quote:

Originally posted by M16:

quote:

rather than trying to turn it into some sort of communistic class warfare

You mean like these quotes from K Stephens?

quote:

nice Rolex Presidential by the way. Whats that 18K now days?
hes sure lucky someone picked him and his deer up in that Escalade. his old ford probably couldnt handle the weight of that buck.

quote:

maybe one day i can roll around in my Escalade with my arm hanging out the window showing off my rolex with a $5500 deer in the back.

quote:

and yes thats a leupold rifleman scope $179 on sale.
and yes thats a walmart shirt and carhart pants.
and no, thats not my truck (I wish) mine is a 92 F150.

m16 - you're allowing yourself to be distracted from the actual discussion...kinda like poor ol muygrande....

Nor do either capitalize the personal pronoun "i" in any of their sentences.

Both seem to be close to the age stated by KS of 36 and the beat goes on but getting much louder and more clear.

Tas -- On my monitor your sig is 23-1/2 inches long, and it is a huge pain to read this love fest scrolling through screen after screen of it. If you can't live without any of the pictures, poetry, or IP guy, can't you at least make the pics small enough that they do not take up multiple screens?

Back to the dog fight...

Charles, glad you got your dog in this hunt. I was going to bring in Saeed to discuss the memory taken up by TS on each post.

charles - luck is smiling on you today, my friend....

today is october 9th, and it is one year after i put up the signature pic honoring the marines. i put it there in memory of a local boy who was killed in iraq. since that year is up, the pic is coming down. also gone is the little IP guy. i've been meaning to take him down for some time now and keep forgetting.

the pic of the soldier telling DaMan the way it is has quite a story behind it. you can read that story by clicking here. i'll warn you in advance, it's a long one, but i think that after reading it that you (and others here, especially the texans) will see why it's there. that picture (and the poem) will stay until my friend (who is from texas) gets home from iraq, or until DaBlueFalcon apologizes for the insults he made.

so, in the name of peace and harmony, half of your wish is granted as of now!

the bomb girl stays, and if she were any smaller she just wouldn't have the same effect.

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
Charles, glad you got your dog in this hunt. I was going to bring in Saeed to discuss the memory taken up by TS on each post.

good luck dipshit. there is no memory or bandwidth taken from AR because of the pix. in other words, you can kiss my ass, MuyMaricone.

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
charles - luck is smiling on you today, my friend....

today is october 9th, and it is one year after i put up the signature pic honoring the marines. i put it there in memory of a local boy who was killed in iraq. since that year is up, the pic is coming down. also gone is the little IP guy. i've been meaning to take him down for some time now and keep forgetting.

the pic of the soldier telling DaMan the way it is has quite a story behind it. you can read that story by clicking here. i'll warn you in advance, it's a long one, but i think that after reading it that you (and others here, especially the texans) will see why it's there. that picture (and the poem) will stay until my friend (who is from texas) gets home from iraq, or until a DaBlueFalcon apologizes for the insults he made.

so, in the name of peace and harmony, half of your wish is granted as of now!

the bomb girl stays, and if she were any smaller she just wouldn't have the same effect.

I am reasonably-well versed in the Daman dispute, although I think a smaller picture of the bird-shooting would still get your message across.

I appreciate the reductions. Even though the pictures do not use Saeed's server space or bandwidth, some would no doubt feel you are abusing the sig privileges as those on dial-up (who still exist) would have to turn off all sigs or put you on ignore to get through this thread.

There is nothing wrong with honoring our troops, living or dead, but some concessions to the reality of the length to which your sig has grown are duly appreciated.

Now back to the love fest already in progress...

at the time, it seemed to be the smallest i could make it whilst still retaining the ability to read the message to DaBlueFalcon. i have it on good authority that a new picture might be forthcoming; if by chance that a smaller size will allow the message to be read, i will gladly exchange.

no insult intended to any with dial-up. i had it myself until a month ago; the fact remains, however, that once the pix are loaded, they are retained in the temp internet files and subsequent loading is just as fast as anything else (until temp files are purged).

however, as you said, back to the debate!

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeha! You are one (or two) fine person. Should we now call in the anger management team?

You deserve no more of my time. See ya.

adios, asswipe!

