PWS

Best I can do for you is this. 320 9.3 Woodleigh has penetrated extremely deep, about as good as I have had here. Several are getting close to that depth however.

I have two boxes, end to end, 65 inches in each box. Nothing has penetrated both boxes. 1 box is penetrated on a regular basis by 500 gr 458s, and the 500 caliber rifles. On occasion some 416s have penetrated 1 box.

Little slow this morning, define PFG?

Basic correlation back to animal tissue, Rule of Thumb; Expanding bullets from 80-100% more penetration in animal tissue than the test medium. Solid bullets 35% more in animal tissue than in the test medium. Rule of Thumb, not absolute as there are many things that can happen in the field.

I normally think in terms of "buffalo". Some years ago I needed a benchmark to go by, something I knew 100% would work on buffalo as an expanding bullet. I chose 450 and 500 gr Swift A Frames as the benchmark to go by. Anything that would penetrate the test medium close to these would work great for buffalo. Now I think in terms of that still, but have learned that 20 inches of penetration in the test medium will give good penetration on buffalo for expanding bullets. 18 inches getting a little low, above 20 inches good to go.

Solids, I normally think in terms of elephant, buffalo, and hippo. Again, the worst bullets of the bunch are round nose solids and they have killed a lot of elephant and buffalo, about the best they do is around 25-30 inches STRAIGHT. So if we have good flat nose solids that can make it to 45-50 inches or more, they would most certainly qualify as a proper bullet for that work. Which will bring me at some point to discuss a matter in depth that has been on my mind concerning this. But that is a story for later.

This help any?

500 N

If we have a solid that penetrates 40 inches in the test medium, that would equate to around 54 inches in animal tissue, as a Rule of Thumb. 4.5 ft basically.

Michael

Michael458,

Thanks for the answer, it nails my question on the head and helps a lot when looking at penetration numbers! Your test boxes are easy to replicate and with the above rules of thumb, we can all do a little testing if so desired.

Thanks for doing so much work and freely posting the results. That's a lot of hands-on data and we're all indebted to your efforts!

Mike

P.S. PFG = pretty, f-n, good

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
Michael458,

Thanks for the answer, it nails my question on the head and helps a lot when looking at penetration numbers! Your test boxes are easy to replicate and with the above rules of thumb, we can all do a little testing if so desired.

Thanks for doing so much work and freely posting the results. That's a lot of hands-on data and we're all indebted to your efforts!

Mike

P.S. PFG = pretty, f-n, good

OK---



Mike

Most welcome, glad it helps. Absolutely anyone can work with this and come up with the same results I do, minus an inch or two here and there. One thing is this, my medium is not just straight wet print, I also insert magazine and catalogs. Roughly 6 inches wet print and 1.5-2 inches of magazines throughout the box. I was surprised to learn when I made this move several years ago that the magazine/catalog in the mix made it a bit tougher and I was getting less penetration than with straight wet news print. Whatever percentage of magazines is in the mix is how much less penetration in percentage that you will get.

Thank You!


Michael

I had not tested the Barnes 300 gr X FN for 45/70 since probably about 2004 or so. Back then, using straight wet news print, as I recall it did fine. Dave mentioned the other day it shed petals, and of course as we know now that really is not a bad thing, at least in my mind, penetration increases by the remaining slug continuing to penetrate, where if the petals remain, penetration is less. Petals do damage to tissue, and trauma is inflicted as the petals shear, copper shears off within the wound channel and brass shears and moves away from wound channel. Couple of different concepts involved with this.

Anyway, it lead to my curious nature to wanting to retest the bullets to see. My stock is old, probably at least about when the bullets came out and I don't remember when that was. Seems I remember having some on a hunt once, never used them, but that would have been at least 2004 or before?

Regardless, today one shed all it's petals and the other only lost one petal. Penetration was very good with both, and of course the one that shed petals had a little deeper penetration, as it should have. Trauma inflicted to the test medium was good. Honestly I do not consider the petals shedding a failure, in fact I think it's a plus!





M

There is one thing I would like very much to add to our discussions about bullets. Lord knows we have done some bullet tests. Now with each one tested I myself consider the use of said tested bullet, how can I use this bullet to my benefit in the field, or to make my rifle and cartridge combination more versatile?

