US1,

This is a capitolist society and money talks. Don't be bitter just move to one of those other countries where apperently hunting is still free. Texas didn't ruin your hunting. Population growth changed hunting. As demand grows so did possible revenue streams for hunters. It was a natural evolution in economics. Also Texas still has some great public land opportunities if you want to look into them.

Unfortunatly CO. has been californicated over the last 25 yr. and has filled up with left leaning tree huggers who believe the state should own everything. Fine and dandy then, the state owns wildlife, as it should.
If my cattle cause damage to any property, whether it be someones vehicle, feed, crops whatever, I am responsible for ALL, 100%, of damages as well as cost of recovery and any coincidental cost. However in the case of the state, damage, and cost recovery is very limited, if at all. Why the double standard??? I have been in the same spot as these 2 guys and understand their frustration. You can call the fish cops 50 times and get a different reason that they can't do a f**king thing every time. "Too bad for you bud, their sure are alot of deer here" is the most common response.
No matter whether in MT. or SK. the problem is the same. Wildlife management is designed around keeping numbers at maximum capacity, during perfect weather. Hard winters or drought bring wildlife into feed yards. Nowhere is there a plan for this that works.
I find it rather odd that the urban knowitalls even believe they should have an opinion without knowing all the details.
If you own it you should be responsible for any damage it does. Mark

Perry, I can't find the "shoot on sight" clause under nuisance animals. Maybe I just can't find it or I'm blind.

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
US1,

This is a capitolist society and money talks. Don't be bitter just move to one of those other countries where apperently hunting is still free. Texas didn't ruin your hunting. Population growth changed hunting. As demand grows so did possible revenue streams for hunters. It was a natural evolution in economics. Also Texas still has some great public land opportunities if you want to look into them.

This is getting way off topic but Texas doesn't have hardly any opportunities for public land hunting when compared to other States. The second largest State in the United States has only a little better than 5% of the total acreage set aside for public use. Privatization will ruin hunting, we are already reading stories about the decline of the number of new hunters.

TX % of Public Lands

Public Lands Western States

I just can't see where Texas is the pioneer or the ideal model for game management. I can go to the auction buy a fat pig have it processed for less money than I can shoot a wild one for. I know because I've done it, I had fun but it wasn't what I would consider hunting.

The problem with the way you are thinking is you are putting more value on the trophy on the wall than the experience of the hunt. That is what I see is the main problem with the TX hunting industry. Sure a trophy is nice but that isn't why I hunt.

Sorry for the rant, now back to the main subject.

The problem with the two men accused of killing the elk is they forgot where their money comes from. If someone would pay me in excess of $80,000 a year for hunting rights I'd make damn sure those elk made it through the winter alive to be hunted the next season. If I thought I was going to have a problem with too many elk I'd pressure the guide service to bring more hunters in as well.

smartherthen

I live in another country it's called Alaska I can catch Salmon in downtown Anchorage hunt moose right out of town all on public land,and I like it that way, you can keep your high fenced pay a bunch feeder hunting there aint nothing you got that I want to hunt, oh that right you have Texas dall i'll keep hunting the real one's.

And I'm damn happy it's a hard drive to AK. as I have seen I-40 through NM bumper to bumper with Texas Lic. plates and trailers full of ATV for the over the counter Elk season in CO.

Alan
You can start by telling me where I ever said you could "shoot on sight". Secondly...again I said that under "nuisance animals" TP&W states that wtd can be "controlled with lethal means". Do you understand what LETHAL means? Dont answer that this discussion is getting old.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Alan
You can start by telling me where I ever said you could "shoot on sight". Secondly...again I said that under "nuisance animals" TP&W states that wtd can be "controlled with lethal means". Do you understand what LETHAL means? Dont answer that this discussion is getting old.

Perry

Perry could you provide a link to what ou stated regarding deer?

I found the following information but it only deals with nuisance furbearing animals:

Landowners or their agents may take nuisance fur-bearing animals in any number by any means at any time on that person's land without the need for a hunting or trapping license. However, fur-bearing animals or their pelts taken for these purposes may not be retained or possessed by anyone at any time except licensed trappers during the lawful open season and possession periods.

