Get a copy of the record books and check your own dates, I'm not a secretary. Bottom line is the records are documented and the Mulie Records still stand as holding the top spots. The elk just fell a couple years ago. The Bighorn Archery record still stands. The numbers of record mulies from the state is all documented in the books.

How many world records has Texas produced in the Boone and Crockett Record book? If I remember, they had the record non-typical from about 100 yrs ago, but it has been surpassed several times. Never has it produced a world record typical whitetail, a world record pronghorn, a world record mulie, a world record Desert Bighorn, a World Record MTN Lion, or a world record Jaguar, and there are not enough bears there to even talk about getting the world record.

Record books don't lie, they simply tell where the best specimens come from. Think about that for a minute. With all the supplemental feeding, predator control, water manipulation, artificial impregnation, Texas still doesn't produce world records in accordance with the requirements of the Boone and Crockett Club.

quote:

First, to get MLD permits I need 2 years of data on observations. Luckily, I have that.

Actually you don't unless you want to start at level 3. In that case you will also need harvest data as well as your census for the past two years. If you are only concerned about shooting enough does you can easily get enough permits through level 1.


I really like the MLD program. My ranch is level 3. It's pretty nice being able to hunt five months out of the year and shoot 30 or so deer a year.

I guess you're right Mac. I stopped looking at records when I was about 14. It just stopped being important to me. I realized that I was hunting for different reasons. I don't hold one thing against those who do hunt for records or who record their trophies as such. Everyone has known for a long time that northern whitetails are bigger in body and antler than Texas Hill Country bucks. It doesn't have anything to do with what anyone is doing right or wrong it's just the way it is! I will never produce a South Texas Brush Country size buck on our place in Beeville. They just don't grow like that around there, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying the hunt because I'm not going to get a crack at the record.

I want to go elk hunting someday and I would like to do it horseback and for a week or more. The elk is really going to be secondary to the hunt. I've never been to Colorado, Montana or Wyoming but when I go I want to take it all in. I don't want to rush out, kill and elk and get back to the bar. I want to hunt, and if I kill one on the second day, I still want to stay the whole time and enjoy the trip. I won't expect the guide to wait on me. I always pull my weight.

Not all Texans are about trophies and they aren't all Assholes who are going to come in and straighten everyone else out because they're from Texas. We're proud of our State, just like you are of yours. Stop badmouthing us and we'll try to do the same.(at least some of us will) I understand it's hard to hold back sometimes.

Alan

Alan,

I don't hunt trophies either. I've never had an animal scored and never will. I only referenced the record books because a certain individual went on record as saying that my state could not properly manage wildlife and it would be better in private hands. Obviously, the record books show that a state can manage game herds to provide not only quality, but also quantity.

If you would ike to do a free range elk hunt in Colorado, I'd be more than happy to help. I hunt public ground, on foot. Nothing fancy. But we usually do pretty good. The drawing for this season is over, but the area I go usually has leftover cow tags. Bulls are extremely limited, but if you want a cow for the freezer, keep me in mind.

Mac

Mac, I'm going to stay in touch with you on that. Thanks.

Alan

quote:

but good hunting should very rarely take the place of men earning a living.

Good hunting for citzens ALWAYS should take precedence over "men "taking" a living off of a natural resource that belongs to every person in the state.

quote:

There are mountians of good cheap hunting in Texas.

I would like to find one of those mountains! I have lived in and hunted Texas all my life and my definition of cheap is a whole lot different than yours.


Mr. McDaniel, SIR "YOU" are the man!!!!!! What a gentelmanly way with words you have. Sir my hat is off to you.
From Mr. Alan R. McDaniel

quote:

I think you're probably a somewhat intelligent person who just simply doesn't always know what they are talking about. Nothing wrong with that, unless you refuse to admit it.

This may be the biggest winner of all! Let's see Judges are Gov't employees, Game Wardens are Gov't. employees and TPWD kinda did give it to one poster in writing. But, oh, yeah, the written word from the agency in the state that enforces wildlife law is not back up. ( DELUSIONAL )

quote:

You haven't proven anything. You had some government employee tell you something and you haven't backed it up with one piece of law yet.

.


To everyone, I sincerely apologize for this person. He surely does not represent the majority views of Real Texans. And I'll stick by my earlier guess he is definantly an AGGIE, and for that we should all cut him some slack

smarterthanu,

From your post below, I have a couple questions for you.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
You haven't proven anything. You had some government employee tell you something and you haven't backed it up with one piece of law yet.

Are you telling me that I/we should believe what you have posted to be the truth and the law, and not what the Wildlife Permitting Speciatist wrote in his response to my inquiries?

