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Colorado-Ranchers face charges after 34 elk shot dead
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Ranchers face charges after 34 elk shot dead


By AMY HAMILTON
The Daily Sentinel

Wednesday, April 02, 2008

Two Northwest Colorado ranchers, apparently frustrated by foraging elk eating hay intended for livestock, now face thousands of dollars in fines and multiple felony charges for allegedly killing 34 elk.

Rodney Heath Culverwell, 41, and Kenneth Wolgram, 43, have been charged with 18 and 16 felony counts, respectively, of willful destruction of wildlife. Each was charged additionally in Moffat County District Court on Tuesday with 18 and 16 respective misdemeanor counts of illegal possession of wildlife. If convicted, each felony count carries a sentence up to two years in prison and $100,000 fine.

Officers of the Colorado Division of Wildlife said they found the dead elk on property owned by Culverwell, listed as Rio Ro Mo Land Company, and at Wolgram’s property. Both are about 15 miles west of Craig.

DOW spokesman Randy Hampton said officers completed a six-week investigation into the shootings and made the charges.

“We don’t typically see that level of charges,†Hampton said. “This is a significant case.â€

According to a search warrant affidavit, officers began investigating Culverwell’s property Jan. 28 after two passersby notified the DOW they saw three dead elk — a bull, a cow and a calf — in the pasture.

Months earlier, on June 12, 2007, Culverwell had e-mailed a DOW officer about concerns of elk eating cattle feed and asking permission to kill the wildlife.

“If I have not heard from you within 2 weeks I will assume that you do not care and these matters must be taken care of by other means,†Culverwell wrote, according to the affidavit.

Officers said they found a stack of elk carcasses in Culverwell’s yard and noticed a cab full of spent, small-caliber, rifle casings in Culverwell’s vehicle after executing a search warrant Feb. 22.

The DOW said it began investigating Wolgram on Feb. 18 after finding elk carcasses near his property north of U.S. Highway 40. When questioned by wildlife officers, Wolgram denied shooting the animals, saying he didn’t own a shotgun, according to an affidavit obtained by The Craig Daily Press. Officers found shotgun shells, ammunition, 13 elk carcasses, two coyotes, 63 packages of noncommercial meat and several weapons, the Daily Press reported.

A brutal winter in Northwest Colorado, which prompted elk to venture into lower elevations to find food, has been an ongoing issue for ranchers, longtime rancher Darryl Steele said Wednesday. Steele, who runs 200 head of cattle west of Craig, near Maybell, said elk herds this winter have mixed in with the cattle, causing him significant losses of feed.

Northwest Colorado boasts the nation’s second-largest migratory elk herds, Hampton said, reaching 22,000 strong last year. Hampton said the DOW would like to reduce the Bears Ears herd size to between 11,000 and 15,000, and the agency issued thousands more hunting licenses since 2000 for that reason.

“The elk are coming in by the hundreds,†Steele said. “If a guy has only enough hay to winter his cows, then it’s a pretty tough case. As a rancher and a farmer you don’t know what to do. If you can’t get help, it’s much more frustrating.â€

Steele said he was subsidized by the DOW for 18 tons of hay, but he figures he lost 37 tons of feed to elk. Steele said he’s not so much concerned with elk eating the hay as elk pushing around cattle and causing them to lose their unborn calves.

Hampton said the ranchers who receive less than $100 in payments from hunters to hunt wildlife on their property can receive subsidies to mitigate problems caused by wildlife. The agency has established “baiting areas†or feed zones for elk in an attempt to minimize damages to ranchers’ feed stocks.

Hampton added it’s common for landowners in Northwest Colorado to charge thousands of dollars per hunter for rights to hunt on private property. He said he couldn’t say whether Wolgram or Culverwell charge for hunting rights, or whether they had any former wildlife violations.

Neither Wolgram nor Culverwell returned calls for comment Wednesday.