Here is the link to the above statements.

In everything I could dig up either a Managed Lands Deer Permit (MLDP), a Anterless Deer and Spike Control Permit (ADCP) or a Landowner Assisted Management Permitting System (LAMPS) permit needs to be issued by the state.

I really did look on the website under nuisance animals and didn't see anything about lethal means. I saw a bunch of stuff about how to keep them out of stuff you didn't want them in but never saw the lethal(except once, see below_ means term. As I said I may have missed it. The TPW people didn't seem to think it was there.

Yes perry, I understand what lethal means means. I just didn't see it on the website or the procedures to go about such activities. I guess what bothers me about it is that when we are talking about a couple of guys breaking their laws (in Colorado) a Texan (or two) gives the impression that it's perfectly alright in Texas so what's the big deal.

Fact is, is that it's not alright except under certain circumstances and by certain procedures.

I can't find your reference on the TPW website. That's all. I looked where you said to look and I can't find it.

What I could find was this:

"Of course, deer managers must comply with applicable state wildlife regulations, city ordinances, and community policies while conducting deer control measures. Lethal control measures commonly require the approval of city government and special authorization from Texas Parks and Wildlife Department."

That's a far cry from this:

"In Tx you can kill deer out of season and over bag limits if they are damaging agricultural crops/resource you just can not do anything with them."

There is also a statement to the effect that"

• Process deer in a closed and sheltered facility.
• Donate meat to food banks for distribution to needy people in the community.

so it seems that you can do something with them too.


I am going to TPW Website,
hunting and wildlife,
Wildlife,
Nuisance Wildlife,
overabundant Deer,
and under that there are three articles.

maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. The discussion is getting old but I really don't find your reference. If it's not there it doesn't mean that I'm smarterthanu(thank God for that) and if it is that your smarterthanme.

Alan

I never said the law being broken on Co was no big deal. What I was trying to do is spark intelegent debate that Co could change thier laws to be more cooperative with landowner and business owner rights.

By the way try and find a state biologist that will issue you MLD permits during April for 150 wtd. The law thats in place isn't for giving meat to hungry people or help the hunting industry and in fact is not concidered hunting at all. It is about business owner rights to protect an investment.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
I never said the law being broken on Co was no big deal. What I was trying to do is spark intelegent debate that Co could change thier laws to be more cooperative with landowner and business owner rights.

Hey, DUMBERTHANSHIT, why should the state of Colorado change their laws to be cooperative to landowner and business rights? It's a documented fact that these ranches do everything in their power, including fencing and feeding to keep a public resource on their property, so they can profit from it.

Have you ever actually left the state of Texas? In the Rocky Mountain region, the game is migratory. It will naturally moves around as the weather dictates. When the animals are in numbers beyond the capacity of the land and their natural foods, they turn to other food supplies in order to survive. In other words, when the game is enticed to stay in one place, they will eventually cause problems.

Most of the big ranchers try to keep the game on their property so they can then lease the hunting rights to outfitters or non-resident hunters. I have no problem with that because a man should be allowed to make a legal living on his own property. But if that man is going to dis-allow a soulotion to a problem of his own making, then the public should not have to suck it up to him.

In the State of Colorado, and I know not every state is the same, the game belongs to the public. If that game is causing depredation and the rancher has done everything he/she can to eliminate the problem, including allowing the public to hunt, the state will compensate the rancher. If the rancher does not allow hunting, the state will not compensate because the rancher is then seen to be the major contributing factor for the depredation by enticing the game to stay in one place instead of following normal migration patterns.

The bottom line is these 2 clowns sent an e-mail to the state giving them a 2 week deadline. After that they took the law into their own hands. Intentional waste of big game is a felony in the state. They failed to handle this within the guidelines of the state.

So, my question to you is, Why should the state change the law when there is already a guideline in place to address these types of issues. Not only s there a policy in place, but it has been in place for many years and has alwys worked well. Should an entire state have it's laws changed just so 2 idiots that don't follow the law in the first place can be placated?

Gonna be a hard sell in the Rockies.