Why would someone believe what a taxidermist states as being fact and the gospel about wildlife management and law within Texas, when a specialist within the TP&W contradicts entirely what you and Perry thought to be the truth and gospel?

You might want to think about throwing in the towel on this argument. It appears your thoughts on landowner's rights and laws regarding nuisance deer on private property are incorrect and you are misleading people, which could potentially get someone into serious trouble and maybe even yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

quote:

First, to get MLD permits I need 2 years of data on observations. Luckily, I have that.

Actually you don't unless you want to start at level 3. In that case you will also need harvest data as well as your census for the past two years. If you are only concerned about shooting enough does you can easily get enough permits through level 1.

I think that for Mulies, it is required. I can't see any different levels for MLD for Mule Deer.

MLD Permits for Mule Deer

Harvest Data:
• Mule deer harvest data from the 2 preceding years to include: number and sex of mule
deer harvested, age, weight, and antler data (right - beam circumference, main beam
length, antler spread, and number of points - left and right).
• Harvest data must be submitted to a TPWD Biologist/Technician by February 1, 2008.
• Providing reliable harvest data, including accurate ages as determined by tooth wear
and replacement, is a requirement for program participation. A suggestion for untrained
individuals is to remove and label one jawbone from every deer harvested for a wildlife
biologist to age at a later date. Jawbones must be labeled in such a way that the
biologist can identify the deer on the data sheet (e.g., Deer #1).

swabie

"Record books don't lie, they simply tell where the best specimens come from. Think about that for a minute. With all the supplemental feeding, predator control, water manipulation, artificial impregnation, Texas still doesn't produce world records in accordance with the requirements of the Boone and Crockett Club."

no shit sherlock after you build a fence around it nothing is counted in the fing bonehead and crotchrot club.

if a game ranch cloned the world record and shoved minerals and steroids up his ass for seven years he would not bee in that f---ed up book.

the only record worth keeping is the one in your head not the "look at me" book

Mac,

My point about dates was that a lot of those trophy animals killed weren't even killed in the modern age of wildlife management. They were killed back in what many call the "golden age of HUnting". Back before severe over hunting wiped out a lot of the population of mega fauna in the western USA. Now its a hole new ball game. Also some of those animals you mention can't be hunted at all in texas so your competitive arguement here is useless.

Graybird,

I don't suggest anyone take my word on this if they need help, but I don't suggest they take yours or anyone elses on the forum. I suggest they consult an attorney that specializes in wildlife laws for his or her state. Do not take the word of the TP&W department to quote you law either. They niether pass law or judge it. They mearly interpret it for the moment at hand for with the best of thier ability to serve the best purpose for themselves. I have worked in cooperation with TP&W off and on since I was 18 years old. Many of my friends family have or still do work for TP&W. They do great work but they know very, very little about law. Last, go talk to any taxidermist you can and you will see most of us know more than the average person about law. We constantly find ourselves pressured by the state and federal wildlife agencies, and if we did not know the law these guys would run right over us. Even then when it gets bad though I consult an attorney.

Crusher,

Please read all the posts. I referenced record books after a certain individual stated that my state of Colorado was incapable of managing wildlife and it would be better if private citizens managed it. I have never scored an animal, and never will because my ego just doesn't run that way. The initial purpose of record books was to document where the best specimens of game come from, which is way I have a couple of the books. I will admit that lots of people have taken it to serious extremes with the trophy collecting vice hunting and record boks have become kind of ego factories. But the info they have from a biological aspect is still pretty valid.

Using the best record book available (kind of an ridiculas statement I know), we can at least get an idea where the best free ranging specimen of big game is taken. Since the B/C Club does not allow fenced in game or animals that is not considered a game aimals without seasons (bison for the most part since they are only on license in a few states), it is at least a reasonable representation of where the better quality animals historically come from.

The same individual that claimed my state could nt manage game spoke directly to quality vs quantity. So my comment about the record books is still valid from a pure documentation angle.

And don't get too touchy, but if there is any state in the union with an antler fetish, it would be have to be Texas. Nobody else publishes a magazine like "Texas Trophy Hunter" or has almost all their hunting based an paying private landowners for access and being charged a fee depending on the size of the buck they shoot, or even being denied taking a shot on some deer. That kind of thing is pretty much a Texas exclusive. If you all like it that way, fine. After all, it is your state. But not everyone wants it that way and it seems like certain individuals that post here want the way Texas does things to be the way everyone does things.

