quote:

Originally posted by perry:
In Tx you can kill deer out of season and over bag limits if they are damaging agricultural crops/resource you just can not do anything with them.

These men were not stealing they were protecting their investment...VERY different than an armed robber stealing a tv.

Perry

BULLSHIT!!!!!!!! News flash, it isn't Texas. In the State of Colorado, they can not destroy wildlife at will. The game in the state has been determined by the courts in the state to belong to the PUBLIC. Willful destruction of wildlife in the state of Colorado is classed as a felony. If one of the bulls happens to have a 5 pt antler, then they fall under what is called the Samson Law and the fine for that single animal will be over $10,000.

The state has a policy of compensating ranchers and farmers for wildlife depredation. Theses men chose not to handle this through legal means and took it into their own hands and by law, they did not have any legal right (IE... own) the game. The public did. It is not at all different.

They weren't "protecting their investment". By the time this is all said and done, a couple tons of hay will seem cheap. These guys will probably end up paying somewhere around $100,000 in fines, will have their firearms and trucks confiscated and may end up losing their ranches as well. Per state law in Colorado, organized poaching rings can have every item used in the commission of the crime seized by the state. If it is found they were profiting from this killing, there will be serious hell to pay.

Why can't we all just get along. Several reasons:
1. Rancher owns the ground and the cattle - state claims they own the elk.
2. State doesn't feed the elk. This keeps them from becoming dependent and using up all the PR funds currently paying "biologists" to study endangered species such as snails and wolves.
3. Rancher tells state to get their elk off his land. Gets big hurrah from state - again, conflict with the PR funds currently paying salaries for "biologists" . . . . Usually results in state not taking any calls from the rancher because he is "crazy" . . . .
4. Rancher goes to visit DOW since they won't take his calls. Gets so frustrated with the bureaucratic BS that he proves to the "biologists" in residence that he is crazy . . . . At least the rancher can go home and tell his spouse that he told them what he thinks.
5. Rancher takes matters into his own hands. Now DOW can prove he's crazy. They set about to do so.
6. Rancher is now on defensive. He can't believe how stupid the DOW is. Confusion reigns. DOW knows (and can prove) rancher is crazy. Rancher knows but can't prove DOW is stupid. Ever try to prove somebody is stupid? You end up being tagged a racist. Now the rancher is a crazy racist.
7. Rancher shows up in court. Expect fair trail. Judge is a law school graduate from downtown NYC. Next step is an appeal. Meanwhile the banker is getting concerned. Calf crop is way off and the ranch payment is a little light.
8. Banker calls judge, DOW, concerned neighbors, and anybody else he can think of. Even calls the rancher's dad to see if he'll help out his son.
9. Banker has no choice. Forecloses on crazy racist rancher. Hires cowboys to gather starving cows.
10. Stupid DOW proposes that banker donate the ranch for winter elk habitat. Rancher now has evidence of DOW stupidity but it's too late for him.
11. DOW and banker work togeather. No $s available for elk habitat but they do find some $ to sponsor a wolf introduction. Wolves are introduced. Wolves eat the elk. Everybody is happy.
12. Rancher committed suicide last week. There was a wonderful obituary. Banker attended the funeral. Everybody spoke about what a hard worker he was. No evidence of any DOW biologists in attendance at the funeral.

At last, someone is making sense!

Alan

Here's one way to handle this if you don't want any wildlife on your land. Fence it off.

Seriously, a rancher up by White Sulphur Springs did just that. No more problems. Now, it wasn't so much public land elk invasion post season that drove him to spend, as I recall over $25K for this fence, it was his rancher neighbor. The guy next door runs a big spread and outfits it for those with enough cash. Problem: Clients aren't going to pay 5 figures to whack a cow, result, after the season 500+ elk, mostly cows, show up on the soon to be fenced land! Our fence builder allowed hunting for years, hell he'd even help you load it into your pick up. Problem is if you shoot a cow, the herd will leave, to somewhere they don't shoot cows, yep the neighbors trophy hunter only ranch has ALL the cows on it during the season. After the season they are back to the "lets everyone hunt" guys spread.

