quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

By golly, when Michael or I test something it is By God TESTED



SSR

And if it can survive both of us--Well that's as good as it gets!

LOL

M

Michael,

On the 45-70 bullet why don't you get Dan to put NE bands on it then you can seat it out in the B&Ms. I do want a solid for the 45-70. I have 2 Siace doubles in 45-70 and would love to take one to Africa. We need to test a #13 at about 1500 fps to see how deep it will go.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

On the 45-70 bullet why don't you get Dan to put NE bands on it then you can seat it out in the B&Ms. I do want a solid for the 45-70. I have 2 Siace doubles in 45-70 and would love to take one to Africa. We need to test a #13 at about 1500 fps to see how deep it will go.

Sam

Sam

I copy/paste your remarks above and sent to Dan.. Excellent idea--would be good to go either way and have good crimping grooves as well. Which we need on 45/70. I am going with a 325 gr to begin with so that will work well with the Super Short and velocity. I think that will do fine in 45/70 as well. Then a NonCon behind it!

M

Michael,
I love the rifle and it's a very handsome workhorse!
I hope it will shoot as well as your 458 is shooting with all the bullet combinations.
The cup points were high, but was windage o.k.?
I hope you don't have to use too big of a hammer during final testing!
Thank you again for your great rifles and you and Sam for even greater bullets to go with all our rifles.
Mike

Michael,

Tell Dan to do a 400 grain too!

Sam

450NE

I am now of the opinion that you should use the biggest hammmer available in testing. A broken safety here at home was a week down time with rifle at gunsmith. On the limpopo it would have screwed up a safari at minimum. And perhaps worse. everythiny you can do to keep Bwana Murphy at bay is good

SSR

Offered as an example of perfect nose design for a brass "soft point," my Non-Con used in 2008 on KY deer, and in 2010 for 6 animals in TZ up to zebra size:



It is .395-caliber/310-grain, brass hollow point designed by Macifej, Agent J, of S&H.
Not a single one has been recovered from game,
except for one brass petal I found with my teeth while eating the deer.
All were one-shot quick kills except for one baboon and one wart hog that were gut shot, and just took longer to die from that first shot.
I wish I had used that bullet on the second cape buffalo in TZ ... that might have resulted in a recovery if shot full length of the body, at +2700 fps MV.

Recovered from 5-gallon Homer buckets of water laid end to end, all petals came off at 1600 fps, 2100 fps, and 2600 fps, left to right:



In game, they are a devastating wounder, quit bleed-outs and maybe tumble and exit base forward after the explosion of petals on entry.
All seemed to track straight through the animal, on four heart shots and 2 gut shots in TZ.



IBT:
You were right.
The .395 has a .388 bore, .395 groove.
Design was for a .387/.395, between me and Harry McGowen.
I guess the "user barrels" are often .0005" to .001" over the minimum bore spec as designed.
I specified .387", and the barrels ended up .388".
Likewise the .490"/.500" Pac-Nor barrel I just got is .491"/.500".

I am happy as long as the groove diameter is no more than .0005" above the maximum spec for caliber/bullet/groove,
and both the McGowen .395 and Pac-Nor .500 barrels are good.

Now back to MIB proceedings.
Alas, I am putting up some fence for my 75 year-old mother today instead of shooting my .458 B&M.
Weather is nice here now. Maybe tomorrow ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
IBT,
You are off by .001". The bore diameter of the modern .395-cal is .387", groove is .395.

Sorry about that, I was working with the bore diameter as shown on the barrel maker's site.
IBT

Sadly, they have a typo there at McGowen Precision Rifle Barrels.
From the start with Harry McGowen and I deciding the specs, it was .395" groove and .387" bore, I repeat: .395/.387
A difference of .008" is routine in the medium bores such as .308"/.300" and .458"/.450" from thirty-cal to 45-cal.

I will have to call them up and discuss this.

I have purchased six .395-cal barrels. Max and friend have purchased three.
They are excellent quality barrels.
Even though the gunsmith that Doc M uses has a phobia of them, or some other hangup.
Highjack off.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Offered as an example of perfect nose design for a brass "soft point," my Non-Con used in 2008 on KY deer, and in 2010 for 6 animals in TZ up to zebra size:



It is .395-caliber/310-grain, brass hollow point designed by Macifej, Agent J, of S&H.
Not a single one has been recovered from game,
except for one brass petal I found with my teeth while eating the deer.
All were one-shot quick kills except for one baboon and one wart hog that were gut shot, and just took longer to die from that first shot.
I wish I had used that bullet on the second cape buffalo in TZ ... that might have resulted in a recovery if shot full length of the body, at +2700 fps MV.

