>>Actually you are incorrect. Most browse that is fead upon by deer is much higher in nutritional value than grasses.<<

Hello, hello?

Pay attention, now.

That is the case when the browse is in GOOD condition; it isn't the case when it isn't, as it is currently in many of the mule deer habitats in the West -- except TX, that is.

>>Also I never claimed that the state of colorado did not produce trophies anymore. Where you got that idea I don't know.<<

Let's see...wasn't it you that hammered on how long it took CO to get another top 10 non-typical? Wasn't it you that implied TX is some how producing big mule deer faster than CO??

>>You also think you should give a deer something to improve his life.<<

I do?? Perhaps you missed some sarcasm somewhere? In fact, I think just the opposite; YOU ARE the one that wants "management" to include going to outlandish means to produce "quality" on public lands. That ain't going to happen.

The best management on public lands when game is not doing well is controling people, thereby controling the harvest. But even controling the harvest of bucks only has a minimal effect on the growth of a depressed herd because the does are the productive ones. That's why antlerless hunts have basically become a thing of the past except for some Jr. hunts in areas where the herds haven't been affected as badly. Arizona's North Kaibab is just one example.

>>That is why I said the federal government should also be doing thier part on these lands.<<

Oh please. The last thing we need is the feds getting involved in managing the states' game. That would be worse than having you manage it.

>>I also wasn't talking about strictly drinking water. More deer tags to sell doesn't make money unless you have the quality to attract the spenders who purchase them.<<

Then why do all the Texans still flock to CO, AZ and UT if the management of game is so poor??

And what other kind of water were you talking about -- maybe having the local Indian tribes do rain dances? Or are you suggesting the building of irrigation systems on public lands to help promote the growth of more cliffrose and mountain mahogany?

>>Do you want to sell 5 tags for 150 apiece or 1 tag for 1500. Do the math on which will give more money to improve wildlife.<<

That's Texas math. In other states, the residents want affordable hunting and opportunties to hunt. Pricing licenses out of the reach of many takes both away and would quickly result in management the Texas way -- pay thru the nose. So selling 10 tags -- not 5 -- at $150 is much preferred over one at $1,500.

>>Higher population does not mean the herd is healthy.<<

Duh!! No kidding? OTOH, having a population at or just below the ability for the habitat to support it is ideal.

As for the die-off, NO ONE -- including you -- could predict such an occurrence. AT THE TIME, that herd was stable and not too large for the given habitat. Refer back to your "extreme" conditions and add a catastrophic snowstorm to them.

Yet in the grand scheme of things, that wasn't a big deal either. Before Texans came up with the great way to manage mule deer and long before the CDOW came into existence, Nature was using her own way of managing. Sometimes that still happens. -TONY

P.S. Did you miss this one again???

Second, what verifiable information do you have to support the "%40...were taken" garbage?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In texas the state has allready given permission to kill game animals causing agricultural damage. You do not have to prove or ask anything, however I would suggest that you contact a game warden before hand.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

I stated a fact not an opinion, and another poster proved it for me by quoting directly out of the state wildlife handbook. If you can't see my factual opinion was correct then you are blind. The wall you "splat" into is your own foolishness.

If you didn't notice, your partner in crime, Perry, has quit posting on the subject. Maybe you might want to do the same?

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
I have been informed that landowners have the right to handle problem deer with any means possible. It was explained to me that in the state of Texas, a landowner has the right to kill any game animals (i.e. deer) that are causing agricultural damage on said property at any time throughout the year. I was also informed that at no time is said problem animal to be utilized in any manor i.e. consumption, etc. Could you please clarify these statements and the proper means for controlling nuisance deer?