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
adios, asswipe!

What happened to:



Apologies for swiping your Simpsons graphic.

quote:

m16 - you're allowing yourself to be distracted from the actual discussion...kinda like poor ol muygrande....

Not really. The actual discussion is about jealousy and class envy. It's about some fellow shooting a dink deer complaining how it's not fair that some rich hunter kills a bigger one. It's about people who have wealth either by hard work or being a member of the lucky sperm club can't be "real" hunters.

charles -

no apologies necessary, my good man. it's not my graphic; simply swiped from somewhere else - feel free to use it as you wish.

as for my final word to MuyMaricone, if you go back to the beginning of this mess, you'll find that he hasn't contributed a single constructive word to the discussion itself, and rather has chosen to simply be a member of the greek chorus (or peanut gallery, depending on one's outlook). i figured that enough was enough, and generously gave him what he so eagerly wanted.

i used to work in the hospitality industry, so by training i am rather accommodating when it comes to returning manners with manners....

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

quote:

m16 - you're allowing yourself to be distracted from the actual discussion...kinda like poor ol muygrande....

Not really. The actual discussion is about jealousy and class envy. It's about some fellow shooting a dink deer complaining how it's not fair that some rich hunter kills a bigger one. It's about people who have wealth either by hard work or being a member of the lucky sperm club can't be "real" hunters.

interesting interpretation, professor. it seemed to me that the discussion regarded mismanagement of deer populations by by greedy men looking to compensate for something small.

perhaps, as with many disagreements, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Well.......this horse has been dead for quite some time (beaten to death, of course) and I believe we have now started on the second horse.

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

quote:

m16 - you're allowing yourself to be distracted from the actual discussion...kinda like poor ol muygrande....

Not really. The actual discussion is about jealousy and class envy. It's about some fellow shooting a dink deer complaining how it's not fair that some rich hunter kills a bigger one. It's about people who have wealth either by hard work or being a member of the lucky sperm club can't be "real" hunters.

Look guys. let me really be as open an honest as i can.
If im not talking about you then why would what im about to say get you so upset?

A man, no matter how weathy, cannot buy "being" a hunter.
The idea that a huge rack somehow represents the aquirement of skill as a hunter is preposterous.
Anyone who can actually think that because they paid $15000 to shoot a huge 180"+ Whitetail they are in anyway akin to a what a hunter is, is so deluded as to be almost commical.
that person must obviously belive that others think the way they do and therefore since they are impressed by the aquisition of items (ie Rolexs and Escalades) that others will be as well.
I dont begrudge persons who have more money than I do, because I dont see the aquisition of weath as a sign of woth as a human being. why would how much money you have or dont bother me?
What does bother me (AGAIN in case you missed it), is that somewere someone is goin to see this man and associate his kill with my hunting.

Now, If that bothers you then guess what?
I must be talking about you.
Am i against rich people hunting? NO.
Am I attempting to divide hunters? NO
I am asking for you to try and understand that these "hunters" are not going to be a benifit to us. They neither care for or understand what hunting is about. They are in it for one single thing.

didnt FMC say "I like killing shit-period."?
No,"i enjoy the oudoors"
NO,"i want to carry on the traditions"
No,"i enjoy the brotherhood and the bonds of friendship i make"
what about respect for the animal?
what about respect for those who went before us?
what about gamesmanship and hunting skill and the beauty of a sunset in the woods or the sounds of gobblers in the spring morning?
what about the sweaty ride home after camp day?
or the bloody one after you clean a deer?
are you guys really willing to give up all that JUST for a big rack?
is that the kind of person you want to represent you?

My brother, I dont envy you...
I pity you.
You are selling yourself short by allowing these pimps to make you think what your getting is real.
I cant imagine why i would ever get up in the dark of the AM if i knew that i had a 99% chance of killing a deer.
I usually only have about a 25% chance of even seeing one. I guess thats why i respect them.

