Gents:
I am pleased Mark came on here but it was long over due. I honestly believe if he came here 13 days ago a lot of negativity would not have manifested itself.
What Mark said is true: he has done me no wrong and I didn't negotiate any of the contract. That said, it is also true I questioned part of the contract and was not offered any negotiation, just a "trust me" and "I am not going to screw you"--both of which are outside of the contract language (which is 100% of the agreement) and totally void as to any legality of the contract.

It would be nice to be able to have a say in the contract should unexpected events rise, but the contract gives 100% of the decisions to the agent--the client gets zip.

I appreciate Mark coming on here but I will never book with him due to the language of the contract: it gives him every legal opportunity to screw me but verbally he promises he never will. That does not make sense to me. It's unfortunate as I have a bit of hunting to go before I die and leave my double rifles to Shootaway. The hunt Mark offered to me was exactly what I wanted. The one and only reason I declined was due to the one-sided contract. This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania). Sometimes an agent would be nice to take care of all things. I have never used one in 20 years and it looks as if I will continue on the same path.

Cheers and thanks all for your input here.
Cal

From Frank's itty, bitty short contract:

". . . we cannot accept liability or responsibility for any loss, injury or death that may occur to the Client through any means whatsoever."

Better cross this outfitter off the list of possible outfitters.

Just from personal experience, I have only used an agent on one hunt, the Musk Ox/Central Barren Ground Caribou hunt I did in 2000.

Everything else I have worked with the outfitter/guide.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
So if I understand the progress of this thread correctly someone/many here will now go to the Hunts Offered threads and rightfully demand that all outfitters and agents using a free public advertising forum such as this openly declare and post ALL formalities related to the services they are freely advertising, right ?

Some people will see only what they want to see. The takeaway I see here is that an agent solicited business off a member of AR and when the person that the agent hit up had questions regarding a 10+ page contract for a $5000 elk hunt the agent said he wouldn't book him if he asked for opinions about the lengthy contract on the website the agent was using, free of charge, to book the hunt.

The very nature of a site like this is to educate yourself. I have never had anybody sign a contract but if I did I would encourage him to understand it in its entirety before signing if he had questions. If you book hunts on a forum such as this you have to expect that your business will be talked about. This can be a positive and this can be a negative but the way I see things he who owes nothing, fears nothing. For the agent to feel like he can book hunts and make a living on a free forum but the member that he solicits business from can't use the same forum to his benefit to be able to understand what's going on is utterly ridiculous IMO

I don't care about the contract. It's the principle of the matter on the rest of it that leaves me shaking my head

quote:

I was willing to "man up" and apologize if I was wrong, but , I wasn't wrong.

And the agent came on here and ADMITTED his part.

What If Mr. Pappas had came on here and clearly stated that the ACCUSED party was NOT the person in question?

Look things seem to have worked themselves out somewhat, my concern is, in the future are agents/outfitters/guides, going to be REQUIRED to post all of their contract information on this site and get approval from the Kangaroo Court of the Accurate Reloading site, BEFORE they can offer hunts?

quote:

What If Mr. Pappas had came on here and clearly stated that the ACCUSED party was NOT the person in question?

Well, damn, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle, but she doesn't and he didn't. WTF world are you trying to live in?

I repeat, I would have apologized, but there was a very, very, small chance I was wrong. I very rarely post anything that I am not sure of, besides opinions, of course. Anytime I'm wrong, I will freely admit it and apologize if necessary.

In the long interims, I suggest you study up on the meaning of "accusation".

And, further, just like Calpappas said, if MY had come out on this thread early on and simply said that he uses that form to protect himself from litigious clients but tries to be fair, this thread would probably have been a lot shorter and he wouldn't be covered in shit IMO. But he didn't and is as I see it.

A stated GUESS is an accusation. What if YOU had been wrong? Would you apologize?

Just think about that for one second before responding.

Had Mr. Pappas came on here and openly stated that the person people suspected was NOT the agent in question, what would your answer have been then.

You were right with your suspicions, What If You Had Been Wrong?

Try putting aside your personal hatred and simply answer the question. If you had been proven wrong would you have apologized for your comments?

Damn, you really are dense. It wasn't a guess, it was a deduction.

Apparently you're also intellectually challenged. How many times do you have to read something to understand it? I have said multiple times that I would have apologized IF I was wrong, but THE FACT is that I wasn't. I guess not being wrong is REALLY a difficult concept for you to grasp. Try.....