Answer:
With regard to white-tailed deer in Texas these animanls are classified
as a game species and as such are protected by various codes and
regulations. The short answer to your question is no, unless
specifically authorized by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
landowners do not have a legal right to dispatch deer using any means
possible. So called problem deer are subject to the same regulations,
seasons, bag limits, and restrictions preventing the waste of meat as
all other deer.
Ryan McGillicuddy
Wildlife Permitting Specialist

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

Graybird,

I don't suggest anyone take my word on this if they need help, but I don't suggest they take yours or anyone elses on the forum. I suggest they consult an attorney that specializes in wildlife laws for his or her state. Do not take the word of the TP&W department to quote you law either.

I posted what was sent to me via a TP&W Specialist, I never clained this was a law or the truth as you did above. I would bet that an expert within the TP&W is more of an expert on wildlife law and game management then a taxidermist in Houston!!



smarterthanu,

You are now crawfishing!!

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Have a little bit more open mind that you might not know what the hell your talking about and then you might not look so foolish.

You might want to try swallowing your shallow pride and take a bit of your own advice.

quote:

Do you want to sell 5 tags for 150 apiece or 1 tag for 1500.

quote:

Dropping food in front of thier faces isn't the only solution. If that is the only solution Colorado could come up with they must have thought they were managing black men and not mule deer.

smarterthan? please do not vote or breed.

And back to the origins of the thread. These people broke the law and I hope they pay dearly for it.

Tony and all you other intelligent Folks, and we all know which one does not qualify for that title.

I have already told you that you are wasting yout time with old DUMBERTHAN SHIT. He is smarter than all us.

Tony, Tony, Tony, you can't just tell him that the herds are healthy and big deer are being taken yearly. Since this guy can't look at statistics or record books himself, please do the folllowing:

Take a bunch of YOUR time and recored for him every record book mulie and elk taken off public land in the last 10 years. Please be so good as to list the date of kill, the location of kill, the hunter's name, his mother's name and blood type, caliber of weapon used, distance of shot, angle of shot, facing angle of animal when shot, immediate reaction of animal on impact, distance animal traveled after being shot, and the color of pants the hunter was wearing at the time of shot. For good measure, try to get the spouse's and children's name as well, and the make and model and color of vehicle the hunter drove to the hunting area.

Even if you can get all that, old DUMBERTHANSHIT will sit in east Texas and tell you that you are full of shit because we all know, by his divine authority, that no state game dept can properly manage game and they need to import a bunch of qualified game ranchers. So every one can be just like them in Texas.

To all you Texans, please notify your State legistrature and ask them to immediately refund a bunch of your tax money, because you no longer need all those high paid lawyers, game warden and judges. Per old DUMBERTHANSHIT, he and his taxidermist buddies are the only ones that can interpret the law.

And will someone please look over the posts I've made here on this topic and tell me where I ever said all the deer tags in Colorado are currently sold over the counter? I've stated the state manages the game for the public good. I've stated the game is available for the price of a tag and the gas to get there. I've stated and proved that Colorado can produce not only quantity but quality.

And with the help of a bunch of other inputs from the rest of you, we have proved that old DUMBERTHANSHIT is actualy dumber than shit.

quote:

You think my parents sending me to college, which by the way I worked a day and a night job, and still graduated in four years, made me someone you should dislike?????? That may be the most uneducated and bigoted idea I have ever heard here. You really need to rethink how you judge people. I work 70 hours a week every week, I have two kids, and a dog, and an old 2300 sq ft house. My old truck is paid for, and yes I shit like you do.

No Junior you make me dislike you all by yourself.

If one of my kids came back from college as illiterate and wrong minded as you are I would sue the school and demand my money back! Pewee, if you gotta work 70 hours a week to support yourself may I possibly suggest career counseling.

Me judge people???? Naw not me. I let 'em spout off on the internet and then they tell me exactly what kind of person they are, I don't have to judge 'em thataway.

No I don't hold your going to college against you, but it damn sure doesn't say much for our education system here in Texas though.


Hope the kid had some fun and caught some fish though.

Graybird,

I am the only person on this thread that has cited any specific law. I don't base my beliefs on if another person is backing me or not. I got over needing personel support by the time I was ten.