As a Colorado resident who has spent many years trying to kill a bull on public property and pays taxes in this state, I feel these 2 selfish assholes should pay to the full extent of the law. I know plenty of ranchers and grew up on a family farm back east, this is by no means game management, this was slaughter pure and simple. As to the dumb ass idea that Colorado should change its laws to be more like Texas, no thanks folks you can have it. Has anyone else noticed that "smarterthanu" seems to be all hat and no cattle? Just an observation.
Steve

quote:

Hey, DUMBERTHANSHIT, why should the state of Colorado change their laws to be cooperative to landowner and business rights? It's a documented fact that these ranches do everything in their power, including fencing and feeding to keep a public resource on their property, so they can profit from it.

I think that pretty much somes up Mac there. Without efficient business' your entire economy crashes you fool. Those taxes those guys pay on thier profit educate your kids and fix your roads. Apparently your life as a stupid ingrate has blinded you from guarding your future. I seriously doubt that just two men are breaking this law in your state. By the way your genious management idea of animals just migrate away when there is no food is bullshit. First, these cows didn't leave when there was no food left. They learned to take food from another source. Second, plenty of animals starve to death or die from complications from malnutrition every year. Your magical migration theory rarely works. Just look at the massive die off of muledeer in your own state a year ago. This is why the State of Co would do better changing its laws.

SKB,

I hold a degree in wildlife and FIsheries Sciences. Both sides of my family were old Texas Ranch Families. I used to own a hunting company. I am probably the most qualified "hat" on this thread.

Maybe the fact that both sides of your family are old Texas ranch families has tainted your viewpoint just a little. This aint Texas, game animals are not for sale here, and I could give a good God Damn as to when the electronic feeder will go off and your tame deer are going to come in to the plate...You can keep your Texas style pay to hunt behind the fence and only the wealthy can play. Here we believe in going out HUNTING, and your Damn right those were my Elk. Maybe you should study Wildlife and Fisheries in a place that applies it wildlife, not penned game animals fed like cattle, then you may have a grasp of how wild migratory ungulates behave.
Steve

SKB,

You pay to hunt wher you are too. Maybe not to a rancher but you still pay. By the way not one single one of the ranches my family owned had a high fence. I also haven't shot a trophy deer under a feeder since I was 16. Most of what you study in college is free range management even for elk. I have done biologist work on two high fence ranches also. Maybe the fact that you can't afford private land elk hunting has tainted your viewpoint. Quit being so bitter skb and realize I want good hunting even for people like you and Mac., but good hunting should very rarely take the place of men earning a living.

You are very mistaken that I'm bitter because I cannot afford it. The only thing I pay for to hunt Elk is my license. I live here and hunt out my back door. Last year I took a trip to the South Island of New Zealand. While there I paid a guide and a landowner to shoot a wonderful Free Range Red Stag and a Falllow Buck. I took a Chamois by myself on public land. I can afford it, and I dont mind paying. Its the fact that these 2 guys were so selfish that just makes me boil. I believe in following the law regarding these incredible animals. Otherwise I would have already had my monster on the wall. I've been with 10 yards of at least 5 bulls here, but never with a bull license. If I wanted to take one, it was a done deal. Its a matter of ethics. Build a fence, buy a noise generating gun like the vinyards use, there are other ways. If I seem bitter its not due to be unable to swing a private land hunt. It is because some us believe that this is a terrible waste of an incedible resource which belongs to all of us.
Steve

By the way SKB ask your state why all thier proper management of free range animals couldn't stop an estimated 20,000 deer from starving to death 2 winters ago in south east Colorado.

One thing you learn in wildlife management, and it isn't a pretty lesson. ANimals get completely wasted often. There is nothing you can do about it. Most biologists agree to try and optimize resources usage as best you can but sometimes time and money constraints prevent it. Your state wildlife agency and mine kill animals often and not one bit of it is utilized. Killing animals in masses sometimes is propper management and sometimes doing nothing more than throwing them in a hole in the ground is also propper management sometimes. It ain't pretty but it can be necessary.

