Gibs

Those 12 bore are destined to Peterdk. He has 12 bore double rifle sort of things!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by eljefedouble:
Michael-Sake, waigu beef and a pretty girl friend? whoah, and a 50 MDM grouping like that? I think you ought to see your doctor soon-in about 20 years

eljefe


HEH HEH--whew, it's getting more difficult to get a stir out of this bunch here. They used to be a lot of fun, but I don't know, I think they are drying up and getting old or something? Either that, or they are just sick to death of me?

M

Jim

Well, you know they don't let me out too much!

No, accuracy in the 50 B&Ms is crap when seated deep in the 50 case--seat long, and it starts to come right. Those are the first 500s that I have shot in the 500 MDM seated where I would normally seat the bullet in the 500 MDM case. Looks like the 500 MDM is going to be fine with that bunch of bullets. All the new ones will be 3 bands topside. Personally they will shoot better even than that, if I could do my part a bit better, but with a 1X4 and heavy duplex and my poor eyes these days, it makes it hard for me to hold them together as well as even two years ago.

I remember when I was a youngster, not so long ago, doing a lot of handgun stuff back in the 80s-early 90s--some older guys complain about their eyesight and their poor shooting! Yeah, right you old bastard, you just can't shoot, that's the problem!!!! Oppps.........busted now! I am that old bastard and I am doing the complaining!!!!!!!



Michael

Missing? We have several missing participants, and I am getting curious? RIP, Mike, Boomy, Tanzan, Peter, and a few others not heard from in some time now?

Of course Sam is still across the pond, and I have not heard from him? 465HH is across the pond chasing elephants too. Both our boys are on a test mission, and both have BBW #13s and double rifles!!!! Sam also has the new 450 North Fork FPS loaded in the 50 B&M and a 350 Brass HP for others. A friend of Sams has a 330 Brass NonCon in a 416 Remington for lion and buffalo.

I will be leaving Tuesday morning for Thanksgiving Holiday. Actually going up to visit with the boys at Accurate Innovations that afternoon in NC. Then off to the mountains in NC. I am afraid I will be out of touch completely until the following Monday. I probably won't even have cell service, much less internet access there. I am talking "Backwoods"!

I think if I recall correct, Sam is due to return sometime this coming week???? And I am going to be out!

Sam, if that is a fact, I will call on the cell phone when I get a chance.

OK, I have to get in the lab, get going on doing some loading and seeing what I need to do today on the range!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Gibs

Those 12 bore are destined to Peterdk. He has 12 bore double rifle sort of things!

Michael

No worries Matey, so long as someone can use em. If you didnt tho, I was gonna put my hand up for em, I have one of them fangled .729/12G Rifle things too.

im back, im back

sorry had to be a few places in europe and play with burocrats and see if i could beat an engraver into submission, i could, but apparently breaking his right hand were a stupid move ah well live and learn.

peter

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey, Look what come on the UPS today? I don't know what this could be, I don't shoot "Shotguns", this sorta looks like a "shotgun bullet" of some sort? Gees, there's a lot of them too?

hey Doc M

it looks great and no ass residue which should mean that you did not roll around in them

seriusly they look perfect and i cant wait to get them flying over a crono and slamming into something, so what do you think besides bad cats and buff, you think we could get an ele to behave with one of these ?

peter

P.S email on the way, and THANKS AGAIN

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
im back, im back

sorry had to be a few places in europe and play with burocrats and see if i could beat an engraver into submission, i could, but apparently breaking his right hand were a stupid move ah well live and learn.

peter

Pete

Oh God--I have learned no matter where you are in the world--bureaucrats are all the same, regardless of country, race, religion, all the same! I like your term for those people better--Buro-Crat, as in Burro-Donkey or "Ass"! Very well said!

Now, breaking the hands of the engraver--yeah, that's not real good, you might should have busted a knee, a foot, leg, anything but the hands.
HEH

OK, yep, I wiped those big copper babies down before photos, so no ass residue where I was rolling around on them naked! But no telling what you will get with the shipment, I did not clean all of them! HEH HEH


Oh easy, cats and buffalo, zero issues there. Elephant? I forget the velocity you are running? 2000 fps? They have a beautiful 70-71% perfect meplat, perfect radius too. Weight 587. Exactly the same as the samples Sam sent to you, I have a couple of those myself, except in copper. I can't see any reason in the world that ele would be a problem, getting the penetration with 2000 fps. I wish I had a way to test them here in my test medium, it would be easy to tell you--but I can't get the velocity with what I have here with those. I know you were excited about the penetration in the Hay Bale? Do you have something to compare too--that has done well on elephant?