Speaking for myself only,for the life of me I cant see how all you guys who profess to be skilled hunters would be satisfied shooting semi tame or at least captive deer.
If you went to a fish farm,would you catch one out of the trout pond and call it a trophy? How big a pond?
If your so well to do,and dont have to spend your time working to raise your family,wouldn't you rather go some where and see if you COULD outsmart a trophy,rather than keep asassinating one on the way to the trough?
And I really dont mean to pick on Texas,you just keep sticking your chin out.
I see plenty of people here in Minnesota baiting(Illegal)and getting away with it ,but for me the challenge is getting one by the rules,not getting one any way possible.I could cheat many different ways but I would always know.And no one else really matters.

quote:

Not really. The actual discussion is about jealousy and class envy. It's about some fellow shooting a dink deer complaining how it's not fair that some rich hunter kills a bigger one. It's about people who have wealth either by hard work or being a member of the lucky sperm club can't be "real" hunters.

Class envy? Nah, I don't think so. I think KS and others have asked some very valid questions. I don't really care for the way he asked some of them, but who am I to judge? I dont think I could stand to go deer hunting knowing that I most likely wouldn't even see a deer, I just don't have the attention span. But I do love to watch wildlife. I love to take pictures and video tape them. Oh yes, I live for the culmination, the shot!



didnt FMC say "I like killing shit-period."?
No,"i enjoy the oudoors"
NO,"i want to carry on the traditions"
No,"i enjoy the brotherhood and the bonds of friendship i make"
what about respect for the animal?
what about respect for those who went before us?
what about gamesmanship and hunting skill and the beauty of a sunset in the woods or the sounds of gobblers in the spring morning?
what about the sweaty ride home after camp day?
or the bloody one after you clean a deer?
are you guys really willing to give up all that JUST for a big rack?
is that the kind of person you want to represent you?

Maybe, just maybe, that is the point KS has been trying to explain the whole time. I have understood that and I think many others have also. But watching the same deer behind a high high fence for several years ( not my words, but the story from the shooter ) is more like growing vegetables and waiting until they are ripe for harvest, that is not my style. Hey, epiphany, maybe that's why everyone is using the word HARVEST. Because maybe that's what they are doing, harvesting, not hunting.

I have to wonder why the subject of high fencing and deer farming gets such an emotional response?
Is it vested interest? Or do these people really believe it is the right thing to do?


Come on guys no thoughts or opinions on the following? Nothing?

I agree with you KS question was a good one. Why doesn't B&C or P&Y recognize high fence animals? Nobody wants to say it but these two organizations don't consider them taken by fair chase. Simple answer, no emotion no name calling.

I have a hard time even figuring out if these animals should be considered as "natural" deer. Selective breeding, imported genetics, manipulated genetics, supplemental feeding and such ( more gray area ). Comparing a true South Texas brush fed buck to an Iowa cornfield buck ( more gray area )both produce incredible racks but, for the sake of argument, is the buck eating in the cornfield completely natural. What were the bucks in Iowa like before agriculture?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
But watching the same deer behind a high high fence for several years ( not my words, but the story from the shooter ) is more like growing vegetables and waiting until they are ripe for harvest, that is not my style. Hey, epiphany, maybe that's why everyone is using the word HARVEST. Because maybe that's what they are doing, harvesting, not hunting.

This has NOTHING to do with high fencing!! If you're hunting on a low fenced place that is at least 500-1,000 acres.........you'll be seeing the same deer year after year. Whitetail deer don't range very much at all. The only deer that will move out of its home range is a buck during the rut (where they may move several miles outside their normal territory), but that still depends on the deer. Many bucks still never leave their area. Most of my hunting has been in the Texas Hill Country. I have hunted places where I could go back to one of my "secret" spots and see the same bucks EVERY time, day after day after day. I swear some of them probably never leave their little 40-50 acre area. So, what I'm trying to say is.........the high fence really has nothing to do with "watching the same deer for several years and waiting till they get old to shoot them". That's nothing to be ashamed of, it's called GOOD MANAGEMENT. I've hunted a place where I watched one particular buck grow from a yearling to a 4 year old (1,000 acres low-fenced near Menard, TX). I would see him dozens of times each year, and I would see him every year.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
But watching the same deer behind a high high fence for several years ( not my words, but the story from the shooter ) is more like growing vegetables and waiting until they are ripe for harvest, that is not my style. Hey, epiphany, maybe that's why everyone is using the word HARVEST. Because maybe that's what they are doing, harvesting, not hunting.