Recovered from 5-gallon Homer buckets of water laid end to end, all petals came off at 1600 fps, 2100 fps, and 2600 fps, left to right:



In game, they are a devastating wounder, quit bleed-outs and maybe tumble and exit base forward after the explosion of petals on entry.
All seemed to track straight through the animal, on four heart shots and 2 gut shots in TZ.



IBT:
You were right.
The .395 has a .388 bore, .395 groove.
Design was for a .387/.395, between me and Harry McGowen.
I guess the "user barrels" are often .0005" to .001" over the minimum bore spec as designed.
I specified .387", and the barrels ended up .388".
Likewise the .490"/.500" Pac-Nor barrel I just got is .491"/.500".

I am happy as long as the groove diameter is no more than .0005" above the maximum spec for caliber/bullet/groove,
and both the McGowen .395 and Pac-Nor .500 barrels are good.

Now back to MIB proceedings.
Alas, I am putting up some fence for my 75 year-old mother today instead of shooting my .458 B&M.
Weather is nice here now. Maybe tomorrow ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
IBT,
You are off by .001". The bore diameter of the modern .395-cal is .387", groove is .395.

Sorry about that, I was working with the bore diameter as shown on the barrel maker's site.
IBT

Sadly, they have a typo there at McGowen Precision Rifle Barrels.
From the start with Harry McGowen and I deciding the specs, it was .395" groove and .387" bore, I repeat: .395/.387
A difference of .008" is routine in the medium bores such as .308"/.300" and .458"/.450" from thirty-cal to 45-cal.

I will have to call them up and discuss this.

I have purchased six .395-cal barrels. Max and friend have purchased three.
They are excellent quality barrels.
Even though the gunsmith that Doc M uses has a phobia of them, or some other hangup.
Highjack off.

Thanks for the follow up

IBT

quote:

Originally posted by 450NE:
Michael,

I hope it will shoot as well as your 458 is shooting with all the bullet combinations.
The cup points were high, but was windage o.k.?

Mike

Mike

If I had to venture a guess I would say your 458 will shoot near exact as the one I am shooting now. I find little difference between the guns.

The 350 CPS is in line windage, but the 325 is higher, and a bit left than the other bullets. Not really surprised at this, it's running 2580 fps, so it is not a surprise that it is a bit out of line with the others. I might play with slowing it down to 2450 or so and I bet it falls in with the others windage.


Sam

400 grs is a good move as well, will have some run.



RIP

I am learning here that all brass noncons are not created equal. With the shape of the #13 profile the the blades extend below the 13 degree angle, where the bullet is thicker of course. So what starts thin at the top, gets thicker at the base. This for sure effects shear on some of the calibers as we have seen. The new 458s, 409s, 375s, 9.3s are as thin as we can go, right to the edge of the radius on the #13. If I had to guess this will shear at lower velocity, but just how low I don't know--YET. I will. Actually, we all will. With shears down in the 1800 fps range, I personally with the bullets we currently have will be very satisfied with that--most all the bullets designed for the cartridges, and the mission intended will shear at reasonable velocities, reasonable ranges for DG.

45/70 designed must shear at a lower velocity--1400-1500 fps I would think. So will test and see what we have before we get into a 45/70 bullet. If it does, good to go, if not I am going to have the cavity deepened some and see what happens. Deeper cavity should promote shear. We will see!

M

Freudian slip:
"Quick bleed-outs" is what I meant to say, but "Quit bleed-outs" might mean the animal quits quicker for any given bullet placement with a NonCon than with a Conventional bullet.
NonCons penetrate better too.
What's not to like?

The only question about it that I "see" is whether the NonCon should be made of copper versus brass.

Copper is slightly heavier, softer, will hang onto petals at lower speeds, will blow them off at higher speeds.

No issues with barrel wear in my opinion with the brass/bronze/copper or even gilding metal.

Hornady claims their GMX (monometal gilding metal) won't lose petals, and that is one of their selling points, weight retention.
Barnes likes to claim high weight retention with their copper monometal X-bullets.

Saeed abhors brass for bullets.
Copper is the only way to go, IHNSHO.
Saeed's Walterhog is a NonCon by virtue of its high velocity, though it is a .375/300-grainer.
It often blows all petals off the nose at high impact speeds.
Sometimes it retains some or all petals on lower impact speeds. Perfect low velocity mushrooms may be recovered, if the animal is big enough to retain it, and no big bone mangles them.