The point is it not only resident hunters who get crapped on by the elk equals $$$$$$$ crowd, it also the neighboring ranches. Is the guy in Colorado just another "victum" of greed? Or is he part of the problem?

Do yall know if they took video of it for Youtube...34 elk shot at once, now that is entertainment.

Perry

quote:

Now, I have been wrong before, but this seems pretty clear. I will eat my words if someone can prove me wrong.

Wendell your words are safe ( you won't have to eat them ) this guy is always spouting facts with no, none, nada back up. Mis information seems to be his specialty.

He could provide links or reference for his facts but never does.

Wendell
TP&W states in their manual under "nuisance animals" that wtd can be "controlled" with lethal or non lethal methods. Mule deer may have a different clause though.
They do suggest trying the non-lethal as to keep wtd in a "favorable light".

Perry

Mr. Reich,

Your game warden buddy is either mis-informed or full of shit. This is a problem for many game wardens although they try and do thier job well. If you have a mule deer causing you agricultural damage right now you are completely within your rights within this state, a point Montana Hunter fails to understand, to kill it. Like Perry stated its within the handbook.

The people on this forum don't understand that landowners have rights, and JTEX, you and me have argued landowner rights before, and I have never seen you back anything up you ever said here.

Lastly Mr. Reich, you back up Mr McDaniels who doesn't even know that you can kill as many elk in this state as you want because they aren't a state game animal here.

The laws that I spoke of here are in place because landowners have rights to protect thier income. If deer are destroying you corn crop in the middle of April what are you supposed to do???????? Don't say bring in hunters, because its April! Hunters can't legally take deer in April.

smarterthanallofus, you sure make a lot of assumptions about what we all know, but, then again, you're smarterthanus. Reread and you will find a qualifying phrase "in their respective environment" that did not require explanation for anyone otherthanyou. Give it a break, you have to have depredation permits and it has to be done under the direction of TPW.

and

Elk in Texas aren't game animals, but they aren't wild either. They are Private property and shooting them indiscriminately is like shooting someone's cow that crosses a fence.

I won't continue to try and educate you further since you are, in your world, smaterthanme.

Have great life.

Alan

quote:

They are Private property and shooting them indiscriminately is like shooting someone's cow that crosses a fence.

I have to disagree with this statement. A friend on mine has a ranch in West Texas where elk move through on a somewhat regular basis. It is perefectly legal for him to shoot them if he so desires. They are a non-game animal the same as a coyote with no season or bag limit. Since the elk were re-introduced into the area by Parks and Wildife how can anyone claim ownership?

Mr. McDaniel,

Not all elk in Texas are private property. Guess what else! Even the Private property elk that leave thier enclosures and go on to other peoples land can be shot dead. Guess what else! You can do the same to a cow. It is not considered neighbourly and rarely happens, but it does happen. Actually with cattle they are usually caught and butchered.

By the way when you are killing a problematic game animal on your property even 34 of them you are doing it under the "direction" of TP&W that is why it is in thier regulations.

Holler back any time you need to be re-educated. I am glad to help.

quote:

The people on this forum don't understand that landowners have rights, and JTEX, you and me have argued landowner rights before, and I have never seen you back anything up you ever said here.

I back up everything I say here. The "wall" you always "splat" right into, is that I state my "opinion" while you always state what you believe to be facts, and as in our earlier debates your facts are not quite right.

When it comes to opinion, I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, but when a person states something as "fact" that is wrong and could most likely get someone in trouble this should be pointed out to that person.

But then considering the source of these facts, I am sure no one would give them much credibility anyway.

quote:

I won't continue to try and educate you further since you are, in your world, smaterthanme.

Alan and M16 are both correct. M16 has quoted the exception to the rule.

Remember Texas is bigger than some African and European countires. OUr terrain varries quite a bit.

