Sometimes I shake my head and wonder, and other times I just shake my head.

Alan

Mac,

I believe you may be mistaken. June does not fall in between the months of August and October which is when the ranchers made the complaint to DOW. Therefore hunting would not have fixed this problem.

Bottom line is the State of Colorado abandoned liability of these animals and left ranchers with no other choice but to take the law into thier own hands.

It also sounds like this hunter might have helped the hunters too, from your words. I imagine killing 34 females would have dispersed the herd off his property making hunting elsewhere better.

Nobody ever Said that Texas State Law has any bearing on COlorado State Law. I was just showing how some states who hever a better wildlife management agenda do a better jobn and Colorado might be able to change thier laws to improve wildlife and would free up more money to spend on improving your hunting instead of prosecuting working people. PERIOD. Damn straight they want thier bread buttered on both sides. THEY RUN BUSINESSES! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH OVERLY BUTTERED BREAD. Quit hating people that want to maximize profit. It is one of the foundation principals in this nation.

You need to get a grip....these guys had many, many options. There are lots of things I would like to do to maximize my profits, yet I do the legal ones.
The state of Colorado in no way abandoned liability for these Elk....That has to be one of your dumbest comments yet, quite an achievemennt really. Making a good living and a good profit is what this country was founded on, but that does not give someone the right to break the law and STEAL a public resource. I work for myself and hardly hate buisness people, I am one and so are many of my friends. The facts of this case are that these 2 slobs shot and left to lay 34 Elk....They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, PERIOD! Like I said before, keep your pay to hunt in Texas, I prefer walking out my back door into some of the millions of acres of public ground, all for the cost of my license.

I'm aware of when june is. The DOW will not issue permits while the cows still have dependant calves. THe calves are old enough to be self sustaining by AUG. It really doesn't matter when they made the complaint, they ddin't want the state to take any action because they issued a 2 week ultimatium. If they would have allowed cow hunters on their land during the open season, the elk would have been less likely to gather in numbers beyond normal control. The fact that the ranchers do not allow any dispersal of the herd is the single biggest cause of things like this happening. And to say they had no choice is simply false because they didn't give the state time to do anything. Since when can someone give a State Law Enforcement Agency a 2 week ultimatium before exercising what amounts to vigilante justice?

And who are you to say one state has a better way of doing things than other states? You probably don't spend more than a week a year in my state and probably only see a small part of it. There is a huge chunk of country between Houston TX and Craig CO.

And since Colorado has huge numbers of people from other states coming here to hunt every single year, I'd say we are doing something right. If you don't like the way we do thing in Colorado, then stay out of the state. But you must like it because you have hunted here several times by your own admission.

I personally don't like the way hunting is run in Texas, and yes, I have hunted there. I don't see myself hunting there again. So, instead of telling Texas how to do things, I'll stay away. That's probably the biggest difference between me and you. I don't want to change the way everybody does things. I'll let individual states make their own regulations based on the desires of their state's residents. You simply can not seem to do that.

You may very well know a lot about what happens in your little corner of the world, but you don't know anything about mine. I would not begin to try to tell Texas how to do things, but you sure are free with your advice to Colorado.

You are the only person in over 6 pages of posts that still condones the illegal mass killing of wildlife. As an individual that makes their living off wildlife, I find that ludicrous. I'm going to take a long shot here and guess that you probably have an arrangement with a bunch of private ranches when the successful hunters bring their trophies in. That could very well explain why you seem to have some sort of hard on against the hunting public and want everything in private hands.

What did the state of COlorado do then SKB. Sounds like the rancher provided a 2 week notice and Colorado did nothing to help him out. There is no proof these guys stole a public resource. They killed a public resource. Now I see why you want to hang these people. You are an anti-pay type person. Good thing you aren't biased towards free enterprise hunting.

Mac,

I support "sensible" mass culling of wildlife. There is a difference. Also two weeks is plenty of time to rectify the situation. Buerocracy is not an excuse. Who cares if it is calfing season? Shoot the calfs too. There is an obvious population problem. Any idea what those "huge" numbers of hunters are going to CO.? I know a lot about wildlife management in all corners of the world, not just Houston. I understand how you think your state makes laws but if you don't ballance law making between landowners, zealous government, and the uneducated masses you will have to deal with a lot more of these conflicts down the road. Heres a news flash. WHat are you going to do when those same uneducated masses vote not to have any hunting in Colorado. Will you be willing to be the one voice on six pages of internet forum or will you be silenced because that is the desires of the states residents.