Outdoor writer,

You are crawfishing on what you said about forbs and you are still wrong. Forb nutrition will still outperform grasses even in drought conditions. The even better part is it will outperform grass in propogation and growth rate in longterm drought conditions as you have described. How many doe tags did Colorado issue last year? What is the average state Buck to doe ratio there. What is the average age of mortality for a buck in your state? Is any one doing forage density and bio-mass studies there both in good times and more importantly in periods of the record snowfall. Is anyone adjusting thier carrying capacity results for the deer herd for both stress peaks and growth periods along with total annual carrying capacities? If they are they sure aren't using it to make your hunting all it could be. Maintain and learn these numbers then start putting food in thier mouths and warm blankets and you can have a deer heard like your children have heard thier grandfathers talk about.

JTEX,

You talk trash because my parents own land. That was being a bigot. The entire state you live in was founded on the purpose of free people owning land. You would look down your nose at the very people that secured you a right to bitch. Self-righteousness. You talk trash because I work 70 hours a week. Thats what it takes in my business to outperform and outgrow my competition. I don't want to be happy just scraping by. I want to make sure my children have a shot at getting a great education and outperforming other peoples children so that they can afford hunting or whatever outdoor activity they so desire. You expect your whining about money will make the government "fix" hunting so you know your kids will go hunting in some form of socialist hunting utopia. Keep sipping on your hatorade and bitching instead of working 70 hours a week. See how long it takes until your children are not cheated but outcompeted in the future of hunting. Also when you step into the million dollar 6000 sq ft new facillity we break ground on this year, I want you to remember thats what 70 hours a week can pull.

Just like to bring a little sanity to this thread. I can clearly see both sides of the story here. The ranchers have a right to make a living, but taking 80k a year form an outfitter, and then still complaining about the elk seems a bit thick headed to me. If the guy had starving kids I could look the other way. But to just lay waste to the elk cause of some hay, after pocketing the 80k. I'm calling BS. Punish him. Severely.
When I was a kid we were very poor. Once I was old enough to shoot straight (about age 12 or so) I was expected to fill my tag for the freezer. Now in NH you don't need a tag till your 16. And sometimes we didn't always have enough to feed everyone. My old man wouldn't think twice to lay out some doe if we needed it. Clearly illegal,but unethical? Maybe to some. Now this clown on the other hand. He is trying to play both sides of the game, and got caught. Good for the people of CO. Texas laws, and Landowners rights aren't really relevant. In an ideal world things would have worked differently. Then again in an ideal world I wouldn't have Hillary Clinton on my TV spouting ready at day one propaganda.
I feel bad for some hunters in this country. Public land,private land. Uggh. In NH if it ain't posted you can hunt it. Period. There are laws about distances form roads, houses etc. But I don't need my neighbors permission to hunt his land. Not how I operate, but thats the law. We don't have many record deer up here. Hell an 8 pointer is a nice rack. But boy are they big bodied. 200lb dressed ain't to hard to find. And if your up for it and can handle the snow, the cold and the dark woods we got some real monsters up here. If any of you get a notion for some cheap hunting give me a yell. Costs about $80 for a non res tag. I'll guide ya for free. Bring your pack boots and wool coats, and something quick and handy in the brush. A peep sighted rem pump action carbine in '06 with some heavy round nose rounds seems to be the preffered medicine.
One question about the Texas laws you all were citing. Is a deer of any type classified as a fur bearing game animal? I read the law pertaining to the lethal means of control, and that just jumped out at me. Seems to me the law is about say coyotes or some such. Just curious. In NH we have coyotes etc classified as fur bearing game, but not deer or moose.

NHbwana

Whitetailed deer are not classified as a furbearer, but are listed as a game animal.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Alan
You can start by telling me where I ever said you could "shoot on sight". Secondly...again I said that under "nuisance animals" TP&W states that wtd can be "controlled with lethal means". Do you understand what LETHAL means? Dont answer that this discussion is getting old.

Perry

Perry could you provide a link to what ou stated regarding deer?