Perfect meplat/radius, velocity at 2000 fps, I can't see why they would not be excellent for caliber. Certainly I would think the best there could be in that caliber.

Very Welcome.

Email me and we will sort them out!

Michael

Three cheers for Michael!
Hurray! WooHoo! Yippee!
When you didn't post for 5 days,
I was sad as could be.
Now you're back in gear,
And I'm happy to say...
Way to go, Bwana Moja!
And, have a GREAT day!!!

Happy Thanksgiving Y'all,
Mike

Michael,

I suspect that others, like me, need some "soak" time. Some time to let everything "sink" in. Some time to let our brains organize a bunch of data and re-examine the implications.

We've reached a sort of plateau in this work that will form the foundation for further exploration. We need to insure that plateau is firm.
That plateau should also give us the direction for further exploration by rasing new questions worthy of furher work.
So it's a time for eating, drinking and staring off into space. BUT not too long a time, lest we lose our focus.
Happy bird day to all.

Still here Michael. . . . . lot's of good info here, wouldn't miss it fur nuttin.

Man, all the testing you have goin on, and all we have to do is sit back, open a bottle of good beer, and read the results! How can this get any better?

You GO boy!

I agree with the soak/dwell time.
the > 65% meplat giving a different sort of performance,speed reading from page 1 to page 105,across two fora and 14 hours time zones, part envy, part incredulity, part disbelief.the 1000 yard stare gives me away,cant slip it past the wife-you're planning another rifle, arent you?

quote:

Originally posted by Gibs:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Gibs

Those 12 bore are destined to Peterdk. He has 12 bore double rifle sort of things!

Michael

No worries Matey, so long as someone can use em. If you didnt tho, I was gonna put my hand up for em, I have one of them fangled .729/12G Rifle things too.

gibs

what sort of 12 bore do you have ?

these bulets are made especially for my new 12 bore double rifles, so they are actually a bit undersized to stay away from trouble if they came into the hands of other people, but as soon as i get them here and do the tests it should not be a problem dublicating the load for other sort of 12 bore rifles.

i actually have a 120 year old BP ele 12 bore double that i want to test these in

best

peter

oh guys

big bore start on the north side of .620"



peter

Pete, Gibs, Eljefe, Bid D, IBT, 450NE

Now that's more like it, a little speaking up from time to time, let me know I am not talking to myself!!!!!! And of course ya'll know I have no patience at all!!!!!

IBT--You are correct, we have reached a plateau of sorts, and especially with the solids. I think there is little left to do, and if it were possible to make any gains, they would be so minor as to be moot for the amount of work that would be required to get it. If it was possible at all? I see very little work needed in the future on the solids in the "lab" so to speak. As the #13s come on line, in other calibers, I will be testing to confirm them, but the days of us testing so many different styles, designs, this, that the other, those are coming to an end. We have identified the important needs, and points to make a good solid, one that will work and one that you can rely on. I can't see there being much more left to do in that arena.

We have few things left to do with some Non Cons, I will be testing the new calibers as they come online of course, and I think I have a couple of things up my sleeve on a NonCon, and probably Sam and I will be looking at the noncons too when he gets back, but that is getting very close to a peak also.

It's time to get these in the field, and out of the lab, which is exactly what we are doing as much as possible. It's time to get many of these out to you guys, so you can be working with them in your rifles, and on your hunting trips as well! Then to try and get the input from the field back into this thread also.

These are the directions I think we should move towards now.

Of course I have taken us somewhat off target at times, especially of late, but in an indirect way things like pressures, velocities, does lead back to terminals, so those are not too far off and are related to issues here.

Yes, there is a lot to absorb, and to contemplate upon! We have been on a great mission of discovery no doubt, I have learned a great deal in the last year since we started this project. I think many of us have. But I was thinking, as much as we have done, observed, learned right here, there are people all around us that still don't have a clue, even right here on this forum? How that is possible, I don't know. Even I look around, I may not post much anywhere but here, but I do look around and if something might be interesting, I at least take a look. But there are hunters here on this forum, that have little interest in "Terminal Performance", how that can be, I cannot fathom, but it is true. Just not interested at all. But yet go to the field every year? Amazing to me, just amazing!

