This is BBW#13 recovered from skin in the back of elephant that was a finisher fired into the chest toward the hips.

Paul

Thanks! I hope you include yourself in that "brothers In Arms" deal!

Sam

Well, as I had little doubt as to how any of the bullets worked, it's still very satisfying to get the field reports like this, all across the board! I knew the #13 BBW was going to be a great success, but it's really hard to figure out how the brass NonCons are going to work, and how they will transfer trauma, and depth of penetration of the remaining slug. While I have lot's of data on conventionals, and solids, and can correlate those pretty close--NonCons are different, we are only now starting to gather this data, so possibly in a way that holds even more interest for me currently.

As you described to me the way the 416 330 NonCon reacted, it was exactly the same in the test medium. I suppose the blades/petals, dispersed within the body cavity doing damage, and inflicting trauma. I would doubt seriously the blades would have made it to the far side of a buffalo. But dispersed within the body cavity slicing and dicing through vitals is perfect!

I have lot's of hope that maybe this week we will get 416 and 458 Hollow Point Bras NonCons--from BBW #13s! While the SSK/Lehigh do very well, I think we have added some positive tweaks to the #13 HPs! And very much so especially with the copper versions, that will perform the same as the brass now!

Even going into the dirt after passing through the buffalo the CEB BBW #13s still look very good, and elephant body shots don't seem to faze them either!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
....
I have learned now, get a problem with a tooth, down half a gallon of Sake, followed by 5 shots of Grey Goose, and get a large set of pliers and snatch the problem out quickly! No big deal! Hell, I don't need that many teeth anyway! HEH HEH!

Michael

It looks like Sam's great blueberry wine won't help you. I really enjoyed that. You should probably try the Goan Fenny (made from the Cashew fruit or from Coconut) - real firewater mate. Or Ceylon arrack which is made from rice I think. South Indian Arrack is similar and also fiery. Sake is sweet compared to that stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul

Thanks! I hope you include yourself in that "brothers In Arms" deal!

ABSOLUTELY!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam

Well, as I had little doubt as to how any of the bullets worked, it's still very satisfying to get the field reports like this, all across the board! I knew the #13 BBW was going to be a great success, but it's really hard to figure out how the brass NonCons are going to work, and how they will transfer trauma, and depth of penetration of the remaining slug. While I have lot's of data on conventionals, and solids, and can correlate those pretty close--NonCons are different, we are only now starting to gather this data, so possibly in a way that holds even more interest for me currently.

As you described to me the way the 416 330 NonCon reacted, it was exactly the same in the test medium. I suppose the blades/petals, dispersed within the body cavity doing damage, and inflicting trauma. I would doubt seriously the blades would have made it to the far side of a buffalo. But dispersed within the body cavity slicing and dicing through vitals is perfect!

I have lot's of hope that maybe this week we will get 416 and 458 Hollow Point Bras NonCons--from BBW #13s! While the SSK/Lehigh do very well, I think we have added some positive tweaks to the #13 HPs! And very much so especially with the copper versions, that will perform the same as the brass now!

Even going into the dirt after passing through the buffalo the CEB BBW #13s still look very good, and elephant body shots don't seem to faze them either!

Michael

Sam's outstanding successes come as no surprise given:
A Your description of his shooting prowess and accuracy with his Verney-Carron 577 Double at the range;

and

B The results of your exhaustive testing and redesign based upon results.

Very excited by Sam's results. Can't wait to give these CEB #13s a try on my next DG safari in November 2011.

Do the markings on the bases of these bullets suggest that they flipped over (after the deathstar explosion) and continued traveling base forward as a devastating "Big Nose" FN solid?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
These are the .416 330 grain Non Con's recovered from 2 buffalo. All bases were found in hide on far side. Buffalo didn't need a second shot, both down within feet.

Rip,

You are correct in at least one of the bullets tumbling, One of these was found sideways in the hide. I am waiting on written details from my friend who used these on the buffalo. I will post once I get the details. I think there are also photos of post mortum.

Sam

I am fascinated by the dialog on tumbling bullets being able to maintain their original/intended trajectory. MORE, MORE

Back when we first started testing the NonCons we thought that they might actually tumble, however in the test work done they did not actually tumble. All drove dead straight, nose forward and were found that way--With the exception of this 416 330 NonCon Brass. In the last 2-3 inches of penetration it started to loose stability, and did start to veer off course somewhat. Some were found sideways at the end of penetration. I would be surprised if it actually "tumbled", I think it more or less just looses stability at the end.