Sorry, but I'll pass. Give me free ranging game and public access, and I'll be fine. As a matter of fact, a Texan named Doug Burris holds the current world record typical Mule Deer. That buck was taken on public ground in Delta County Colorado in 1972. All MR Burris had to do to hunt that deer was buy the tag and go hunting. He was unguided and could have shot any buck showing an antler. Back then a non-resident deer tag was about $75.00. How much would it cost someone to have a crack at a deer like that in Texas, assuming the state could produce a mulie like that? That deer would have a price tag of about 1/2 a million in Texas.

That's one of the fundmamental differences between states. In my state, the game belongs to everybody and anybody that wants to hunt can simply get the tag and hunt on millions of acres of public land. In your state, public land is very limited and after getting the tag, a hunter has to find a way to get on the private ranches. Either they know someone or they pay (sometimes huge $$$) for the privilige of hunting.

Difference in latitude, difference in attitudes.

Mac,

You are not telling the truth. In Texas you can purchase a public lands permit and hunt on our public land. Same as you. You proved my point on the date your trophies were taken when you posted the date 1972. What was the state doing to manage the deer herd then? Care to post those regs from 1972? Even better would you like those state regulations to be practiced in your state now? This has been my whole point. Do you actually believe over the counter tag zones are just as good hunting now as they were in 1972? I will await your answer.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Mac

My point about dates was that a lot of those trophy animals killed weren't even killed in the modern age of wildlife management. They were killed back in what many call the "golden age of Hunting". Back before severe over hunting wiped out a lot of the population of mega fauna in the western USA. Now its a hole new ball game. Also some of those animals you mention can't be hunted at all in texas so your competitive arguement here is useless.

First off DUMBERTHANSHIT, all the game I referenced in my previous post are native game that occured in Texas. Because they can not be hunted now, doesn't mean they have not been hunted in the past.

And since you obviously don't know what you are talking about, I will give you some info taken directly from the 2005 Boone and Crockett Record Book which is the most current one I have. All these listing are only taken fom the top 20. I admit this may not be fully up to date because I don't have a newer record book handy.

Rifle Kills:

Cougar The #4 Mountain Lion was taken in Acheleta County Colorado in 2001. The #13 Mountain Lion (former world record) was taken in Meeker County Colorado in 1901 by none other than Teddy Roosevelt.

ELK The #2 ELK (former world record) was taken in Dark Canyon Colorado in 1899. It was not surpassed until 1968. The #19 Elk was taken in Summit County Colorado in 1967.

TYPICAL MULE DEER The #6 Mule Deer was taken in Delta County Colorado in 1972. The #7 Mule Deer was taken in Delta County Colorado in 1958. The #7 Mule Deer was taken in Gypsum Creek Colorado in 1967. The #8 Mule Deer was taken in Moffat County Colorado in 1982. The #9 Mule Deer was taken in Garfield County Colorado in 1971. The #14 Mule Deer was taken in Grand County Colorado in 1963.

NON-TYPICAL MULE DEER The #11 Mule Deer as taken in Montezuma County Colorado in 1972. The #12 Mule Deer was taken in Norwood Colorado in 1954. The # 16 Mule Deer was taken in Elk Creek Colorado in 1886. The # 17 Mule Deer was taken in Eagle County Colorado in 1972. The # 18 Mule Deer was taken in Paonia County Colorado in 1965.

SHIRAS MOOSE The # 6 Shiras Moose was taken in Larimer County Colorado in 1997. The #9 Shiras Moose was taken in Jackson County Colorado in 1995.

PRONGHORN The # 6 Pronghorn was taken in Weld County Colorado in 1965.

ARCHERY KILLS:

BIGHORN SHEEP The former #1 Bighorn Sheep was taken in El Paso County Colorado in 1983.

MTN GOAT The former #1 Mountain Goat was taken in Park County Colorado in 1988.

TYPICAL MULE DEER The #1 Mule Deer was taken in White River Natl Forest Colorado in 1979.

NON_TYPICAL MULE DEER The #1 Mule Deer was taken in Morgan County Colorado in 1987.

If you look these dates over, you will find almost all of them were taken in the last 40 years. That is hardly in line with your statement "They were killed back in what many call the "golden age of Hunting". Back before severe over hunting wiped out a lot of the population of mega fauna in the western USA."

So, next time, do some research before you say something stupid. Your signature name shows you think you are smarter than everyone, but as is obvious to the most casual of observers, you appear to be a master of mediocraty instead.

quote:

I think that for Mulies, it is required. I can't see any different levels for MLD for Mule Deer.

My mistake. I was thinking whitetail.