But here we are---You guys must take this outside of this thread. I can't do it, not all of it anyway. Take it out elsewhere, to your shooting buddies, to other hunters, to other forums, and any place you think it will do good. Eljefe, is from Australia, he joined us this week because Con and Short&Fat have taken this to their forum Australian Hunting Net, which I have joined also, Con is doing a great job down there, they have some NonCons they are working with, and the results are the same as what we have here. They are getting some field work done too, and it looks great. I know some of you are doing just that, taking this outside our thread here, and that is good, others still don't have a clue as to what is really going on. They need to know this stuff too. Yep, sometimes it's going to be a battle, look at some of the battles we have had. But it's worth it in the long run, there is no reason at all not to improve on what we have, to take our cartridges/rifles to new heights, new and better performance, and we can do that, and we have done that with these bullets, and others like the North Forks! But not many outside our little world have a clue. Take it there, take it with you.

Anyway.......droning on.

M

Been on the range some today! Some test days are just extreme--excellent results, everything goes great, no hitches in the program, just runs smooth. Then there are "other" days! Today was one of the other days!

Did a little primer test with the 50 B&M--with the pressure trace, that went rather well. Then I hooked up the PT to the 500 MDM. No results??? Had a hookup, everything looked good--no go! OK, changed the lead wire, started getting pressures--not correct ones! Checked everything over, ended up pulling the wire out of the gage! Damned things are so delicate, and sensitive! Well, have to strip that gage, put another on. I suppose recoil had pulled the wires some over time. Oh well......test days! I spent over an hour monkeying with that! This afternoon I will be installing new strain gages on the 500 MDM, a 458 B&M and 416 B&M. I want to test the pressures of the new BBW #13 solids and HPs as opposed to other bullets when they come in.

Anyway--Primers! Another day this week was one of those "Other" days! The day I changed to a new lot of Federal 215s, and a new keg of IMR 4198. Got a little more pressure than I had been getting. So I decided to run a little primer test.

I used 5 rounds with the new Federal 215s, and 5 rounds with a Federal 215 Match. Now I tested the Match primers when I got them, but not with the pressure trace, just chronograph and accuracy, and I got zero difference in velocity or anything else, over the regular 215.

Here is how this turned out.

Regular Federal 215 (New Lot#)
500 gr CEB BBW#13 68/IMR 4198

Hi 2205 fps Lo 2185 fps ES-20 Average 2196 fps 60285 PSI


Federal 215 Match
500 gr CEB BBW #13 68/IMR 4198

Hi 2206 fps Lo 2194 fps ES-12 Average 2199 fps 57566 PSI


That is a small difference, only 2719 PSI. However, it is a difference and if one added two more grains of powder to that--Which 70 has been my standard load for a very long time, couple of years anyway, and that was running 60000 PSI only a couple of weeks ago, then to over 65000 this week with the primer change. Now it is a bigger difference.

It is not uncommon at all to have that much of a difference within a shot string, especially 5 or more rounds--in fact a difference of 2500 PSI within a shot string is rather small.

But when you have two strings that certainly show a trend of that difference, then it is enough to make note of. To actually get a real idea of what was going on with the difference in primers, one would have to test more, and in different calibers and cartridges as well.

For my purpose today, I answered my question I had, and just sharing it with you.

I won't use anything but Federal Primers. Sorta like I am with Winchesters, I use Federals, always have, and refuse to try anything else, except in handguns and there it just don't matter what you have as long as it goes bang. I buy most of the time in 5000 piece lots. I just started this week on a new 5000. Gotta watch this crap sometimes, it can bite back. I think that's a good reason to leave yourself a little room so that if a change is made, it does not bite as bad when it does bite you. I got bit, but didn't draw blood, just a little sticky bolt is all, and not really that bad on that count had I not been shooting brittle brass! Old and worn out brass!

Now, also take note, that difference of 2700 PSI did not show up on the chronograph at all!!!!!!
The New Fed 215s at 2196 and the Match at 2199 fps. 3 ft per second difference? That is no difference at all--so without the PT one would consider those the exact same, eh?

I tell you, sometimes by trying to answer something, one drags up more crap that just is not supposed to be! Those "Other" days!!!!!!!!!!!

M

Ya'll reckon this is better than reading one of the monthly gun magazines (rags as I call them)?

Let's see, right now I have piled under my desk, guns/ammo, shooting times, SCI, Hunting something or other, rifleman, guns, and a few others, several months of each, not one damned thing in none of them that has any interest to me at all--not one. The adverts are about all worth looking at, the sponsors will be happy to hear that. And just when you think there might be something of interest, it ends up being the same old same, and the writer knows less about it than you do! I tell you, I am going to drop these subscripts if they ever run out! Of course they do make good bullet test mix if used properly!