I found the following information but it only deals with nuisance furbearing animals:

Landowners or their agents may take nuisance fur-bearing animals in any number by any means at any time on that person's land without the need for a hunting or trapping license. However, fur-bearing animals or their pelts taken for these purposes may not be retained or possessed by anyone at any time except licensed trappers during the lawful open season and possession periods.

Here is the link to the above statements.

In everything I could dig up either a Managed Lands Deer Permit (MLDP), a Anterless Deer and Spike Control Permit (ADCP) or a Landowner Assisted Management Permitting System (LAMPS) permit needs to be issued by the state.

My question is how does a deer fall under this law than? If it doesn't fall under this law exactly what law does allow the unregulated destruction of nuisance deer in Texas? Just curious is all..maybe you could point me in the right direction?

NHbwana

quote:

The entire state you live in was founded on the purpose of free people owning land.

Not even close, you are just full of misinformation ain't ya.

quote:

You expect your whining about money will make the government "fix" hunting so you know your kids will go hunting in some form of socialist hunting utopia.

What are you some kind of MORON, I am a for sure Capitalist. Where do you come up with this Socialist crap? Are you a closet Socialist?

quote:

Keep sipping on your hatorade

What kind of 12 year old stuff is "hatorade" your not really a confused 12 year old are you? I mean really you are a grown up right?
Junior I don't hate anyone, I just dislike you, a lot.

I know in an earlier post you said you were really a nice person, but you are really not showing that to be the case.

quote:

instead of working 70 hours a week.

I see where all of your bitterness comes from. You picked a means of making a living that doesn't support you to well huh? Not a good enough niche in the market, too competative? Or just mediocre performance?

quote:

See how long it takes until your children are not cheated but outcompeted in the future of hunting.

Neither my children or I use hunting as a form of competition, nor will we ever.

quote:

Also when you step into the million dollar 6000 sq ft new facillity we break ground on this year,

I kinda doubt that is gonna happen, I don't do business with people that are "rude" even when they are rude on the internet.

We.......we, you don't mean there are more than one of you?
Man that's only $166.00 per sq, ft. in Houston with todays prices that's awful cheap construction.

I am kinda tired of you, with all your talk of hate. It ain't much fun playing mind games with an unarmed person.

"you hate me"

"your a Socialist"

Smartperson --- my curiosity is killing me -- just what do you do for a living?? -- I am sure there are others besides me that would like to hear about your business also --- just so we can observe a one mile radius "of do not go there"!

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Graybird,

I am the only person on this thread that has cited any specific law. I don't base my beliefs on if another person is backing me or not. I got over needing personel support by the time I was ten.

Then why did you state this?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

I stated a fact not an opinion, and another poster proved it for me by quoting directly out of the state wildlife handbook. If you can't see my factual opinion was correct then you are blind.

You still haven't posted the laws that state and outline the following:

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In texas the state has allready given permission to kill game animals causing agricultural damage. You do not have to prove or ask anything, however I would suggest that you contact a game warden before hand.

Until you give me those laws, you are 100% wrong. Face it you're wrong. It is "ok" to be wrong.

I still believe the statements below are 100% correct!!

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Have a little bit more open mind that you might not know what the hell your talking about and then you might not look so foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
You might want to try swallowing your shallow pride and take a bit of your own advice.

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by Woodmnctry:
Smartperson --- my curiosity is killing me -- just what do you do for a living?? -- I am sure there are others besides me that would like to hear about your business also --- just so we can observe a one mile radius "of do not go there"!

He is a taxidermist (Tri-State Taxidermy) in Houston next to a pretty good BBQ joint on the Katy Freeway and makes a living being a jerk behind the mask of the internet.

NHbwana, In Texas, like every other State in the Union, deer(sans exotics) are game animals. You won't find anything in the regs about being able to shoot them like STU or Perry said. Perry dropped under the radar cause I think he saw the light but "smarterthanus" is, ......... well, not smartenoughto.