What I would like to hear from everyone when we test a bullet is this;

How would you utilize this bullet and would it do anything for you, or your rifle/cartridge to widen your choices and add versatility to you?

Of course I have my own ideas, but I really would like to see some discussion on this.



Michael

I gather the 300 458 X minus petals would act like an expanded 270 grain 375 bullet. At 2,700 fps out of the Lott I would guess 35" of penetration.

Boomy

I like the new pic under your name!

You bring up an excellent point. Tell you what I need to do. I need to put some of those brass 300 gr HPs I have in the Lott. I can get 2800 fps in the Lott with those, and we will find out how much penetration we get with them! They shed all petals at 2 inches in. I also need to run some of the 425s in the lott too.

M

From the picture of the 300 grain 458, it appears that it is an 'old' model, pre-TSX. I have been noticing less of a tendency to shed petals in the TSX series and I wonder if that particular characteristic might not have changed.

Michael, do you have any TSX of the .458 300 grain? It would be very satisfying to have the same basic load and impact velocity, in ordre to see how the TSX bullet fares.

Now, while I do not consider the shedding of petals to be a bullet failure, neither is it the purpose of the bullet. I would prefer seeing the bullet hold together. By the way, what was the resulting weight of the resulting flat nose hexagon in .458? I would actually have guessed lower than 270 grains, probably in the 240-250 grain range. In any case, if the TSX holds together, then I would recommend the TSX over the old 'X'. The fuller mushroom of the TSX will do more damage to the boiler room in the 10-20 inch penetration area of Mr. Nyati.

Another surprising item is that 2700fps is supposed to be the old limit where petal-shedding did not take place. Also, heavier calibre were supposed to be more resistant to shedding than the light calibre X bullets. There are several 'urban legends' that can be laid to rest, or at least re-phrased, on these tests. So maybe someone can send Michael some 300 grain TSX in 458?

Tanzan

Take note this is the flat nose HP 6 bladed version made for the 45/70. These are older and not TSX. Not sure if they are making TSX in this for the 45/70 or if it is still without bands? I have not bought any in years for this. The 458 B&M has taken place of nearly all .458 caliber guns.

I must edit. These are older X versions I am pretty sure, I don't think these are TSX. I have TSX on the shelves however.



I have an excellent attitude towards the Non Cons, including Barnes. If the petals hang on, fine, if they shed, fine, either way, superb performance and I see no down side either way.

I have TSX on the shelves, but thanks. It's a mainstay and will be excellent for the upcoming 458 Super Short. Also I have some of the new 300 gr blue tipped TSX delivered today, along with a new silver ballistic tip 300 gr 458. We will test next week both of these, and maybe I throw in some 300 TSX in the lott and 458 B&M for retest.

Michael

Tanzan

Let's not forget our Non Conventional bullet performance. Excellent trauma transfer and deep penetration!



Michael

Yep,
Good performance on the NonCon, either way, petals of the metals, on and off.
The shower of metal petals plus the deeper penetration of the "cylindroid" remnant = supernova deathstar!
I like those Six-petal Hexplosions!
Kind of reminds me of S&H .395/310gr VeloHex bullets.
And Megan Fox's saloon girl underwear was cute in that new Jonah Hex movie, eh?

quote:

Megan Fox

maybe ... if only ... hmmmm ... naaaah .... she probably likes younger guys ...

Michael:

I can send you some .458 300 grain TSX flatnose bullets to test if you want.

Macifej,

How many calibers besides the .395 do you manufacture the HX bullets in? And are they priced in line with your FN solids?

Priced similarly - .458" and smaller. Really no point in a larger expanding bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Megan Fox

maybe ... if only ... hmmmm ... naaaah .... she probably likes younger guys ...

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Megan Fox

maybe ... if only ... hmmmm ... naaaah .... she probably likes younger guys ...

I know what you mean, I know what you mean....

She`s not that bad at all

I have been up to my eyeballs this week and have not had much time to get everything done I wanted too, so far. But the week is not over. I did manage to give the North Fork CPS 325s and 350s a workout this week, but only now getting them posted. I am going to repost the other test to go with the new ones, starting with 45/70 and working to 458 Lott.