Copper, gilding metal, brass ...

I understand brass can vary according to composition. So:

Is there a specific brass composition for bullets? I mean a specific ratio of copper/zinc for bullets that might not exist for other types of brass?

Of course with bronze it's copper/tin. How about bronze bullets?

I am no metallurgist.
Starting with Wikipedia, let's go from here:
************************************************
Brass
From Wikipedia

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1]

In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin.[2] Bronze does not necessarily contain tin, and a variety of alloys of copper, including alloys with arsenic, phosphorus, aluminum, manganese, and silicon, are commonly termed "bronze". The term is applied to a variety of brasses and the distinction is largely historical.[3]

Brass is a substitutional alloy. It is used for decoration for its bright gold-like appearance; for applications where low friction is required such as locks, gears, bearings, doorknobs, ammunition, and valves; for plumbing and electrical applications; and extensively in musical instruments such as horns and bells for its acoustic properties. It is also used in zippers. Because it is softer than most other metals in general use, brass is often used in situations where it is important that sparks not be struck, as in fittings and tools around explosive gases.[4]

Brass has a muted yellow color, which is somewhat similar to gold. It is relatively resistant to tarnishing, and is often used as decoration and for coins. In antiquity, polished brass was often used as a mirror.
.
.
.
Brass types

* Admiralty brass contains 30% zinc, and 1% tin which inhibits dezincification in many environments.
* Aich's alloy typically contains 60.66% copper, 36.58% zinc, 1.02% tin, and 1.74% iron. Designed for use in marine service owing to its corrosion resistance, hardness and toughness. A characteristic application is to the protection of ships' bottoms, but more modern methods of cathodic protection have rendered its use less common. Its appearance resembles that of gold.[20]
* Alpha brasses with less than 35% zinc, are malleable, can be worked cold, and are used in pressing, forging, or similar applications. They contain only one phase, with face-centered cubic crystal structure. Prince's metal or Prince Rupert's metal is a type of alpha brass containing 75% copper and 25% zinc. Due to its beautiful yellow color, it is used as an imitation of gold.[21] The alloy was named after Prince Rupert of the Rhine.
* Alpha-beta brass (Muntz metal), also called duplex brass, is 35–45% zinc and is suited for hot working. It contains both α and β' phase; the β'-phase is body-centered cubic and is harder and stronger than α. Alpha-beta brasses are usually worked hot.
* Aluminium brass contains aluminium, which improves its corrosion resistance. It is used for seawater service[22] and also in Euro coins (Nordic gold).
* Arsenical brass contains an addition of arsenic and frequently aluminium and is used for boiler fireboxes.
* Beta brasses, with 45–50% zinc content, can only be worked hot, and are harder, stronger, and suitable for casting.
* Cartridge brass is a 30% zinc brass with good cold working properties. Used for ammunition cases.
* Common brass, or rivet brass, is a 37% zinc brass, cheap and standard for cold working.
* DZR brass is dezincification resistant brass with a small percentage of arsenic.
* Gilding metal is the softest type of brass commonly available. An alloy of 95% copper and 5% zinc, gilding metal is typically used for ammunition "jackets", e.g. full metal jacket bullets.
* High brass contains 65% copper and 35% zinc, has a high tensile strength and is used for springs, screws, and rivets.
* Leaded brass is an alpha-beta brass with an addition of lead. It has excellent machinability.
* Lead-free brass as defined by California Assembly Bill AB 1953 contains "not more than 0.25 percent lead content".[17]
* Low brass is a copper-zinc alloy containing 20% zinc with a light golden color and excellent ductility; it is used for flexible metal hoses and metal bellows.
* Manganese brass is a brass most notably used in making golden dollar coins in the United States. It contains roughly 70% copper, 29% zinc, and 1.3% manganese.[23]
* Muntz metal is about 60% copper, 40% zinc and a trace of iron, used as a lining on boats.
* Nickel brass is composed of 70% copper, 24.5% zinc and 5.5% nickel used to make pound coins in the pound sterling currency.
* Naval brass, similar to admiralty brass, is 40% zinc and 1% tin.
* Nordic gold, used in 10, 20 and 50 cts euro coins, contains 89% copper, 5% aluminium, 5% zinc, and 1% tin.
* Red brass is both an American term for the copper-zinc-tin alloy known as gunmetal, and an alloy which is considered both a brass and a bronze. It typically contains 85% copper, 5% tin, 5% lead, and 5% zinc.[24] Red brass is also an alternative name for copper alloy C23000, which is composed of 14–16% zinc, 0.05% iron and lead, and the remainder copper.[25] It may also refer to ounce metal, another copper-zinc-tin alloy.
* Rich low brass (Tombac) is 15% zinc. It is often used in jewelry applications.
* Tonval brass (also called CW617N or CZ122 or OT58) is a copper-lead-zinc alloy. It is not recommended for seawater use, being susceptible to dezincification.[26][27]
* White brass contains more than 50% zinc and is too brittle for general use. The term may also refer to certain types of nickel silver alloys as well as Cu-Zn-Sn alloys with high proportions (typically 40%+) of tin and/or zinc, as well as predominantly zinc casting alloys with copper additive.
* Yellow brass is an American term for 33% zinc brass.
.
.
.
Lead content