Just exactly how do you expect the state to drop everything and reply to something like that in 2 weeks? It isn't like that is the only tasking a Colorado Division of Wildlife Game Warden has. And what proof do you have that the DOW didn't investigate? Maybe they found the ranchers were full of shit and were blowing the situation up? Do you have any proof? I haven't seen anything in writing that says the state failed to respond.

You still remain the only voice that condones illegal mass killing of wildlife. Not culling in a scientific or regulated manner, but killing in an illegal, un-sanctioned method.

Not a single person on this entire thread has taken any sort of position that condones or endorses your line of thought. Not one.

Do you know when you have kicked someone's butt? There own counterpatrs do not come to their aid. Not a single person that posts here, from any state has taken you position. Everyone of them has spoken out against things like this.

And if I ever lose my right to hunt,it will be because of positions like yours. Where the hunt is no longer for meat or tradition, but for economic gain. Here's a news flash, there are enough anti-hunters to vote all hunting out of existance if they just band together. Doesn't matter which state it is, they can vote it away. Even in TX.

Either hunters band together to condemn illegal activities or we will be destroyed from within. You really are DUMBERTHANSHIT if you are incapable of voicing public condemnation of illegal killing of wildlife.

So, tell us, what kind of economic windfall do you personally have from the privatization of hunting vice the public management? How many ranches steer all their successful hunters your way? You make a living off of wildlife, so you have a vested interest in having the management of game routed to something you can cash out on. Some kid taking a doe or cow elk with his grandfather on public land isn't going to put any money in your pocket, but some guy paying big money for a trophy buck will.

So, at leasr be honest and come out and say you don't care about the future of the tradition of hunting. It's quite obvious that the only way you look at the sport is from an economic standpoint and that makes you no better than a whore.

Not a single TEXAN has come out in favor of your statements, and that is how I know that you are beaten. Problem is, you are too dumb to realize it yourself.

quote:

And if I ever lose my right to hunt,it will be because of positions like yours. Where the hunt is no longer for meat or tradition, but for economic gain.

How did that policy work out for Africa? Thats what you are asking for.

You want to know what my position is on kids hunting. I am %100 pro child hunting. That is my future. I am not that short sighted. I dare you to find me one place where I stated kids shouldn't get to go hunt. But at the same time hunting is a privelege and not a right, and if a kid can't afford to hunt thats to bad. By the way I don't have one single contract with any big hunting ranches. Each person that brings something in brings it here under thier own choice. You say I should be quiet or I am beaten because I am the only voice on the side of reason here. The thing you have failed to notice is that I am the only voice with an accredited wildlife dgree here. Four years of wildlife education will beat the hell out of any six colorado hillbillies who can talk hick shit all day in any court of law. Do you think I make any short term money off of a rancher culling 34 head of elk??????? How do I cash out on that over a little kid getting to kill them. As for your 2 week of response problem, maybe you would like a 2 week respnse from the fire department when your house burns down, or you get robbed. Two weeks is exactly why you have this problem. Lazy government workers do not have to live up to performance expectations like private sector workers do. I have a huge long term widfall expectation if privatisation of hunting in COlorado occurrs. More kids will get to hunt, securing a future for the industry, and more grown ups will kill higher quality specimens they will want mounted. The cattle ranchers will also make more money and the price of beef will be more secure.Thay will make more money and pay more into thier tax base which will give children a better education and they won't grow up being bitter idiots talking uneducated trash on an internet forum. I think my theory is a lot longer sighted than the brightest thought you ever had Mac.

Liar, I think not!

Ain't that the way it always goes once the argument goes beyond this laddies intelligence level he starts calling names.

quote:

But at the same time hunting is a privelege and not a right, and if a kid can't afford to hunt thats to bad.

Guys this is the mentality you are dealing with here. As long as he gets his he doesn't care about anybody or any thing.

Vinny,

Man, I am far from bitter, I just like to draw this fellow out and pull his chain, Hell it ain't personal, it's fun.

I just want everyone here to know that all Texans don't think this way.

Don't change anything about your Western States hunting, just let me come enjoy it with you from time to time. I have hunted Idaho, Colorado and New Mexico and loved it all ( except the lack of oxygen ) I would hate to see it go the way of Texas, but we do have some great hunting here too.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Liar, I think not!

Ain't that the way it always goes once the argument goes beyond this laddies intelligence level he starts calling names.

quote:

But at the same time hunting is a privelege and not a right, and if a kid can't afford to hunt thats to bad.

Guys this is the mentality you are dealing with here. As long as he gets his he doesn't care about anybody or any thing.

Vinny,

Man, I am far from bitter, I just like to draw this fellow out and pull his chain, Hell it ain't personal, it's fun.

I just want everyone here to know that all Texans don't think this way.

