quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

It seems that there might have been a better way of handling this.

Precisely.

Tell us how?

I still don't know who he is.

A short response by whoever this agent is stating "it's a pretty standard contract but I have nothing to hide and my reputation speaks for itself. If you have a problem with the contract I'd be happy to discuss my reasons for having such with you personally."

As others with common sense and not afraid to be frank have stated, I'm NEVER hunting with someone with a contract like that. Again, thank you Cal for posting this.

quote:

I still don't know who he is.

What would that actually accomplish?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I still don't know who he is.

What would that actually accomplish?

Nothing, and that's exactly my point. I, along with a few others obviously, have learned about hunting contracts without even knowing who the agent is. Quite a valuable service I'd say.

Since others seem to know him I'd say he's earned whatever demerits due by virtue of his silence on a topic that he should be 100% forthcoming about.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I think many people have gained knowledge from this thread and I think it was handled well.

I know I don't have to look at this guy's offerings anymore.

+1

The more I learn about the professional hunting industry the less I like it.

Mike

I think you are painting with too broad a brush.

I have signed contracts worse than the small portion of the 11 pages posted by Cal. I knew no better, now I do. I doubt Mike Jines benefitted from this thread since he admitted to having never signed an unaltered contract. But he has simply, with his contributions over the last six pages confirmed what I now know. If you need an agent choose them wisely and even then carefully review any paperwork requiring a signature.

Even having signed one sided contracts I still had great times in Africa and the only time a contract remotely got in the way was the booking for the hunt in Royal Kafue. That said, it got sorted out to everyone's satisfaction and the agent got his 15%. I doubt I would ever use that agent again though. The deal breaker for me was the recommendation I ask my taxidermist how to properly complete a Leopard CITES permit. I thought then and continue to think now that information is part of the "shit" A booking agent makes his 15% for. Agents certainly are not created equal and a couple posted on this thread that I would not hesitate to use.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

I hear you but when you are probably overseeing a couple of hundred hunters a year I doubt you have time to wade through shit.

Isn't that what an agent's for? To make sure nothing goes wrong? If not, why the **** do you need one?

This is a good point, but, needs further discussion.

No matter how honest and good an outfitter is, sometimes things do go wrong without him knowing anything about them. His quality would show in how much he tries to solve, or lessen the effect of what had gone wrong.

But we cannot honestly hold HIM responsible for something he had no control over.

Cal has kindly sent me the contract, but I have not had time to read it all.

Gents:
I think on this thread "outfitter" and "agent" are getting mixed up a bit. The outfitter is the hunter and in the case here, has absolutely no part of the contract offered to me by the agent.

It will be interesting to read Saeed's take on the contract as he how has the complete 11 pages. I removed any reference to the agent or outfitter when I sent him the document.

This has turned into quite a discussion and, contrary to many threads on AR, we have remained mostly gentlemen. That is the way it should be and I thank you all.
Cal

quote:

Since others seem to know him I'd say he's earned whatever demerits due by virtue of his silence on a topic that he should be 100% forthcoming about.

The point is, since Cal has NOT named the agent, OTHERS are guessing.

What if it is NOT the person people suspect?

How many on here will man up and apologize for their assumption?

Maybe everyone is correct with their accusations, what if they aren't??????

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Maybe everyone is correct with their accusations, what if they aren't??????

They would likely know when they see the contract if they are dealing with him. Unless, of course, he is reading the thread, realizes Cal is likely correct about the contract's one-sidedness, and changes it for the better.

I suppose a simple question like, "Are you the agent that gave Cal an 11 page contract" might work.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Risk follows reward . . . why should the agent you are not paying anything assume any material risk?

Mike:
I missed this.
I disagree that I am not paying the agent. The agent's fee is built into my price of the hunt. It is like the discussions about corporations not paying taxes--they just pass along the tax in the price they charge for their service or products. A percentage of the money I pay for the hunt is paid to the agent. It's not from any other source.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Since others seem to know him I'd say he's earned whatever demerits due by virtue of his silence on a topic that he should be 100% forthcoming about.

The point is, since Cal has NOT named the agent, OTHERS are guessing.

What if it is NOT the person people suspect?

How many on here will man up and apologize for their assumption?

Maybe everyone is correct with their accusations, what if they aren't??????

They'll find out pretty quickly when they receive the 11 page contract, no?

What accusations exactly are you talking about? No one has accused the agent of anything other than having a questionable contract.

And MJines.....agents aren't paid? Sounds like lawyer-speak to me.

Funny.....we have the contrarian and an attorney spinning a very simple topic into a mess.....how apropos.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Risk follows reward . . . why should the agent you are not paying anything assume any material risk?