Of course it is possible that it could tumble I suppose. This is once again I think where 416 needs a faster twist rate--my 416 B&Ms are 1:14, 1:12 or 1:10 would more than likely stabilize that last bit of penetration.

From the 3 bullets in the photo we see the one far right has a serious shear down the one side, the middle has a bump on the one side as well. These bullets have a very deep cavity, at least .5 inch or better I recall. The new BBW #13 HPs all will have .400--With the nose design so far they are shearing very consistently, and I think they might maintain a better nose up front as well. We will see when the new ones get here.

None the less--two very dead buffalo, and did not get a step or two at most. I think this falls right in line with the amount of trauma inflicted by these bullets right up front. In a way it's a shame they are so damned good--I can't see any reason for me to have shelves full of Swifts, Barnes, Woodleighs anymore! Maybe I will gather these up and have a Bullet Sale!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul

Thanks! I hope you include yourself in that "brothers In Arms" deal!

ABSOLUTELY!


Very Excellent--


Sam's outstanding successes come as no surprise given:
A Your description of his shooting prowess and accuracy with his Verney-Carron 577 Double at the range;

and

B The results of your exhaustive testing and redesign based upon results.

Very excited by Sam's results. Can't wait to give these CEB #13s a try on my next DG safari in November 2011.

Yes great success such as what Sam experienced comes at a price sometimes. I recall my first elephant hunt--in the couple of months before hand I spent nearly every day working on one of my 458 Lotts--once the load was established I started shooting, a few rounds every day. Standing at 15-25 yds, sitting at 50-75 and doing lot's of field positions. I shot hundreds of rounds before the hunt. When the magic moment came it was a side brain shot at 31 yds, and it was over at that moment. All that work, for the 1 shot--but it paid in the end.

This was even more tedious than that--all the bullet testing and work involved with getting the #13 where it needed to be. Sam's shooting didn't need much work--he is a hell of a good shot with those doubles, and everything else too. And Sam is not the type to get rattled in the field, have mission--gets mission accomplished. It was the hours and days spent on the lathe on his end, and some days the test work with me in the lab that made this a great success as well! I think that first day with me in the "lab" changed the way Sam thought about things, and he went to work, and put my ass to work right along with! HEH.....

Almost there--almost there!

Michael

Michael,

You are very correct. It is so sad when the trigger has been pulled and the hunt is over that all those thoughts and preparation go poof! I love the hunt more than the kill which is the way it should be.

Yes now that I think of it you did change my thoughts on bullets and I guess I did give you something to do in your off time. HEH HEH! It ain't over till the fat lady sings!

Thanks for all your help and you and the BBW#13 is the reason I got to go elephant hunting this year. Had no plans and knew it would be a long time before I went back to Africa. That all changed when the #13 arrived.

Sam

Gents All:

Been watching this thread since early on and just wanted to offer an idea ref the "tumbling" phenom.

Is is possible that the general angle (more or less straight/flat point of impact) and consistency/density of the test medium as the bullets pass through might effect/cause the projectile to travel "straighter" than the inconsistency of flesh, tissue, organs and bones the same projectile passes by and through in real life.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Gents All:

Been watching this thread since early on and just wanted to offer an idea ref the "tumbling" phenom.

Is is possible that the general angle (more or less straight/flat point of impact) and consistency/density of the test medium as the bullets pass through might effect/cause the projectile to travel "straighter" than the inconsistency of flesh, tissue, organs and bones the same projectile passes by and through in real life.

Yes!!
But everything else equal, its a very good way of measuring each bullettypes performance against eachother..

416 330 non con verses buffalo. This is my friend Doug with his buffalo shot with a non con.

Sam - your friend had a lion on quota right?? What became of it?


Ulrik

Ulrik,

Yes my friend killed a lioness. He shot it with a 375 H&H and a 300 grain Swift A frame. It was an 80 yard shot and only took one.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Gents All:

Been watching this thread since early on and just wanted to offer an idea ref the "tumbling" phenom.

Is is possible that the general angle (more or less straight/flat point of impact) and consistency/density of the test medium as the bullets pass through might effect/cause the projectile to travel "straighter" than the inconsistency of flesh, tissue, organs and bones the same projectile passes by and through in real life.

Hey Taco

Good to hear from you, hope all is well your side!

Shooting in the field--anything and everything is possible!

What we find in particular with the "Solids" is that in animal tissue we can get straighter penetration with less than optimum bullets (round nose/small meplats) than what we will get in the test medium. We will also get about 30%-35% deeper penetration in animal tissue than in the test medium with the solids. So the test medium is a really good test to separate the good from the bad, and it weeds the bad out pretty quickly on the solids.