Don't change anything about your Western States hunting, just let me come enjoy it with you from time to time. I have hunted Idaho, Colorado and New Mexico and loved it all ( except the lack of oxygen ) I would hate to see it go the way of Texas, but we do have some great hunting here too.

JTEX,

Glad someone besides me is calling old DUMBERTHANSHIT out.

By the way, I know that not all Texans are this way. I know a bunch of you guys and for the most part they are great. But, you do have guys like old DUMBERTHANSHIT that just can't get it through their heads that the whole world will not immediately march to their drum.

Like you said, all this guy wants is his and the hell with the kids. AFter all, by his own admission he would rather see 1 tag sold for $1500 to a rich guy than see 15 kids hunt for $100 each. It is a sad day for hunting if that mentality keeps going, too bad if the kids can't afford it. Guess that is why the #'s of young hunters keeps declining. The hell with the youth and the future, let me do everything I want now.

Gent's, this is a perfect example of what we on active duty in the military call a "SORRY BASTARD".

Wrong JTEX, people sart telling irrelevent lies when they have been whipped.

Mac,

Quote me correctly. I said I would rather sell 1 buck tag for $1500 than 5 tags for $150. That is a profit difference of $750 for the state to invest in proper managemnt of thier wildlife. Which would mean more hunting opportunities for everyone in the future. You worry about 15 kids getting to kill a deer this year while I want to make sure 150 kids get to shoot deer in a couple of years.

Now here is the funny part Mac. The only Federaly certified State Wildlife Crime Lab is in the state of Texas. Paid for by Texas' private hunting. So when our state wants to nail people who poach 34 animals we don't have to pay out to another crime lab for thier services. Most likely The state of Colorado will have to pay money to either Texas or the FBI to process thier criminal evidence in this elk case. Consequently that will leave less money to promote opportunities in your state for children to hunt. Are you starting to understand how private investment in wildlife has made our states Wildlife stronger? Or are you still to blinded by anger and stupidity?

Texas thinks decades ahead for the future of strong wildlife and lots of hunting for all ages, and provides it. Colorado whines about not having enough time to fix thier problems or blames it on all those evil Texans in thier hunting woods. Keep whining and all you will see are more Texans, because we are going to make more and more money off of wildlife that lets us take more kids than Colorado hunting. Sounds like the future of hunting is Texas children. Maybe Colorado kids can get into basket weaving since they won't care about hunting in the future.

By the way Mac, most management plans make way for massive amounts of doe culling which kids can get in on. That brings me back to the same question I asked outdoor writer. How many Doe tags did Colorado issue last year? I took a kid here to cull doe last year. All he had to do was pay for his ammo. He whacked three doe in a dya and had a blast. Kids here get to kill a practicly endless supply of deer and you are fighting tooth and nail for a kid to get one tag.

quote:

Now here is the funny part Mac. The only Federaly certified State Wildlife Crime Lab is in the state of Texas. Paid for by Texas' private hunting.

Guess this one run by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service in Ashland, OR doesn't count huh? http://www.lab.fws.gov/contact.html

Just one more instance to prove you are DUMBERTHANSHIT.

quote:

Now here is the funny part Mac. The only Federaly certified State Wildlife Crime Lab is in the state of Texas. Paid for by Texas' private hunting.


Guess this one run by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service in Ashland, OR doesn't count huh? http://www.lab.fws.gov/contact.html

Just one more instance to prove you are DUMBERTHANSHIT.

Nope Mac,
Just more evidence that you are too stupid to read. Or maybe you are to stupid to know the difference between STATE an FEDERAl government.

Nonetheless its more dollars that Colorado DOW has to send out of state and rob more little kids out of opportunities to hunt.

smarterthanu,

You wanted law stated. You got it buddy!

Taken from the following website address.


SUBCHAPTER H. PERMITS TO CONTROL WILDLIFE PROTECTED BY THIS CODE


§ 43.151. THREATS TO PUBLIC SAFETY OR DAMAGE BY
WILDLIFE. (a) A person who has evidence clearly showing that
wildlife protected by this code is causing serious damage to
agricultural, horticultural, or aquicultural interests or other
property, or is a threat to public safety, and who desires to kill
the protected wildlife shall give written notice of the facts to the
county judge of the county or to the mayor of the municipality in
which the damage or threat occurs.
(b) The county judge or mayor, on receiving the notice,
shall immediately cause a substantial copy of the notice to be
posted in the county courthouse or city hall, as applicable, and
shall notify the department of the location of the property where
the damage or threat is occurring, the type of damage or nature of
the threat, and the name of the applicant.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987; Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 968, § 38, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.


