quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
No, I have not forgot my buddy Paul and .620---just gotta get things right you know! No crying!
M

On the copper noncons we were discussing the Ultra bores--.585 and .620. The depth of the HP and the actual width of the HP this morning. On those we are going to have to experiment just a touch to get it right I think. So we will start with .585 since we have Sams double to work with--since Corbin sold the 600 OK we don't have a .620 to work with anymore. But we can sort it out with the .585 I am sure. As for all the other calibers (except the mediums) we have that worked out without a problem, I think! We will know when the new 416s come in. From 458-.510 everything is good to go.

When you go to slam old buff next year I want that .620 CEB BBW #13 HP to make a good impression!

I am going to slam some buff next year too with that 500 MDM and the 50 B&M, the 460 CEB BBW #13!

M

After 4400 Posts and 86,000 view I did not want this topic to slide off page one.

Just like in the classifieds BTT...

Michael,

Received some 500 grain BBS for my Lott. At 2220 will 72" of newsprint come close to stopping them?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I have learned now, get a problem with a tooth, down half a gallon of Sake, followed by 5 shots of Grey Goose, and get a large set of pliers and snatch the problem out quickly! No big deal! Hell, I don't need that many teeth anyway! HEH HEH!

Michael

You will end up like this....
http://dinfar.dk/wp-content/woo_custom/35-692.jpg

But hell - nobody cares in the bush..
hahahahahahahaa

Mike, Is THAT how you look? The price one pays... for load development,I guess?
Best

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
After 4400 Posts and 86,000 view I did not want this topic to slide off page one.

Just like in the classifieds BTT.

Michael,

Received some 500 grain BBS for my Lott. At 2220 will 72" of newsprint come close to stopping them?

Mike

I have been terrible lazy since Thanksgiving, have not been to the range at all! I know, it's awful! I have been working with Dan at CEB all last week getting the new order ready, so I expect them to start rolling in this week, so once they are in, it's back to the range again and the terminals!

As for the 500 BBS at 2220 and 72 Inches----Maybe? But with straight wet print I think it's going to go out the backside!

M

Eljefe

Teeth are way overrated! My grandfather got along just dandy with 3 teeth on the top side and two on the bottom side for years!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Eljefe

Teeth are way overrated! My grandfather got along just dandy with 3 teeth on the top side and two on the bottom side for years!

Hmmmm Michael.. I can imagine he did...

I have just returned from an elephant hunt in Zimbabwe where I took three elephant. One tuskless cow, one tusked cow and one old bull with very small ivory.







I used the Woodleigh 500 grain .474 diameter Hydro from a 470 Nitro at 2,145 fps. on the tuskless. The shot was very unusual as she was slightly quartering away from me and she raised her head and trunk very high. Therefore, the bullet entered about 3" above her right ear slit. She went down with the typical brain sot head raise and crashed down. We thought she was dead on bullet contact. We went after a second tuskless cow in the herd but she got away and returned to the first carcase after about 15 minutes. Much to our surprise she was gurgling and vebale moving her trunk tip. Another shot centrally to her forehead gave us the rear leg death kick. She was in a very favorable location to get the Cruiser up to her so we took the head back to camp to more thoroughly examine the skull. We skinned the head and then sawed it in half to follow the bullet paths. We removed both halves of the brain and saw that the rear part of the brain was mostly bloodshot mush. What was most amazing is that the first bullet left an entrance hole through the skull the size of a 50 cent piece. This bullet penetrated the brain cavity centrally and angled forward slightly to exit the brain cavity about half way forward. Again the holes in the brain cavity were very large and the amount of coagulated blood was awesome. We tried to recover the bullet which we knew had to be somewhere in the left portion of the skull to no avail. But we do know that it did not exit the head. If it had exited it would have amounted to 27" of penetration. The frontal shot also penetrated the brain but higher and that bullet exited the skull 3" above the first shots entry hole and was also the size of 50 cent piece. The bone between the two holes was broken out leaving a hole about 4" by 1/12". Amazing destruction the skull. The second bullet then penetrated the neck and was found behind the shoulder blades in the loin meat. That amounted to a little over 40" of penetration.