With conventional expanding, those have been very consistent between test medium and animal tissue--both will give the same results when it comes to how the bullet reacts--Penetration of the conventional expanding bullets will be 80% to 100% deeper in animal tissue than the test medium. This has been very consistent over the years of testing both.

NonCons? Well, there is still a lot to learn from the field with these. So far, I think things are panning out to be pretty consistent with the test medium on the bullets I have worked with--the only bullet in question of stability is the 330 416 we see. In the tests, it looses stability at the end of penetration--I think!!! THINK-I don't have absolutes here YET--that this is what is happening here on these buffalo also. I don't think tumbling bullets have a tendency to go straight--I think these bullets went straight until they got near the end of penetration, then lost stability.

I can't speak for prior or other bullets that I have not tested, that may have been discussed while I was out last week.

Sam

Tell the boys what Doug had to say about the reactions of the buffalo taking the 330 Brass NonCon, and also how he was reluctant to use them to begin with, and how he feels now! I think that's a pretty good thing to point out, a fellow that knows nothing about them, I think Sam had to do some work to convince him to use them!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Ulrik,

Yes my friend killed a lioness. He shot it with a 375 H&H and a 300 grain Swift A frame. It was an 80 yard shot and only took one.

Sam

Well that's just "Common"! What a shame the lioness didn't get taken with a "Real Caliber"!

Common, just common!

M

I think Doug was very impressed with the Non con's. He has shot lots of buffalo and he says now the non con is the bullet he will use. He is writing me a little bit about the two buffalo he shot and I will post his coments when I get them. His PH was also happy with the performance of those bullets. Doug did say that the buffalo were both smoked with the first shot and I think down went down with the shot but were able to get up and go a few feet. His buffalo last year was shot 13 times with a 450 nitro before going down.
By the way Michael, Doug wants some 30 caliber non con for his 300 Jarrett. Thats how much he likes them.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Ulrik,

Yes my friend killed a lioness. He shot it with a 375 H&H and a 300 grain Swift A frame. It was an 80 yard shot and only took one.

Sam

Well that's just "Common"! What a shame the lioness didn't get taken with a "Real Caliber"!

Common, just common!

M

Michael,

I wanted him to use the 416 and non con's but the gun was a cutom built rifle that the maker wanted Doug to shoot his lion with. So thats why the little gun was used.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

By the way Michael, Doug wants some 30 caliber non con for his 300 Jarrett. Thats how much he likes them.

Sam

30 CALIBER? What is that?


Sam, I am thinking for 450 Nitro---480 CEB BBW #13s in copper--matching copper HPs with .300 deep cavity, will work just like a brass noncon--but since you are double expert the end decision is on you. But that should solve shooting a buffalo 13 times! Of course assuming you shoot the front end and not the ass end! These things we talk about when we do the final 470 tests--when we receive those bullets?

M

Michael,

30 cal is for Baboons!

Yes the 450 needs a 480 grain BBW#13 both solid and non con.

I need to get on Corbin for those factory 470 rounds and then we can finish all the 470 stuff. I think I'm going to sell mine once we finish. Who needs a pop gun when you have a 577.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

30 cal is for Baboons!

Yes the 450 needs a 480 grain BBW#13 both solid and non con.

I need to get on Corbin for those factory 470 rounds and then we can finish all the 470 stuff. I think I'm going to sell mine once we finish. Who needs a pop gun when you have a 577.

Sam

OK, 30 for boons! I can go along with that. We can talk to Dan--brass.

I don't know why anyone needs or wants a double under 500 Nitro? But that's just me. I keep seeing those boys complain downstairs about how light the Sabatti 500 is--9.5 lbs or something--me I am thinking that's WAY TOO HEAVY! Talking about putting recoil reducers and such in them? 9.5 lbs--that's a tank! Chop a foot off those barrels and get that weight down some I say!

That 577 would not be worth two damned cents without that #13 in it!!!!! Next! #13 HP! Talk about smashing buffalo!!!!!!!

I also think that the #13 brass HP coming in 416 will be better than the brass HP Doug just used!

Of all the Noncons I have tested the 330 was the only one that lost stability at the end of penetration. None of the .500s, .510s, .458s react that way, all dead straight right to the end. Caliber thing I reckon?