I see upstairs this week someone was talking about how good this months SCI was? Hmmmm? I don't see much different. I quit looking at that a long time ago, just peoples hunting stories, and abotu 95% of the time, they never even mention the rifle, cartridge, bullet, nothing? So not much interest there, and my name is even in one of those lame ass articles, have not even read it either!

Nahhh, gun rags are pretty useless, mostly for youngsters to learn from, and not much substance. Unless of course it's an article about me or the B&Ms, then that's a good one!



HEH
M

Doc M

we still have a long way to go, just wait till our friend sam comes home with that 80 pounder.

we still need(i do anyway) to figure out what the F*** the hollow end is all about, SD is DEAD well i need a few more tests, to get this around my bogged up mind, i know i used it as a weight reduceder but i had no idea that i wouldent affect penetration, i just i wouldent affect it to much.....


still baffeled


peter

Peter
Yes, I am excited to hear how the big 577 did on the elephant--But I told him don't wait on 80, shoot the first big body bull he comes across! HEH

Oh, yes, there is work left to be done, no doubt. But less than before for sure. Funny you should mention the Hollow Base Bullets! Jim also brought those up this week too, but Jim was very serious about them, he ordered 14 boxes of them. I also ordered 14 boxes for test work in addition to Jims. We are taking the 500 gr BBW #13 .500 caliber, hollow base in it to 460 grs. So Jim is a step ahead of both of us on that one. I have been so busy with other things, they had really slipped my mind, was very glad he brought them up! You see, I need input from all you guys, this is not just about what Michael tests and does, it's been an effort from everyone involved.

Now, speaking of Hollow Base Bullets--remember the ones Sam sent down before leaving, the ones that were going to beat Corbins little 6.5 pills?




Yes, well, I only had one each of those. I suppose I was too conservative on the load, and velocity was too low on both of them, so penetration was limited by velocity on this test--remember what I said about those "Other Days", this was today!






I see I typed in the wrong weight on the label too--Should read 540--Not 530 gr. Appears that day is continuing!
Michael

Oh yes, I did have something to add. The 600 gr bullet, want to talk about dead straight?

And last but not least, the 460 CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point, 500 MDM at 2670 fps!

This is the 4 Inch Witness Card.







Wicked, just absolutely wicked! These are the most wicked bullets I have ever worked with, and they do love velocity, but they do very well at lower velocity as well. I cannot wait to put these in buffalo! I want to see the reaction as they take the bullet--that's as important as bullet digging--I pretty well know what the bullet digging is going to look like, but it's all important to watch the reactions of the beast when taking it!

That's it for me guys!

Later
M

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
[QUOTE]
Gibs

what sort of 12 bore do you have ?

these bulets are made especially for my new 12 bore double rifles, so they are actually a bit undersized to stay away from trouble if they came into the hands of other people, but as soon as i get them here and do the tests it should not be a problem dublicating the load for other sort of 12 bore rifles.

i actually have a 120 year old BP ele 12 bore double that i want to test these in

best

peter

Nice one Pete. Mines the one in my sig, a Savage 210F Bolt Action .729/12g. Its been given the Rob/Ed treatment so its a cloned 12gFH. Due to the Firearm Laws here in Australia it lets me by pass the .50cal an up restriction because its "only a shotgun".

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well, try as hard as I can to tighten things up, I still let one slip out. I think the bullets are going to shoot accurately and are not an issue. Michael is the one that needs to tighten up the act some!

Michael,

Awesome for a .500 caliber.
Micheal it is clear that you are to blame for not putting them all into one hole.
This .500 caliber of yours is causing a mind shift - I never liked the 458 Lott.
a 500 gr bullet is launched at 2,340 with ease and you call it a mild load - this cannot be done with a .458 Lott, at least not with SA powders. 500 grain monolithic solids are too long for the 458 Lott in any event - for years most people have opted for 480 Gr FMJ's instead due to the length issue.

What is the size of the case, dimentions, and water capacity? If available what is the pressure with the above 'mild' load of yours?

Warrior

Warrior

You can see more about the 500 MDM on the B&M website, general load data, all sorts of things.

Remember, it and all my 50s are true .500 caliber--not .510.

The 500 MDM actually is a small rifle for cartridge capability, but big compared to a 50 B&M. They come standard 8.25-8.75 lbs depending on the wood--21 inch barrel, all Winchester M70s--of course, there really is not another bolt gun.