I keep getting a picture in my mind of Rumpelstiltskin stamping his foot and into the ground and tearing himself in two.

Alan

quote:

My question is how does a deer fall under this law than? If it doesn't fall under this law exactly what law does allow the unregulated destruction of nuisance deer in Texas? Just curious is all..maybe you could point me in the right direction?

NHbwana

NHbwana,

Go back and read the response I received from the TP&W specialist. That should answer your question, hopefully.

Graybird,

Cite some law. Just one law . Not what some lady on a phone says.

JTEX,

Capitolists don't cry about the price of hunting destroying hunting. As for back-up, I don't need it, but if someone is offering I take it. My building is actually costing much less than the price you quoted also. Capitolists have to watch expendetures. Once again you are welcome there anytime when it is finished.

Vinny,

I make a living mounting animals. I do not think posting on a forum is sitting behind a mak on the internet. I always answer peoples questions about me to the best of my ability and I don't deny people's knowledge of me here. Fear is other people's problem.

Mr. McDaniel,

You are making assumptions for why Mr. Perry is not still on the thread. Like Graybird, please cite some law.

Woodmnctry,

You are welcome to visit anytime, and don't worry about being within one mile of me. There are plenty of nice people around here and I don't take time from my day to hunt anyone down. I also don't take any of this personaly, unlike some around here. I also worked in the private sector as a wildlife biologist for a while here in Texas. I have a fairly extensive training in fine art. I worked as a guide for a while also here in Texas.

smarterthanu,

PROVE me WRONG!!! You can't.

Graybird,

Ditto!

I am not worried about a right or wrong here. What I am worried about is states laws that cut into landowner's rights, and if those laws exist, they should either be terminated or ammended. I posted a state policy here, early on the thread, and was attacked for it, but have still yet to be proven wrong. I never tried to prove you wrong and don't have to because your opinion was counterpoint in an open debate. Six days and five pages later you haven't proven anything either.

JTEX,

I forgot in my previous post. Why did Austin bring settlers to Texas?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Vinny,

I make a living mounting animals.

Now that is funny!

Taylorce 1,

Theres a ton of good jokes about that line. Want some Pics??

quote:

Graybird,

Cite some law. Just one law . Not what some lady on a phone says.

JTEX,

Capitolists don't cry about the price of hunting destroying hunting. As for back-up, I don't need it, but if someone is offering I take it. My building is actually costing much less than the price you quoted also. Capitolists have to watch expendetures. Once again you are welcome there anytime when it is finished.

Vinny,

I make a living mounting animals. I do not think posting on a forum is sitting behind a mak on the internet. I always answer peoples questions about me to the best of my ability and I don't deny people's knowledge of me here. Fear is other people's problem.

Mr. McDaniel,

You are making assumptions for why Mr. Perry is not still on the thread. Like Graybird, please cite some law.

Woodmnctry,

You are welcome to visit anytime, and don't worry about being within one mile of me. There are plenty of nice people around here and I don't take time from my day to hunt anyone down. I also don't take any of this personaly, unlike some around here. I also worked in the private sector as a wildlife biologist for a while here in Texas. I have a fairly extensive training in fine art. I worked as a guide for a while also here in Texas.

And Forrest another one, wrong as usual. You asked me, why ole Steve Austin brought people to Texas it wasn't even the State of Texas it was to Mexico that he brought these settlers, your Mama should have saved the money she spent on sending you to college and made you go through the sixth grade again, you know, they do teach Texas history there, college must have left that out.

quote:

Also when you step into the million dollar 6000 sq ft new facillity we break ground on this year,

You are the one that quoted $1,000,000.00 for a 6000sq.ft. building now I am not a "Rocket Scientist" like you are but that is pretty easy math $1,000,000.00 divided by 6,000 sq.ft. = $166.66 per sq.ft. I know you are College educated and all but it seems to me like $166.00 bucks a sq. ft. is what you are paying, oh, maybe you misquoted something yet again? Or are you a just Democrat or something? could that be the case?