To enhance the machinability of brass, lead is often added in concentrations of around 2%. Since lead has a lower melting point than the other constituents of the brass, it tends to migrate towards the grain boundaries in the form of globules as it cools from casting. The pattern the globules form on the surface of the brass increases the available lead surface area which in turn affects the degree of leaching. In addition, cutting operations can smear the lead globules over the surface. These effects can lead to significant lead leaching from brasses of comparatively low lead content.[12]

Silicon is an alternative to lead; however, when silicon is used in a brass alloy, the scrap must never be mixed with leaded brass scrap because of contamination and safety problems.[13]

In October 1999 the California State Attorney General sued 13 key manufacturers and distributors over lead content. In laboratory tests, state researchers found the average brass key, new or old, exceeded the California Proposition 65 limits by an average factor of 19, assuming handling twice a day.[14] In April 2001 manufacturers agreed to reduce lead content to 1.5%, or face a requirement to warn consumers about lead content. Keys plated with other metals are not affected by the settlement, and may continue to use brass alloys with higher percentage of lead content.[15][16]

Also in California, lead-free materials must be used for "each component that comes into contact with the wetted surface of pipes and pipe fittings, plumbing fittings and fixtures." On January 1, 2010, the maximum amount of lead in "lead-free brass" in California was reduced from 4% to 0.25% lead. The common practice of using pipes for electrical grounding is discouraged, as it accelerates lead corrosion.[17][18]
.
.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys
************************************************

Other sources/links:

http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=4387#2

http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=4387#6

http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=4387#15


http://books.google.com/books?...compositions&f=false

Copper,
Gilding Metal,
Free Machining Brass (Leaded Alpha-Beta Brass) like S&H used for .395/310-grain VHX:

It's all good for softs, but the latter is best for FN solids, eh?

For softs, it might come down to fine-tuned length, weight, and velocity of bullet considerations for a specific application.

That gets complicated.

Specific gravities by first grab from the internet:

Copper: 8.92 g/cc

Gilding metal:
95/5: 8.85 g/cc
90/10: 8.80 g/cc
85/15: 8.75 g/cc

FM/Leaded Brass (Alloy 385): 8.47 g/cc

S&H Alloy: "CF BRASS 360 1/2 HARD, FREE CUT."

All free-machining brass is not created equally. Properties vary significantly. There is only one manufacturer of the alloy we use.

quote:

FM/Leaded Brass (Alloy 385???): 8.47 g/cc

360 and about 8.4 G/CC

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

360 and about 8.4 G/CC

"C360 H02 ROUND BAR
DENSITY 0.307 LBS/CUBIC INCH (8.498 g/cc)
NO SUBSTITUTES"

"COPPER: 60.00 TO 63.00%
LEAD: 2.5 TO 3.70%
IRON: 0.35% MAX
ZINC: REMAINDER"

Machines better and priced better than the others due to lower copper content.
Works for me as long as I don't bite any petals myself.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

360 and about 8.4 G/CC

"C360 H02 ROUND BAR
DENSITY 0.307 LBS/CUBIC INCH (8.498 g/cc)
NO SUBSTITUTES"

"COPPER: 60.00 TO 63.00%
LEAD: 2.5 TO 3.70%
IRON: 0.35% MAX
ZINC: REMAINDER"

Machines better and priced better than the others due to lower copper content.
Works for me as long as I don't bite any petals myself.

Dental work not included.

Michael & Sam,

You’re already thinning out the petals on the 420gr #13 HP which at the current HP depth will likely cut another 10grs of weight from the bullet – So why not ream a correct diameter HB into the current 450gr #13 FN Solid to a depth to match the weight of the larger diameter #13 HP. Then Sam can try these in his 45/70 double rifle to check how they’d regulate as well as what the penetration will be at the lower velocity. They won’t be 400grs but at 410grs that pretty close.