§ 43.152. DEPARTMENT INSPECTION. On receiving notice
from a county judge or mayor, the department shall inspect the
property and determine if damage or a threat to public safety is
occurring as alleged in the notice. If the damage or threat is
occurring, the department shall make recommendations to the person
as are feasible and appropriate for controlling the damage or
threat.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987; Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 968, § 39, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.


§ 43.153. APPLICATION FOR PERMIT. (a) A person who has
evidence of damage by depredation or threat to public safety may
file with the department an application for a permit to kill the
protected wildlife.
(b) The application must be in writing and be sworn to by the
applicant and must contain:
(1) a statement of facts relating to the damage or
threat; and
(2) an agreement by the applicant to comply with the
provisions of this subchapter relating to the disposition of the
protected wildlife.
(c) The application must be accompanied by:
(1) a statement signed by the employee of the
department who made the investigation that damage is being done or
that a threat exists and control measures have been recommended;
(2) a statement by the applicant that he has taken all
measures recommended by the department for the prevention of the
damage or threat; and
(3) a certification of the county judge that the
application is true.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987.


§ 43.154. PERMIT. (a) On receipt of an application,
the department may issue a permit for the killing of wildlife
without regard to the closed season, bag limit, or means and
methods.
(b) The department shall deliver the permit, if issued, to
the county judge or mayor that sent the notice of damage or threat.
The permit may not be delivered earlier than 24 hours after the
notice from the county judge or mayor was received by the
department.
(c) A permit must specify:
(1) the period of time during which it is valid;
(2) the area in which it applies;
(3) the kind of wildlife authorized to be killed; and
(4) the persons permitted to kill the noxious
wildlife.
(d) No state permit is required to authorize a person to
kill migratory birds protected by the Federal Migratory Bird Treaty
Act if the person has obtained a permit authorizing that activity
from the United States Department of the Interior or the United
States Department of Agriculture.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987; Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1256, § 34, eff. Sept. 1, 1997;
Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 968, § 40, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.


§ 43.155. DISPOSITION OF WILDLIFE. (a) The holder of a
permit issued under this subchapter who kills wildlife under the
authority of the permit shall give the location of the wildlife
carcass to the game warden or other department employee assigned to
the area covered by the permit.
(b) The game warden or other department employee notified
shall dispose of the carcass by donating it to a charitable
institution, a hospital, a needy person, any other appropriate
recipient, or as directed by the court.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987.


§ 43.156. CANCELLATION OF PERMIT. The department may
cancel a permit if the permit does not accomplish its intended
purposes.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 267, art. 1, § 48, eff.
Sept. 1, 1985; Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987.


§ 43.157. VIOLATIONS; PENALTY. (a) No permittee may
fail to notify a game warden or other department employee of the
killing of wildlife as required by Section 43.155 of this code.
(b) No permittee may dispose of a wildlife carcass killed
under the permit or allow the wildlife to be disposed of except as
allowed under Section 43.155 of this code.
(c) No permittee may violate a term or condition of the
permit.
(d) A person who violates this section commits an offense
that is a Class B Parks and Wildlife Code misdemeanor.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.
Amended by Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 267, art. 3, § 25, eff.
Sept. 1, 1985; Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 610, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
1987.


§ 43.158. LANDOWNER PERMIT EXEMPTION. Nothing in this
subchapter prevents a landowner or the landowner's agent or lessee
from taking depredating feral hogs on the landowner's land without
having acquired a permit under this subchapter.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
In texas the state has allready given permission to kill game animals causing agricultural damage. You do not have to prove or ask anything, however I would suggest that you contact a game warden before hand.

I suggest you thoroughly read sections 43.151-43.154.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state.

Now, I suggest you read section 43.155. You might want to rethink your stance on this as well.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
The other reason I posted it was to show the TP&W was not informed correctly when they stated they issue the permits because it clearly stated there the permits are issued by a state judge.

I think you struck out on this one too. The landowner starts the ball rolling by notifying the county judge or mayor of the problem and then the judge or mayor contacts the department who then issues the permit after an investigation is conducted and the permit is warranted. Might want to reread sections 43.151-43.154.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
I stated a fact not an opinion, and another poster proved it for me by quoting directly out of the state wildlife handbook. If you can't see my factual opinion was correct then you are blind.

Just exactly who is blind here? Could it possibly be you?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Graybird,

Cite some law. Just one law . Not what some lady on a phone says.

Have I cited enough laws for you yet? If not, you might want to consider talking to Major L. David Sinclair, Chief of Fisheries and Wildlife Enforcement, as I have. If you would like, I can send you his email address and I even have his office number and fax number to boot! I can assure you he responses to email very quickly.

I was also told I can anonymously report any illegal hunting activity to Operation Game Thief at 1-800-792-GAME. Do I need to make a call?