Good lord Mac you are dumb. Look at the dates on these records and answer my questions from my last posts. And no we don't have Rocky Mountian Bighorn here. Also we don't have mountian goats. It has been half a century since we had huntable numbers of beers here. Do you actually believe an over the counter tag will break any of those old records now? By the way my name on this forum has zero to do with you your ego or your retarded assumptons. It was a joke between me and another person on this forum. Deflate your egocentrism and learn something. I expect an answer to my questions.

By the way for mule deer the 50's 60's and early 70's were the golden age of hunting. I know Colorado use to have some good hunting on public land. Answer my questions, or keep being a bullshit artist.

Hey DUMBERTHANSHIT

quote:

How many world records has Texas produced in the Boone and Crockett Record book? If I remember, they had the record non-typical from about 100 yrs ago, but it has been surpassed several times. Never has it produced a world record typical whitetail, a world record pronghorn, a world record mulie, a world record Desert Bighorn, a World Record MTN Lion, or a world record Jaguar, and there are not enough bears there to even talk about getting the world record.

Just where did I say that you had Rocky Mounytain Bighorns or Mountain Goats?

My list of animals is only taken from the top 20, not the entire record book. Do you mean to tell me that as a taxidermist, you don't have record books so you can score animals your clients bring in? Look them over and see how many trophies are being taken, including world records, in recent times. And remember, there can only be 1 world record at any time. With all the intensive manipulation done to deer herds, they still don't top the records.

The 60's and 70's were the "Golden Age" of mulie hunting, I'll admit that, but you stated "Back before severe over hunting wiped out a lot of the population of mega fauna in the western USA." Those dates were before the end of the 1800's not the mid to late 1900's. Look at some of the listing from the last 20 yrs or so, including those taken in the last 3 or 4. Lots of record book deer and elk are hitting the ground all over the Rocky Mountain west from public ground every season. The staes do a very good job of managing the resource.

The commonly recognized father of modern wildlife management is Aldo Leopold, not the Texas game ranchers.

Here's a bucket of straws, keep grabbing at them.

You still aren't answering my questions. Keep dodging bullshit artist. How many records were taken from zones that are over the counter tags like you complain about Texans buying recently? How many? Would you like to hunt under the same state regulations that they had in 1972?

By the way severe overhunting in the 1970's did severely harm the mule deer quality and population in Colorado. So badly yall still haven't recovered.

By the way you are still missing my point. It isn't whether Texas has better animals than COlorado. The point is private ownership and management produces better animals than government management. Hence Texas can have a 4 billion dollar a year hunting industry and Colorado doesn't.

What we basically have is a difference of opinion. In my opinion, you are an asshole with an overly active ego and in your opinion you ain't. I'm done with you because all we are doing is pissing back and forth and seeing whose dick is bigger.

Back to the original topic on this entire post, The ranchers are criminals, they violated Colorado Wildlife regulations and they will end up with huge fines and penalties. And Texas law has absolutely no bearing on the case.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Mac,

You are not telling the truth. In Texas you can purchase a public lands permit and hunt on our public land. Same as you. You proved my point on the date your trophies were taken when you posted the date 1972. What was the state doing to manage the deer herd then? Care to post those regs from 1972? Even better would you like those state regulations to be practiced in your state now? This has been my whole point. Do you actually believe over the counter tag zones are just as good hunting now as they were in 1972? I will await your answer.

I just finished an article on this buck killed by 14-yr.old Kyle Lopez on Nov. 7, 2007 on PUBLIC LAND -- Pike National Forest. It OFFICIALLY scored a whopping 306 3/8 and ...

* The largest mule deer killed anywhere in 20 years.
* Among the top 20 mule deer of all time.
* The largest mule deer killed by a youth.
* The second-largest deer of any species killed by a youth.
* The highest-scoring deer from Colorado in 35 years.
* Outside antler spread: 37 2/8 inches.
* Scoreable antler points: 43 (26 right, 17 left), more than any deer taken in Colorado.



Top Ten Non-Typical Mule Deer from Colorado:

1. 306 7/8 Montezuma, CO Lloyd Pyle 1972
2. 306 3/8 Douglas, CO Kyle Lopez 2007
3. 306 2/8 Norwood, CO Steve H. Herndon 1954
4. 304 5/8 Elk Creek, CO Andrew Daum 1886
5. 303 6/8 Eagle, CO James Austill 1962
6. 302 4/8 Paonia, CO Louis H. Huntington, Jr. 1965
7. 300 Mesa, CO George Blackmon, Jr. 1961
8. 297 5/8 Larimer, CO Jack Autrey 1941
9. 296 2/8 Mesa, CO Unknown 1981
10. 287 5/8 Montezuma, CO Travis Shippy 1985

-TONY

OUTDOOR WRITER,

Don't try to confuse this asshole with the facts. As his signature says, he is "SMARTERTHANU" and no amount of factual info will influence him.