Hampton said ranchers can get help from the DOW with cracker shells or noisy rounds that are shot of out shotguns to scare off elk. The agency also offers fencing or reimburses ranchers with cash for their losses, if they qualify for the programs. He said these options were explained during a public meeting in Maybell last month.

“I can tell you the DOW has spent thousands and thousands of dollars in reimbursing ranchers for losses this winter,†Hampton said. “This year, because of the nature of winter, we’ve dealt with quite a few situations.â€

•

E-mail Amy Hamilton at ahamilton@gjds.com.


Kathi

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Posts: 9479 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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I wish I had hundreds of elk eating my cattle feed.

Alan


But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.-Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 511 | Location: Goliad, Texas | Registered: 06 November 2007Reply With Quote
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I thought the wolves had ate up all the elk.
 
Posts: 1287 | Registered: 11 January 2007Reply With Quote
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Typical rancher, they love the deer and elk when the checks and cash come from the hunters, but after that they hate them, I have seen it here several times
 
Posts: 1072 | Location: Pine Haven, Wyo | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Makes me sick. I hunt elk in that area on public ground. The problem with North West Colorado and elk is that is has become almost impossible to hunt the private land unless you go through an outfitter or are willing to pay huge money for the tags through the landowner themselves. The rancher now treat the game as a cash source and do not usually allow access for the common guy.

So, since nobody hunts the game to a degree to cause it to leave the ranches, the game bunches up and when we have a bad winter like this one, they begin to cause problems. Most of the ranchers that suffer severe depredations have brought the problem on themselves.

If a rancher allows free or cheap access, the mentioned $100, the state will compensate them for their losses. But, if the ranch refuses to allow access to the average hunter, the state will not pay for damages. Since these guys were so quick to take matters into their own hands, I'm willing to bet they were ranchers that charged big money.

Guess they never heard they could claim any damages as a tax loss and recover the funds that way. It isn't even tax deadline yet. they still had another week to go and they could have claimed every bale of hay they lost, and Uncle Sam would have paid the bill.

I'm glad I'm not going to be in the court standing next to these guys when they face the judge. The State of Colorado dosen't play around when it comesto their elk herds. Those herds bring more money into the state than the ski industry does.

Mac
 
Posts: 1638 | Location: Colorado by birth, Navy by choice | Registered: 04 February 2001Reply With Quote
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My outfitter buddy in Craig tells me the rancher get $4500.00 for a bull, cows are free.
 
Posts: 1072 | Location: Pine Haven, Wyo | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Steele said he was subsidized by the DOW for 18 tons of hay, but he figures he lost 37 tons of feed to elk.


So he looses 19 tons? Big stinkin deal! (and he is likely exaggerating to help his case) I do not know what he is feeding, but by my calculations, he can easily recoup that with one Elk hunt.

I say nail him to the wall. This kind of reckless destruction of wildlife can not be tollerated.
 
Posts: 6265 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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In defense of the rancher, he is only allotted so many tags. You don't know if he fills all his tags in a given year. If this guy has been in business for any time, it's spent money as he knows he'll have them all sold. That's money used towards paying the exorbitant taxes in Col.
I'm not trying to defend the guy. I think what they did was bs. You guys just need to remember that keeping his cattle going is his number one priority. Also remember that running down to the feed store to collect a few tons had to be a little cumbersome with 10 feet of snow all over.
 
Posts: 3456 | Location: Austin, TX | Registered: 17 January 2007Reply With Quote
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What the law should do now is make an example of these pricks and lock them up for a long time, and levy huge penalties against them, possibly even seizing their equipment and land. Maybe then landowners will allow more honest hard working guys to hunt and quit bitching. IMO, NO landowner should EVER be subsidized with federal dollars UNLESS said landowner can prove that he allows hunting on his property that doesn't include him pocketing a large sum of cash in the process.
 
Posts: 217 | Location: South Dakota | Registered: 29 October 2002Reply With Quote
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murftj

I'm with you screw this pair stickum in prison for the max and same with the $$$.
 