On the bull I used the CEB 13 deg. .474 500 grain bullet also out of my 470 Nitro. The bull mock charged us at around 10 yards then took a couple of paces towards us and dropped his head as if to charge. I lined up for a frontal just above the eye line but as I squeezed the trigger he raised his head and the bullet hit way to low for a brain shot. He whirled and I lined up for a hip shot as was running directly away from us. Just before I fired he turned 90 degrees to the right and ran behind some brush. I could only see the top third of his back and I placed a bullet just forward of the right ham intended for the spine. I got lucky an broke the spine. He went down in the rear end and tried to pull himself forward dragging his paralyses hind end. He was down as we approached but swinging his head wildly and trumpeting loudly. I placed a bullet into the neck that missed the brain due to his moving his head. It went over the brain and exited the trunk below the eye line, about 34" of penetration. Another bullet was placed directly into the ear slit and killed the bull. That bullet did not exit although it should have exited somewhere in the left cheek area. If it had exited it would have penetrated around 36". We could not get the vehicle close enough to recover the head so no post mortem in it. We did recover the bullet that broke the spine in the opposite shoulder bone. Around 39" of penetration.

The tusked cow was also shot with the CEB 470 bullet. She was around 20 yards away and quartering to my left. I placed the bullet about 4" behind the left eye just above the zygomatic arch. She went down instantly dead at the shot. An insurance shot was then placed into her forehead from around 8 yards. Again we were unable to recover the head for post mortem. The first bullet should have exited the head near the right ear hole but didn't. If it had it would have penetrated 29". The insurance shot should have exited in the throat region but didn't. If it had it would have been 31" of penetration.

So here was what I learned. But before I go into it I want to say that I try to have an open mind and will change my opinion when new data comes forward. The following is just my opinion based on my experiences in shooting elephant with a pretty wide variety of calibers and bullets.

1. Elephant heads are extremely difficult for a bullet to fully penetrate on shots that angle through the head. That is the case no matter what type of solid that you use.

2. Frontal shots that miss the tusk sockets or teeth are much more likely to fully penetrate the head and depending on the type of bullet will be found somewhere in the neck or between the shoulder blades.

3. The cup point of the Woodleigh Hydro seems to make much larger holes that either RN or FN solid in head bones. Typically, the RN and FN solids make holes in the skull bones of caliber or slightly larger size. The Woodleigh Hydro made holes in the skull 1 1/2 to 2" in diameter.

4. The small cup on the end of the Hydro seems to cause much more blood trauma than other designs.

5. Both bullets gave similar amounts of penetration but not all could be measured.

6. We have now proven that an elephant can be hit in the brain and the rear portion of the brain at that, without killing the elephant.

Recoverd Woodleigh and CEB solids from elephant.

[IMGhttp://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w55/465H-H/2010bullets002.jpg[/IMG]


465H&H

I neglected to add the following to the above post.

In no way am I casting aspersions on any solid bullet type with the above info. I am simply reporting what I saw. If I was to standardize right now on one bullet type for elephant it would either be the Woodleigh Hydro or the CEB #13 with a small cup point to enhance bone damage and blood trauma. Most likely it would be the CEB as I do like the lower pressure readings that Michael has reported.

465H&H

465HH

Wonderful report, very excellent job. Welcome home and glad you made it back safely.

Before I move forward, how about fix the pic of the bullets?

Funny how animals just seem to not want to stand still and let you get the perfect shot in sometimes, eh? Now if that bull had just held position for another millisecond? Then just as you get ready to bust a hip he dares change direction again? Sometimes they just don't seem to want to cooperate with the program I suppose! All of us that have been in the field understand this all too well!

I wish that it would have been possible to do a little more postmortem on those CEB #13s. But it is very difficult to get some of these things done in the field, I very well understand that, and I don't always get my postmortems either. It's nearly impossible to do each and every time. So we do the best we can with what we got! I appreciate you working with the bullets.

I have little to add or talk about concerning your report, other than we are in very much agreement on most all your major points. My little experience on elephant heads is that angled shots are very difficult, I think one of the most difficult shots any bullet can have. Frontal and direct side shots will in fact exit the head much easier.

Seems to me the Cup Point is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Inflict trauma, it does this in the test medium as well.

Which bullet--For Sure--actually went through the brain and did not KILL the elephant????

Now, I know that some folks may think you have completely lost your mind, but not I. The reason is this, I have heard of and read about several, if not many, incidents that have occurred in humans, being actually shot in the head, bullet penetrating the brain, but not kill them! This is documented fact. So if this can happen in human--I can imagine it would happen in other species as well.