This has NOTHING to do with high fencing!! If you're hunting on a low fenced place that is at least 500-1,000 acres.........you'll be seeing the same deer year after year. Whitetail deer don't range very much at all. The only deer that will move out of its home range is a buck during the rut (where they may move several miles outside their normal territory), but that still depends on the deer. Many bucks still never leave their area. Most of my hunting has been in the Texas Hill Country. I have hunted places where I could go back to one of my "secret" spots and see the same bucks EVERY time, day after day after day. I swear some of them probably never leave their little 40-50 acre area. So, what I'm trying to say is.........the high fence really has nothing to do with "watching the same deer for several years and waiting till they get old to shoot them". That's nothing to be ashamed of, it's called GOOD MANAGEMENT. I've hunted a place where I watched one particular buck grow from a yearling to a 4 year old (1,000 acres low-fenced near Menard, TX). I would see him dozens of times each year, and I would see him every year.

Why the high fence then? If the deer will just stay put, why spend the cash to fence the deer in? Is it simply an issue of protecting your investment or limiting access?

quote:

Originally posted by Barutmt:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
But watching the same deer behind a high high fence for several years ( not my words, but the story from the shooter ) is more like growing vegetables and waiting until they are ripe for harvest, that is not my style. Hey, epiphany, maybe that's why everyone is using the word HARVEST. Because maybe that's what they are doing, harvesting, not hunting.

This has NOTHING to do with high fencing!! If you're hunting on a low fenced place that is at least 500-1,000 acres.........you'll be seeing the same deer year after year. Whitetail deer don't range very much at all. The only deer that will move out of its home range is a buck during the rut (where they may move several miles outside their normal territory), but that still depends on the deer. Many bucks still never leave their area. Most of my hunting has been in the Texas Hill Country. I have hunted places where I could go back to one of my "secret" spots and see the same bucks EVERY time, day after day after day. I swear some of them probably never leave their little 40-50 acre area. So, what I'm trying to say is.........the high fence really has nothing to do with "watching the same deer for several years and waiting till they get old to shoot them". That's nothing to be ashamed of, it's called GOOD MANAGEMENT. I've hunted a place where I watched one particular buck grow from a yearling to a 4 year old (1,000 acres low-fenced near Menard, TX). I would see him dozens of times each year, and I would see him every year.

Why the high fence then? If the deer will just stay put, why spend the cash to fence the deer in? Is it simply an issue of protecting your investment or limiting access?

i really think it is deeper.
its really more about ensuring success of the "hunter" so you can sell him a product.

It benifits them to have a certain genteic trait, big antlers and to minimize intelligence and the inclination of mature bucks to turn 100% nocturnal.
add these triats with the constant flow of information from helicopter surveys and hundreds of game cameras and its not hard to pattern the deer down to a particular stand and time of day.
this ensures the guide can place a client on a stand and pretty much guarantee that the chosen buck will arrive.
that means success for the "hunter" and the ranch.
some will argue that no matter how low the goal and how wide the hoop that its still basketball.

quote:

Why the high fence then? If the deer will just stay put, why spend the cash to fence the deer in? Is it simply an issue of protecting your investment or limiting access?

That was just one persons answer buy it is a tapdance around the issue.

IMHO the only reason to high fence is to keep the deer on your property. To manipulate them like you would livestock. If you mean limiting access by keeping people out a simple fence provides a barrier and it's already illegal to trespass. And no fence is imune to wire cutters, bad guys want in, bad guys get in. Now if you mean to limit access to the game animals by containing them and not allowing them to move off of a property freely....now that's what a high fence is for.

quote:

Now if you mean to limit access to the game animals by containing them and not allowing them to move off of a property freely....now that's what a high fence is for.

That is part of the reason. Another reason is to keep the neighbors deer off your property. Not everyone wants to do the hard work of shooting enough does to keep the herd within the carrying capacity of the land. So they leave it up to the neighbors to handle this chore. I have just such a neighbor who should be shooting 200 deer a year but only kills around 60. I wind up personally having to shoot on average 35 deer a year where if I high fenced I wouldn't have to kill but 20 or so.

quote:

That is part of the reason. Another reason is to keep the neighbors deer off your property.

the deer do not belong to you and do not belong to your neighbor, unless they are livestock. if that is the case, then call them that. invote folks to come slaughter your livestock.

quote:

the deer do not belong to you and do not belong to your neighbor, unless they are livestock.