M

Michael,

You are right about the 9.5 lb Sabbati. I think its about right for a 500. I weighed my 577 yesterday on a accurate scale to see just what it did weigh. It came up to 12 lbs. I still think its a little heavy at that. I took the recoil reducers out of it as soon as I got it. I hate those infernal sloshing heavy things. They weighed 1 lb 12 ozs. I'm going to see if I can get lighter barrels made for my 577 to get it to a better hunting weight.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

You are right about the 9.5 lb Sabbati. I think its about right for a 500. I weighed my 577 yesterday on a accurate scale to see just what it did weigh. It came up to 12 lbs. I still think its a little heavy at that. I took the recoil reducers out of it as soon as I got it. I hate those infernal sloshing heavy things. They weighed 1 lb 12 ozs. I'm going to see if I can get lighter barrels made for my 577 to get it to a better hunting weight.

Sam

Well, I see you have been around me too long---I have rubbed off on ya! Spoiled you I reckon!

Now things will never be the same!

HEH

Congratulations for your trophies .

Oscar.

A 30cal baboon solution for Doug’s 300 Jarrett might be to use the .500 caliber HP Spitzer shape…once it done and if it works as a proper Non-Con close-range and at 325yd distance… Then I could use it for varmint shooting out here in LOFAN.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,



Sam

Well, I see you have been around me too long---I have rubbed off on ya! Spoiled you I reckon!

Now things will never be the same!

HEH

[/QUOTE]

Michael,

If you stick around me you might learn something.

Good thing we didn't meet 20 years ago, we would both have 20mm cannons with 16 inch barrels.

Sam

Thanks Oscar!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
That 577 would not be worth two damned cents without that #13 in it!!!!! Next! #13 HP! Talk about smashing buffalo!!!!!!!

M

Well Michael, almost right, but only almost.. The old Kynoch and Woodies are useless. Right.
But the Barnes Banded Solid, 750 grs did quite well penetrationwise, 60 inches+ as far as I remember.. And that at a very sedate velocity.. And Sam also made a light 675 grs bullet that did penetrate good. Both are not having the #13 profile..
I think the 577 is a superior caliber. I can only imagine what a 750 grs BBW#13 will do at 2500-2600 fps penetrationwise. Shoot an ellie frontally and he will have his trunk out his ass...
ONLY drawback is weight.. I have not been around you yet, but still you have made some ideas in my head... Now all I am thinking about is 458 or 500 AR`s with 20-21" barrels and under 8 Ibs weight...
My 577 will have a quiet time in the future I guess. Most of the hunting will be with a light and short 458 or 500 I think...

Ulrik

Ulrik

Yes, you are correct--I forgot about the Barnes, and it did well no doubt. As did some of Sam's other bullets too. Cut me some slack, I forget things these days! The Barnes seemed a little hard on the barrel strain test for the doubles, not terrible as I recall--but nothing close to the copper #13. But your 577 is a bolt gun, yes?

I am pretty well settled on the CEB BBW #13 Solids and the North Fork Solids right now, so I am putting that out to pasture. I have ordered 416s, 458s, .474s, a new run of .500s, and very soon .510s will follow. I have had a request for 650 gr .585s #13s with matching #13 HPs as well.

Ed Hubel sent me some samples of one of his 585s a couple of weeks ago--I am looking to see if I can make that work in a Winchester M70 somehow, just have not had time to monkey with it yet. If I could get two down in the magazine, and it feed and function I would do one. With the thought of a CEBBBW #13 Hollow Point and matching solid--JHC, buffalo Hammer. 20 Inch barrel MAX--get the weight down to 8.5 lbs or so, shoot 650s and matching 600 gr HPs--might just do the trick. But have to get the damned thing on a Winchester or it's no go for me. Just not interested in anything else. And not interested in a single shot. Two down, feed and function! Might be fun!

Yes, I catch on after awhile. I have been telling Jeffe wack those barrels down, the ARs have plenty of juice, no use for anything over 20 inches, get the barrel contour down some also, 8 lbs is a good weight, but going to be tough to do with wood, and I like wood. AI stocks with the chassis is the ticket on that. The 500 MDMs come in at 8.25-8.75 depending on what type walnut, english is heavier than Claro and myrtle. I could also do easy with 20 inches or even 19 inches in the 500 MDM. Damned shame I got excited and my personal guns are 21 inches! Yes, I hate like hell to cut that NECG front barrel band off too! But my mainstay .500 is the 50 B&M with it's 18 inch barrels! It still shoots the 500 gr CEB BBW #13 at 2190 fps, and the new 460 BBW #13 HP at 2270 fps, so that will do I reckon!

M

@michael458,

just to let you know that your post FINALY arrived. Yes, we have winter here and about 1/2 foot of snow today.
Send the stuff to Brömel tomorrow and to the other guy´s we´ve talked about.
Will keep you informed.......