No matter how much documentation you can provide, his story will not change. Texas this, Texas that. It's all he brings to the table and he is the only person in over 130 post to condone poaching.

I'm done with him.

Outdoor Writer,

Please do not be confused from Macs rants. I am actually a very nice person. He thinks if he changes the subject and calls me names he will be able to avoid the questions I keep asking him.

Asside from that I am curious about the deer you posted. Was this deer killed in a regulated draw area or an over the counter tag? The post does convey some of the things I have been saying here. There was a 22 year gap between yalls last top ten muley and this new one.

Mac,

I guess by you saying you are done with me I will never get an answer to my questions that prove my point???????

Over-the-counter mule deer tags haven't been available for a couple years now.

Despite the gap between top ten deer, Colorado produces outstanding bucks EVERY year that score well over 200". I know because I write about many of them.

Here's one of the smaller ones I'm working on now. The 10x8 scored 205 7/8 gross. -TONY

[QUOTE]Despite the gap between top ten deer, Colorado produces outstanding bucks EVERY year that score well over 200". I know because I write about many of them.

Now we all know that can't be right. After all, we have it on DUMBERTHAN SHIT's authority that no state wildlife agency can properly control wildlife. It take game rancher to do that. I guess he is just too lazy or incappable to look into the current record books himself. He wants you to provide all the info for him.

OutDoor Writer,

Finaly I can hear some honesty here. You just proved my point with Mr. Mac. Mr. Mac believes a bunch of Texans buying over the counter tags and showing up where he hunts is a sign Texas has ruined thier own hunting and on a fast track to ruining his. I know Colorado produces some great deer. If that weren't the case I would not have hunted there last year and I would not be hunting there this year. My point is that private land management produces higher yields of quality animals which in turn yields more revenue and a healthier herd and more secure herd for the future. Private land management is better than anything the states or federal government can offer. To give you an idea Texas had never entered a mule deer in the B&C record books until about 6 years ago. Since then I believe we have entered 4. That number may be higher now because I didn't keep very good track of what mule deer got shot last season. It took Colorado 22 years to put one more deer in thier all time top ten list. In ten years Texas practically re-wrote thier top ten list. This is what I am trying to convey about the diffference between private and public land management.

Mac,
I thought you were done with me. You just can't resist talking the trash and still not answering my questions.

quote:

It has been half a century since we had huntable numbers of beers here.

We have a lot of beers here in Texas, I think beer hunting could be possibly on of Texas's main recreational activities. But when beers start causing crop damage, I don't think you need any kind of a permit to kill a few.

quote:

By the way my name on this forum has zero to do with you your ego or your retarded assumptons.

I believe ol' smarterthanabsolutelynoone has finally made a correct statement. His name has all to do with his own ego and retarded assumptions.

quote:

The point is private ownership and management produces better animals than government management.

Yes it sure does increase the freakishly artificial looking antlers on some deer same old sh*t the more you spend the better you get. And yes, it damn sure increases the cost of hunting.

quote:

Hence Texas can have a 4 billion dollar a year hunting industry and Colorado doesn't.

Not really something to be proud of is it? How much it costs to hunt here.

I am not proud of the fact that many young people can't afford the right to enjoy and partake in their hunting heritage. But I guess for little Momma's boys who grew up in ranching families that is not a concern, he gets his, screw the rest.

If every single person in Texas could hunt for free and kill a deer how good do you think your hunting would be JTEX? Texas has 14 million people and 5 million deer. What decides who gets a deer or should we just split the deer in thirds and forget about having a deer population for next season. Money regulates the quality of hunting. I wish everyone could hunt for free. I think it would benefit our society but it isn't realistic. I worry about the future of hunting for my children like anyone else. Also if you want to look down your nose at me because I have a mom and we love each other go ahead. I am sorry you did not grow up with the same love. Maybe beer hunting will solve this problem for us.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
OutDoor Writer,

Finaly I can hear some honesty here. You just proved my point with Mr. Mac. Mr. Mac believes a bunch of Texans buying over the counter tags and showing up where he hunts is a sign Texas has ruined thier own hunting and on a fast track to ruining his. I know Colorado produces some great deer. If that weren't the case I would not have hunted there last year and I would not be hunting there this year. My point is that private land management produces higher yields of quality animals which in turn yields more revenue and a healthier herd and more secure herd for the future. Private land management is better than anything the states or federal government can offer. To give you an idea Texas had never entered a mule deer in the B&C record books until about 6 years ago. Since then I believe we have entered 4. That number may be higher now because I didn't keep very good track of what mule deer got shot last season. It took Colorado 22 years to put one more deer in thier all time top ten list. In ten years Texas practically re-wrote thier top ten list. This is what I am trying to convey about the diffference between private and public land management.