Anyway, just a thought.

Thanks.
I saw the Wiki article but only halfass read it at first. Sometimes it takes me a few "passes" before I digest an article.

Jim

While the HB does reduce weight, there is still the extra length of that bullet to deal with. In a double or single that can be seated out, in many cases not an issue. It's still a longer bullet--regualate? Who knows with these double thingys! In the marlins and the 1886s somewhat, still need that shorter nose to mouth anyway.

Unfortunately I am going to be out most of this week. I am not going to get much range time in at all this week!

Michael

I don't think the HB is the way to go in 45-70. Slow twist and long bullets. I'd rather see as short a bullet as possible with maybe the NE band spacing for a better choice of crimp locations. Solid needs to have a nose length that will feed in the lever guns when seated and crimped in the top groove. Got to have big hole in the non con so it will shear petals at low velocity. The 420 gr current bullet would work for the doubles and I might play with that one a little to see how it does with a bigger hole in the nose.

Sam and Jim and all concerned.

Just spent about an hour on the phone with Dan. I think we have it whipped for 45/70 and 458 Super Short. I want a 325 BBW#13 and matching NonCon, which will be around 300 grs for he 458 B&M Super Short. Well, I am not a selfish sort of chap, I am thinking of you guys with 45/70s, and in particular a bullet that will work well in the short Marlin actions. So we are going to do a .460 nose to mouth, measured from the bottom of the top band and done in the nitro express bands giving a wider space for crimping. This way you guys with 45/70s can use this bullet both in the Marlins seated deep, and then seated further out for doubles, singles and I can seat further out as well in the Super Short if I want to.

In addition to that there will be a 400 gr BBW#13 solid and matching noncon around 375 grs. RTG for 45/70 as well, with NE bands. So this covers the small end of .458 caliber pretty well I think, and gives everyone something to work with.

M

Michael and Sam + all concerned 45/70er folks,

I did wonder about the bullet length issue but figured in a DR or SB that it’d be no issue…Keep forgetting about those short action Marlin levers though. It appears Dan has the solution in the making and all well be well with the 45/70, as well as the 458 B&M SS in the very near future!

Jim

I have a large order of bullets coming in for all the Super Shorts--Including the new 475 Super Short. Also of course 458 and 50 Super Short. New bullets for the 475 B&M as well--which is of course .474 caliber--a 450 BBW#13 and matching 425 or so NonCon. New order of .510 caliber 570 Solids, 420/450 458s, new 9.3, 375, and 409s NonCons as well.

Should all start coming in next week I think.

Michael

Michael at this rate you're going to need an annex on the lab just to handle the bullets!

Jim

That's a good reason I had a big cleanup day on the range a couple weeks ago, cleared out some shelves and got some areas straightened out! LOL---ready for 1000s of new bullets from North Fork and CEB combined! I am also looking for the new North Fork .474s for the 475 B&M and 475 B&M Super Short--New FPS and CPS! Ya'll with .474s out there might be interested in NEW .474s that are on the way!

Catch you guys in a few days--have to be out until the end of the week!

No fighting while I am gone now!



Michael

Hope you've made room for my AHR-built, GMA actioned 600 Overkill to play with in that pristine range!

I'll get it off to you when you tell me you're man enough to lift it from its case.

quote:

No fighting while I am gone now!

No, we'll leave the fighting for the medium bore forum.

Take care!

quote:

Hope you've made room for my AHR-built, GMA actioned 600 Overkill to play with in that pristine range!

I'll get it off to you when you tell me you're man enough to lift it from its case.

I will be working hard this weekend to clear out an entire wall to put that thing on! Will be like a bazooka next to my tiny Winchesters I am afraid! HEH HEH...... As for lifting it and toting it around I will just fool Sam into coming down, being a gun bearer for me. LOL----Then let him do the shooting, I load--sneaking a few extra grains of powder in for him! LOL.......

Hacksaw is nice and sharp, will take no time to work that barrel down to about 17-18 inches for ya!

Will be excellent to take a look at the new .620 CEBs while it is here. It's a good thing I recently went and got us 1800 lbs or so of medium to work with, have a feeling this is one shot per box work!!!!!!!

Glenn

Have not been following that issue on mediums, glancing once and awhile, but don't have a good jest of all that--and not sure I want to either. Think I will hang here on big bores. Ours are bigger! LOL.......

