuff, yall getting California kinky???? }

Wash hands before eating, drinking or smoking.

Question==Why is lead so bad in California and not anywhere else? What are you up to out there Boomy?

And be sure and wash your hands before lighting a cig or you might get cancer.



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
New Bullets today--and I quote

416 caliber 335 LFNGC .417"

WARNING:

Lead is known to cause Cancer and reproductive defects in the state of California. Wash hands before eating, drinking or smoking.

Question==Why is lead so bad in California and not anywhere else? What are you up to out there Boomy?

And be sure and wash your hands before lighting a cig or you might get cancer.



SSR

It's bad everywhere and always has been. This is a warning label as required by Prop 65. If Y'all Texans don't think lead is bad news just ask them Moonshiners about Jake Leg.

I never could resist pokin a snake---





SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
I never could resist pokin a snake---





SSR

Especially an 18 foot Copperhead with a bad attitude ...

Here in California there is no common sense or education beyond MTV Only feel good humanistic relativism so the govt has to put warning labels on everything to protect the below average IQ and morality vacant lefty voters. If they did not do this they would fear losing voting power through Darwinism.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
I never could resist pokin a snake---





SSR

Especially an 18 foot Copperhead with a bad attitude ...

18 ft Copperhead? Here in texas we dont bother babies where the MOM?



SSR

quote:

losing voting power through Darwinism

I had posted this in the political forum but didn't get any feedback, so I'll put it here.

Can any of you in California confirm this story? The state is going to *require* the teaching of gay history and gay rights in schools.

quote:

Children would take lessons on issues affecting gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people, with schools granted discretion about what age to start the lessons.
The law was passed by the state's senate and is likely to pass the assembly easily, which is also controlled by the Democrats, before being signed by Governor Jerry Brown.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/edu...ghts-in-schools.html

PC agenda is the top priority for the socialism training camps.
Big Bang Darwin forbid they learn about the second amendment or bullet terminal performance.
Hijack off

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
I had posted this in the political forum but didn't get any feedback, so I'll put it here.

Can any of you in California confirm this story? The state is going to *require* the teaching of gay history and gay rights in schools.

quote:

Children would take lessons on issues affecting gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people, with schools granted discretion about what age to start the lessons.
The law was passed by the state's senate and is likely to pass the assembly easily, which is also controlled by the Democrats, before being signed by Governor Jerry Brown.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/edu...ghts-in-schools.html

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
I had posted this in the political forum but didn't get any feedback, so I'll put it here.

Can any of you in California confirm this story? The state is going to *require* the teaching of gay history and gay rights in schools.

quote:

Children would take lessons on issues affecting gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people, with schools granted discretion about what age to start the lessons.
The law was passed by the state's senate and is likely to pass the assembly easily, which is also controlled by the Democrats, before being signed by Governor Jerry Brown.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/edu...ghts-in-schools.html

Yep. It's actually happening. I don't know anyone who has kids in public school here. Waaaaaay too ghetto regardless of the curriculum.

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

I had posted this in the political forum but didn't get any feedback, so I'll put it her

Why the hell would you put this in the terminal bullet performance thread?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

I had posted this in the political forum but didn't get any feedback, so I'll put it her

Why the hell would you put this in the terminal bullet performance thread?

Beg your pardon.

Thanks, Mac and boom. It was apropos of nothing. Just knew you two were from Cali and was just interested to know.

Carry on, then!

Michael,
Wondered if you (or anyone) had ever seen a Win. M70 like this; amazingly classic lion inlaid in gold on the floorplate, engraved receiver...caliber .458 Win Mag.





















Oh, and the stock is kinda pretty too...

SB

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

I had posted this in the political forum but didn't get any feedback, so I'll put it her

Why the hell would you put this in the terminal bullet performance thread?

I started a mild thread hijack by posting the lead warning from a box of Cast Bullets. SOG wasnt far out of that because of the response from Cali about that moronic warning.

Rather rude way to jump SOG and he didnt start the highjack.

SSR

That is one sweet piece of Gun Porn right there.