Now, you might want to ask yourself why I got in the middle of this. I did because you were making outlandish, astronomical, exorbitant and excessive claims about the illegal killing of game animals, which could have potentially gotten someone into deep trouble. I certainly hope you have learned something here. It basically boils down to what you have stated yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Have a little bit more open mind that you might not know what the hell your talking about and then you might not look so foolish.

You might want to try swallowing your shallow pride and take a bit of your own advice.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
You say I should be quiet or I am beaten because I am the only voice on the side of reason here. The thing you have failed to notice is that I am the only voice with an accredited wildlife dgree here. Four years of wildlife education will beat the hell out of any six colorado hillbillies who can talk hick shit all day in any court of law.

Where did you get your degree? Must not be from a very credible university! Maybe you slept through a few classes or were too hung over to attend class? I don't know, but based upon the garbage and so called facts you have spilled on this topic, I would say your diploma isn't worth the paper it is on.

Looks like this Okie, who now lives in Colorado, can talk hick shit all day and is certainly smarterthanu!! And, I don't even have a wildlife degree!!

Cheers,

I can hardly contain myself waiting for the response! I suppose some of those Laws were enacted since 1915?

Alan

sounds like a bunch of women fussing over who has the prettiest dress.never seen a post go so off point.the money grubbing sobs slaughtered a bunch of elk cause they wern't smart enough to put up a fence that would keep them out of the hay stack.hope they get what they deserve,heafty fines and loss of hunting privledges on their OWN land!
it happened here in wyo. several yrs ago,nice guy ,great ranch,but when he gut shot 9 head cause he was tired of chasing them out of the stack yard.... i would of loaned them a new rope.no reasoning, no excuse,no way!!
get back on point, get off the personal jabs and get on with it, you "corndicks" are wasting valuable internet ink.

I would venture a guess, ravenr, that there is someone in this world that is

"smarterthanu"


Alan

Dang, I forgot about this one:

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Mr. Graybird,

I finally found it. State law is hard to read and search through.

Naw, pretty clear to me, or could it potentially be that you lack the ability and capacity to comprehend and retain such simple statements?

Cheers,

From Wikipedia:

Culling : in the United States, game animals such as elk may be informally culled if they begin to excessively eat winter food set out for domestic cattle. In such instances the rancher will inform hunters that they may "hunt the haystack" on his property in order to thin the local herd to levels that do not excessively impact the winter feed supplies. Other instances include issuance of extra hunting licenses or additional "special seasons"by state fish and game agencies during harsh winters or overpopulation ].

Poaching: Is the illegal hunting, fishing or harvesting of wild plants or animals. It may be illegal because:

The game or fish is not in season, usually the breeding season is declared as the closed season when wildlife species are protected by law.
The poacher does not possess a license.
The poacher is illegally selling the animal or animal parts or plant for a profit.
The animal is being hunted outside of legal hours.
The hunter used an illegal weapon for that animal.

Based on the above, the ranchers in question were not involved in a culling operation, but were poaching. So, I have a pretty simple question for old DUMBERTHANSHIT and it is so simple that it only requires a yes or no answer:

Do you condone poaching?

Let's see you can just answer this question. You and I will never agree on private vs public management of wildlife. We will never agree on commersialization of hunting, so let's get back to the original topic. Either you condemn poaching or you condone it. Which one is it?

Thats what I'm talking about Graybird! Now you actually are debating. Now wouldn't this have been better than 6 pages of talking trash. Is there a time limit given for the department to act? There is a time restriction that actually states they are not allowed to act within 24 hrs of the posting? Which I find odd for cases that involve public safety.

By the way Graybird, I never stated I was a lawyer. I stated that I was a wildlife biologist. The talking "Hick shit" was a comment about argueing wildlife management. So keep that one little fact straight OKIE. By the way what are you doing in COlorado I thought only Texans were invading there?

Now for another statement. If in Texas it takes more than Two weeks for the state to issue a permit while the damage is being done, I have no problem with any landowner mowing down 34 deer to save his business or even in the interest of public safety, plus the state should be heald fully liable for the destruction caused by the public's property. This doesn't change my stance that private industry makes better choices to improve wildlife and hunting opportunities in the long run and the 34 elk getting flopped probably helped the elk herd and the rancher.

I condone poaching when the state has failed to manage its property and thier problem becomes my costly problem. Just like I condone murder when the states failure to control crime has put a monkey in my house taking my TV. I condone a lot of crime when government fails to do its job. Sometimes you gotta put your ass on the line to force change.

I have never had any problem answering questions on this forum Mac. That has been your and Outdoor Writer's problem.

By the way Mac we allready showed the problem occurred outside of a hunting season so how is it possible for hunters to cull these animals. Culling is not a seasonal practice. Culling is based on necessity regaurdles of time.