Thats true. They belong to the state.
I just control the access.

quote:

invote folks to come slaughter your livestock.

Consider yourself invited. I have some management hunts available. The access fee is $3000.00 for a three day hunt for a deer scoring up to 125 B&C. Between 125 and 140 add $100.00 per inch.

I have some management hunts available. The access fee is $3000.00 for a three day hunt for a deer scoring up to 125 B&C. Between 125 and 140 add $100.00 per inch.

Is it more expensive to access those larger deer?

quote:

Is it more expensive to access those larger deer?

Yes it is. More antlers to measure. But if you prefer you can have a management hunt up to 140 B&C for $4500 all inclusive.

JTEX. To me the main issue before this thread got hijacked was about manners. Frankly bad manners.

1. Nice deer.
2. Congratulations
3. Keep your badmouthing to yourself. It serves no purpose other than to make you look like a horses ass.

Frankly to say you don't deserve that deer/your deer sucks and my deer is great because I killed him with a rock or whatever you are saying comes across as petty, envious, sour grapes whether or not you can justify your position or hell even if you are right. You have every right to disagree with the manner in which it was hunted- absolutely. But why be negative? Hell, you know what, for arguments sake: "you're right about high fences.......but did you have to really shit on that guy's parade.........wasn't that a little uncalled for..."

Frankly it comes across as being a sour pussed gripey bitch. I guess there's always some unhappy person who for some perverse reason takes great pleasure in being negative and taking down someone else.

It boils down to bad manners: if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all.......bitch (an ode to my wife).

I hunt because I enjoy it. I don't care about tradition, I like killing shit it's fun. If you bow hunt/muzzle load or whatever bacause of tradition, good for you I am genuinely happy for you-period. They are not my cup of tea, and I won't get into any argument about the ethics of clean kills & bowhunting etc because I don't bowhunt and I really don't care that you do. If it makes you happy so what........more power to you. Congratulations.

P.S. As far as the signature is concerned, keep the babe and those nice titties.

quote:

I just control the access.

exactly! thank you!

quote:

Consider yourself invited. I have some management hunts available. The access fee is $3000.00 for a three day hunt for a deer scoring up to 125 B&C. Between 125 and 140 add $100.00 per inch.

i sincerely appreciate the invite, but i'll have to pass. the does up here are twice as big as most of the bucks down there, and i simply can't justify spending that much money on a german shepherd with freaky antlers...and someone's pet at that. if i do make it down there one day, i've got an offer to hunt there for 3k$/3days less and 100$ less per-inch.

since you bring it up, however, i do have a question:

do you think it is ethical (as a business man) to charge according to b&c standards when b&c wouldn't touch one of those racks with a 10-foot pole? no criticism implied, but compared to hunting and business ethics i was raised on, it seems rather hypocritical.

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
do you think it is ethical (as a business man) to charge according to b&c standards when b&c wouldn't touch one of those racks with a 10-foot pole? no criticism implied, but compared to hunting and business ethics i was raised on, it seems rather hypocritical.

Not ethics at all.

Just standardizing how/what to charge.

As you probably know every man's wife has a different ruler when it comes to the standard 10 inches.

quote:

Just standardizing how/what to charge.

i disagree. it seems to me that it is an attempt (deliberately or otherwise, by the rancher or the hunter) to try and establish some legitimacy to his "hunt" by saying, "i've got myself a 185 b&c buck oon my last hunt!" the truth is that he didn't HUNT it, and b&c won't touch it. what he did was no different than going to a market in hong kong and picking out a chicken for dinner. would that be hunting?

quote:

if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all.......bitch (an ode to my wife).

i'll be sure to tell your wife you said that.

quote:

That is part of the reason. Another reason is to keep the neighbors deer off your property. Not everyone wants to do the hard work of shooting enough does to keep the herd within the carrying capacity of the land. So they leave it up to the neighbors to handle this chore. I have just such a neighbor who should be shooting 200 deer a year but only kills around 60. I wind up personally having to shoot on average 35 deer a year where if I high fenced I wouldn't have to kill but 20 or so.