Posts: 450 | Location: CA. | Registered: 15 May 2006Reply With Quote
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I don't agree at all with how these two guys went about dealing with the Elk. But I am not in their shoe's; I'm not trying to make a living off Cattle, but I sure enjoy Beef and dairy products. I'll not throw a stone, but hope something worth while comes of it. Seems like any Federal program becomes a mess, but from the looks of things, at least one of them contacted the CO G&F with no results or even a reply. Our State will issue depredation permits for Deer if they are causing a problem. After an investigation is performed, permits may be issued and the meat can be donated to Hunters for the Hungry. Evidently some of the Elk went to Wild Critters that are Hungry???
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Posts: 6814 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 December 2006Reply With Quote
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I guess these ranchers have never heard of an Exclosuer,I've seen lots of them built by game depts & ranchers to keep unwanted ungulates from their winter feed.In Little Hills west of Meeker,CO there were exclosuers to keep elk and deer out ,the plants were so thick you couldn't see into or thru them. When I was a wildlife mgt biology student I saw exclosuers in AZ to keep cattle out & exclosuers to keep all grazers out they were dense with feed plants.CO game laws aren't enforced to the letter on hunters I saw elk hanging unskinned in the sun = rotten meat, CO game law said waste of meat is a felony but many were thrown in dumpsters at a packing house that were spoiled.CO should just issue a warning & let it go at that, that's all I would do if I was employed as a game cop I'm retired from LE!
 
Posts: 1116 | Registered: 27 April 2006Reply With Quote
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So out of a 22k strong, migratory herd, these guys can't shoot 34 elk that are eating their livelihood. They didn't do it for sport or make money off it.

Why in the world would you guys want them to serve prison time. That is ridiculous.

Perry
 
Posts: 2249 | Location: South Texas | Registered: 01 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Sounds like the same crap you hear from some ranchers around MT. The elk are "their" elk during the season when the rancher can get an outfitter or out-of-state hunter to fork over some amazingly large hunks of cash to shoot a bull, or even cow for that matter. BUT when the season is over, ho no, then it's the GD elk that are driving them into the poor house!

I'm not so sure that MT's or CO's laws(not that familiar with CO) regarding no public access equals no late season depredation hunts is all that effective in some cases. But, you have to draw the line somewhere on the commercialization of a public resource.

That said, I do miss the late season hunts on a couple of outfitted ranches around here, easiest cow elk hunts ever, hell if you were over 62 or needed help the guys even gutted and loaded the cows into your truck!
 
Posts: 763 | Location: Montana | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
IMO, NO landowner should EVER be subsidized with federal dollars UNLESS said landowner can prove that he allows hunting on his property that doesn't include him pocketing a large sum of cash in the process.


You sound like a welfare recipient. It's private property and what they get for hunting is none of your business. Buy your own damn ranch and let's see if you give away something you can sell.
 
Posts: 1557 | Location: Texas | Registered: 26 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Weren't they selling some of the meat.

Alan


But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.-Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 511 | Location: Goliad, Texas | Registered: 06 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Hey M16, FYI I do own my own land, and have never taken a handout from anyone. I'm sure you are some hipocritical big city type that couldn't tell the difference between corn and beans. Guys like you think nothing of dropping more money on this industry, which in the end, will kill it.
 
Posts: 217 | Location: South Dakota | Registered: 29 October 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefin:
In defense of the rancher, he is only allotted so many tags. You don't know if he fills all his tags in a given year.


BULLSHIT!!!!!!! In that area of Colorado, elk tags are issued over the counter. There are no quotas and the guy could have opened his ranch up to any number of public hunters. Lots of people would have come up to help thin the herd. He wanted to keep the elk on the land to use as a cash source. Not the quote by ELKMAN that the guy charged $4500 for a bull hunt.

quote:
So out of a 22k strong, migratory herd, these guys can't shoot 34 elk that are eating their livelihood. They didn't do it for sport or make money off it.


BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! The game didn't belong to them. The game belongs to the public. The guy was charging for elk hunts and then when the herd began to eat the hay, he decided they were to much trouble. By stating in an e-mail to the Colorado Division of Wildlife that they had 2 weeks to respond, they indicated they would do whatever they wanted. In the state of Colorado, ranchers with severe depredation can apply for special crop damage hunts and have a legal hunt outside of the normal seasons. They didn't have to shoot and waste the game. Every cow they shot would probably dropped a calf in the next month.

Nobody can rationaly condone this act, now matter where you are from, or how you were brought up. This was a pure and planned criminal act. They are no better than someone that pulls off a stick-up on a store owner!

Mac
 
Posts: 1638 | Location: Colorado by birth, Navy by choice | Registered: 04 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Who wants to open up your personal property to the general public. Have you seen our state parks and public rest stops. And whats the process for getting these out of season hunts. My bet would be by the time the state biologists and DOW got a plan together you'd have a years loss to contend with. I'm not saying I agree with there actions but to compare them to armed robbers is a joke and makes your inability for rational thought apparent. Hit him where it hurts...the pocket book. He'll learn his lesson and be better for it.

"what ya in fur...murder, rape, home invasion?"

"Worse, ELK KILLING!!!!"


Perry
 
Posts: 2249 | Location: South Texas | Registered: 01 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by M16:
You sound like a welfare recipient. It's private property and what they get for hunting is none of your business. Buy your own damn ranch and let's see if you give away something you can sell.


IF, God forbid, I lived in Texas, I suppose your statement would have some validity. THAT, however, is not the case, Thank God. Get a clue here, IT"S A PUBLIC RESORCE. IF in the back of your little mind you ever wonder why so many resident hunters in MT, WY, ID and CO think some Texans (and other non-residents) are COMPLETE A$$HOLES, I suggest that you examin your own "MONEY MAKES IT RIGHT ATTITUDE". Without the time, effort and committment of the residents, working on public lands, with public money, you wouldn't have any elk to hunt. Oh, except maybe behind some 200 acre high fence "ranch". The reason I got out of guiding is I got sick of self-rightious pricks with a fat bank roll and a sh*tty attitude like you .
 
Posts: 763 | Location: Montana | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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In Texas these men would not be tried for anything. Unless they were selling the meat. In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state. The elk will learn to live where they don't feel so much pressure.
 
Posts: 2826 | Location: Houston | Registered: 01 May 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
The game didn't belong to them. The game belongs to the public. The guy was charging for elk hunts and then when the herd began to eat the hay, he decided they were to much trouble.


Amen. Outfitters and high prices are going to end hunting faster than the Antis.

Typical outfitter mentalilty! Money, Money, Money.
 
Posts: 42341 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
In Texas these men would not be tried for anything. Unless they were selling the meat. In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage.


Not "entirely" the truth, under certain conditions Parks and wildlife can issue you "permission" to control animals.
 
Posts: 42341 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by smarterthanu:
In Texas these men would not be tried for anything. Unless they were selling the meat. In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state. The elk will learn to live where they don't feel so much pressure.


Here's a news flash DUMB ASS, this didn't happen in Texas, it happened in Colorado. And in Colorado, the law specifically states the PUBLIC and not the landowner owns the wildlife. I for one don't give a damn how they do things in Texas, California, New York etc... this was a violation of Colorado Wildlife Regulations and needs to be enforced at the full extent of the law.

quote:
I'm not saying I agree with there actions but to compare them to armed robbers is a joke and makes your inability for rational thought apparent.


Since when is stealing a public resource any less important than stealing private property? You as a citizen of the United States of America owns the wildlife in this country. Bottom line is a thief is a theif, no matter what they steal. It doesn't matter if it is a television set or an elk. It's all the same.
 
Posts: 1638 | Location: Colorado by birth, Navy by choice | Registered: 04 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by smarterthanu:
In Texas these men would not be tried for anything.


In TX, these guys would likely face more serious charges than in CO. Regardless of their state of residence, if you do not have the states permission to kill wild animals they have every right to prosecute you.