AFA as your "hatred" throw out comment, I don't hate anyone in this thread, nor, for that matter, do I hate anyone you've ever met or heard of. OTOH, I don't suffer fools gladly and you make yourself one of them with stupid posts like the above.

Gentlemen,

I read the contract - on my screen it comes as a 4 page document, may be printed it is much longer.

And as much as I hate to say this, it is not as bad as the contract offered by TGT. May be it is a sign of our times that a company with a fantastic reputation as TGT has to go to the extent of writing such a one sided contract.

As many of you know, I have been hunting with Roy Vincent since the early 80's. My hunt was booked with Klinebergers in Seattle. I just walked into their office, and asked for any available hunt for the following month.

No contract was offered to me - I suppose in those days not everyone and his dog was suing everyone else and HIS dog.

The Klinebergers went out of their way to make everything as easy as possible. Going as far as arranging for the transport of two second hand rifles I bought for the hunt.

Alan was about 8 or 10 at that time.

A few years ago he worked for TGT, and we booked a hunt with them in Tanzania. All my dealings have been with Alan - I never dealt with anyone in TGT.

He brought me a contract, which was something I would never even dream of signing, as it was so one sided.

We had a long discussion about it, and the result was if I did not sign it, I cannot hunt with them.

Alan assured me that no matter what the contract says, he has the utmost trust in TGT, and he will be conducting the hunt, and we should all expect nothing but what we usually get hunting with him and his father.

I signed the contract, and we hunted a number of times with them without any regrets whatsoever.

And just as Mark has mentioned in his PM to me, he has helped clients when they have come across a specific problem, and dealt with it on a case by case basis.

I understand that is exactly the case with TGT - in fact, in some cases they have gone out of their way to help their clients.

What does this tell us?

I had a friend, who is a local lawyer look at the contract. He knows nothing about hunting.

He said "It is an American contract worded to meet conditions in America"

He then went on to say that even medical contracts, which are valid world wide for travelers, have an exception clause if one is in the US - because of the tendency of people suing each other at the drop of a hat.

Sorry Sir, I am not as stupid as you think.

Point is, are agents/outfitters/guides going to have to post their contracts in the future and get a GROUP consensus from individuals like you, BEFORE being able to actually offer hunts on this site?

Your definition of ACCUSATION is different than the dictionaries definition!

Definition of Accusation from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

quote:

: a claim that someone has done something wrong or illegal : a charge that someone has committed a fault or crime

Even though you were proved out to be correct in your estimation, your estimation was still an accusation., as was everyone else's, UNTIL the individual in question made his response.

Had you and the rest been proven wrong, how could you or any of the others repair the damage done to the individuals credibility due to your accusations?

How much of yours and some others attitudes toward the individual in question influenced your stance on the subject?

You're an idiot. And I'm no longer going to engage in a battle of wits with the helpless. It wastes my time.

And, let me add, worst of all, you're repetitive and boring.

Precisely Saeed. It is litigious clients that have given us the contract verbiage that predominates these contracts. And who can blame the agents and outfitters, it is not a high margin business and one bad client necessitating hiring a lawyer, etc. can negate a bunch of contracts with non-problematic clients. So what do the agents and outfitters do . . . logically they try to protect themselves with contractual language designed to guard against the occasional litigious client that gives all clients a bad name. As Pogo said, we have met the enemy and the enemy is us . . . yet we want to make it seem like the agents and outfitters are the problem.

quote:

You're an idiot. And I'm no longer going to engage in a battle of wits with the helpless. It wastes my time.

I would not have expected any more or any less from you.

Do we really have to start having a go at each other?

So much for my prior post about all of us being gentlemen. Let's get back to the topic at hand and the contracts.
Cheers, mates.,
Cal

quote:

Do we really have to start having a go at each other?

I would like to think we didn't.

1. thanks cal for starting the thread it WAS an educational one for me so in the future if i ever get to go on a guided hunt I have some expectations of what to expect or not-expect from a contract be it through a booking agent or the guide directly and also now know that that contract may NOT be a take it or leave it written in stone contract

2. thank you Mark for coming on and explaining your side, your side of things does make sense to me. I see no reason for someone like Cal not to come on here and ask about the contract but also see no reason for you or ANY other agent/guide to disclose their complete contract that they have paid good money to have drawn up for them (even if I don't agree with the contract, that is between you and client to decide what stays/goes)

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Do we really have to start having a go at each other?

I would like to think we didn't.