I won't comment on Texans hunting in Colorado since I guided quite a few of them on deer & elk hunts in the Weminuche Wilderness during the mid 1970s.

As for the TX mule deer making the B&C book compared to CO putting one in its Top Ten of ALL TIME, it's apples and oranges. I'm just guessing here, but I would say there are dozens of CO bucks killed annually that would outscore the few from TX that make the book. And another guess would say those top 10 from CO are well up in the B&C listings, as well.

I know of at least three CO bucks from last year that won't even get entered because they would merely reside in the lower half of the listings, and the guys that killed them could care less about seeing their names in the book. It's not much of an ego booster to say, "Hey, I have the 125th largest mulie in the B&C book."

Earlier, you made a statement about how the QUALITY of big-game hunting in the West has gone downhill because of over-hunting and poor management. That is far from being true. Yup, mule deer hunting in particular is not what it has been, but it's due to NATURE's mismanagement -- i.e. no rain. That has affected the quantity of mule deer available and the QUALITY in a lesser way because it takes forage rich in nutrional value to produce good antlers. In fact, it's why CO finally went to a drawing for permits.

That said, states such as AZ, UT and NM have still been producing record numbers of 400-inch elk and 200-in.+ mule deer every year. Even CO, which doesn't have a reputation for high-scoring elk, has put out a few super bulls in the last decade or so. And most of them are off PUBLIC land where man-made genetic manipulation and over-priced hunts do not occur. -TONY

Oh hell "Smarter than Gnu" is screwing up this thread too?

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Oh hell "Smarter than Gnu" is screwing up this thread too?

What did a poor old wildebeest ever do to you to be compared to old DTS?

Mac,

True, true. I'm sorry.

Outdoor Writer,

Are you saying the mule deer herd in Colorado is as healthy now as it was in the period of 1960 -1975 when a %40 of the best mule deer in your state were taken?

I also know this is an apple and oranges comparison, but it does show how rapidly private land management makes advances in deer quality. Like I said it was 22 years before Colorado could enter a muley in its top ten list. With Texas we have completely re-written our top ten list in less than one decade. Look at what private money has done for our desert bighorn. We now have more desert bighorn than believed to exist before Texas was a nation.
Lastly on your point for recent die offs within the deer herd were not unavoidable. With proper management seasonal, weather, food mast, and water restriction die-offs can be averted. Blaming a die-off on nature is a privelage of a government employee. A private sector biologist does not have the luxuries of excuses. With current management practices and landowner cooperation die-offs can be avoided except in the instance of disease, and extreme weather (Hurricanes, 500 year floods, sustained temperatures 50 degrees below normal).

Look I am happy that there are still some good deer there. I always believed that. In east Texas 3 years ago a regular joe hunting on a speck of low fence property shot one of the biggest non'typical whitetail this state has ever seen. Now do you know any one who will say Texas' managemnt position in the East Texas and Post Oak Savannah regions of the state produces big deer? Hell no. The deer hunting in those two regions for the most part sucks compared to the rest of the state, but once in a while some body whacks a whopper out of there. It doesn't prove good management. Trend data is proof of proper management, not single occurances.

>>Are you saying the mule deer herd in Colorado is as healthy now as it was in the period of 1960 -1975 when a %40 of the best mule deer in your state were taken?<<

First, I no longer live in CO; I'm in AZ now. Second, what verifiable information do you have to support the "%40...were taken" garbage?

>>I also know this is an apple and oranges comparison, but it does show how rapidly private land management makes advances in deer quality. <<

Good, then you shouldn't have used it to make a point; it's meaningless.

>>Like I said it was 22 years before Colorado could enter a muley in its top ten list. With Texas we have completely re-written our top ten list in less than one decade. <<

Soooo...?? Just how old is this phenominal top 10 list of mule deer in TX? I'll guess and say records of "top 10" mule deer weren't even kept much more than a decade or two ago.

It's like when they first planted the once endangered Apache trout here and opened a fishing season. Every year -- and sometimes more than once -- someone was setting a state record. Of course, that wasn't that difficult at first.