Someone is most assuredly educated beyond his intelligence.

I don't really take this internet crap seriously either.

You are picking ate details I allready know. You know Austin brought people here under prospect of OWNERSHIP of land Grants from Mexico. This was so important when Texas became a state that Texas made sure that it retained title to all of its land and not the USA.

As for the construction which you spoke of earlier it does not cost 1 million dollars. The land it sits on though brings the price to 1 million. So, no, the construction does not cost $166 a square foot. And also if you are paying $166 a foot for just about any construction here in Houston you are getting raped. Most commercial construction here on average is going for about 100-110.

Hi all,
Whatever happened to those 2 ranchers?
Thanks, Doug

quote:

And also if you are paying $166 a foot for just about any construction here in Houston you are getting raped. Most commercial construction here on average is going for about 100-110.

I guess now you are a construction estimating genius too.

Man, you can spew misinformation about just anything! You are amazing!

quote:

You are picking ate details I allready know. You know Austin brought people here under prospect of OWNERSHIP of land Grants from Mexico. This was so important when Texas became a state that Texas made sure that it retained title to all of its land and not the USA.

Well why didn't ya' say that then????? Did you just miss speak like Hillary. Or did you go study up on some Texas history?

Damn I hope I get to be as "smart" as you are one day!

Taxidermist
Wildlife Biologist
Legal Expert
Land rights Expert
Fine Art ( what the heck ever )
Construction Cost Expert
Texas History Expert
Texas Wildlife Law expert
Colorado Mule Deer Expert

Wow, man, I don't know how you pull it all off. No wonder you go by "smarterthanu". Dang I just knew there had to be a good reason.

quote:

Originally posted by drm-hp:
Hi all,
Whatever happened to those 2 ranchers?
Thanks, Doug

Try to stay on subject here. We are talking about Texas and laws and history and construction and art and browse/forbes and record books and taxidermy and ...

well you get the point.

smarterthanu,

I was always taught extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the Law in texas does indeed allow the unregulated destruction of nuisance deer, then that to me would be extraordinary. It would to my knowledge be the only state in the union with such an arrangement. The law that has been stated clearly, by your own admission, would remove deer as falling under said regulation/law.

You have repeatedly stated that we as a group should not listen to anyone from your state wildlife agency. As they do not care or are unaware of the law. I guess it really comes down to the one who makes such a grand claim, should be able to back up said claims. You have asked many of us to go by your word, and repeatedly called laws patently false. Yet have not backed u a single claim of yours. I'd just like to see the reg. is all. I have no horse in this race, but I do enjoy seeing how other states run their affairs.

NHbwana

NHbwana,

I don't know if this would be the only state that would have these laws because I know very little about other states game laws. You are wrong on many counts. I have never said do not listen to our state game officials. I said do not accept things as law just because they tell you so. I have never asked anyone to go by my word. I actually stated anyone with these problems should consult an attorney that specializes in these matters. I have not called any law "patently false" here because no person besides me here has cited a law yet.

JTEX,

I never claimed to be a COnstruction expert, but I did have 7 GC's bid this building for me in the past 2 months, so I am somewhat familiar with pricing right now. I have not claimed to be a legal expert, or a Texas History expert. As for WIldlife law expert and Mule deer expert I think that falls under "legal Expert" and "wildlife Biologist". So those two are a little redundant.

quote:

but I did have 7 GC's bid this building for me in the past 2 months,

7 did you say 7 GC's bid this job????????? What were you doing waiting for somebody to make a mistake and come in "Stupid" low?????

As far as your areas of "Expertise". I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, my most sincere apoligies.

There was 150K differnence between the high and the low bidder. I am definately open for stupid low anytime also.

Smarterthanu,

In case you have forgotten what you posted, the law you posted says nothing about your claims regarding landowners right to shoot deer on site if causing damage.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
The 34th legislature of the State of Texas, passed house bill #28. It makes a permit necessary for depredation purposes if you are NOT the LANDOWNER. The permit is not granted by TP&W but a state judge for the County were the permit will be used. It also gives the landowner the right to contest the permit within 5 days to the same judge..