How about a landowner taking care of his property....say building a fence? Its not the states problem....its the landowners, and a very big one too! Those boys should be convicted felons, maybe give them cork guns. I'll put my ass on the line right now....heres my prediction....these 2 assholes end up very very sorry and a bit poorer too.

I wouldn't have any problem with the landowners building a fence over shooting the elk, but the state has to pay the bill for it.

quote:

Here in TX most of the landowners here horror stories of people who get hurt on thier ranch and end up getting the shit sued out of them. I have even heard of this happening when people have tresspassed illegaly. I don't know if these lawsuits can and do take place, but I do know that these are actual fears of landowners. They are scared to death of lawyers and sue happy hunters.

Texas really needs to get on the ball with their laws.(sarcasm) In NE the landowner can't be sued if he/she lets someone on for free.

quote:

I understand how you think your state makes laws but if you don't ballance law making between landowners, zealous government, and the uneducated masses you will have to deal with a lot more of these conflicts down the road.

Boy you really know how to frame and argument.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
I condone poaching when the state has failed to manage its property and thier problem becomes my costly problem.

This is exactly my point, THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. It is not Texas's problem. It is an incident that happened in Colorado. It does not have a single effect on you what so ever. The law in Colorado was violated by these 2 poachers. The state has issued citations in accordance with state law. What the law is in another state is not relevant.

You keep coming back to the way it is done in Texas and the way YOU want to se it done in other states. But for this entire posting, those issues are not important to the topic.

And for the record, POACHING is always a crime. You can not quantify it by choosing when you will condone it. Illegal is illegal.

For this entire post you have shown a complete refusal to let another state handle things within their laws. You want to see them change to your way of doing business. Not everyone wants to do things your way. If I wanted to do things the way they do them in TX, I would move there. But I don't.

And for the recod, most of your questions have been addressed. Some have been ignored ecause they have nothing to do with the flow of conversation. For instance, if you want to know how many deer tags Colorado issues, go to the DOW website and look at the hunt re-caps. The info is there, but I ain't your secretary. You have also left lots of questions unanswered when they are not convenient to your line of argument.

Opinions you have aplenty, facts and answers are fleeting.

Instead of me and OUTDOOR Writer having to supply the facts to prove us right, why don't you do the research and prove us wrong? Just like GRAYBIRD had to look ver the laws of TX to find proof. You don't supply any proof, just your own opinion.

You claim to be an expert, but how do we know that? How do you know what education anybody else has? Just because they don't list a degree, doesn't mean some of them don't have one.

How do you know the 2 ranchers in question even asked for help from the DOW? Just because a newspaper said an e-mail was sent, doesn't mean it actually was. How do you know the Colo DOW didn't look into it and find the claims unfounded? All of this info will come into light when the case goes to trial. Bottom line is they were cited for poaching, and that is illegal in every state in the union, even TX.

So, by your admission, the laws for things like poaching are only good when it is convienient for you.

quote:

By the way Mac we allready showed the problem occurred outside of a hunting season so how is it possible for hunters to cull these animals

Read the above cited definition of culling. The state could have and most likely would have issued special permits. It has been done before. The ranchers did not wait to handle things in accordance with state law. They tok matters into their own hands. A little patience on their part would have solved the entire problem.

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I wouldn't have any problem with the landowners building a fence over shooting the elk, but the state has to pay the bill for it.

Not in Colorado. Again, you are talking about regulations in TX. The state of Colorado is not responsible for building fences to keep game out of a ranchers property. The landowner is. That is why they have things like tax deductions. It is a business expense and the State of Colorado does not pay for it. The rancher could have taken some of that $80,000 he made in leasing fees and put a fence up, but he instead chose to break the law. End of story.

I think the landowners should build their own fences, after all, it has been that way here since long before statehood. I don't see why we should change it to molly coddle a bunch of wealthy criminals.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Thats what I'm talking about Graybird! Now you actually are debating. Now wouldn't this have been better than 6 pages of talking trash.

I never spoke a word of trash. I asked you and Perry to show me the laws were a landowner has the right to shoot deer at free will. I believe the trash was from your mouth. Don't sit there and try to twist this around on me you idiot. All the shit you were talking and the amount of Texas law you knew what absolutely 100% nothing! Not one thing in your previous posts were factual.

My great grandfather used to say a similar statement. "He would argue with a fence post, if it would argue back."

I think I now know, and have met via this thread, to whom my great grandfather was refering to.

quote:

I never spoke a word of trash

quote:

Just exactly who is blind here? Could it possibly be you?