First up, 45/70. Forgive my photos, not as clear as they could be. Testing both 325 and 350 North Fork CPS was done with a Marlin Guide Gun. I was very impressed with the penetration of both. Even at the lower velocity penetration was very good, expansion was good, and trauma inflicted was typical of these type bullets, which is very good, especially for the velocity. I know of no other expanding bullet in 45/70 that can penetrate as deep as these, other than other Non Conventional expanding bullets. These do qualify in my mind as Non Conventional. An excellent choice for many different applications in 45/70 I think. In fact I will tell you right now, I wish I had this bullet way back in 2002 when I decided to shoot a cape buffalo with a Marlin Guide gun, I guarantee I would have had better results. The penetration is there, with both bullets, along with all the other benefits needed.








Michael

Next we can review the same 325 and 350 North Fork CPS in the 458 B&M at two velocities. Results again were very excellent! Penetration, expansion, trauma inflicted to the test medium, all superb at either velocity. I am thinking the 325 will be an excellent bullet in my little 458 B&M Super Short! Just excellent! Once Hornady gets my dies, I will be testing the 325 CPS again with the Super Short. I will also consider taking it on one of my Australian buffalo shoots in the near future and give it a go!









Michael

Last but not least, 325 & 350 North Fork CPS in the 458 Lott at it's velocities. Here we see we found the point that we can shear some of the expansion off. Penetration was deep, trauma inflicted was quite interesting, and expansive. There is no down side to more velocity with these bullets, regardless if the expansion starts to shear off, it makes no difference, in fact things are enhanced. The North Fork CPS bullets are very much a no downside bullet. Expansion, penetration, and trauma inflicted is superb, regardless of 45/70 velocities or much or a 1000 fps more! Congratulations North Fork---This is a big Winner and it really should optimize many cartridges. Also there are ZERO feeding issues in my Winchester M70s--they gobble these up without even a bump, so slick you are not even sure you picked up a round!!!! Take note other lesser rifle manufacturers!!!!!!






Michael

Micheal:

In the 45/70, Barnes 400 grain Buster bullets are better!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I can send you some .458 300 grain TSX flatnose bullets to test if you want.

Dave

I don't think that is needed at this time. Both you and I got the same results from old and new.

Now what is this Barnes Buster comment-Is Better! Shame! You know better! OK, how about this, stoke up the Marlin with a couple of Barnes Busters, behind a couple of 350 CPS? Combo that would work pretty good I would say!

M

Great! If my 6-pound-fast-twist .458 B&M torques out of my hands with the North Fork 450-grain trio of bullets,
it is good to know about those 325&350-grainers from North Fork!

Sam has been at it again! Man, we are going to have a 577 test of all time when he visits next!




Corbin is still hot on 6.5, this has to be the longest 6.5 I have ever seen! 166 grs and over 1.5 inches long!



Michael

Sam has been "screwing" with the bullets AGAIN!



"This is a Screwy Bullet"

Michael

6.5's rule!!! Bell did great work with a 6.5mm.

Will be interesting to see what Sam's bullet will do. My only concern is that it is too looooooooooong and will not be stable. He can always make shorter bullets

BR

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam has been at it again! Man, we are going to have a 577 test of all time when he visits next!




Corbin is still hot on 6.5, this has to be the longest 6.5 I have ever seen! 166 grs and over 1.5 inches long!



Michael

just did a miller stability factor on the 1.5" 6.5mm and it came below 1.0, which means that it won't even fly, let alone have terminal stability. Of course, you could fire one to see if flatnose somehow overrides gyroscopic instability.

Michael,

I knew I'd get you going with the helical groove bullet. Yes we should have a good 577 test soon.

Sam

Sam and RIP




This is a hoot, OK, is it for the 577 or what? You did not say?

I got to thinking about this

This thing just might "screw" itself into the target dead straight?

Sam, You "screwing" with me ain't ya?

Bet you wore the rest of your bastard file right on down to the nubs o this one, guess you are "screwed" now, without a bastard file to make more bullets?




Tanzan

Hell I am not even sure I can get this in the rifle, much less shoot it?


I will bet you this much, if it hits the test medium STRAIGHT on, not sideways, then it is going deep!



Double Rifle Lurkers


Minimum bearing surface bullet!

Michael

Michael,

Its a .500 and I made two. One is about 400 grains and the other is 450 grains. Nobody can say we aren't trying new ideas even if they are screwy.