CHC......... Randal I knew where this topic would go from Cal's very first post. Further more, I doubt that if Mark came on earlier it would have made any difference as it never has in the past. There are way too many on here with chips on their shoulders who love to lash out because they can.

For me, what I learn from some topics is usually overshadowed by the obnoxious and rude behaviour of a few. As an outfitter, there are quite a few on this site that I would not even consider taking on as a client due to their behaviour on this site. I just don't need money that bad........ odds are if they act like an ass on here, they are probably that way in real life. Who needs it.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

CHC......... Randal I knew where this topic would go from Cal's very first post. Further more, I doubt that if Mark came on earlier it would have made any difference as it never has in the past. There are way too many on here with chips on their shoulders who love to lash out because they can.

For me, what I learn from some topics is usually overshadowed by the obnoxious and rude behaviour of a few. As an outfitter, there are quite a few on this site that I would not even consider taking on as a client due to their behaviour on this site. I just don't need money that bad........ odds are if they act like an ass on here, they are probably that way in real life. Who needs it.

Absolutely spot on.

I warned of this shit storm but............

How do we benefit from all of this?

I can't recall one single thread (but correct me if I'm wrong) that involved Mark Young in a negative way here on AR until this one.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I warned of this shit storm but............

How do we benefit from all of this?

I can't recall one single thread (but correct me if I'm wrong) that involved Mark Young in a negative way here on AR until this one.

Made me aware I should not just "sign the contract and trust me", as much as I want to. I appreciate Mike Jines teaching me that.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Do we really have to start having a go at each other?

I would like to think we didn't.

CHC......... Randal I knew where this topic would go from Cal's very first post. Further more, I doubt that if Mark came on earlier it would have made any difference as it never has in the past. There are way too many on here with chips on their shoulders who love to lash out because they can.

For me, what I learn from some topics is usually overshadowed by the obnoxious and rude behaviour of a few. As an outfitter, there are quite a few on this site that I would not even consider taking on as a client due to their behaviour on this site. I just don't need money that bad........ odds are if they act like an ass on here, they are probably that way in real life. Who needs it.

Oh yeah, poor Mark Young, he's so picked on.....

Just to be clear, the facts are....

1) he sent Cal Pappas a contract that NOT ONE person in here thinks is fair to both parties and NOT ONE person in here says he would sign it as offered.

2) probably because he knew it was so unfair, he refused to book for Cal Pappas if he mentioned the contract on AR.

3) after Cal Pappas does post about it on AR WITHOUT naming Mark Young, Young waits nearly 2 weeks to respond because he is so concerned about the "hassle" of having his unfair contract exposed to public scrutiny.......


Yeah, poor Mark Young, he is such a victim of people with "chips on their shoulder", they must have written that contract for him........

I try my best not to make an actual judgement call about anyone and what kind of person they are or may be, based upon comments/responses made on inter net forums/chat rooms/bulletin boards.

I know a lot of folks on the various sites I have participated on, that openly admit that they do judge people based solely on their inter net interactions.

I just never have believed that to be a fair way to truly assess a person's true character. Guess I am old fashioned that way, one of the finest men I have had the honor of knowing told me something over 40 years ago that I have hung on to.

He and I were talking one afternoon and I made a comment about someone, based on a comment about that person that a third party had made.

My friend, who was in his late 60's early 70's at that time asked me if I had ever had any actual Face To Face dealings with the person I had made the comment about. When I told him I hadn't and was simply going on comments made by a third party, he got real serious and told me that I should NEVER judge anyone and what kind of a person they are until AFTER I had ACTUALLY inter acted with them, Face To Face.

This is just me, others mileage can/will and does vary, but over the time I have been participating on such sites as this one, but to me it seems to be a whole lot harder to "Get Along" with people on these type sites, than people in normal everyday interactions.

I have met quite a few folks off of the various sites I have been on over the years several I still correspond with, some including folks off of here I have hunted with and unfortunately some from a couple of other sites that I share a mutual hatred with, which will never change.

Skyline, I understand your comments and there are some off of this site and various others, that I definitely would have reservations about meeting in person, but as that old man taught me that day so many years back judging a person by hear say or imagined evidence, cheats the person being judged and the person doing the judging.

Life for me is too short for that. Sorry for being so long winded with this response, but I simply believe life is too short and the Real World we all live in is tough enough as it is to pass up meeting new people/making new acquaintances to hold grudges based solely on inter net interactions.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I warned of this shit storm but............

