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Ok…we’ve all seen the same issues with traditional C&C bullets, even bonded core, due to jacket construction…though not as often with monometal bullets. You’re indicating that RIP should have used a .510 caliber HV in 650gr or 790gr weight rather than the 450gr weight bullet that he used. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Not to knock the real big-bores from .416 and up with their heavy bullets of 400 grains an up to 600 grains, but buffalo hunting can be done very effectively with a smaller caliber bullet with lower mass, but with a reasonably good SD - both with a FN Solid at 265 grains or a 286 gr controlled expansion bullet that expands reliably and keeping its integrity. Premium controlled expansion bullets (CEB's) are today in fact preferred on buffalo for frontal and side-on shots, as they punch a bigger hole through the heart without the risk of over penetration for use in herd situations to avoid wounding a second animal. Solids still have their place for follow up shots or angled shots. Ganyana of Zimbabwe mentioned in "Frontal Shots on Buffalo", that even if the heart of a buffalo is punctured with a conventional round nose FMJ, it leaves a small hole, which is invariably sealed as the heart begins to contract to pump the blood, and he has seen it to run another 5 kilometres and when you later find him he is dead. He goes on to mention that his 9,3 x 62 mm RWS Tug bullets, which expands well, is highly effective on buffalo, as the expanding bullet will tore a hole through the heart that is too big to be sealed and the bigger the hole, the more quickly the animal will expire. He is also using the Stewart Hi-Performer CEB very effectively on buffalo. The magazines such as African Outfitter has many accounts of CEB's that perform well in the 9,3 caliber , such as 250 gr Barnes-X bullets, 286 gr Rhino bullets and 300 gr Swift A -Frames. Here is another man that sings the praises of the 9,3 x62 mm - Nigel Woodroffe, and I quote his story: - "In April I hunted three buffalo in the Zambezi Valley with Swainsons Safaris operating the Dande North concession in the Zambezi Valley. That all three were killed with one shot each from my custom-built 9,3x62 could perhaps kill the old myth that this fine calibre is not suitable for such large and tough animals. Buffalo number one was a big cow (horns 39½") shot in the chest from about 80 paces with a 286 gr Woodleigh solid, loaded to 2,250 fps. At the shot the cow took off, but only managed about 50 paces before going down. My second buffalo was a very big bull (see photo) also shot from about 80 paces but this time with a 286gr Barnes-X loaded to 2,220 fps. The bull was standing side an and I shot him an the right shoulder. He also ran off after giving the customary lurch and we found him about 30 to 40 paces away, stone dead. The bullet penetrated the shoulder, continued in a straight line through the chest cavity, over the top of the heart and was recovered under the skin of the far ribcage. My last buffalo was a big dagga boy, which I shot whilst he was crossing a dry river bed. As he was going away from me at a slight angle, I placed the 286 gr Woodleigh solid about six-inches to the left of the tail root in the rump. He ran in a semi-circle towards us and went down in thick bush. This solid penetrated almost the full length of the buffalo, going through his lungs and over the top of the heart as well. We recovered the bullet in the front of the chest cavity. My hunt proved that the old 9,3x62, loaded with appropriate bullets, is still strong medicine for one of Africa's most sought-after trophies. PH Squirrel Meredith said to me that if I ever sold this rifle, he would not hunt with me again. Long live the 9,3x62! Nigel Woodroffe"  Warrior | |||
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OK guys I'm back from ZIM!!! Wow you have done a lot since I have been gone. Its going to take me a few days to read everything and get caught up. Now for a short report of my hunt and how the bullets worked. I was hunting in the Rifa area in Zim on the Zambezi valley. I saw quite a few elephant every day but not too many big ones. On Nov 13 , I did not now it was that date! I passed up a very nice elephant with long tusks. It just didn't feel right. About a mile further along I spotted the elephant that the instant I saw it I knew it was the one. My PH was Chris Burton who has lots of elephant experience. I looked at him ans said "I'll shoot this one". We walked up to within 15 steps of 4 elephant and was getting ready to do a heart lung shot when the big bull spun around to greet us. I shot him just below eye level with my 577 and a BBW#13 CEB 2 band bullet. The elephants hind end dropped and he crashed to the ground without another movement. Perfect frontal brain. Man what a great feeling to do it right. The bullet passed right beside one of the tusks and then went through the brain to come out into the spine and then went 3 more feet to come to rest in the top of the back. Finishing shots fired into the chest towards the hips were found under the skin also. The brain bullet had only a very