I would imagine Alan is talking about Hill Country Elk, that are guaranteed escapees from Game ranches, where M16 is talking about a real wild herd of Elk.

I even have Elk that move into my area from the Whichita Mts. in OK. These are not game ranch Elk, they are real wild Elk.

I can shoot them if I want to ... and I will! In fact, I have been after one particular Cow for about 6 months now. I never can get the two of us together on the same day though. I have a ton of Game Camera pictures of her.

As Mac pointed out
THIS HAPPENED IN COLORADO NOT TEXAS.
TEXAS LAW HAS ABSOLUTELY NO APPLICATION WHAT-SO-EVER!!!

(IF you are from Texas and not a total retard I apologize if I offended you, as I have met some very nice folks from Texas. Note to Texas school teachers: You really need to emphasize that there are 49 other states and actually other countries in the world besides Texas, some kids are obviously not getting this radical concept.)

This whole thing has finally shead some light on way occationally some Texans act like total jackasses when they come to MT. YOU STILL THINK YOUR IN TEXAS! Wow, if this rest of the world was just like Texas it would be SOOOO much better don't you agree?

Humm, as I recall there is a form of delusional psychosis that manifests itself in this way, maybe that's it. Either that or too much fired food and the clogged arteries are causing dementia...

JTEX,

I stated a fact not an opinion, and another poster proved it for me by quoting directly out of the state wildlife handbook. If you can't see my factual opinion was correct then you are blind. The wall you "splat" into is your own foolishness. Have a little bit more open mind that you might not know what the hell your talking about and then you might not look so foolish.

Mr. Reich,

Best of luck on that elk. There are many wild elk in west Texas that weren't introduced either. They have always been there contrary to what people in Goliad think.

quote:

Note to Texas school teachers: You really need to emphasize that there are 49 other states and actually other countries in the world besides Texas, some kids are obviously not getting this radical concept.

I duuno, I am going to have to look into this supposed "other 49 states theory" you propose!



I suspect there may be some truth to it.

Hunter Montana and Mac,

You are failing to understand our parallels here. We know where the offense happened. We are arguing about whether other states have ignorant laws compared to Texas. If you missed this please take the blinders off. Consequently some people here won't agree with your opinion about how bad these offenders are because they think your states laws are foolish. I don't speek in percentages of who is stupid or retarded based on a place of residence, but I will say for a person to do so is foolish and of low character.

quote:

I stated a fact not an opinion

quote:

We are arguing about whether other states have ignorant laws compared to Texas.

Delusional! Gotta be an AGGIE.

JTEX,

Did you completely miss Perry's post? This would be the only rational reason you are still arguing this.

I don't give a rats butt about the laws in Texas. This happen just down the road from me here in Colorado. These guys want their cake both ways.
Lease the ranch for 80K p/year and when the hunting season is over to hell with the wildlife just shoot them down and let them rot, 80k buys a lot of hay. I hope they hang the bas@@#dsRanch for Lease



http://www.leasehunting.com/db/details.mv?osku=1225&tuser=&pasu=

Thats good that you don't care about Texas laws. Hence yalls problems will continue until you believe there is a better way.

Elkfitter
Do you REALLY believe these guys should pay with their life?

Perry

perry

"hang them" as in throw the book at them on all felony charges.

Class, there are 50 states in the United States, there's Texas and there's 49 Not-Texas.

Smarterthanthou and Perry, I just got off the phone with TPW and they want to know where and when they can find you shooting Whitetail Deer on sight for damaging agricultural stuff. They really wanted to know!

I kinda got the impression that maybe you read the regs wrong or something. Further I don't even think it's legal to dispatch a deer hit and disabled by a vehicle in Texas. Maybe your smarter than TPW too!

Oh, and no you can't shoot a cow either, it's called rustling. It may be done, all to often, but it's not legal.

Class dismissed.

For the record, I'm not trying to push Texas laws off on Colorado or anywhere else but will say those guys took the law into their own hands . I'm sure they will pay for it handsomely and will view elk in an entirely different light in the future. It may not be a positive light but it will be different.