Mike:
I missed this.
I disagree that I am not paying the agent. The agent's fee is built into my price of the hunt. It is like the discussions about corporations not paying taxes--they just pass along the tax in the price they charge for their service or products. A percentage of the money I pay for the hunt is paid to the agent. It's not from any other source.
Cheers,
Cal

If you book directly with the outfitter he gets paid $XXX. If you book with the outfitter through an agent the outfitter gets paid $XXX less the commission to the agent. You paid the same in both instances, the outfitters gets paid less when you use an agent . . . sounds to me like the outfitter is paying the agent.

But assume you are paying the agent, what is the commission on a $5000 hunt, 10-15%? If that is the case the agent is getting paid $500-$750 dollars. Do you really expect an agent to assume thousands of dollars of risk for a $500 reward? Point is that there is a symmetry between the reward someone receives and their appetite to assume risk. You will not find commercially that many companies are prepared to assume risk disproportionate to their reward. If they do, they generally are not around long.

MJines said........."But assume you are paying the agent, what is the commission on a $5000 hunt, 10-15%? If that is the case the agent is getting paid $500-$750 dollars. Do you really expect an agent to assume thousands of dollars of risk for a $500 reward? Point is that there is a symmetry between the reward someone receives and their appetite to assume risk. You will not find commercially that many companies are prepared to assume risk disproportionate to their reward. If they do, they generally are not around long."


The agent made his own decision to get into this business, so that's his own fault. If he doesn't like the arrangement he can find another line of work, IMHO.

Understood, Mike. Would it make sense then for an agent to carry an insurance policy for unforeseen problems, rather than have the client sign a contract whereby he loses all of his rights?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
MJines said........."But assume you are paying the agent, what is the commission on a $5000 hunt, 10-15%? If that is the case the agent is getting paid $500-$750 dollars. Do you really expect an agent to assume thousands of dollars of risk for a $500 reward? Point is that there is a symmetry between the reward someone receives and their appetite to assume risk. You will not find commercially that many companies are prepared to assume risk disproportionate to their reward. If they do, they generally are not around long."


The agent made his own decision to get into this business, so that's his own fault. If he doesn't like the arrangement he can find another line of work, IMHO.

. . . or he can do what every other commercial enterprise does, contract on a basis where his liabilities are managed to be commensurate with the reward.

I am not suggesting the liability waiver in this case is appropriate. But a liability waiver of some sort is. For example, many professional and consulting services contracts limit liability to the fee being paid the professional or consultant. I am fine with both sides having some skin in game. My objection to this thread is that, as CHC noted, the issue could have been raised in a much more constructive manner.

quote:

What accusations exactly are you talking about?

How many times has one certain agent that offers hunts on this site been mentioned By Name?

That is an accusation, any way you look at it.

The OP has not given the agents name. But look at how many members have openly mentioned that one particular agent's name.

quote:

Funny.....we have the contrarian and an attorney spinning a very simple topic into a mess.....how apropos.

If this was a "Simple Topic", it would not have gone to 7 pages.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

What accusations exactly are you talking about?

How many times has one certain agent that offers hunts on this site been mentioned By Name?

That is an accusation, any way you look at it.

The OP has not given the agents name. But look at how many members have openly mentioned that one particular agent's name.

quote:

Funny.....we have the contrarian and an attorney spinning a very simple topic into a mess.....how apropos.

If this was a "Simple Topic", it would not have gone to 7 pages.

So, you are saying that naming the booking agent using the contract in this thread is an "accusation". An "accusation" of what? Try again.

But, since you seem to have your panties all in a wad about it. I'll state again that I am nearly certain that the booking agent in question is Mark Young. Now, if it isn't Mark Young, then I will profusely apologize for saying that I believe that he uses or used that contract with Calpappas. although I haven't ACCUSED him of anything. He is welcome to come in here and deny it ANYTIME and I will apologize. I won't hold my breath and I would suggest you don't either, unless you are fond of the color blue.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cal pappas:
When I hire someone to preform a service for me (such as real estate agent) they have a fiduciary duty to me to keep my best interests foremost.

Cal,
I am in the investment business. Please understand... A fiduciary duty is extremely complex and rarely followed by anyone selling you something. Not a single real estate agent, booking agent, or car salesman acts as a true fiduciary.

For instance, none of the above disclose gifts received from the seller, kickbacks received, favors received and a detailed explanation of a cost comparison. All would be normal course a business for a true fiduciary. Specifically, any booking agent who has gone on a discounted or free hunt with an outfitter and then sells hunts for that outfitter has violated his fiduciary role. Any real estate agent who has accepted any gifts from a seller and not disclosed the fact to a buyer is also in violation.