The case is a 2.8 inch RUM case, I use 375 RUM, easiest to form out. Case capacity around 120 grs water I think.

I have been doing one hell of a lot of work with these the last 6 weeks or so. I have had 2 strain gages on the rifles--the first one I decided I didn't trust the low pressure readings, so I took it off, replaced it, and found out the first strain gage was good to go, got the same readings! Then yesterday that strain gage broke on me, so I am putting a new one on today. Along with some other rifles for work coming up in a couple of weeks.

I am not kidding, 2340 fps is a light load for this rifle/cartridge and the BBW #13! Now do remember, a lot of this capability is in the bullet itself, in particular the band designs on the CEB bullets, and the New North Fork .500s. A standard typical bullet can't get as far up the ladder as these can. But at 2400 fps with this 500 gr BBW #13 you are running around 45000 PSI with several different powders, RL 10X at the top of the list, H-322 right with it, Benchmark, IMR 4064, all doing well.

A couple of weeks ago I had to know what the upper end was, with a good strain gage hookup I was able to take it further than I would have ever done without the strain gage so I could keep a close eye on it. With this 4 band 500 gr #13 Brass SOlid 92/RL 10X gave me 2411 fps on 3 different 3 shot runs from 42000 low up to 45000 PSI hi. So that was my base, and moved up from there--94/RL 10X gave me 2456 fps at 49000 on two runs of 3, 96/RL 10X gave me 2506 fps at 56000, 98/RL 10X gave me 2538 fps at 58000, 100/RL 10X gave me 2580 fps at 59000, and I had to go one more time to 102/RL 10X at 2617 fps at 62670 PSI. I stopped there. All case study agreed with this, and never once a sticky bolt or even slightly. Everything worked perfect.

So then I had to find out about the new North Fork 450 gr FPS and CPS bullets too. As they had given me big surprises in the 50 B&M as well. A common load I had been testing with was giving me a tad over 2500 fps with the 450s, so starting there with 94/RL 10X at 2527 fps with 47000 PSI, I jacked things up as I knew I had lot's of room there, so to 98/RL 10X gave me only 2589 fps at 52000 PSI, so straight up to 102/RL 10X for 2667 fps and 53000 PSI! Not moving much, so off to 105/RL 10X for 2748 fps and 59000 PSI. I stopped there, 2748 fps with a 450 North Fork Cup point and 2718 fps with the FPS was a plenty, with both at 59000.

Then no play yesterday, the new 460 gr Brass CEB BBW#13 HP with 102/RL 10X at 2670 fps, doing the terminals. But I could not get the pressures, the wire pulled out of the strain gage!

Now when I take the 500 MDM back out into the field in June, I won't be pushing those velocities, just not needed, especially with the solids. JHC-2400 fps is a plenty, but it is also very pleasant to shoot at 2400 with a 500. I am pretty sure it won't be an issue to get the 500 gr solid at 2400 fps shooting with the 460 #13 HP at 2550-2600 fps, I will run the HP up some in velocity just to watch buffalo explode like prairie dogs. The 450 North Forks I will run at 2600 fps or so, just to see the same. These bullets, both from CEB and North Fork are incredible, you don't have anything on the continent there that is safe from these, regardless of whether in the 500 MDM or the 50 B&M, either one. All of this at very low pressures, one would never have a concern about in the field.

Of course, let me remind you, it's a whole lot about these bullets and the way they work.

Michael

quote:

But at 2400 fps with this 500 gr BBW #13 you are running around 45000 PSI with several different powders, RL 10X at the top of the list, H-322 right with it, Benchmark, IMR 4064, all doing well.

Michael,

How would this strain gage PSI relate to SAAMI or CIP testing methods of psi?

If fairly close at 45,000 psi, then we truly have a winner here for the big bore fanciers. 120 grains of water capacity is about what is needed to get these velocities and the bore size of .500" also helps to lower the pressure to the square of diameter.

Certainly the bullet design helps to lower the pressure, by virtue of lower shot start engraving resistance.

Warrior

Warrior

How would the strain gage relate to other methods? I have a few documents on that, and they say they correlate very well. But I say, there are a lot of variables that come into play, and there are no absolutes or few. What I can tell you for a fact is that in the days of using them on 458 Lott, 458 Winchester, 416 Remington, I bought factory fodder and tested, and it was close, very close in some cases to published data. But, one has to take your barrel measurements very carefully, one has to have a good strain gage hookup and installation, and one has to be able to recognize when something might not be just right!