Well it is not a big issue to put a cup point design in a CEB BBW #13, that can be done easy! Sam used some Cup Point BBWs on his trip in the 577. Myself--well, I would like to see more cup point info coming from the field I think.

Thanks for an excellent report!

Michael

Sorry that I didn't notice the pic of the bullets didn't make it. Here it is.



465H&H

465 H&H,

Great report and congradulations on your hunt. Got to be lots of fun to be able to shoot 3 elephant on one trip. Good tests of bullets and I'm happy to see you had good luck with the BBW#13 as well as the Hydro. I agree with you that the cup point nose causes much more tramua than a RN or FN. I really like the cup points I used and think they are a good choice when you might need a solid but want a soft point. Best of both worlds.

Sam

Michael,

You are just going to have to go and shoot a bunch of buffalo to get us more field data.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

You are just going to have to go and shoot a bunch of buffalo to get us more field data.

Sam

You damn right!

I sure hope some are left to shoot next year? Right now I have 5 cows booked, and 2 bulls, if the bulls fall out I have option on 5 plus more cows. Cows, bulls, they are buffalo, I don't care.

Then I am booking 50 for Australia!

M

Sam,

The above BBW#13 copper bullet, is that 99.9% copper? I ask this because there seems to be no damage to the bullet at all or even a slight bulging at the nose.

Thanks
Warrior

Michael,

That should do nicely. Not sure you can handle 50 so I might have to go along and help.

Sam

Warrior,

We will have to ask Dan at CEB to find out what alloy he used for those bullets. Will get back to you on it.

Sam

quote:

Well it is not a big issue to put a cup point design in a CEB BBW #13, that can be done easy!

I'm trying to get my mind straight on the cup point performance that is desired.
The NF cup point that has been pictured several times on this site, peales back into a larger than caliber diameter.
The cup point of the Woodleigh Hydro seems to maintain its size, actually pushing back into the bullet and slightly expanding the shaft. As I recall, Woodleigh was experimenting with steel cup points to insure that the cup maintained its original size and shape throughout penetration.
Is the desire to emulate Woodleigh or NF behavior?

OK, here are my thoughts of cup points. I think there are two types to be talked about. The NF CP that expands to a point and then goes on as a solid,(expanding solid I call it). Then you have a Woodleigh Hydro which I think in most cases will hold its shape and not expand unless lots of bone is contacted. This cup is for trauma and I think limits penetration some what. I like the cup point non expanding for when you want a soft but need to use a solid. You get the best of both worlds I think. My BBW brass cup point used on buffalo and warthog did a great job and I was impressed at the reaction of the buffalo when hit. Now I'm not sure if that was the type of bullet or the fact that it was a 577 that made the difference. All that said I really think there is a place for non expanding flat nose solids, expanding cup point solids, non expanding cup point solids and Non Con nose blowing bullets that have a penetrating base. Every animal and hunting application will require the hunter to decide which he or she feels like is the best bullet for the job at hand. That ought to stir the pot a little.

Sam

IBT

Well, you have a good point to ponder. One that I also have to, have had to, and continue to wrap around my mind!

North Fork--Not all "Cup Points" are created "Equal"! Huhhhh, What? Well, there are "expanding cup points", like the lighter weight .458s we tested, and the 450 and 375 .500 caliber cup points I had North Fork do for my .500s. Then, there are the "Limited Penetration Cup Points". These do not expand as much as the "Expanding Cup Point", in general drive deeper, cause extra trauma to target, but do not give the penetration of the same bullet in a solid.

Now the Woodleigh Hydro. Cup point design, brass or similar, harder than copper, in soft tissue holds the nose pretty well, does not deform as much. Bone, obviously deforms some, and is of course either way, limited penetration solid, will not penetrate as deep as a non cup point, or a flat solid of equal size, meplat and so forth. Inflicts more trauma than a standard flat nose, even in the test medium they do this to a degree. 465HH noticed a great deal of trauma inflicted in the bone material, and blood trauma. 465HH also says these drove straight, so that is good. Now, what does concern me, especially with "elephant head shots" is that all that bone and tough material might deform any cup point, copper or brass, as the edges of that bullet are the weakest point. What happens if you get a deformation on one side? Thinking of doing a BBW #13 Cup Point, in copper, I would be concerned about getting deformation in heavy bone? Maybe, maybe not? I think for lesser critters, buffalo and down, it is a non issue, I think about the only place to have concerns is elephant brain shots, with any cup point.