We are all faced with decisions at times about game laws and we may feel very strongly about the "rightness" of those laws. I, for example, feel that many redfish and speckled trout that are caught and released die because of damage and stress during the catch and release process. Never-the-less I will not keep and undersized or oversized fish, nor more than my limit(not much chance of that happening) because of the Heavy, heavy fines imposed upon those who choose to violate the law and I don't break laws purposely regardless of the reason. Many times this is a moral and ethical dilemma when the fish is quite dead and must be returned to the water. It kinda makes the fishing a little less enjoyable after that.

Even if I saw an elk on our place I probably wouldn't shoot it because I would figure it was an escapee and it's owner might want it back (if he could get it) and I would want my neighbors to do the same for me. We had a group of Axis a while back and the neighbors and I decided that we would leave them be until they built up a little, but there are those who just can't control themselves and the axis are gone.

I know, I know, there are people in this world that are smarterthanme.

Alan

smarter

I will care about Texas laws when I'm in Texas.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Thats good that you don't care about Texas laws. Hence yalls problems will continue until you believe there is a better way.

You seriously can't beleive that Texas Game Laws are perfect? I wouldn't call Texas Game Management a model system. Yes we need to improve our system but I don't want to see CO adopt another State's laws, we need to find what works here.

quote:

Lease the ranch for 80K p/year and when the hunting season is over to hell with the wildlife just shoot them down and let them rot, 80k buys a lot of hay.

If and I say "IF" these guys are leasing out their property for $80K or more a year then the book should be thrown at them. In fact if they are taking any kind of compensation for elk hunting on their property above the levels the CO DOW has set up for reimbursement then they should be punished to the full extent of the law. On the other hand the CO DOW works at their own pace and what might be one farmer/rancehers problem might not rank very high on their to-do list.

Public resource or not if an individual landowner has a problem with them, the DOW should make assisting the landowners a higher priority. Not every farmer and rancher can afford to fence elk off of their property. Claiming losses on your tax return due to wildlife might be hard to prove in the IRS eyes, plus the money you get for a deduction is only a fraction of what you lost. Of course this is only if they are not receiving payments for hunting.

As far as Landowner tags go a landowner is allowed a maximum of 6 vouchers per species. This goes through an application and drawing process just like regular tags but for landowners. 6 animals doesn't put much of a dent in an over populated herd. Even though you own land you are not guarnteed to draw these vouchers. The only way for a landowner to get more vouchers is to join the Ranching for Wildlife program.

taylorce1

Read paragraph two
Rio Ro Mo Ranch

Elkfitter, you're saying that these are the guys who shot some of the elk? Seems that sort of activity would be bad for business.

Alan

Alan,

The outfitters link is the guy that leases the Rio Ro Mo Ranch from Rodney Culverwell. Rodney Culverwell (ranch owner) is one of the accused shooters not the outfitter.

Well I guess that's what I meant. I figured the outfitter wouldn't be killing off his livelihood. I'm not sure why the rancher would be either. I always wanted to hunt elk and hope to someday and Colorado is closer than Wyoming or Montana. I had a standing invite for some number of years to go in Oregon but never went. I am a little disturbed by the fact that some of the very people that would refer to me as a Texas Asshole (and I may be) would do something like this in their own state. I am a property owner and would not shoot 34 deer if they were eating the cattle feed (which they wouldn't, because they don't eat hay and I don't have cattle, thank goodness). I spend a lot of time and effort on game management and staying within the law. In fact our self imposed guidelines are more restrictive than what the state allows.

Yea, these fellows crossed a line and they should pay. End of story.