I trust the system to a point, and it's a wonderfully effective tool as long as you recognize the issues. Very sensitive and delicate system. But if everything is working proper, which it does most of the time, it is very effective and will correlate close with case measurements and other indicators of pressures! But beware, when you make a change in primers, powder or anything else, prior data can and will change, sometimes dramatically! The strain gage is good enough to show you that too, where a chronograph and other data may not!

Oh there is no doubt that if it shows a load is 45000 psi, it's low pressure and you would never have an issue with that. And you are correct, the case capacity and bore size does enable you to get those velocities at lower pressures easy.

The design of the bullet and it's bearing surface allow you to "exceed" normal parameters. Which in the long run, can and does effect terminal performance, which gives this discussion relevance on the "terminal performance thread" to boot!

Michael

I would like to see the DGS and the A-frame made with those bands that reduce engraving and pressure.It would certainly be a big plus for the lott.

Shootaway

With the DGS you would still have an inferior solid, in comparison! DGS good in comparison to others--but zero comparison to a BBW #13.

Too bad, there will be a BBW #13 for 458 in a couple of weeks, a 450, and later a 500. Would be perfect for the lotts! Too bad you are bound to a DGS.

Michael

I am not bound on anything.Why is the BBW better than the DGS? Does it penetrate further? If you believe so, are your sure? You got over 62 inches of penetration from the DGS from the lott.Does the BBW have a better track record of staying in a straight line course? How often does the DGS go of course,if it does? At high velocities,low velocities? Do your Winchester bolt guns feed anything you put in them? Does the larger meplat surface give further penetration? How about shooting the two(DGS and BBW) side by side a few times and give us an average of the results on both?

Hi Doc M,
Page 108!!!
I am reading along.

Amazing how the BBW HB #13 FN brass bananas penetrate, regardless of twist-rate/bullet-length/weight considerations!



Shoulder stabilized by best ever nose shape,
dart stabilized by hollow base,
and whatever twist rate is still helpful!!!
Good show.
Is it merely academic? Bullets too long for field use except in special harpoon guns for whaling?

Of course I see how some shorter special application bullets could use a hollow base in limited case capacity cartridges, etc.

You are right-on about the GSC HV .510/450-grainer not qualifying as a "NONCON."
Needs a much bigger hole in the nose for copper to expand reliably, to not plug and bend the nose.
At 2654 fps MV, it killed one buffalo at 90 yards by tumbling through the heart with a plugged and bent nose.

Brass hollow point with big hole in nose:
The S&H brass hollow point .395/310-grainer at 2760 fps MV killed six critters up to the size of Zebra.
All were pass-throughs, no recovered bullet, whatever the angle, and all with massive internal bleeding.
4 of the 6 shots were well placed heart/lung shots, and the animals died promptly: Zebra, Topi, Hartebeest, baboon.
2 of the six were quartering center of mass gut/lung shots (warthog and baboon), but devastating bleed-outs anyway.



Low weight for caliber bullets need a big-diameter hole in the monometal nose to make them expand reliably.

Saeed has perfected his nose hole in the copper Walterhog .375/300-grain bullet at 2700 to 2800 fps MV. I am reverse engineering that now.



Two toothpicks give an idea of the depth and width of the nose hole.
Note the chamfering of the entrance to the nose hole. A control on the expansion?



Keep up the good work.
Yes it is indeed better than any of the gunrags.

Michael,

You lose AGAIN

Close but no cigar.

Even Sam's super stealth streamline 540's and 600gr spears did not dethrowning the 6.5mm, even when driven at the same velocity. Blah, blah, blah, I am just going to put in my ear plugs. Try again

By the way, you will need a third box to contain the new secretly developed 6.5mm pills. I am not sure the building will contain them

BR

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Peter
Yes, I am excited to hear how the big 577 did on the elephant--But I told him don't wait on 80, shoot the first big body bull he comes across! HEH

Oh, yes, there is work left to be done, no doubt. But less than before for sure. Funny you should mention the Hollow Base Bullets! Jim also brought those up this week too, but Jim was very serious about them, he ordered 14 boxes of them. I also ordered 14 boxes for test work in addition to Jims. We are taking the 500 gr BBW #13 .500 caliber, hollow base in it to 460 grs. So Jim is a step ahead of both of us on that one. I have been so busy with other things, they had really slipped my mind, was very glad he brought them up! You see, I need input from all you guys, this is not just about what Michael tests and does, it's been an effort from everyone involved.