>> With proper management seasonal, weather, food mast, and water restriction die-offs can be averted. Blaming a die-off on nature is a privelage of a government employee. A private sector biologist does not have the luxuries of excuses. With current management practices and landowner cooperation die-offs can be avoided except in the instance of disease, and extreme weather (Hurricanes, 500 year floods, sustained temperatures 50 degrees below normal).<<

You are indeed a dreamer when it comes to public lands. A drought is a drought. And it doesn't have to result in a massive die-off to curtail herd numbers. What it does do is curtail herd GROWTH, however. It does it by preventing does from bearing twins DUE TO THE NUTRIONAL VALUE OF THE FOOD THEY EAT and by causing fewer fawns to survive their first year for the same reason. In states with severe winters -- something alien to TX -- bucks also suffer because they go into those months already run down from the rut. If they are malnourished before the rut, they often die.

Since most of the affected states consist largely of PUBLIC lands, the only way to correct the situation would be to put feeders and plant food plots throughout all the BLM, NF and state lands, ala TX. Of course, carrying water to grow the plots might be difficult in places. Or maybe they could just fly over those lands and spray water to promote nutritional growth, huh?

BTW, a drought lasting close to two decades IS extreme weather.

Lastly, good management is relative to the situation at hand. Here that siutation is to manage it for the masses by providing afforable hunting and opportunities and not merely to kill a record-book critter. IOW, "quality management" is in the eyes of the beholder. It doesn't necessarily equate to big antlers.

I doubt anyone in any western state other than TX would want the same type of "management" used there. Why? Because hunters in other states enjoy affordable hunting, which would disappear as it pretty much has in TX for the common man. -TONY

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If every single person in Texas could hunt for free and kill a deer how good do you think your hunting would be JTEX? Texas has 14 million people and 5 million deer. What decides who gets a deer or should we just split the deer in thirds and forget about having a deer population for next season. Money regulates the quality of hunting. I wish everyone could hunt for free. I think it would benefit our society but it isn't realistic. I worry about the future of hunting for my children like anyone else. Also if you want to look down your nose at me because I have a mom and we love each other go ahead. I am sorry you did not grow up with the same love. Maybe beer hunting will solve this problem for us.

Thank you! I am glad to see you finally admit that you are worried about the future of hunting. I am sorry that you are not worried about the future of hunting for all children though.

While I do hate to agree with anything you say I have to agree that hunting for free is not feasible in Texas anymore, but there could be many more significantly reduced hunting opprtunities subsidized by our 4 Billion dollars hunting industry.

The hunting industry in general is dooming itself by steadily increasing the cost of hunting to the detriment of recruiting new hunters.
While in general I could care less about "The Hunting Industry" as I define it, I do hate what this industry is doing to young hunter recruitment.

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Also if you want to look down your nose at me because I have a mom and we love each other go ahead.

Really, you have a Mom. What a dipshit! What I allude to is the fact that since nothing but chance let you be born into a landowning family that could pay your way through college it makes you no better qualified to determine right from wrong than any sensible person on this forum it is rather obvious that you were educated far beyond your intelligence level.

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I am sorry you did not grow up with the same love.

I am tickled to death that I didn't grow up with the kind of love you did, I had two parents and they taught me to think, work hard, make my own way and be polite, you know like "real" Texans.

And yes dadgummit you are right once more, I think a good Beer hunt could do us both a lot of good.

Antler size was brought up by you and Mac, not me. You tried to prove Colorado Deer Management with a photo of a large deer. You picked the definition not I. Now how would you like to define the perameters of a healthy deer herd now?

By the way the mule deer in west Texas and landowners manage with a drop in the bucket on a good year compared to what you call a drought. The die off a year ago in south east colorado had nothing to do with your drought, Massive snow fall (wich constitutes precipitation), or cold. And there are plenty of management tools that could have been used to save a lot of those deer. Dropping food in front of thier faces isn't the only solution. If that is the only solution Colorado could come up with they must have thought they were managing black men and not mule deer. Like I said these are excuses that government employees readily make, but in the private sector would have gotten a biologist fired. How come this drought hasn't effected the elk heard or calf survival there, but somehow it has been raviging your deer?

The best idea I have heard you come up with is the development of water on public lands. Why isn't Colorado or the US government assisting with that?

I really hope you look at this objectively and say that Colorado could be doing a better job of managing thier wildlife. Not because I care about a debate on the internet, but because that is the first thing in making something better. Complacent behavior leaves nature stagnat and at high risk of danger. Some one who always strive for a better plan and a healthier deer herd etc. will secure a bright future for an increasing number of hunters.

>>Antler size was brought up by you and Mac, not me. You tried to prove Colorado Deer Management with a photo of a large deer. <<

No, what I did was disprove your statement that Colorado no longer produces trophies.