slight bend of the nose. I'd say they worked just like they should have. Tusks are very long and pretty. A few days later I shot a nice buffalo with a frontal chest shot under the chin with a BBW cup point brass bullet at 30 yards. This buffalo was smacked backwards like nothing I've ever seen. He hit the dirt hind end first and lay there kicking. I put two BBW#13's into him for finishers which went into the spine and out the chest dead straight and into the dirt. Both bullets look perfect. The cup point exited behind the shoulder. My friend Doug shot 2 buffalo with his 416 Rem Mag with 330 SSK Non -con's and said they smoked both with one shot. Neither buff went more than a few feet after being hit. Base of bullets were in hide on far side of shoulders. Heart of one buff was in shreads. The only animals to fall to a 50 B&M was a baboon at 230 yards with a 350 Non-con and a Warthog at 50 yards with the same bullet. Both hit the dirt stone dead. None of the North Forks got shot at game. I'll try to have some photos soon and more write up. Sam | |||
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Warrior, RIP wanted to use the .510 caliber wildcat cartridge that he designed…500 Mbogo… and as he shoots this rifle/cartridge combination well so I believe he was correct in using it. Unfortunately he used a bullet…GSC HV .510-caliber, 450-grain bullets, at 2654 fps MV…that functioned properly up close at maximum velocity but malfunctioned at 90yds and then again at 150yds. Here are RIP’s comments regarding the shots pulled from upstairs: Bullets recovered from buffalo number one, the first bullet, from 90 yards away, plugged with bone, bent, and was a spectacular "failure" but the buffalo died nearly instantly. He bucked and lunged like a rodeo bull for about 25 yards before falling over. The second bullet fired at about 10 yards as insurance expanded beautifully. The first bullet was buried in the offside shoulder muscle. The second bullet was lying loose in a chest full of blood, and simply fell out when the buffalo was "halved. The two bullets:    For comparison, unfired bullets and one that was found in a dirt berm at home:    Regarding Premium controlled expansion bullets (CEB’s)…I agree that CEBs should be used and I believe that GSC HV monometal bullets fall into this category. Gerard has now stated that the lighter weight HV bullets for caliber are designed for use against plains game while the heavier weight HV bullets for caliber are proven performers against buffalo. The 510 caliber 450gr HV therefore is a bullet designed for plains game rather than buffalo…regardless, I was surprised that the nose malformed rather than expanding and perhaps even sheering the petals if the bullet is designed to expand on light boned game…yet the bullet malformed at 90yds but mushroomed perfectly at 10yds…makes no sense why this would be the case. Now I don’t have issue with using at 9.3x62 on buffalo…heck; quality .338 caliber bullets that perform correctly will kill a buffalo just as dead…and two known .330 caliber cartridges were known buffalo killers with heavier C&C bullets in the early 20th century. I personally believe that a hunter should only use a firearm/cartridge combination that they are familiar with, that they shoot well, and that is legal to use against the game they are hunting. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Welcome back Sam!!! Nice to hear the BBW #13 did its job and that the Non-Cons worked just as all designed to do. To bad the NF's didn't get a workout as well. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Thanks. You summed it up well. Big bore NonCons of low weight need big holes in the nose to open reliably, even at relatively high velocity, compared to traditional/conventional bullet weights and speeds. Sectional density is still useful in driving expansion of softpoint bullets. Big nose holes drive expansion too! Looking forward to Sam's recovered bullet and post mortem pics. Later! Now I gotta go cry myself to sleep again ...  | |||
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RIP, We live and learn but this was definitely a bummer experience to learn from. The only thing I can think of that would allow a monometal nose to deform like that, especially one that is designed for plains game, would be a HP nose annealed soft. I perceive that might allow the nose to deform on an angled impact but I certainly can’t prove it to be the case. It definately appears Saeed has his .375 caliber Walterhog HP working just fine as he had a few shots beyond 200yds that worked just fine…bullets did just fine as well on buffalo. You can correct me if I’ve recollected wrongly but I believe they’re 300gr bullets so definitely not in the heavy for caliber category with only a .305 SD…just a nicely designed monometal bullet that functions exactly as it’s supposed to. I’m still not sold on the idea that a light for caliber monometal…say in the range of .250 SD if SD must be referenced…requires a “big” hole for the HP to function properly. Michael and I discussed this after reading of the GSC HV deformation and we plan to run…well Michael will be running…tests with the .500 caliber HP Spitzer prototype that Dan will be making in near future to assure that the final design functions as a proper Non-Con at low and high velocity in multiple box mixes. Only tests will prove it but I believe that a reliably functioning 10yd to 325yd .500 caliber HP Spitzer Non-Con bullet is doable. I can hardly wait to see the photographs of Sam’s hunt along with the bullets. It sounds like the BBW #13 FN solid penetrated very nicely on his bull elephant… …definitely good penetration for a .585 caliber bullet! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Thanks for you comments - nicely put. Sometimes we are just dumstruck when a bullet behaves like that. When it is designed to behave in a certain way, and then it does not. Both out of the same lot and box, and yet one works as intended. Different dynamics causing one bullet to fail and not the other. Also as you hinted, stability is less at 10 yds vs 90 yds. This may be just bad luck, as the next 10 or 100 bullets may just expand reliably. What do we make of it then? Perhaps the balance of the 450 gr HV should be tested. I agree with you that that a 450 gr HV should be and could be used on Buffalo. In the .416 Rigby, I know Gerard has recommended the use of 330 gr HV bullets. This is at odds with the new assertion that 450 gr HV bullet is not the right tool for DG. The easiest is just to accept it as bullet failure, just as other bullets have failed on occasion. Not long ago we have seen some spectacular TSX failures right here on AR that did not open up as well. We have also seen a Swift A-Frame that flattened on the shoulder of a buffalo at high velocity. We have had some negative accouts on Rhino bullets on occassion as well. The manufacturer is unfortunately always at the brunt. Warrior | |||
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Warrior, Very good comments and thank you for bringing this up…You are absolutely correct; all bullets will malfunction on occasion regardless of their composition. We just hate it when it happens and it’s even worse when it happens on an expensive hunt. And yes unfortunately the manufacturer usually does catch the brunt of the bullet failure…regardless of the quality of their manufacturing process; nothing can be manufactured 100% perfect 100% of the time regardless of the monetary expenditure. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Pontificus Ignoranus, Go here for your regular dose of exposure of ignorance. Capoward, I sent Ron email with some comment. It clarifies what he experienced but the video of the wounded buff will confirm if I am correct or not. This is not the first time we have seen this scenario and, if this is a GSC bullet failure, it will be a very unique event. Until I see the video I do not think it is a failure. The facts thus far point away from bullet failure as the cause for the lost buff. | |||
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Gerard and Warrior…since Michael in out of town for a few days so I’ll ask in his stead…Please do not devolve this thread into a pissing contest as has happened in other threads. I thank you both ahead of time. I wish everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving for tomorrow and ask for travel mercies for all who will be traveling elsewhere for the holiday! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Huh. . . . Thanksgiving . . . ? When's that. . . . ? Sounds like a good day to be in the hills with a rifle! | |||
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Dennis are you getting any closer to your bear for the season? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Not yet, but just missed a mountain lion last week! Held about 5' high with the .300, and Hillbilly watched the bullet (as the sun was at our backs), thru the bino's, and said he saw it just pass over it's back! 4" lower, and I would have splined it. They are everywhere up here right now. The Bears are about to go into their den's for awhile now. But will hunt till years end. . . . just because it's what I do. . . . Cheers Jim! | |||
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Sound like you need to dispose of a few of them!! Good hunting! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, I will respect your request, and refrain from answering Gerard. His response should be enough for you to see the light. Always another spin from him. Attacking and personal insults. And yet again him jumping to the conclusion that I am part of Rhino Bullets. And his devious observation of "Oops!" to cast doubt .... LMAO. Warrior | |||
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Thank you Warrior, it is much appreciated. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Capoward, Here is a friendly warning. Do not agree with Warrior. He will adopt you as a friend, start quoting you out of context and the next thing your reputation will be shot. Look at what happened to Alf. Warrior even agreed with something that Alf quoted as an example of something he does not agree with, such is Warrior's level of comprehension and his zeal in following his Agenda Example: He says one thing and does another. He lies like a sack.