I could post a law or two that has nothing to do with your claims too. You have yet to post a law that proves your outlandish claims:

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In TX you can shoot animals that belong to the state that are causing agricultural damage. You are not allowed to eat or use them in any way though. I have zero problems with a rancher that wants to wipe the animals off of his place. These are his rights as a property owner and it keeps them from having legal recourse against the state.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

In texas the state has allready given permission to kill game animals causing agricultural damage. You do not have to prove or ask anything

The statements below still hold true:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Have a little bit more open mind that you might not know what the hell your talking about and then you might not look so foolish.

You might want to try swallowing your shallow pride and take a bit of your own advice.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Mr. Graybird,

I finally found it. State law is hard to read and search through. The 34th legislature of the State of Texas, passed house bill #28. It makes a permit necessary for depredation purposes if you are not the LANDOWNER. The permit is not granted by TP&W but a state judge for the County were the permit will be used. It also gives the landowner the right to contest the permit within 5 days to the same judge.

If you'd like to argue law thats fine. I can put my work hat on for a couple of minutes. A) You don't include the actual text of the law. I guarantee you that is not how the law appears in print though. A cherry pick on your behalf or simply an oversight? B) Show me where in that text it states any rights given to a landowner? It affords the right of appeal to the permit. So if the TPWD gets a permit under said law and you don't want them to shoot the deer you have a right to appeal. Fine. Show me where it states that you as a landowner have the right to unregulated depredation of nuisance deer? Your so called proof of law has zero bearing on your statement. Zero.

I'll assume your premise of bringing it up was your rather unskilled translation of that law. And since it stated non landowner you assumed it was all fine and good for the landowner. Wrong. Dead wrong. The law may have been to protect landowners rights. Maybe from rival ranchers, over zealous hunters who knows. It protects rights to a degree, but in no way affords them. Your translation of that law is at best rudimentary. At worst your trying to twist a law to suit your argument.

I suggest you continue to consult with actual council in these matters. And if you ever decide to partake in some depredation as you read the law, make sure you have a very good one available for your families sake.

And once again we are back at the old extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Care to step up to the plate now?

NHbwana

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
There was 150K differnence between the high and the low bidder. I am definately open for stupid low anytime also.

I hope you truly get what you pay for....

Hey Vinny, ain't it funny that when you ask a Taxidermist for pricing you get that old line about sure you can get it cheaper and faster but "you always get what you pay for".

I stopped into the Taxidermy shop that this guy is affiliated with a couple of years ago and that's the line I got.

I left. I haven't been back.

But when it's their money the bottom dollar is what counts, that's why there are so many terrible contractors out there, they make a helluva living off those who want cheap, by giving them cheap.

As much as I really don't like this guy, I sure hope he is "smarterthanthat".

From today's Denver Post newspaper:

quote:

The story behind the slaughter of 34 elk on two ranches west of Craig has come into sharper focus with this revelation. The Rio Ro Mo cattle ranch, whose owner, Rodney Culverwell, is charged with felony counts involving the slaughter and illegal possession of 18 elk earlier this year, posts a minimum opening bid of $80,000 for an exclusive hunting lease on the 21,000-acre property west of Craig.

Why, one might wonder, would a rancher earning big bucks off a hunting operation want to shoot elk that invaded his haystacks and leave them to rot? The answer, of course, is these elk were cows, of minimal value among the pay-to-play crowd. The other part of the equation is that this part of northwest Colorado is brimming elk. While Colorado Division of Wildlife efforts to bring herds near population objectives has been successful in other parts of the state, numbers remain high around Craig and Steamboat Springs. Many area ranchers — even those who charge for hunting — consider cow elk something of a nuisance during these recent years of plenty.