>>The die off a year ago in south east colorado had nothing to do with your drought, Massive snow fall (wich constitutes precipitation), or cold. <<

Yup. Again, an extreme occurence that had a bad result. NOTHING, including artifical feeding, could have prevented the die-off. The same thing occurred this year near Gunnison and in Utah. Just feeding deer that are stranded in deep snows and freezing temperatures is more of a "do something, and make us feel good" solution prompted from people outside the game departments.

>>And there are plenty of management tools that could have been used to save a lot of those deer. Dropping food in front of thier faces isn't the only solution. <<

Right. They should have also dropped heaters and blankets and perhaps plowed some pathways so the deer could move a bit.

>>How come this drought hasn't effected the elk heard or calf survival there, but somehow it has been raviging your deer? <<

Because elk are grazers and deer are browsers. It takes a lot more moisture for typical deer browse to maintain its nutrional benefits. Eating plant shoots and leaves are no better than eating straw if there aren't any minerals and vitamins in them. There are several other factors that also come into play, but the above will do for now.

>>The best idea I have heard you come up with is the development of water on public lands.<<

Drinking water is NOT the problem; RAIN to promote nutritional plant growth is. They can build all the tanks and tricklers they want and it still won't help a deer herd GROW. All standing water does is keep them from dying of thirst, which isn't happening anyway.

>>I really hope you look at this objectively and say that Colorado could be doing a better job of managing thier wildlife. <<

I spend most of my working hours researching and writing about this sort of stuff. That includes talking to biologists and other game department folks in every Rocky Mt. state many times a week. All that makes me well aware of what they are or aren't doing. The one thing they can't do too effectively is grow enough deer in a petri dish to make a difference.

And if you thought about it a bit, you would realize that the more deer they could "manage," the better off they would be. After all, more game means more tags to sell to Texans, and more tags sold means more money in the bank. -TONY

P.S. did you perhaps miss this ?:

Second, what verifiable information do you have to support the "%40...were taken" garbage?

One thing I forgot to mention:

Other than a small number of Wildlife Mangement areas, which they own outright, there is very little game departments can do in the way of on-the-ground management on public land that is administered by the USFS or BLM. Even a lot of state land is off-limits in that it belongs to a different state agency and is used to a different end. Here it is called State School Trust land and is often leased for grazing with the revenue going for schools.

So don't look for the CDOW to be planting too many food plots in CO NFs anytime soon. -TONY

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Because elk are grazers and deer are browsers. It takes a lot more moisture for typical deer browse to maintain its nutrional benefits.

Actually you are incorrect. Most browse that is fead upon by deer is much higher in nutritional value than grasses.

Also I never claimed that the state of colorado did not produce trophies anymore. Where you got that idea I don't know.

You also think you should give a deer something to improve his life. This also tells me you are still conveying the same bull fead to people by government.

I also know that the state is restricted in some areas from being able to manage more. That is why I said the federal government should also be doing thier part on these lands.

I also wasn't talking about strictly drinking water. More deer tags to sell doesn't make money unless you have the quality to attract the spenders who purchase them. Do you want to sell 5 tags for 150 apiece or 1 tag for 1500. Do the math on which will give more money to improve wildlife. Higher population does not mean the herd is healthy. Think about that and look at the estimated 20000 dead deer in Southeast Colorado last year, and you will get closer to understanding a management tool that could have saved them. Not just puting food and heater blankets in front of them but actually having a long term plan to stabilize the herd.

JTEX,

I want to get this straight. You think my parents sending me to college, which by the way I worked a day and a night job, and still graduated in four years, made me someone you should dislike?????? That may be the most uneducated and bigoted idea I have ever heard here. You really need to rethink how you judge people. I work 70 hours a week every week, I have two kids, and a dog, and an old 2300 sq ft house. My old truck is paid for, and yes I shit like you do. Relax little man.

If I can I will respond in turn on Monday. I am taking my son fishing at grandmas house. I hope this will not make JTEX hate my son because it is on private property owned by grandma.

smarterthen????????

Every year for the last 5 I have been flying a bush plane part time for a local outfit here, I have met some humble and good people from Texas and a few real smart ass you fall in the later, they head up our way tell me how many WT and hogs they have shot and the number of Texas safari exploits they have done (behind the high fence i'm sure)plus how hard the hunting is in there state and how cold it gets sitting in a box blind, like I said there the exception not the rule and it's something how the few smarterthen I. they even tell me how to fly.damn some of you are sure loaded with

My day job is USAF and I fly a F-15. I don't profess to be a wildlife expert but know right from wrong, And given the choice between hunting CO. with what you call poor GM or TX. with it's year's ahead GM i'll take CO. any day