And what give these 2 yahoos the authority to make that management decision? Just because they own the land does not give them the right to shoot whatever crosses it as they see fit. I fully understand wildlife sometimes goes to waste. After all, that too is part of nature. It still is no excuse for these two did. They should be held fully accountable. By your theory, who exactly is it that decides what is ok to shoot and what is not? How many acres do you need to own before you can make your own laws?

quote:

I hold a degree in wildlife and FIsheries Sciences. Both sides of my family were old Texas Ranch Families. I used to own a hunting company. I am probably the most qualified "hat" on this thread.

I am more concerned than ever now!

"were" "used" "most qualified" and delusional too! It must be tough at the top being smarter than everyone and such.



Alan

SKB,

You don't listen to what I say. In Colorado the two yahoos have no rights to make a wildlife management decision and that is the problem. Texas is very different. That is the arguement I have provided. I am not an advocate of anyone making thier "own laws". But property owners, no matter how many acres, have a right to influence government in the making of such laws, and it is in the governments best interest to listen to them. Here in TX the landowner decides what is OK to SHoot and what is not, and Texas has the strongest hunting economy in the nation by far. You need to let go of the idea that the state government knows what is better for wildlife than private companies. In certian cases yes the government can make better decisions for wildlife than a person, but by far TX has shown private ownership and management has propelled quality, quantity, and revenue for wildlife more than any state agency ever could.

By the way didn't colorado drasticly increase the number of elk permits this year to make up for past mismanagement that has given them a population delema. I doubt 34 elk are going to set back the states management plan at all.

Mr McDaniel,

Is your only purpose here to try and be insulting? Have you finally raced to the gutter because you are all out of good ideas. Some one questioned my qualifications and I answered. Can you come close to that much education and experience in this field? Set down the Haterade.

quote:

Texas has the strongest hunting economy in the nation by far. You need to let go of the idea that the state government knows what is better for wildlife than private companies. In certian cases yes the government can make better decisions for wildlife than a person, but by far TX has shown private ownership and management has propelled quality, quantity, and revenue for wildlife more than any state agency ever could.

If the hunting in Texas and game management is so friggin great, then explain to my why I see so many Texas license plates out in the field during hunting season in my state. And it isn't just my state of Colorado, the mass migration of Texans in Oct and Nov occurs in every Rocky Mountain state.


Of the people from Texas that I've talked to in the field in Colorado one topic keeps coming up. Lots of folks in Texas can not afford the high dollar leases you charge down that way and since you don't have much in the way of public land, it is cheaper for them to travel out of state to hunt. That's pretty sad when they can drive hundreds of miles and pay non-resident fees to hunt deer cheaper out of their home state than they can hunt at home.

So, you can stick to hunting livestock in Texas, and I'll stick to hunting free ranging elk in the Rockies. That way, we'll probably never have to meet face to face. Not everyone in the country is impressed with the way Texas does things.

Oh and if you are still curious about all those deer starving, we have a thing called winter out here. You know, snow, ice, cold. Things no Texas whitetail ever has to contend with. So, when the animals are starving and under stress, thet's just let some asshole open up on them.

You have got to be an idiot to think something like that is justified. And you still never answered my question, HAVE YOU EVER SET FOOT OUTSIDE OF TEXAS? If not, then all your opinions are invalid, because you have no first hand experience.

Mac,

I have hunted in Colorado 3 seperate times and I will be returning this next year. If the hunters you know in Co hunt because of the prices in Colorado they are not very good at math. There are mountians of good cheap hunting in Texas.

But I thought if the deer move to where food is when it runs out in one place then the deer in SOuth East CO wouldn't have died. You can't even remember the BS you have typed on this thread and you proved my point about winter die offs for me.

I also have hunted in Oregon, Kentucky, Alabama, New Mexico, Alaska, and Zimbabwe. By the way, thankyou if you ever hunted in Texas. We all appreciate your business and your company. We hope you return soon and we gaurantee we will do our best to make sure your experience here is good.

I've hunted Texas. I've also hunted California, Wyoming, Nebraska, Montana, Kansas, Pennsylvania, Flordia, Virginia, Alabama, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Cameroon and probably a couple I've forgotten. I'm also off to Alaska later this year.