Now, speaking of Hollow Base Bullets--remember the ones Sam sent down before leaving, the ones that were going to beat Corbins little 6.5 pills?




Yes, well, I only had one each of those. I suppose I was too conservative on the load, and velocity was too low on both of them, so penetration was limited by velocity on this test--remember what I said about those "Other Days", this was today!






I see I typed in the wrong weight on the label too--Should read 540--Not 530 gr. Appears that day is continuing!
Michael

quote:

You are right-on about the GSC HV .510/450-grainer not qualifying as a "NONCON."
Needs a much bigger hole in the nose for copper to expand reliably, to not plug and bend the nose.
At 2654 fps MV, it killed one buffalo at 90 yards by tumbling through the heart with a plugged and bent nose.

RIP,

Could we see the plugged bullet with the bent nose. The photo you showed looks like the HV normally behaves with lost petals and a blunt top. Please clarify as the HV normally opens up as it has a bigger hole than the Barnes-X. However if not annealed correctly and not softened up enough, it will not open up or just partially.

The other buffalo that got away, was that a bullet issue or perhaps bad shot placement?
Just curious to know your take on it.

Thanks
Warrior

RIP

Yes, for sure, the VERY LONG BBW #13s was a pure academic exercise. Very much too long, and of course I missed the velocity on them, only having one each I leaned towards being a bit too conservative.

While you were out, I think we discovered the magic formula for "copper" HPs--of course those wide cavities, as Michael thinks 50 yds is long range, and that BC is of no use to me anyway. But we have found that limiting the depth of the big copper HPs to .300 inches deep, the blades shear in the exact same manner as the brass ones do. Copper being malleable, long petals want to try and hang on longer, peeling back, enough velocity, yes they shear, but along the wound cavity, shorter petals cannot peel, so they will shear and move away from center, exactly as the brass does, leaving the big slug to continue it's on it's merry way of destruction.

We now have some excellent examples of the BBW #13 HP--copper and brass. They have tested unbelievably well--both of them.

458 and 416 versions have been ordered up! In addition some other versions ordered to be tested as well, in bulk! A Hollow Base in .500 is being done too. Lot's of things in the works since you have been gone.

It sounds like the brass .395s performed exactly as expected. Sam shot a deer before leaving for Africa with a 350 Brass NonCon from his 50 B&M--I think 90 yds or so, 5 of the 6 petals exited the far side!!! 12 inches from center. Massive destruction of tissue.

Sam is in Zim now, elephant with the 577 Nitro and 750 Copper BBW #13, has a 450 North Fork FPS and 350 Brass HP for the 50 B&M, a friend is there for lion and buffalo with a 330 brass NonCon in 416 Remington.

465 HH is on the ground too for elephant, with enough 500 gr .474 #13s to try also.

Saeeds bullet, the chamfering? Maybe. I think if I were going spitzer, I would go brass HP. They shear, I have used them and tested some. We will be doing the .500 spitzers for Jim, in brass.

BIKE

YEAH YEAH YEAH--Blah blah Blah! You see, that's why I missed your call yesterday, was on the range trying to kick your ass! HEH HEH--no success yet!


Michael

Warrior,
Lookee here:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/1771094441

The GSC HV .510/450-grainers I used must have been some left over old style with tiny nose hole?

quote:

We will be doing the .500 spitzers for Jim, in brass.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


You are right-on about the GSC HV .510/450-grainer not qualifying as a "NONCON."
Needs a much bigger hole in the nose for copper to expand reliably, to not plug and bend the nose.
At 2654 fps MV, it killed one buffalo at 90 yards by tumbling through the heart with a plugged and bent nose.

Brass hollow point with big hole in nose:
The S&H brass hollow point .395/310-grainer at 2760 fps MV killed six critters up to the size of Zebra.
All were pass-throughs, no recovered bullet, whatever the angle, and all with massive internal bleeding.
4 of the 6 shots were well placed heart/lung shots, and the animals died promptly: Zebra, Topi, Hartebeest, baboon.
2 of the six were quartering center of mass gut/lung shots (warthog and baboon), but devastating bleed-outs anyway.

Low weight for caliber bullets need a big-diameter hole in the monometal nose to make them expand reliably.

Here is what I would say are proper buffalo bullets--in copper. These are a tad on the light end, but the penetration is there. With a .300 cavity the petals shear even, all at the same time, and perform exactly like the brass bullets do, petals moving away from center, indicating all shearing at the same time, whilst the remaining slug continues to penetrate. Remember, 500 Swift A from a 458 Lott will only do 24 inches! So even light for caliber, what does this do?