Another thing too, there are different ways to do a cup point. Sam has made several different cup points, some are very shallow, and did very good, but being shallow they were also very strong on the nose, they would not deform much at all. But some looked great, but did not perform like a cup point, so it's a bit of a formula I think to get it just right to achieve the desired results.

I am a little like 465HH is about some things, I gotta put some more thought into a cup point on elephant brain shots before being very happy with all around results. 465HH did great with the ones he used, they came out fine, but time will tell I suppose as with any new concept or design.

Hmmmmmm--I am on about these cup points, like the RN Crowd WAS about the FN????


HEH HEH HEH!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That should do nicely. Not sure you can handle 50 so I might have to go along and help.

Sam

Sam

Would love to have you go along, but you can get your own damned 50, ain't getting none of my quota! I figure in 5 days I will need another 50!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That should do nicely. Not sure you can handle 50 so I might have to go along and help.

Sam

Sam

Would love to have you go along, but you can get your own damned 50, ain't getting none of my quota! I figure in 5 days I will need another 50!

M

Regarding nose deformation see : http://www.woodleighbullets.co...tatically-stabilised

Look below - they write "Stainless Steel tipped Hydrostatically Stabilised Bullets are currently under development"
A picture of the mentioned bullet is to be seen on the left. Interesting!!

OK Michael, I'll get my own 50.

Buffalo,
interesting that Woodleigh sees they need a steel nose!

Sam

Warrior,

The bullets are made out of 99.5% copper with some additives to make it easier to machine. Thats about all I can tell you about the material.

Sam

Sam,

Thanks a lot for coming back. The modest velocity of 2,145 fps obviously also contributed to its near perfect form. A great design and distribution of mass ensuring straight-line penetration.

Warrior

Warrior

I believe the BBW #13 Nose Profile to be "Robust" one might say--while any bullet can and will deform on some things, ball joints are typically pretty hard on a bullet, elephant heads are tough on them too, the nose profile of some is not quite as good as others, and depending on the materials. The #13s, in copper hold up very well in the T'Rex Test I do.





I will be doing some more testing of the copper and brass CEB BBW #13s this week and next.

Michael

Michael

Thanks for posting these - it is as good as it gets. With pure copper in concrete I would have expected more bulging at the front, but it held up well. The bullet recovered from the elephant and displayed by 465H&H is testimony of what a great copper bullet it is, and at the same time being softer on the barrel as well.

Warrior

NEW ARRIVALS!!!!!!!! Yippie!

Here is the NEW .474 500 gr CEB BBW #13 Solid and it's Companion .474 470 gr CEB BBW #13 HP. They look great! Hopefully Sam will get his run, and we are getting geared to test the first of the week barrel strains. I might test the HPs with the Capstick in between.

We made a test run of the brass 416s CEB BBW #13s. Notice how small the Hollow Point is, how thick the blades will be? I will test these tomorrow and see what happens. I am thinking there is a possibility that the blades/petals will hang on just a bit longer before shearing? Either way--Really?

Recall how I have been telling you guys that I felt like both the HP and the Solids would have the same POI at 50 yds--Dangerous Game, Long Range? 458 450 gr CEB BBW #13 Solids-perfect 67% meplat, excellent radius, matched with a 420 gr CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point--both brass in this case. Excellent for 458 B&M and 458 Winchester--will be hot rods in a Lott and larger case. I went conservative on these loads, a grain light on powder just to be safe, 77/AA 2520. Runs the solid at 2210 fps, and the HP at 2221 fps-in an 18 Inch 458 B&M. Tomorrow I plan on doing pressure traces to see where this is, and also terminals.






Now if I could shoot a little better this would be a much tighter group! But, today, with that 4X Nikon on the 18 inch English 458 B&M, this is as good as I could do at 50 yds. Maybe I will keep practicing like Shootaway, and I will get better!




So far, in all the .500 caliber rifles and now this one 458, the HPs and the Solids have the SAME POI at 50 yds. I suspect you will find the same in your rifles.

Michael

quote:

I suspect you will find the same in your rifles.