Yep, another one of the great things going on. This one Laddie, has to or is it gets to, shoot 35 extra deer a year. I know a lot of people that can't afford to hunt. But since 'ol M16 controls the access he gets to shoot 35 deer a year! And he says this proudly???? This is what I was talking about in other threads. What do people that PROFIT off of our natural resources give back? Why wouldn't a portion of those surplus deer ( hunts ) have to be donated to the state for under privledged kids, or kids being raised by single Moms, hell, I don't know but something....
There are plenty of young people that would like to experience hunting that can't for whatever reason something like this could give them an opportunity. I do not know of one child that was taken hunting that turned into an anti hunter.

what IS happening to those extra three dozen deer on every ranch each year? are they getting eaten? are they teaching a young one to hunt? are they just being tossed into a landfill? are the coyotes eating good?

sincere question.

quote:

do you think it is ethical (as a business man) to charge according to b&c standards when b&c wouldn't touch one of those racks with a 10-foot pole?

Actually that is not the case here. I have six miles of low fence.

By the way here is a picture of my B&C buck that wasn't killed on a high fence ranch or using a guide.

quote:

What do people that PROFIT off of our natural resources give back?

Profit? You gotta be kiddin me. Try a loss of on average of 150k a year for the last three years.

quote:

Why wouldn't a portion of those surplus deer ( hunts ) have to be donated to the state for under privledged kids, or kids being raised by single Moms, hell, I don't know but something

Nothing stopping you from buying your own ranch and doing just that.

quote:

There are plenty of young people that would like to experience hunting that can't for whatever reason something like this could give them an opportunity.

I have plenty of family members with kids who get to hunt my ranch. You must be a democrat trying to confiscate other peoples property.

[quote]quote:
What do people that PROFIT off of our natural resources give back?


Profit? You gotta be kiddin me. Try a loss of on average of 150k a year for the last three years.

Okay ya' got me there. How about I re-phrase it to say " people that are selling a natural resource " that belongs to the state.

quote:
Why wouldn't a portion of those surplus deer ( hunts ) have to be donated to the state for under privledged kids, or kids being raised by single Moms, hell, I don't know but something


Nothing stopping you from buying your own ranch and doing just that.

No there sure isn't but I am glad to hear that you are getting other young people involved in hunting.

quote:
There are plenty of young people that would like to experience hunting that can't for whatever reason something like this could give them an opportunity.


I have plenty of family members with kids who get to hunt my ranch. You must be a democrat trying to confiscate other peoples property.[/quote

Oh now your getting nasty are you..LOL. No but seriously. I believe 100% in landowners rights. I also believe in a free market economy. But I don't believe in using a natural resource that belongs to everyone in the state without paying something in restitution for it. Whether we are talking fishing guides, shrimpers, loggers or miners on public lands or waterfowl outfitters, deer oufitters and guides on private land.

By the way that's a heck of a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
i disagree. it seems to me that it is an attempt (deliberately or otherwise, by the rancher or the hunter) to try and establish some legitimacy to his "hunt" by saying, "i've got myself a 185 b&c buck oon my last hunt!" the truth is that he didn't HUNT it, and b&c won't touch it. what he did was no different than going to a market in hong kong and picking out a chicken for dinner. would that be hunting?

We'll agree to disagree.

185in is 185in. Whether or what book it makes is a different issue.

A more honest view from a pennsylvania deer farmer,with by the way,the biggest recorded whitetail ever.
http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/trophybucks/tr_1103goliath/

quote:

what IS happening to those extra three dozen deer on every ranch each year? are they getting eaten? are they teaching a young one to hunt? are they just being tossed into a landfill? are the coyotes eating good?

Every one of them gets gutted, skinned, and nearly all of them are given to people who look forward every year to getting a supply of meat they otherwise couldn't afford. There are a lot of people on fixed incomes who love venison. My cleaning facility has electric winches and saws so it takes my an average of ten minutes from start to finish. The coyotes and hogs eat good at the gutpile. That is unless they get caught. Wasting game is taken very seriouly in Texas and I do believe it can be a felony.