Don't be so self-righteous graybird> You took no special high road here. I didn't argue with a post. I argued with a group of people, and six pages later one little bit of good finally came out of it. By the way there were plenty of things I posted witch were factual. Be thankful someone got you to look for the truth.

Mac,

Now who wants thier cake and eat it too? You want to claim these animals for you and the public but you don't care about liability when you and the public fail to manage them correctly. If your dog jumps into your neighbors yard and eats a steak off his grill you are liable. Why should it be any different for your elk that are eating another mans property? So let restate since I allready know this is not a Texas problem but for some reason you keep hanging up on that point, I condone poaching when the "public" has failed to properly manage thier resource and it infringes upon people's rights to do business, which is what occurred in COLORADO. If you don't take care of your "public" property I hope every one of "your" elk ends up rotting the minute they start costing someone thier livelyhood. Can I get any clearer in my answer? Would you like any more questions? Did you figure out the difference between state and federal offices yet? Did you learn how to read the things you post yet? Did you ever figure out how many Doe the State of Colorado allows taken each year yet? By the way it sounds like those elk ate up his $80,000 bucks he made. Do you really think a rancher is going to kill one resource that makes him $80,000, he diidn't learn the resource is costing him more than the $80,000. Do you think he will get paid $80,000 next year if his elk herd is worse than it was the year before? Can you answer that question since I have been kind enough to answer your's.

By the way Mac You and Outdoor Writer, never answered my questions. And if management was as important to you as you think you would be on the website for DOW and find out how many antlerless deer the state killed. Outdoor writer presented ZERO facts that prove Colorado public land is Managed as well as Texas Private land. In Fact you presented facts that showed once every 22 years you can put a deer in your top 10 list. That has no relevence to quality of management. I forgot outdoor writer did answer my question about over the counter mule deer tags, which someone claimed unlimited amount of Texans were showing up in Colorado and taking advantage of because of thier cheapness which we now know was false. Together yall showed that your idea of management is feeding overpopulated animals, hating Texan hunters, and hating free enterprise. Thats about it. As for the e-mail to the DOW that can be proven and I am assuming the newspaper did that before printing it. They are liable if they did not. Just ask Dan Rather he is out of a job now for that reason. I also think the DOW would be able to prove and give the newspaper testimony as to whether they got off thier lazy government asses and actually went and assesed this situation.

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Fact you presented facts that showed once every 22 years you can put a deer in your top 10 list

Here's a news flash DUMB ASS, the top 10 isn't Colorado's top 10, it is the TOP 10 for every state. It is the ALL TIME TOP 10. There are 4 world record Mule Deer listed in Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young. 2 typicals and 2 non-typicals. Colorado hold 3 out of those 4 spots.

If Colorado can't manage game, they why do you hunt there? Why does thousands upon thousands of people from TX come up there every season? If the game dept is doing that bad, why does Colorado produce more record book mulies than all the other states combined. If the management is that bad, why does the state have the world's biggest elk population? If the management is that, why does it produce the largest elk kill every single year? Is the state perfect? No. But it sure does a good job with the management of 8 major native big game species. Not imports, not manipulated herds, not artificially fed herds. native game.

I am not concerned with the number of deer tags the state issues. I always get a tag and so does everyone I know. It is you that are concerned with the way the state manages game, not me. If the numbers interest you that much, look them up. I for one don't care how many deer tags TX issues. It isn't important to me. I am not the one trying to tell another state how to do things.

Your laws down there are not relevant to this poaching case. Why do you seem unable to grasp that extremely simple fact?

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Thats what I'm talking about Graybird! Now you actually are debating.

No he's not!!!! He just slammed the door on your ridiculous "opinions".



And now we know your position on poaching too!

Keep on spouting off so we can find more reasons to disregard your credibility.

Poachers ARE stealing game from the people of the state! Period! End of argument.

And the hypocrisy to charge $80,000 a year to hunt Elk on their property and then after the season when the same Elk are not worth anything to them to KILL (steal) them is just plain criminal.

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AFter all, by his own admission he would rather see 1 tag sold for $1500 to a rich guy than see 15 kids hunt for $100 each.

Yep that's what he said. He just wants the extra money used for "game management". Read this to mean that he wants bigger Antlers so that the cost can increase even more to exclude even more people.

By smarterthannoneatall

quote:

But at the same time hunting is a privelege and not a right, and if a kid can't afford to hunt thats to bad.

His exact words. You know where he stands. Only the Elite, only those of the priveledged class. I think that's what he wants for the future of hunting.

He called me a socialist, I guess our founding fathers were also socialists then.

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AFter all, by his own admission he would rather see 1 tag sold for $1500 to a rich guy than see 15 kids hunt for $100 each.