Michael

Suspect? Who's a suspect???

The problem with the bullets that are making it into the "finals" is that they're too good looking to mess up with groves from the rifle and marks from the game!

I think I'll get me one of each and encapsulate them into a clear block of something or other.

Make a heck of a conversation piece.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
The problem with the bullets that are making it into the "finals" is that they're too good looking to mess up with groves from the rifle and marks from the game!

I think I'll get me one of each and encapsulate them into a clear block of something or other.

Make a heck of a conversation piece.

And they are just as nice in hand as in the photographs.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

I suspect you will find the same in your rifles.

Michael

Suspect? Who's a suspect???

JWP

I suspect it's YOU!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
The problem with the bullets that are making it into the "finals" is that they're too good looking to mess up with groves from the rifle and marks from the game!

I think I'll get me one of each and encapsulate them into a clear block of something or other.

Make a heck of a conversation piece.

And they are just as nice in hand as in the photographs.

IBT/Capo

Boys, you are 100% correct! Damn they look great! I am glad you brought that up too by the way. A few weeks ago CEB told me that they slowed the process down, the cutting, so that the bullets would look better, nicer cuts, more refined and polished. The statement went if they sped things up they might could get the price lower, but the bullets would not look as good! I SAID NO WAY--A fellow has to have "Good Looking" bullets! I am not going to the field with UGLY BULLETS! Why that would be an insult to any animal taken if you used a UGLY BULLET!

HEH.

Michael

I think the land marks, small dents and scrape marks add immeasurably to the history and performance record of a recovered bullet. A new bullet is just a bullet waiting for a story of its own.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I think the land marks, small dents and scrape marks add immeasurably to the history and performance record of a recovered bullet. A new bullet is just a bullet waiting for a story of its own.

465H&H

Very well put also! Character! That's what I call it! I can only add one thing,has to be tainted with "blood" to have that character. A test bullet, in test medium, well while that is necessary to advance our science, it does not have "Character", or memories that go along with it!

All that said--I still want it to "Start" out "Pretty"!

HEH

Now, it's off to the range with me, burning daylight here. Cold--around 20 degrees this morning-range is standing at 47 degrees until I turn the heat on--and the WATER is VERY COLD!!!!! Terminals to be done. Probably posting tomorrow morning.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

You mean like this!

Sam

I venture to say that the bullet you recovered above is and will be a very treasured bullet, and that you will never have a bullet that has more meaning to you than that one!

M

Now, that being said, the experiment with the 416 NonCon did not go well. Small hollow point, thick blades/petals.






Sometimes it does--Sometimes it Does Not!

While penetration was fine, blades did shear, but not evenly. Blades did not shear at once, but along the wound channel. They were heavy, twice the weight of normal, did damage no doubt. But by shearing unevenly they did cause instability and inconsistency as you can see. I come up way short of calling it a failure, more like just not exactly what I am looking for. Maybe a little too unpredictable for me. Would they do the job--Oh yes, they are very effective and cause lot's of trauma. On predictable shots--broadsides, fine. Tough shots, like raking rear or frontal--hmmmmm..................??????

It was only a test, to see what happens--now we know. The production runs will have a bigger HP. Within the next week or two!

Another experiment I have requested along these lines is coming, maybe today. Remember the .500 caliber 460 CEB BBW #13 HP? Perfect in 50 B&M and 500 MDM---big buffalo hammers! Well, a few days ago, I got to thinking about thin skinned cats and bears and LOTS of trauma. I asked Dan to make up a 100 of the brass Noncons in .500 with a .800 deep cavity as opposed to the .400 cavity in the 460 gr .500. I am thinking massive explosion inside the body cavity, long blades and petals going in 6 different directions, remaining slug continuing to penetrate. While I am very sure that penetration of the remaining slug will not equal the full 460 gr bullet by any stretch, I don't think it will come up short on penetration--especially on thinner skinned dangerous game, lion, leopard, bear even.

Now what got me to thinking this is Art Alphins "lion load" bullet. I think that is a failure and a issue waiting to happen, if it has not already. While the concept was good, the bullet is not good enough, and can blow up on bone or muscle before getting inside to vitals. Perfect shot broadside yes maybe--explosive effect, massive transfer of trauma is exactly what you want on kitties! But not at the "sacrifice" of penetration.

We will find out I suppose.

Michael