On 25 November I posted here. A day later he is there with a reply that is so full of mistakes it is laughable. It is very clear what his Agenda is, is it not? | |||
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FFS will u 2 just STFU, Gess ur like lil kids, GO AWAY!  | |||
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Jim, Just a small correction here with regard's to Gerard's complaint that I have written to RIP. I have agreed that I would not engage in a pissing match with Gerard on Micheal's thread, and I stand by that. He always will misconstrue the facts and put another spin on things. Here is the first paragraph that I wrote to RIP and see what it says specifically with regard to Gerard. "Rip, The figure work presented here is rather intriguing and seems to break new ground. I am writing this to you and not to Gerard, I am not interested in any discourse with him. The website says ... NEW RULES ... and we have them indeed. Warrior" | |||
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edit, see below it dont mean a thing-if it aint got no zing!! | |||
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it dont mean a thing-if it aint got no zing!! | |||
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edit, see below it dont mean a thing-if it aint got no zing!! | |||
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Gerard & Warrior, Gentleman I’m taking no sides other than Michael’s. And I do thank both of you for abiding my earlier request, it is much appreciated. I wish both of you a very happy day. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Some questions for you: This advice is in the context of C&C bullets. If the recommendation of the manufacturer is otherwise, whose recommendation do you follow? Here is my evaluation of Ron's experience. Do you still believe that it was a bullet malfunction that allowed RIP's buff #2 to escape? Do you still believe that the 510450HV that killed buff #1 malfunctioned? Does my objective evaluation bring more clarity now? Annealing does not enter into the situation but have you ever seen a cape buffalo humerus? How would a bullet with a more readily expanding nose or a C&C round nosed solid have behaved here? Warrior whined to you that "Just a small correction here with regard's to Gerard's complaint that I have written to RIP." Do you believe he is acting in good faith or is he spinning? | |||
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Sam, that is FANTASTIC!!!  Looking forward to reading the full report and seeing the photos but reading this really got my blood pumping and makes for far better reading than the S.S.D.D. drivel written between your post above and this one. Given your experience, did the CEB #13 penetrate better than would have been expected with other solids? I have no elephant experience but recent writings by those with extensive experience describe other well-designed solids stopped dead by vertebrae. This seems to confirm the findings that you and Michael described in your test - the 577 shooting CEB #13 penetrates beyond expectations. Waiting patiently on the development of the .620 CEB #13 3+1 band solids for my elephant! NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Gerard, I’m not attacking you so please allow me to say right up front a couple of things: 1) I’ve never shot your bullets, and 2) I’ve never shot cap buffalo…in fact as I’ve posted on many forums within AR I’ve never hunted Africa. Regarding the GSC HV 540gr bullet malfunctioning at 150yds: This was an unfortunate assumption on my part as there is nothing as of this date that has been posted that is indicative of a malfunctioning bullet at 150yds. I apologize to you as the owner of GSC Bullets for this statement. Regarding the GSC HV 540gr bullet malfunctioning at 90yds: Pictured are the two GSC HV 540gr bullets…recovered from the deceased cape buffalo: The bullet on the right, impact at 10yds, is a perfectly mushroomed bullet. The bullet pictured on the left, impact at 90yds, is malformed and it did result in the demise of the cape buffalo…you as the manufacturer and RIP as the user are the only two who can state whether this bullet performed as intended by the manufacturer. The rest of us, especially me, are strictly the peanut gallery. Also, thank you for laying to rest the issue of an improper annealing of the GSC HV bullet. And no, I’m not taking sides in the dispute between you and Warrior. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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CCMDoc, Sorry I haven't posted more on my hunt. I've been very sick since my return and still not feeling well. I'd say the #13 bullet performed as we thought it would on elephant. It penetrated straight and went about 6 feet total. The bullet only had a slight nose dent which I think shows it performed very well. The buffalo was shot with one of my cup point bullets and I was very impressed by the shock it had on the buffalo. I also shot a warthog frontal with a cup point and this bullet went through the teeth and jawbone before going on to the shoulder. I was supprized at how little penetration I got on the warthog but teeth stop bullets fast. The cup point was expanded and damaged on one side. I was very pleased with how the 577 did and really don't think I can go back to my smaller doubles for hunting dangerous game. The 577 sure packs a punch! I'll try to get photos posted soon. Sam | |||