Another proper buffalo bullet, North Fork Expanding Cup Point--







In Australia in 09 I was there with the 500 MDM 470 Copper HP by SSK/Lehigh at 2425 fps. Anything hit under 50 yds the petals sheared, lot's of trauma inflicted, but the petals all sheared within wound cavity, this is a .500 deep cavity, 6 blades peel back, doing their best to hang on, they don't shear at the same time, leaving a trail of petals from 4-15 inches or so of penetration. The guy with me for part of his shooting he used the same bullet loaded in the 50 B&M at 2200 fps. This was basically a 6 bladed copper conventional, rarely did any of the petals shear. While it did a great job, and he lost nothing by using it, he did not get the penetration he would have gotten if the petals sheared. I believe very strongly in that penetration (who would have guessed after 108 pages). Between the two of us we shot some buffalo, a total of 40, of which I shot 27 of them. It was an excellent exercise! On this next run over the next year I am going to be using the 500 MDM and the 50 B&M, load out, the new 460 Brass BBW #13 HP-matched with the 500 Solids, and the North Fork CPS and FPS 450s. In both rifles. I think a big improvement. For those that will use copper, the BBW #13s will all come with .300 deep cavities, 6 blades. North Fork is going to come around eventually and the CPS bullets will all expand like the 450 .500s--I keep hammering North Fork about that, I think that is exactly where they need to be-Expanding Cup Points! No spitzers for buffalo.

Michael

It beats me why a plains game bullet is used on DG when the right tools are at hand.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/johnharris.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/rab.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galrabbison.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/johnharrisele.html

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
It beats me why a plains game bullet is used on DG when the right tools are at hand.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/johnharris.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/rab.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galrabbison.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/johnharrisele.html

Gerard,

No attempt here at initiating a pissing contest.

As to the why of using a HP monometal against buffalo…there are many posts on the African Hunting, the Australian/New Zealand Hunting, the Big Bore, and the Double Rifle forums which state that the a premium soft point or an HP monometal bullet is preferable for at least the initial shot(s) on buffalo to impart maximum trauma and that solids should only be used on follow-up shots where bullet penetration may be required to reach the escaping buffalo’s vitals.

I do understand that not all monometal bullets are created equal even when similarly shaped. That said, I’ve visited your website many times and do not recollect a posted warning that your HV bullets are only plains game capable.

Edit added: And I personally am especially interested in a .500 caliber HP Spitzer that will properly function at close range…say 25yds to 25yds…as well as out to around 325yds.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
….
Of course I see how some shorter special application bullets could use a hollow base in limited case capacity cartridges, etc.
….

RIP,

I’m not sure that I can agree that the HB bullets usefulness is focused on “limited capacity” cartridges.

I believe that a properly designed HB bullet is as useful a tool as are properly designed HP, Cup Point, or FN bullets and their usefulness encompasses more than limited capacity cartridges.

I’ve told Michael that is perceive the 460gr CEB BBW #13 HB and HP bullets will provide identical trajectories and POI when using the exact same powder and powder charge weight well beyond Michael’s 50yd standard.. At least this is my rational behind ordering 14 boxes (252 bullets) of the 460gr CEB BBW #13 HB bullets to go along with the same number of 460gr CEB BBW #13 HP bullets. I will admit though that I’ve also ordered an equal number of the 500gr CEB BBW #13 FN solids.

And here’s what has led me to this belief:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
And last but not least, the 460 CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point, 500 MDM at 2670 fps!

This is the 4 Inch Witness Card.





Wicked, just absolutely wicked! These are the most wicked bullets I have ever worked with, and they do love velocity, but they do very well at lower velocity as well. I cannot wait to put these in buffalo! I want to see the reaction as they take the bullet--that's as important as bullet digging--I pretty well know what the bullet digging is going to look like, but it's all important to watch the reactions of the beast when taking it!

That's it for me guys!

Later
M

Though I guess proof will be in the pudding…or so they say…when the HB’s arrive and Michael has a chance to test them alongside the CEB BBW #13 HP and FN bullets.

There is no such posted warning. I would expect that it would be self evident that a 375 HV in 200gr is a plains game bullet while the 265gr HV or the 270gr FN would be used for DG. In 416 we do a 245gr HV and a 330gr HV. Why would anyone use the 245gr HV for DG? In 458 there is a 270gr HV and a buffalo bullet it is not. The 450gr HV, on the other hand is a proven performer. And so on.