M

quote:

Have not been following that issue on mediums, glancing once and awhile, but don't have a good jest of all that--and not sure I want to either. Think I will hang here on big bores. Ours are bigger! LOL.......

True that!
I think it boils down to a self-esteem problem because medium bores just aren't as big. For the most part I think what happens in the Medium Bore forum should stay in the Medium Bore forum.

Hey I'll be glad to be the gun bearer and shooter of the 600 OK just take the muzzle brake off it if it has one. I can handle it.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Hey I'll be glad to be the gun bearer and shooter of the 600 OK just take the muzzle brake off it if it has one. I can handle it.

Oh my, yes no muzzle brakes please. Sam, I have a hand cart we can tote it around with if it gets too heavy. If that breaks we can use the new 4 Wheeler, or the Farm Truck to haul it to the range!




Oh my, I hope a couple hundred lbs of powder is enough?

OK, really gotta go now, so catch you boys in a day or two.

Michael

Doc M might disown me, but I have a buch of 335gr LFN gas check cast coming. With TrailBoss powder i am hoping for 1400-1500 FPS. I am looking for a deer-hog load that I can shoot all day long. Ilike to shoot lots and using the Rifle I am going to use on Buff and Ele lots and lots can only be a "good thing"

SSR

Michael,

What kind of penetration are you expecting with the 600 OK? Will you be using the standard 900gr or the lighter ones we talked about a while back? Will you be performing the "T-Rex" test on the OverKill?

Andy

quote:

Oh my, I hope a couple hundred lbs of powder is enough?

With the Overkill I am thinking you'll only get 40 loads per lb. Might want to stock up on H4350

quote:

Doc M might disown me, but I have a buch of 335gr LFN gas check cast coming. With TrailBoss powder i am hoping for 1400-1500 FPS. I am looking for a deer-hog load that I can shoot all day long. Ilike to shoot lots and using the Rifle I am going to use on Buff and Ele lots and lots can only be a "good thing"

SSR

Cross

Never would I disown you for such a small infraction! HEH,,,,,, Fact of the matter is that I would love to get to a point myself of having some plinking, light loads, to put more FUN in shooting all the B&Ms. Just seems I can't ever get around to that, so busy going in the other direction testing buffalo, lion, elephant, hippo, and bear bullets! I know a fellow that said a few years ago about some of the things I do here, he stated this "Michael has finally figured out how to take all the fun out of shooting"--meaning that all the test work was not so fun to him! True in some ways of course, but I do enjoy learning, and doing the test work as well. I replied to him, I asked "Enjoy shooting 22 lr?" "Of Course I do" " Well someone, somewhere along the way had to do some test work even with a 22 lr so you could enjoy it and have fun!"

So, Cross, when you get those loads ready and shooting with the 416 B&M, do let us know what the load is, it's just more good research is all!

quote:

Michael,

What kind of penetration are you expecting with the 600 OK? Will you be using the standard 900gr or the lighter ones we talked about a while back? Will you be performing the "T-Rex" test on the OverKill?

Andy

Andy

I expect the 900 gr BBW#13s to penetrate completely box #1 at any reasonable velocity. I intend to test at some lower velocity as well. I expect even hi 50 inches to 60+ at even low velocity impacts 1800-1900 fps. The BBW#13 is about the best nose profile I have worked with or seen. It also likes velocity--. I expect nothing but 100% straight line deep penetration.

Also looking at lower limits on the NonCons too. We will put the .620s thru the paces. Doc is sending some extra other bullets as well we will test.

Michael

.620 that might be making a trip to Mickael's emporium include:
Kodiak 900g SN
BBS 900g
Macifej SHARRC 800g
Robgunbuilder "Crayola Tip" (my name for them) 730g
maybe a couple of RGB copper Bore Riders
and maybe, just maybe some GSC FN (cause I like em but don't have too many left)

And he has enough of his own CEB #13 Solids and Non-Cons.

He might actually have some fun ...

quote:

I intend to test at some lower velocity as well. I expect even hi 50 inches to 60+ at even low velocity impacts 1800-1900 fps.

Yup, that's what I would say too.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

Oh my, I hope a couple hundred lbs of powder is enough?

With the Overkill I am thinking you'll only get 40 loads per lb. Might want to stock up on H4350

That's about right but I prefer W760 or H414

quote:

He might actually have some fun ...

Too much gin for the SC Crew! Gonna have to bring in someone from Texas for the testing ...