All of which brings us back to the continuing rub between ranchers and game managers striving to promote herd balance and public hunting. Landowners complain about elk troubles, but won't allow public hunters on their properties to crop the cows. Thus we have conflicts like the one leading up to the recent slaughter.

A neighboring rancher, Kenneth Wolgram, faces similar charges for shooting 16 elk during roughly the same time period.

That just about sums it up. They want the elk to sell high-priced hunts, but don't want to take simple steps like allowing cow elk hunting for either free or reduced prices and therefor have a large part of the blame to rest on their own shoulders. This was done out of greed and had nothing to do with property rights or management.

NHbwana and Graybird,

I posted the said law after someone said the state requires depredation permits issued by TP&W. The law after my searching was the only one I could find anywhere that speaks of depredation "permits", and they were only issued for non-landowners which is not we are talking about here. The other reason I posted it was to show the TP&W was not informed correctly when they stated they issue the permits because it clearly stated there the permits are issued by a state judge.

JTEX,

You are now a liar. No person has ever gotten the cheaper and faster talk in here. I am not the cheapest in town but by my knowledge I am the fastest and getting faster. I have never once given that BS line to anyone. When people ask for cheaper here I tell them I know what my margins have to be. When people say they want faster, I try and accomodate. By the way I didn't try and twist any of those GC's to a cheaper rate. I just took thier bids and compared for myself. If I am too expensive maybe you can whine to the government and they will add taxidermy services to your new socialist hunting world agenda.

Vinny,

I hope I get a great building at a great price. The same as I would wish for any man. You and JTEX are some verry bitter people.

Mac,

Thanks for the post. I am not sure about civil litigation in COlorado but I do know here in TX there has been a lot of ranchers scared to open thier properties up to the public for culling. Here in TX most of the landowners here horror stories of people who get hurt on thier ranch and end up getting the shit sued out of them. I have even heard of this happening when people have tresspassed illegaly. I don't know if these lawsuits can and do take place, but I do know that these are actual fears of landowners. They are scared to death of lawyers and sue happy hunters.

BY the way MAC it sounds like it was management. The property owners make money out of selling bulls. It looked like they were over run with cows. They either kill some of the cows or risk some of the bulls dying from starvation or having an off year in antler size. Either way they were headed to a poorer elk yield and they tried to curb it with illegal means. Just because it ain't pretty doesn't mean it ain't management.

Also Mac,

Is there an elk season now in Colorado that cow elk hunters can take advantage of in June? I don't know about it. Maybe that is a new reg the DOW can come up with to help out these ranchers.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Also Mac,

Is there an elk season now in Colorado that cow elk hunters can take advantage of in June? I don't know about it. Maybe that is a new reg the DOW can come up with to help out these ranchers.

Yep, there is. They have a special early season hunt for female elk in northwest Colorado that runs from Aug until the beginning of Oct, which is when the normal season structure takes over. Under the normal season structure, they hunt elk from Oct until Jan in northwest Colorado. So, there is about 6 months of continuous hunting. That's a pretty long period of elk hunting.

A couple years ago when they potato farmers in southwest Colorado had problems with the elk damaging the seed poatos, they state initiated a summer elk hunt. But the farmers for the most part didn't allow hunters with the tags to get on the land the elk were damaging. The Division of Wildlife will take action when there is a problem if the ranchers/farmers ask.

However,, it doesn't do any good if the hunters can not get to the elk. A lot of big ranchers encourage the cow elk to stay on their property year round to entice the bulls off public ground. The ranchers then sell the hunts for bulls for huge money to the non-resident hunters. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it is legal. But when they entice the herds to stay on their property and do not allow any dispersal of the herds by hunting the females, then they have themselves to blame when the elk begin to damage haystacks during bad winters, which the state is experiencing right now.

Bottom line is they took the law into their own hands when they came to the conclusion that the very animals they made big money on last fall are costing them money this winter. They want their bread buttered on both sides, and it just ain't gonna happen in Colorado. It might in Texas, but this was a violation of Colorado law and no other state's laws have any bearing. PERIOD.