Best
Michael

Michael

That's great! Glad they made it without issue. One favor PLEASE. I sent several (I think) samples of 500 MDM brass, fired and some sized, all from 375 RUM brass. Can you send samples to Dieter and explain to him that all I want is straight Basic, exactly like the RUM brass--he needs not form or do anything, just basic with the head stamp to RUM specs! I know that might be a bit of a pain, just want him to know exactly how to proceed.

Thanks in advance

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I have ordered 416s, 458s, .474s, a new run of .500s, and very soon .510s will follow. I have had a request for 650 gr .585s #13s with matching #13 HPs as well.
M

Bullets are being run this week, and in fact right now. .500s done, .474s maybe done, 416s and 458s next this week, shipped I hope by the end of the week, shooting/testing next week.

Once the 4 band .474s have been approved by barrel strain, and no other issues, then it's off and running.

One little hitch on the "Ultra Bores"--CEB BBW #13s Solids, no issue--on the HPs Dan and I were talking this morning about those--so the first runs will be done in .585 so Sam and I can test the HPs in his 577--then we will have the scoop on that too. HPs in other calibers--zero issues. Just need to do some test work on .585 and .620 with the HPs.

I was hoping we test this week--but not--so if Sam and I can get things in, we test mid week or so, next week, get things finalized.

No, I have not forgot my buddy Paul and .620---just gotta get things right you know! No crying!

M

quote:

Of all the Noncons I have tested the 330 [in 416-TZ] was the only one that lost stability at the end of penetration. None of the .500s, .510s, .458s react that way, all dead straight right to the end. Caliber thing I reckon?

This would be a hunting revelation and revolution. So it really needs some repeatability testing to clear up. My physics training tells me that calibre is not an issue, at least not in the .4 inch//10 mm range. But I would be quite impressed to see this established. Go for it, but make it stick.

How much of an incentive is there to clear this up? Well, if I KNEW that 416 was an unstable calibre with solids, I wouldn't buy a 416 Ruger Alaskan at 7 pounds 14 ounces and 20" barrel. See, I'm learning to go light!

(Hey, I know it isn't a Winnie, and it isn't wood, but it's priced right. And as for Ruger, I'm not afraid: twenty plus years ago I owned a 44RM Ruger DA that fit my hand better than the S-W and enjoyed hot loads for breakfast, and a 338 WM Model77 Ruger rifle that outshot my Win M70 338 WM in those old 'Nosler' days of push-action Winnies. Ironically, my only 'controlled-action pre-64' was a 270 'coyote gun', as Elmer used to say to Jack.)

Now, the only other rifles available at sub-8 pounds and that price range is a 375 Ruger Alaskan. A what? Exactly!
So, Michael, save us from the clutches of sub-40 calibres, you can't want to push some of us off a 416 platform into the arms of those 375 wannabe sticks. Let's get this issue in the open light ASAP.

Tanzan

Hey buddy, no way I push you backwards into 375 la la land! You stay 416 old buddy! A good 65% meplat solid at 350 grs will right itself without a problem--even with slow twists. A good NonCon HP--so what if it looses stability at the end of penetration, animal is already dead long before the bullet even gets to that point! Take a look at that buff heart on 110! Since right now that 330 NonCon by lehigh is all I have in 416, it might be that bullet--next week I will have proper 416 325-330 BBW #13 HPs--might make a difference??? We will find out.

416 Ruger! Well, reckon you could do worse! At least you are headed in the right direction! Sure you don't want to look at my 18 inch 416 B&M at 6.5 lbs? HEH! That's my favorite 416. Shoots that 416 NonCon at 2500 fps, that's enough!

Stay away from sub-calibers, you know better! I am "REACHING" out, grab my hand, I will save all of you from the clutches of "LESS THAN .400", Just have Faith!



M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
-I can't see any reason for me to have shelves full of Swifts, Barnes, Woodleighs anymore! Maybe I will gather these up and have a Bullet Sale!


Michael

You can always send a box of Barnes .416 350grain out west for 'recycling', but by all means keep plenty for the 416 tests.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
-I can't see any reason for me to have shelves full of Swifts, Barnes, Woodleighs anymore! Maybe I will gather these up and have a Bullet Sale!


Michael

You can always send a box of Barnes .416 350grain out west for 'recycling', but by all means keep plenty for the 416 tests.

Tanz

I can tell you this--Midway is going to miss me a lot! About every couple of months I would have a $600-$1000 bullet order for them! That's done! At least until I learn something different than what I know now about the NonCons!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
No, I have not forgot my buddy Paul and .620---just gotta get things right you know! No crying!
M