Yep that's what he said. He just wants the extra money used for "game management". Read this to mean that he wants bigger Antlers so that the cost can increase even more to exclude even more people.

By smarterthannoneatall

quote:
But at the same time hunting is a privelege and not a right, and if a kid can't afford to hunt thats to bad.


His exact words. You know where he stands. Only the Elite, only those of the priveledged class. I think that's what he wants for the future of hunting.

He called me a socialist, I guess our founding fathers were also socialists then.

Obviously JTEX you have joined the ranks of Mac who is too stupid to read. I never did say that. I have allready corrected mac on this issue, but I guess that doesn't matter to a liar.
Not all poaching is stealling from the Public. Please look up the definition of stealing. If the animal lays unused and rotting no one has been stolen from.
That extra money for game management will give us healthier and more game herds that provide more hunting opportunities for those kids. You are getting as short sighted as Mac also. The founding fathers of this country never stated hunting to be a right. If they did it would be in your Constitution. Maybe you think driving, watching TV, and getting laid are rights also.

Now Mac we have allready discussed this and you got your ass handed to you once but apparently you want to do it again. The list that you said proved me wrong posted by outdoor writer was not all time for all states and nations. It was a specific top ten non-typical list for COLORADO. Once again would you care to post the dates of those three animals in the top 4. Dates are important to measure managemnt success, or lack there of, whether you believe it or not.

By the way JTEX I never knew you were part of the "Elite".

JTEX,

If the ranchers truely damaged the elk herd do you think he will get $80,000 next year for lease money? I don't know why I ask questions. Very few people here, including you, have the balls to answer.

JTEX,

Here is another question you won't answer. A young child plays in your yard, when you notice a coyote displaying aggressive rabid like behavior corners the child and might attack. Do you poach the coyote?

quote:

Now Mac we have allready discussed this and you got your ass handed to you once but apparently you want to do it again. The list that you said proved me wrong posted by outdoor writer was not all time for all states and nations. It was a specific top ten non-typical list for COLORADO. Once again would you care to post the dates of those three animals in the top 4. Dates are important to measure managemnt success, or lack there of, whether you believe it or not.

Guess you are too dumb to read. The list I provides was taken from the Boone and Crockett Record book. What I said was that I was only referencing the top 20 entries for each species. Those I listed were taken from Colorado. Why don't you take a look at the record book. You claim to be a taxidermist. I have never seen a taxidermist shop without a record book.

For your information, the current Boone and Crockett world record typical mule deer is from Colorado. The Current Typical Pope and Young world record mule deer is from Colorado. The current Non-Typical Pope and Young world record mule deer is from Colorado. These are THE WORLD RECORDS!!!!!! Not just taken from some arbitrary state's list, but the ALL TIME RECORD BOOKS. Do you mean to tell me that you do not even know how to look up the relevant standing of a trophy animal?

You claimed earlier that you posted a Top ten anywhere list which you never did. I read just fine. I think your demensia(sp?)is acting up. You are the one that fails to read. Not only do you fail to read you fail to remember the crap you post. And once again I have to point out that the last entry with all yalls spectacular management was 1986. 22 years of NOTHING. Maybe that adds to more hunting pleasure you get to give your valued child hunters. I can see you huddled around the hunting fire with your grandkids and explaining to them how they don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of taking a record muley because your generation plastered the vast majority of them in the 60's 70's and a few in the 80's, and now we are too short sighted to know we have to manage the entire herd properly to get the big deer to return in masses. "Enjoy that forky son cause thats as good as my generation can make it".

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Thats what I'm talking about Graybird! Now you actually are debating. Now wouldn't this have been better than 6 pages of talking trash. Is there a time limit given for the department to act? There is a time restriction that actually states they are not allowed to act within 24 hrs of the posting? Which I find odd for cases that involve public safety.

By the way Graybird, I never stated I was a lawyer. I stated that I was a wildlife biologist. The talking "Hick shit" was a comment about argueing wildlife management. So keep that one little fact straight OKIE. By the way what are you doing in COlorado I thought only Texans were invading there?

Now for another statement. If in Texas it takes more than Two weeks for the state to issue a permit while the damage is being done, I have no problem with any landowner mowing down 34 deer to save his business or even in the interest of public safety, plus the state should be heald fully liable for the destruction caused by the public's property. This doesn't change my stance that private industry makes better choices to improve wildlife and hunting opportunities in the long run and the 34 elk getting flopped probably helped the elk herd and the rancher.

OK, "smarter"...

Just because that is how you think in Texas doesn't make it right or even appealing to anyone anywhere else.

There are enough biologists on this board who also have degrees who would appreciate it if you would stop slandering the profession by opening your mouth.