In Texas, it would be a felony to kill one Whitetail or Mule Deer doe, even if they were eating your cows hay.
 
Posts: 6265 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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In texas the state has allready given permission to kill game animals causing agricultural damage. You do not have to prove or ask anything, however I would suggest that you contact a game warden before hand.

Mac, I know where this occurred. Mature a little and lay off the shit talking. I was trying to show that other states believe in landowner and business rights over animals. Also the wildlife within our state also belongs to the state.

Last Mr. Reich you are incorrect in your assumptions of what is and is not a felony within this state. It is not a felony to poach a deer on your own property. The new fellony whitetail law here is restricted to poaching deer on properties you do not have permission to enter or hunt.
 
Posts: 2826 | Location: Houston | Registered: 01 May 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by MAC:

BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! The game didn't belong to them. The game belongs to the public. The guy was charging for elk hunts and then when the herd began to eat the hay, he decided they were to much trouble.

Mac


+1. That's the bottom line for me, too. Well said, Mac

KG


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Posts: 2897 | Location: Boston, MA | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Kamo Gari,

Whether the game belongs to the public doesn't solve this problem. Landowners and business owners have rights to further business without the "public" shutting them down. If this was not the case civil litigation would have the federal courts so tied up they couldn't get anything done. Besides that when the west was being settled immigrants would have never accepted grants or even property sales if they had no rights in deciding wildlife management on thier properties.
 
Posts: 2826 | Location: Houston | Registered: 01 May 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
IF, God forbid, I lived in Texas,


That makes two of us that are glad you're not here. We have enough welfare recipients.

quote:
IF in the back of your little mind you ever wonder why so many resident hunters in MT, WY, ID and CO think some Texans (and other non-residents) are COMPLETE A$$HOLES


No. Not really as I could care less. I kind of think it funny when you people try to keep us from hunting in your state by cutting non-resident tags. We can usually always circumvent this by buying a landowner tag. The tag you want for free.
 
Posts: 1557 | Location: Texas | Registered: 26 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Kamo Gari,

Whether the game belongs to the public doesn't solve this problem. Landowners and business owners have rights to further business without the "public" shutting them down.


I agree with your assertion that landowners have rights and some measure of protection needs to be afforded them for situations like this for them to be able to make a profit (I don't know what and how much), but be that as it may, I find the argument that killing 34 head of the public's elk herd because they are eating someone's grass is patently ridiculous. Surely, there are other options available. Maybe not easy or inexpensive ones, but ones that I think make a whole lot more sense to me.

Again and bottom line for *me*, from what I read, I think the killings were an abomination, and the guys yanking the triggers need to understand that the fact that they're land owners does not grant them the right to wantonly wipe out whatever animals that may wander onto their land, whether it's costing them a buck or not.

KG


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Posts: 2897 | Location: Boston, MA | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
So he looses 19 tons? Big stinkin deal! (and he is likely exaggerating to help his case) I do not know what he is feeding, but by my calculations, he can easily recoup that with one Elk hunt.

First off the rancher who got shorted by his figure 19 tons of hay isn't charging for elk hunts. At least not more than $100 for a trespass fee. Plus just because the elk are there now eating his hay doesn't mean that they are on his property during season. So if you think loosing roughly $2500 out of your own pocket isn't any big deal then send it to the rancher so he can buy hay. You are right his figuring might be inflated, but the point is he has been feeding elk and not his cattle the main source of his income.

The two ranchers who did kill the elk do need to be tried and punished. I just think that a lot of people are showing their ignorance by lumping all ranchers in whith these two. I know my father who still farms and ranches, has never charged or denied access to his property to anyone who has asked unless I was hunting that season.
 
Posts: 2242 | Registered: 09 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by M16:
quote:
IF, God forbid, I lived in Texas,


That makes two of us that are glad you're not here. We have enough welfare recipients.

Are you refering to fat ass ranchers recieving Federal support payments for growing nothing? Or maybe the illegals from Mexico that clean your home while you dodge Federal taxes on them?