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Sam, Thanks for the update. Feel better - we can wait for the report and pictures - the anticipation will make it all the more interesting. Paul NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Sam hope you get to feeling better quickly. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I think I speak for many that we wish Sam a speedy state of full health and that we look forward to pictures and report. On the buffalo bullet, I would be very happy to have a 90 yard shot at a buffalo that penetrated the upper forearm bone, took off the top of the heart and was recovered on the far side, after reducing the buffalo to a hobbling stupor and death throes. It's exactly for such occasions that we are avoiding 'lead core' bullets. the 450 grain HV seems to have held up and done its job. It punched through the bone straight and probably made a very reassuring 'cracking' impact sound. karuump. kudos all around. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Tanzan…your comments are very cogent…Thanks for the reality check. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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sam get well soon, congratulations with the successful trip. best peter | |||
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with the case of the bullet failure, and to me it was just that, why is this any different than a C&C bullet. the bullet enters, deforms a little hits a bone start to tumble and weering of course, thankfully it hit the heart and killed the buff. BUT.... that happens with all bullets. trying to claim that they have been designed like that on one tread and on this tread ridiculing the costumer for using the wrong bullet is just lame BS this tread have shown more than anything else what we should expect from a monometal bullet, without that performance why bother at all. And no spinning and attacking the messenger/costumer with a hoiler than thou attitude can change those facts because that is what they are. facts! rip, thank you for posting the hunt with all the facts you were abel to get, and i am sorry about the other buff. best regards peter | |||
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That is where you interpretation is wrong. The 510450HV did not veer off course, penetration was linear. We build in redundancy for when things get tough so that failures are all but eliminated. As long as you think in terms of c&c bullets and what to expect from them and not look closely and objectively at HV performance, your mindset will remain. Nothing we can do about that, change is willed from within. | |||
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Gerard,what do you think of the hornady DGS solid?.Do you have a 500gr 458 bullet that penetrates better? | |||
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Thanks guys for wishing me well. I'm feeling a little better and out today. I have put some of my photos on photobucket and I'm trying to post them. Could someone tell me how to get permission to post photos and how to go about actually posting them from photo bucket? Sam | |||
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 so even though the bullet were tumbling, you will lay claim to the fact that it actually TUMBLES in a straight line because of your design.  i find it an amasing thing that anybody besides your son in law belives the  you are sprouting.the fact that you have lied to me in the past, and still comes here and wants me and others to belive your sad statments is really beyond belief. this is just a suggestion from me to you, accept your failure and appoligize to the client, then do what ever you have to, to make your failure and flaws go away in the best way. Dont make statements that you cant/wont back up as it will catch up to you eventually. peter | |||
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OK I'm going to try and post a photo. Sam WEll I've tried and messed this one up. I will try again. | |||
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