How do we benefit from all of this?

I can't recall one single thread (but correct me if I'm wrong) that involved Mark Young in a negative way here on AR until this one.

Made me aware I should not just "sign the contract and trust me", as much as I want to. I appreciate Mike Jines teaching me that.

But I'm betting that you knew not to do any of that before this thread came along without any debate with Mike

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I warned of this shit storm but............

How do we benefit from all of this?

I can't recall one single thread (but correct me if I'm wrong) that involved Mark Young in a negative way here on AR until this one.

Made me aware I should not just "sign the contract and trust me", as much as I want to. I appreciate Mike Jines teaching me that.

But I'm betting that you knew not to do any of that before this thread came along without any debate with Mike

Then you would be betting wrong Ted. I already admitted to signing a couple of contract similar or worse than the one noted. And it WAS on a trust me.

Everything turned out fine except the pre-Andrew hunt contract period. I don't put the blame on Mark for that. He was working elsewhere then.

I'm glad everything worked out in those cases

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
From Frank's itty, bitty short contract:

". . . we cannot accept liability or responsibility for any loss, injury or death that may occur to the Client through any means whatsoever."

Better cross this outfitter off the list of possible outfitters.

You beat me to it, Mike. I've been reading along this entire thread and stayed out of it because I had no dog in the fight. BUT...when I saw that I thought to myself, that one itty-bitty short sentence says everything that the "offending" contract says in eleven pages.

And yes, by implication, the direction of the reaction to Mark's contract was indeed an "accusation" that he is doing or has done WRONG in using his contract has he sees fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

CHC......... Randal I knew where this topic would go from Cal's very first post. Further more, I doubt that if Mark came on earlier it would have made any difference as it never has in the past. There are way too many on here with chips on their shoulders who love to lash out because they can.

For me, what I learn from some topics is usually overshadowed by the obnoxious and rude behaviour of a few. As an outfitter, there are quite a few on this site that I would not even consider taking on as a client due to their behaviour on this site. I just don't need money that bad........ odds are if they act like an ass on here, they are probably that way in real life. Who needs it.

I have been a member of this forum for a while and have done a fair amount of custom machining and micro TiG welding for other members......99% of those I have never met

I have given several members that I consider friends a special piece of custom machining just this past year.

The 1 oz. Stainless Steel Truly Remarkable Frankenstud Slingamarig rifle sling shoulder strap pack apparatus......that's a mouthfull

Anything from custom handloading components to one of a kind rifle parts......many times pro bono.....often not even asking for return shipping

But I must admit to turning down more than just a few paying jobs (one just yesterday) based on the strong opinions the member had shown on AR threads through the years.

Sorry to stray away from the topic

Wouldn't the World and America especially be a sad and boring place, if everyone believed the exact same way and completely agree on all subjects, all the time?

Over the years I saw a few inter net sites that tried to operate that way, by banning anyone that didn't toe the party line on any topic. They did not last long

Hunters and Gun Owners as a group are strongly opinionated individuals, because they are passionate about the things that they enjoy in their lives, and after all, as can be seen on this site the ONLY two things all of us or the vast majority of us that spend time on here Really/Actually have in common are our love of guns and hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
So if I understand the progress of this thread correctly someone/many here will now go to the Hunts Offered threads and rightfully demand that all outfitters and agents using a free public advertising forum such as this openly declare and post ALL formalities related to the services they are freely advertising, right ?

Some people will see only what they want to see. The takeaway I see here is that an agent solicited business off a member of AR and when the person that the agent hit up had questions regarding a 10+ page contract for a $5000 elk hunt the agent said he wouldn't book him if he asked for opinions about the lengthy contract on the website the agent was using, free of charge, to book the hunt.

The very nature of a site like this is to educate yourself. I have never had anybody sign a contract but if I did I would encourage him to understand it in its entirety before signing if he had questions. If you book hunts on a forum such as this you have to expect that your business will be talked about. This can be a positive and this can be a negative but the way I see things he who owes nothing, fears nothing. For the agent to feel like he can book hunts and make a living on a free forum but the member that he solicits business from can't use the same forum to his benefit to be able to understand what's going on is utterly ridiculous IMO

I don't care about the contract. It's the principle of the matter on the rest of it that leaves me shaking my head

"For the agent to feel like he can book hunts and make a living on a free forum but the member that he solicits business from can't use the same forum to his benefit to be able to understand what's going on is utterly ridiculous IMO"
I don't care about the contract. It's the principle of the matter on the rest of it that leaves me shaking my head.