Hard for deer to migrate when a blizzard dumps 20 plus feet of snow on them. In extreme cases, the state does supplemental feeding until conditions improve. If these rancher would have asked for state assistance, they would have most likely received it. But they didn't ask. They sent an ultimatium, did not wait for a reply, and then they opened fire.

I haven't forgotten a single thing I've typed. Bottom line is the ranchers failed to address the situation in accordance with the guidelines in place. And because of that, they will end up with huge fines and will probably lose their vehicles and firearms and will lose their rights to hunt in something like 18 states. That's because the Rocky Mountain States all honor violation prosocuetions in each other's jusidictions.

And the most important thing is that it happened in COLORADO. The law in Texas or the policy in Texas are simply not relevant to this incident.

Here's an example: The posted speed limit on Texas Highways at night are differen than the posted speed limits during the day. I don't know of any other state with that requirement. Does that mean that Texas should adopt the same speed limits as Montana? No. Each state has it's own laws which are in place with the consent of the residents of that state. What the residents of another state believe is simply not taken into consideration. Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

You are the only person posting on this topic that has tried to condone the illegal killing of 34 head of elk. Actions like that simply can not be condoned by anybody claiming to be a law abiding sportsman. Either hunters bond together and condemn actions like this, or the anti-hunters will use it as a broad brush to paint us all with.

I have a bit more information that might shed a little light on the way things are done in Texas. Seems some people were incorrect in their assumptions and I'll let them try and save face.

Wendell looks like you won't be eating any words.

I sent a question to the Texas Parks & Wildlife last night. Here were my questions:

I have been informed that landowners have the right to handle problem deer with any means possible. I tried to find the information on the TP&W website, but only found information about nuisance fur-bearing animals. It was explained to me that in the state of Texas, a landowner has the right to kill any game animals (i.e. deer) that are causing agricultural damage on said property at any time throughout the year. I was also informed that at no time is said problem animal to be utilized in any manor i.e. consumption, etc. Could you please clarify these statements and the proper means for controlling nuisance deer? Also, is there any differentiation between nuisance white-tailed and mule deer control?

Here is the response I just received:

XXXXXXX,

With regard to white-tailed deer in Texas these animanls are classified
as a game species and as such are protected by various codes and
regulations. The short answer to your question is no, unless
specifically authorized by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
landowners do not have a legal right to dispatch deer using any means
possible. So called problem deer are subject to the same regulations,
seasons, bag limits, and restrictions preventing the waste of meat as
all other deer.

An exception to this is if the landowner obtains what the Department
calls a Depredation Permit, which allows the individual to kill deer
outside of the normal season without regard to bag limits. In order to
obtain a Depredation Permit the landowner must demonstrate economic
losses or a threat to public safety, post the information in the county
courthouse, have the property or area in question visited by a
Department biologist, and take all fesible measures to prevent deer
from
entering their property before receiving the permit. If they are
approved for the permit all carcasses must be kept in edible condition
and donated to a Department approved charity for human consumption.
Any
other use of the carcass or leaving the animal where it was shot would
be considered a violation of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Code.

Under these rules the Department makes no distinction between the game
species, including between white-tailed and mule deer. The Depredation
Permit is not frequently issued as there are often other ways to deal
with nuisance deer, including behavioral changes and various other
permits such as the Trap Transport and Process permit. Please see the
links below for more information. I hope this answers your questions,

Ryan McGillicuddy
Wildlife Permitting Specialist
512-389-8212 (office)
512-389-4657 (fax)
ryan.mcgillicuddy@tpwd.state.tx.us

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/nuisance/
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/permits/land/wildlife_management/tr
ap_transport/


Looks like some might want to STOP shooting any deer they want at any time or you might be in a bit of trouble regardless if it is private land!!

Once again you proved my point your migration theory is false.

You have also missed my point of arguement. I know where the offense was commited. I know they broke the law. I am trying to help people think dynamicly about there laws and try and change them. That will not do anything to save these two but it could rescue your elk heard in the future.

Last, Have you as a landowner jumped through the government hoops to get them to alott moneys to come help management? SOmetimes there isn't that much time. If the guys didn't want the states help why would they have ever called?