Alan

quote:

Officers said they found a stack of elk carcasses in Culverwell’s yard and noticed a cab full of spent, small-caliber, rifle casings in Culverwell’s vehicle after executing a search warrant Feb. 22

IF these elk were shot with a "small-caliber rifle" I have to wonder how many wounded elk wandered off to die later?

quote:

Posted 08 April 2008 19:29 Hide Post
As Mac pointed out
THIS HAPPENED IN COLORADO NOT TEXAS.
TEXAS LAW HAS ABSOLUTELY NO APPLICATION WHAT-SO-EVER!!!

(IF you are from Texas and not a total retard I apologize if I offended you, as I have met some very nice folks from Texas. Note to Texas school teachers: You really need to emphasize that there are 49 other states and actually other countries in the world besides Texas, some kids are obviously not getting this radical concept.)

This whole thing has finally shead some light on way occationally some Texans act like total jackasses when they come to MT. YOU STILL THINK YOUR IN TEXAS! Wow, if this rest of the world was just like Texas it would be SOOOO much better don't you agree?

Humm, as I recall there is a form of delusional

Mr McDaniel,

In proper game management it is a common tool to kill large numbers of game in peak stress periods to avoid a massive die off. This is actually why there are quite liberal quail limits here in Texas. The idea is its better to kill %75 and retain %25 of the population than to have %90 die. Killing in mass can actually be much better for the heard. Obviously these elk were under stress allready.

Mr. Smarterthanu,

I'm quite familiar with proper game management techniques and tools. These must fall within the parameters set by law. I think that the gentlemen from Colorado found themselves outside of these parameters, under Colorado law of course.

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by elkfitter:
Alan,

The outfitters link is the guy that leases the Rio Ro Mo Ranch from Rodney Culverwell. Rodney Culverwell (ranch owner) is one of the accused shooters not the outfitter.

Thanks elkfitter, I had to go back and read the article again. I didn't remember the mention of Rio Ro Mo Land Company in the orginal post.

Alan
My info came right off the TP&W website under whitetailed deer in the "nuisance animals" section. I believe PRINTED material trumps whoever you spoke with on the phone. I never said there weren't channels but you can use "lethal" means to control wtd in Tx.

Perry

Well I'm not going to do it, but like I said, they sure wanted to know about anyone who was doing it, printed material or no! Good luck.

Alan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Hunter Montana and Mac,

You are failing to understand our parallels here. We know where the offense happened. We are arguing about whether other states have ignorant laws compared to Texas.


Wow, missed the great stuff here since this morning but being a welfare type I had to go stand in line at welfare office, get my check, buy beer, did manage to trade off those worthless food stamps for some chew though, so I guess it was worth it...

Ignorant laws compared to Texas? My that puts a whole new spin on it doesn't it? I think if you use that arguement in a Montana court, well, I'd love to be there. (Probably CO as well, but I'll let the guys from CO comment on that SINCE IT'S THEIR STATE!)

If Texas wants a "shoot on sight" law for elk in Texas good for you,it is your state and you "pay" for the wildlife there in "your" way.

However, you need to understand that things might just be a tinny-tiny bit different in states with a long tradition of free, public access hunting, like CO and MT (Mostly because we have millions of acres of public land which Texas does not.) Combine that with substantial public funding of wildlife and a regional cultural concept that wildlife is a sacred public resorce and don't be surprised that we may find your attitude as repulsive as you seem to find ours ignorant.

Hunter Montana,

I don't think anybody can argue that Texas is not the pioneer and leader in wildlife management and by far the leader in revenue both foriegn and domestic spent by hunters in the USA.

Mr. Daniels,

Typically, and you want it this way, state game laws are designed around sound scientific study and management, not the other way around.

Hold on Texas leader in wildlife no leader in paying to hunt yes, you guys in Texas don't know another way.

IMO you Texascans have ruined free hunting across the west with throwing $$$ at every rancher around and mainly in states like NM. and CO. I was stationed in NM for 6 years and saw it every year in both states.

Back to the issue these two meatheads of ranchers should pay for there wanton waste of game..... I have known several ranchers in So. Co that get $$$ back from the state for crop and game damage these two could have done same but they chose to take the matter in there own hands so now pay just like you guys from Texas do.