That sentence Drummond posted is IMHO all that needs to be said regarding this entire thread and it also leave me shaking my head as well!

A number of outfitters and agents that advertise hunts on the forum commented on this thread, perhaps in the interest of transparency and considering that these contracts are apparently everyone's business, having weighed in on the thread already they will post copies of their contracts for review? After all, we are simply trying to advance the understanding of what to expect in booking contracts.

I appreciate the sarcasm of an educated man.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania).

If the other outfitters and agents won't come and play, maybe you could post the agreements for these hunts for the collective evaluation of the group.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania).

If the other outfitters and agents won't come and play, maybe you could post the agreements for these hunts for the collective evaluation of the group.

My contract in its entirety.....



Any questions?

Maybe I'm an idiot for not having one but I have never had a problem doing handshake deals

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
A number of outfitters and agents that advertise hunts on the forum commented on this thread, perhaps in the interest of transparency and considering that these contracts are apparently everyone's business, having weighed in on the thread already they will post copies of their contracts for review? After all, we are simply trying to advance the understanding of what to expect in booking contracts.

Still think it would be best if you would just write one for all AR members. After all, you have had vast experience by altering every contract offered to you by your own admission.

Like I said, it's the most important thing I learned on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania).

If the other outfitters and agents won't come and play, maybe you could post the agreements for these hunts for the collective evaluation of the group.

My contract in its entirety.....



Any questions?

Yes, Why did you sell your Gen II 12 Valve?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania).

If the other outfitters and agents won't come and play, maybe you could post the agreements for these hunts for the collective evaluation of the group.

It never ends, Mike. One has already been posted here. One is a verbal and an email of the cost and date--that's all (for my elephant this July). Tell me, what are you digging for? And, while we are at it, I know my posting here has annoyed you but tell me who else is at fault here, in your opinion? I know I am. Is it the length of the contract or is it the contents of the contract? It must be one or the other as you mentioned you would not have signed it either. As to the disclaimer, is it the clients who bring the suits or is it the lawyers who file the suits? After all, generally one can't sue anyone without a lawyer--I mean it's their business to do so. I know this thread has riled you quite a bit and so I'm sorry to have offended you. I'm just curious who else in the entire scope of thing here do you find fault with? I posted here to get the opinions of the group. For the hunts this year (Idaho, Zimbabwe, and one in Alaska that is flight only) the wording is simple, straight forward, and easily understandable and acceptable. It is only the complex nonsense and signing away my rights I questioned here. Tell me, would you like me to PM you the contract so you can give your opinion based on 100% of the facts on hand? PM me if you'd like to see it.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania).

If the other outfitters and agents won't come and play, maybe you could post the agreements for these hunts for the collective evaluation of the group.

My contract in its entirety.....



Any questions?

Maybe I'm an idiot for not having one but I have never had a problem doing handshake deals

Not an idiot unless and until there is a problem . . . then yes, not having a contract is idiotic. Car insurance is also a waste of money . . . unless and until there is an accident.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

This year I will be in Zimbabwe, at least one hunt in the Lower 48 and maybe two, and Alaska (of course). 2017 I will be in the States for three or four hunts as well as Zimbabwe, South Africa and (I hope) Tanzania).

If the other outfitters and agents won't come and play, maybe you could post the agreements for these hunts for the collective evaluation of the group.

My contract in its entirety.....



Any questions?

Maybe I'm an idiot for not having one but I have never had a problem doing handshake deals

Not an idiot unless and until there is a problem . . . then yes, not having a contract is idiotic. Car insurance is also a waste of money . . . unless and until there is an accident.

I have insurance, in fact I have double the amount required by the state I work in, I just don't make people sign a contract. They know what I'm providing and I know they'll show up. 98% of the people I hunt with are repeat though so I have that going for me

I lease the hunting rights on a small North Missouri farm.

This includes nothing except written permission to trespass

The lease agreement is about a half page and it basically waves all responsibility of the landowner from me being able to sue him for any reason and it outlines how much I pay and the drop dead date I must pay by.

Most here don't like an eleven page contract

I'm betting most here wouldn't like his 1/2 page one either but I'm 100% OK with it.

Drum,

I'm glad you have had good luck with handshake contracts but I fear that one day it might not end well for you.

Protect yourself and everything you have worked so hard for and get a simple contract of some kind