Sam

Sam

Man, great, you know I love .500s! EXCELLENT! One never knows! I have those boat propeller bullets JD had done, moves fluid, and limited penetration just by the 3 cuts around the meplat! It takes very very little to change the entire behavior of a solid. Sometimes one cannot even see it. I remember taking one of the round nose solids and flattening the nose on the grinder. Damn, it looked pretty good, it looked close, it measured close. Didn't do any better than it's parent did, veered off course. Same bullet done on CNC--100% dead straight, should have used a good bastard file I suppose like you.

I would venture to say that no one on the planet has done as much as we are right here on AR with solids. And with you on our team now, we know no bounds!

Thanks Sam, you efforts are not only appreciated, but they are amazing! Still have not talked to Dan yet, however have communications, it has been an extremely rough week here, so I have a plan next week to start some dialog with him and get us moving in the right direction on the bullets. I think this is going to work out just fine just from having some email contact back and forth. Thanks to Corbin for finding him!

M

Michael,

Thanks for all you have done. I used to think the Woodleigh RN was the only solid to shoot and you inspired me to try new things even if they don't work. Its always fun to learn new things and your testing has really opened my eyes. Yeah I'm screwing with you just because you are the mad scientistand I know you have probably already done or thought of what I'm doing. Hey I'm having fun and we'll see what works the best. I what to see that perfect solid someday. I want to know when I shoot a solid its going where it was aimed.

Sam

Well it's been a long time coming, but we are getting close to learning what size meplat will do what! Thanks to My Pal Sam!

Many months ago 465 HH and I spoke about a test that would involve different size meplats to learn just exactly what would be able to stabilize and what would not. Since then, we have traveled many miles, and learned a great deal in between. We have learned this about solids and meplat sizes.

First, we believe we know that when you get above 65% meplat of caliber, then the bullet is able to stabilize itself, pretty much regardless of twist rate. Below 65% meplat of caliber, then twist becomes a more important factor, and will increase straight line penetration, the faster the twist, the more straight line penetration obtained. We believe that once you start to move above 70% meplat for caliber that you will have dead straight penetration, regardless of twist, but at larger meplats, 75% of caliber, then you will see a reduction in overall total penetration, but you will also see more trauma inflicted to the target by the larger meplat.

What we do know for sure is that Nose Profile and the Percentage of Meplat of caliber are the most important factors of all with solids and straight line and deep penetration. Followed by twist rates, velocity, construction, and maybe SD comes in there somewhere bringing up the rear, but only if everything else is dead equal.

Now we finally have a chance to work towards 100% proof of this. Now 465HH will say nay, because of sample size, which is two in each case. Yes, 4 would be better, 10 would be better than that, and 20 would be even better, hell 100 each would be real good, but logistics does not allow for that, so we have two to work with, and unless I miss my guess, that will be enough!

In my mind, this will be the most important test I have ever conducted period. I will not pull this off in a day! This is going to take some time, as I am going to do everything within my power to make it as consistent as I possibly can. I suspect it will take a full week to do this proper and that's the only way I will have it. There is much work to be done on this one.

Here is the lineup. All are .500 caliber. Since this photo, Sam did make some round nose versions to start things off with. I will be testing in a 1:12 twist rate barrel. I am not sure of whether it will be one of the 50 B&Ms or the 500 MDM yet until I get my hands on the bullets. Sam says they are going in the post this week to me, so when in hand I will set the test up and possibly start on them next week. This will be one to pay very close attention to.




Thank You Sam!

Michael

Ok, I want to "lobby" for a change on the BIG BORE Forum. I think it was mentioned before by someone, but I am sick to damn death of looking at that "round nose FMJ" bullet at the top of our forum!

I want a Proper Flat Nose Solid there!


Who is With Me?

Michael

I like the 80% ones
Looking forward to the tests!

Once the meplat % king is crowned a test with the same powder charge but varying weights like .3, .275, .25, .225 and .2 SD would be revealing.

My vote is for the 600 OK with one of Robs flat nose bore riders.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ok, I want to "lobby" for a change on the BIG BORE Forum. I think it was mentioned before by someone, but I am sick to damn death of looking at that "round nose FMJ" bullet at the top of our forum!

I want a Proper Flat Nose Solid there!


Who is With Me?

Michael