Not really as I could care less. I kind of think it funny when you people try to keep us from hunting in your state by cutting non-resident tags. We can usually always circumvent this by buying a landowner tag. The tag you want for free.[/QUOTE]

Yep you're so ****ing smart and probably rich too! Wow, I better kiss your ***. Now to the point: Eventually narrcisistic pricks like you will ruin it for the really nice people who like to come to MT and hunt and fish. How? Regulations. Landowner tags are not a constitutional right, as the population of MT becomes more urbanized and the "landed gentry" loose their political power, those tags can "disappear". Won't happen? BS? Humm, ask the fishing outfitters on the Beaverhead if a few regulatory changes can't raise hell or just eliminate your business. The whole "preference tag" issue is getting to be a thorn in the side of residents. We've already started down that road with limitations on non-resident bow hunters in the Breaks and different start dates for some bird seasons. And lets not forget the 10% rule. That could easily become the 5% rule it's already the 0% rule for some tags in certain areas. Remember smart ass, us poor dumb, welfare types sitting around the porch picking our noses VOTE here, you don't. It is worth noting that the last gov. here was elected "in-spite-of" not because of the rual ranch vote.

I have sympathy for some ranchers, but I've been around to long to believe most of the crap they whine about.(Grew up on a ranch.) I know one guy that makes 3x what he makes ranching off his guide business. The state used to hold cow hunts on his ranch to keep the herd in check. Now, since he doesn't allow any access during the season, he is out of luck, but at least he's man enough not to whine about it. The elk are more profitable than the cattle ever were! Another rancher doesn't have paying hunters on during the last week of the season and opens some sections of his property to cow hunters during the season, yeah, it's a gimick but at least it's an improvement over the "no access" during the season policy.
 
Posts: 763 | Location: Montana | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by taylorce1:
First off the rancher who got shorted by his figure 19 tons of hay isn't charging for elk hunts. At least not more than $100 for a trespass fee. Plus just because the elk are there now eating his hay doesn't mean that they are on his property during season.


Well, that makes sense. I didn't think about that.

Well, ranching is tough. I loose more than $2500/year in feed to Mule Deer, so I feel his pain.

At least wee agree that he should be punished.
 
Posts: 6265 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by smarterthanu:
In texas the state has allready given permission to kill game animals causing agricultural damage. You do not have to prove or ask anything, however I would suggest that you contact a game warden before hand.

Last Mr. Reich you are incorrect in your assumptions of what is and is not a felony within this state. It is not a felony to poach a deer on your own property. The new fellony whitetail law here is restricted to poaching deer on properties you do not have permission to enter or hunt


I am sorry sir, but you are 100% wrong on both counts. I do not wish to argue with you, but I would like to set the record straight for the readers who may take your information as the truth.

You can not shoot deer simply because you believe they are eating your crops. There are channels to go through. One option presented to me was the MLD permits. This can be used to legally reduce the population. With MLD permits, one hunter can legally shoot all the deer he has permits for, but the laws of Texas must still be followed (Must utilize all meat, no night shooting etc.)

You can apply for a permit to shoot, but you can not simply shoot deer at will.

It is a misdemenor to hunt without landowner permission. Once you kill the deer, it becomes a felony.

It is a felony for anyone to illegally shoot a Whitetail or Mule Deer (out of season, or at night, over limit) etc. It does not matter if you are the landowner or if you are hunting without landowner consent.

The law does not differentiate based on where the felony occurred.
 
Posts: 6265 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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Mr. Reich,

You are %100 wrong in your assumptions. You can kill a deer on your property out of season with an artificial light, and no hunting license and you only will be charged with misdemeanor counts assuming you are not allready a felon. I know this because the state prosecuted two men for felonies last year on my property. The state could not prosecute them for felonies unless I signed a specific form stating I had not given them permission to hunt on my property. After the men were arrested I was asked to renounce the form by the families of the offenders so they would only be charged with misdemeanors. I think you may have been fed a line of bull from a gamewarden a budy. Second you can kill a deer on your property that is doing damage to your agriculural business or residence without obtaining a MLD permit. Use of MLD permits and State cooperative management have very little to do with the subject at hand. However you may be asked by the state to prove that the animal was damaging your agriculure business. I have known several ranchers and almost every commercial farmer I know engauges in killing problem animals that you or I would have to obtain special permition to kill. This continues to this day.
 