Smarterthanu

I'm all for landowner rights, but you are failing to realize at least one of the accused made part of his living off of marketing this "Public Resource". He is paid a sum of money that in Colorado's eyes is enough to offset any damages done by the elk. Because he took this money he is not entitled to anything the State offers to other landowners who do not market their property for hunting. So in this case I feel the State is very justified in pursuing felony charges against these landowners.

quote:

That will not do anything to save these two but it could rescue your elk heard in the future.

Let's see, we have the biggest elk herd in the country. We have the most elk tags available in the country. Just exactly how do you see improving it?

You probably think it would be a good idea to set a supplement feeder on every acre, artificially impregnant the cows with hand-selected semen and cull off anything that doesn't meet your standards. Let's give control to a select few who can dictate what the price to hunt will be and also what we can take.

Sorry, I'll take the elk herd the way it is, publically owned, free ranging and available for the common man with the simple price of a tag.

If you have made it this far in life without learning the lesson of Quantity does not mean quality then you are beyond help. Obvoiusly your state biologisits have learned this. Thus thier massive increase in available elk tags.

Graybird,

Thanks for posting. That's pretty much the same response that I got when I called, and to think you did it all the way from Colorado.

Thanks again.

Alan

Mr. Graybird,

I finally found it. State law is hard to read and search through. The 34th legislature of the State of Texas, passed house bill #28. It makes a permit necessary for depredation purposes if you are not the LANDOWNER. The permit is not granted by TP&W but a state judge for the County were the permit will be used. It also gives the landowner the right to contest the permit within 5 days to the same judge.

The 34th legislature of the State of Texas convened in 1915.

I'm going to go out on a limb without looking and say that HB #28 from 1915 might be a bit dated.

My purpose is not to insult unless you are insulted by people saying that you are not smarterthanthem.

I think you're probably a somewhat intelligent person who just simply doesn't always know what they are talking about. Nothing wrong with that, unless you refuse to admit it.

Alan

Graybird,

Thanks for the info. That is what I have heard from my game warden when I asked him about this.

I have been researching options for a while now, and MLD is the first line for me, since I am game fenced.

I can't even trap them and take them outside the gate and release them, that is against the law. Even thought they are native deer.

I have a couple options. MLD permits and shoot the deer or TTT permit, to catch and transfer the deer elsewhere.

For me to obtain a TTT permit, (Trap & transfer permit) I will need 10 samples for CWD testing. Since you would have to kill 10 deer to get 10 samples, and you can not shoot does, what can I do? I can't shoot 10 bucks. That would take me 5 years at least. Then I have a huge Doe problem.

I will have to get MLD permits, shoot 10 does, have them tested. Apply for the TTT permit and wait for the TTT permit.

First, to get MLD permits I need 2 years of data on observations. Luckily, I have that.

It is a long process.

Sure would be easier if I could just shoot the darn things ...

Mr. McDaniel,

Your federal rights were secured on a piece of paper written in the 18th century. Age of law doesn't negate it. By the way that is the latest thing I can find anywhere in Texas State Law reguarding depredation permits and land ownership. I also want to get this straight. Your hangup with me is connected to what my name is on this forum?????? If you only knew the story behind the name you would feel foolish for spending so much time with your panties in a wad over a silly assumption. Relax and your ego will remain safely intact.

I don't wear panties. Your forum name? I could care less what it means or why you use it, but it leaves itself open to easy shots especially when you are wrong. You are wrong. You made a statement which cannot be borne out in fact and practice and as such spread misinformation about game laws in Texas. That's all.

As I mentioned earlier, TPW wants to know when and where anyone is shooting deer as you describe. I would prefer that they explain it directly to you or whoever, and you or whoever can offer to argue over a point of law from 1915 with them.

Others reading will, I'm sure, make up their own minds.

Good luck.

Alan

quote:

If you have made it this far in life without learning the lesson of Quantity does not mean quality then you are beyond help. Obvoiusly your state biologisits have learned this. Thus thier massive increase in available elk tags.

The World Record Typical Mulie is from Co. The former World Record elk is from Colorado, The World Record Mulie with archery tackle is from Co. The World Record Bighorn with archery tackle is from Co. The former World Record MTN Goat with achery tackle is from CO. The former World Record MTN Lion is from CO. There are more mule deer in the Boone & Crockett record book from CO than from all the other states combined. And we did it all by having a qualified state run hunting program.