Posts: 2826 | Location: Houston | Registered: 01 May 2007Reply With Quote
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I know I am simple, but I think he might have been able to make a zero sum gain out of it anyway. How much does he get for a head of beef, charge that much for a fee to hunt the elk, provided there are enough of them during the season, as a tresspass fee. One less elk, one more sustaunable cow. I truely do not know what the current market price for cattle is, but I'm sure it isn't what the fines will be. I know for, say, $1500 plus the tag cost, I would gave come in to thin for him. Even charge a little more for a bull. But I also fully understand the issue of idiots that don't take care of the land once you allow them access.


Larry

"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 3942 | Location: Kansas USA | Registered: 04 February 2002Reply With Quote
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I recall my Great Grandmother telling me something about them not having to have a hunting license to kill deer on their own property for their own purposes. That would have been in the 1920's sometime.

#1 son was a guide on the 74 ranch and they were alloted a certain number of permits each for does for management purposes. All animals had to be accounted for and cold not be allowed to go to waste. The guides dressed and skinned the carcasses and one of the soup kitchens out of San Antonio picked them up.

There is no place in Texas where anyone can shoot deer indiscriminately on his own or anyone else's property legally and with impunity.

If a person is going to spread misinformation they should at least do so by erring on the side of caution.

I assure you that had the offense described occurred in Texas the TPW would taken an extremely dim view of the situation. This would not be acceptable in Texas just as it is not in Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, or anywhere else.

In Texas we have a serious depredation problem created by feral hogs. Hogs aren't game animals but I have heard that there are those who wish them to be. They are certainly misguided in their thinking on the issue. I'm sure that elk can be equally destructive in their relative environment. They are a game animal. I appears that the Game Departments of the various states have addressed the problem of depredation by wildlife on agricultural entities very well. There is a system of compensation set up to deal with it. I agree that it seems to be far from perfect but it is certainly open to review and input from ranchers beyond one phone call putting the Game Dept. on notice that after two weeks the hostages will be executed.

A lot of Texas put up with a lot of shit from folks in other states about what a bunch of assholes we are. Texas is big place, we simply have our share which seems like a lot to others. The vast majority, those you'll never see, are really good people. I would venture that many of you Montana boys, Wyoming boys and maybe even a few Colorado boys would find it quite comfortable at my campfire as long as you didn't mess with Texas.

Alan


But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.-Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 511 | Location: Goliad, Texas | Registered: 06 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Thank you Alan, that was a good reply.

smarterthanu, you got me! I did get my info from the game warden. I did call him and specifically ask him about these two issues. I am sure he was making it up since we are pals.

I should know better than to argue with someone who is smarterthanme.

Good day gentlemen.
 
Posts: 6265 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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In Tx you can kill deer out of season and over bag limits if they are damaging agricultural crops/resource you just can not do anything with them.

These men were not stealing they were protecting their investment...VERY different than an armed robber stealing a tv.

Perry
 
Posts: 2249 | Location: South Texas | Registered: 01 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by perry:
In Tx you can kill deer out of season and over bag limits if they are damaging agricultural crops/resource you just can not do anything with them. Perry


Just to be clear, I know this is possible and legal under certain circumstances, but you can not do it indiscriminately.

I have a Mule Deer problem. I would love to solve it like this, it would be very easy, but it is not legal! I have had to pusue other options.

Yes, I can apply for a permit, but I can not just shoot Mule Deer for eating feed/crops without securing prior approval.

If I do, it is a felony since Mule Deer does do not have a season in my county.

Now, I have been wrong before, but this seems pretty clear. I will eat my words if someone can prove me wrong.
 
Posts: 6265 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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