The so called massive increase in elk tags is slanted towards the cows. They haven't drastically increased bull tags. The reason for the increase was because the elk herd continues to grow. Too many people (non-residents) come up just looking for antlers and have not gone after the cows. So, we decreased the cost of tags for cows for the non-residents to encourage harvest. And we have been pretty consistent about taking around 55,000 elk a season. No other state can boast of elk numbers like that. So, I'd say the state probably knows what it is doing.

quote:

If the hunters you know in Co hunt because of the prices in Colorado they are not very good at math. There are mountians of good cheap hunting in Texas.

What is your definition of cheap? A resident of Texas can come to Colorado, get a non-resident cow elk tag for less than $300 and hunt elk for the cost of the gasoline to get to the mountains. As a resident of Colorado, I can hunt deer, elk, antelope, bear, cougar, moose, sheep, and goats on public land for the cost of the license and the gas to go after them. No leases, no landowner permission, no trophy fees.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that a resident of Texas, that does not own the land or belong to a lease can go hunt elk, deer, and bear for about $100 in tag fees and gasoline? Just the tresspass fees, and access to a ranch would make a little bitty whitetail buck cost around $1000 in Texas, and that's why they come up my way.

I completely believe that the state of Texas wants to know every single deer fatality they can, through these means or others. That is a great management tool.

You haven't proven anything. You had some government employee tell you something and you haven't backed it up with one piece of law yet.
Would you like to here the story about the gamewarden who tried to right me tickets for every resource document that didn't have the "number" from my Federal Waterfowl stamp written on them. I also had a federal game warden come in and say he was going to take me to jail for not turning over a whitetailed deer without a warrant. Look these guys do pretty good work but they aren't omniscient and they think they are omnipotent. Thats why they were almost desolved completely in Texas in the 1980's.

Alan,
Mr. Notsmarterthanu is an expert in law, geology (check posts on the Sahara Desert being caused by man's intrusion in the area), impressionistic art, game management, African hunting, sub-Saharan African intelligence and genetics, Cindy Garrison and women's looks in general and a host of other topics. If you doubt that, ask him. It should come as no suprise that this Houston taxidermist has the knowledge to intrude in the affairs of ranchers and the wildlife agency in Colorado. You are wasting electrons arguing with him as he is the expert.

Vinny,

Threads about the Saharan desert have very little to do with Geology. That debate was based in range sciences, meteorology, and ecology. At least I know what the different sciences are. I also am not an expert in the subject of "CIndy Garreson" if there is such a thing thank God.

Mac,
When were all those records set? Could you supply some dates there? I know the massive amount of elk tags were for cows, thats the best way to regulate quantity. Once again you prove my point. There is no place in Texas where you can hunt bear legally so price is not an issue. I also do not know of one single ranch or National forest, or WMA that promotes free range elk hunting, so once again money isn't why you see texans where you hunt. Last I know of places within 1.5 hours of here where you can hunt deer on public land and it only costs the state public lands permit which is about $100.

Last every single person I know that travels to Colorado to hunt also hunts here in Texas. In fact I can't think of one single person I have ever talked to that said he went to Colorado for the money. Most enjoy the different species to hunt, the wonderful climate to hunt in, and just a change in pace.

Vinny,

My electrons were running low and I kinda figured they were being drained off into some black hole of knowledge. I may let the rant continue without me. I try my best to put my State in the best light when dealing with other people from other states or countries. As is quite obvious, when Texas is brought up out come the guns. In the eyes of many, the whole place is high fenced, all the deer have ear tags and you can't walk around without tripping over electronic feeders. 50 yards away is a heated/air conditioned blind with a beer swilling, Asshole, Texan waiting to waylay some hapless pet with a 50BMG short magnum.

This is not the case for the vast majority of Texans. Most are just the same kind of hunters you find anywhere else, people who engage in hunting and outdoorsmanship for the simple pleasures it provides.

I've seen some of stu's comments around on other threads and you're right, this is just more of the same.

Thanks,

Alan