You expect your representative to act in your best interest using the Prudent Man Rule.

BTW... I would never sign an 11 page document for a hunt. Thanks for sharing.

Ski+3

Gents:
Kind of like supply and demand: if this thread was useless, unimportant, or of little interest to the membership of AR, or I handled it in a poor manner, it would have died long ago. Rather, enough gentlemen find it interesting enough to keep it going. I am curious as to Saeed's opinion of the contract (I sent it to him with the agent's name deleted).
Agree or disagree with the topic here, it continues to raise questions and concerns that have not been brought up prior.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

I'm not disagreeing, simply pointing out that your "fiduciary" is not that of all "fiduciaries". You may be overlaying your personal fiduciary code to that of a general fudiciary relationship: (bold emphasis mine)

quote:

1) n. from the Latin fiducia, meaning "trust," a person (or a business like a bank or stock brokerage) who has the power and obligation to act for another (often called the beneficiary) under circumstances which require total trust, good faith and honesty. The most common is a trustee of a trust, but fiduciaries can include business advisers, attorneys, guardians, administrators of estates, real estate agents, bankers, stock brokers, title companies, or anyone who undertakes to assist someone who places complete confidence and trust in that person or company. Characteristically, the fiduciary has greater knowledge and expertise about the matters being handled. A fiduciary is held to a standard of conduct and trust above that of a stranger or of a casual business person. He/she/it must avoid "self-dealing" or "conflicts of interests" in which the potential benefit to the fiduciary is in conflict with what is best for the person who trusts him/her/it. For example, a stockbroker must consider the best investment for the client, and not buy or sell on the basis of what brings him/her the highest commission. While a fiduciary and the beneficiary may join together in a business venture or a purchase of property, the best interest of the beneficiary must be primary, and absolute candor is required of the fiduciary. 2) adj. defining a situation or relationship in which a person is acting as a fiduciary for another.

quote:

Originally posted by SkiBumplus3:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cal pappas:
When I hire someone to preform a service for me (such as real estate agent) they have a fiduciary duty to me to keep my best interests foremost.

Cal,
I am in the investment business. Please understand... A fiduciary duty is extremely complex and rarely followed by anyone selling you something. Not a single real estate agent, booking agent, or car salesman acts as a true fiduciary.

For instance, none of the above disclose gifts received from the seller, kickbacks received, favors received and a detailed explanation of a cost comparison. All would be normal course a business for a true fiduciary. Specifically, any booking agent who has gone on a discounted or free hunt with an outfitter and then sells hunts for that outfitter has violated his fiduciary role. Any real estate agent who has accepted any gifts from a seller and not disclosed the fact to a buyer is also in violation.

You expect your representative to act in your best interest using the Prudent Man Rule.

BTW... I would never sign an 11 page document for a hunt. Thanks for sharing.

Ski+3

Ski:
Thanks for your post. I know absolutely nothing of legal matters, however the one and only time I was in court was against a real estate agent who gave me the screws good. His fiduciary duty to me was the main basis for the the State of Alaska to prosecute him and for that breach he lost his license and was fined. But, I really don't know the legal details. All I know is he got what he deserved and I won the case.
Cheers,
Cal

Folks,

I've been in correspondence with Saeed and he has encouraged me to post what I sent him. (SEE BELOW) If anyone has any further questions about my contract please direct them to me personally and I'll be happy to discuss any and all of your concerns.

Mark

Saeed,

I would have been glad to send my contract to you if you had asked and answered any questions or concerns you might have about it. I'm just not going to discuss it on an open forum as my contract is a business arrangement between myself, the outfitter and the client. It's nobody else's business.

As for telling Cal that I'd rather not book him if he thought it necessary to discuss the contract on AR I knew it would turn into what it has and I'd rather not book him than have the hassle. BTW Cal did not ask me any questions about the contract nor did he try to negotiate anything. My contract reads as it does to protect the the outfitter and myself against unreasonable claims. It also gives us full discretion on how to handle each individual situation. We've given people with medical issues all their money back, helped people roll their dates to another year or date, rolled their deposits to another party member etc. Concerning payments I've 3 hunters right now paying me as they can but they asked about a payment plan. one guy is paying me $250 each time he gets paid.

I thought I owed you this explanation as AR is yours but as for the general public I don't see I have any obligation to explain myself when I've done nothing wrong. As Cal said I've done him no harm. In fact I contacted the elk outfitter once Cal bowed out and told him to contact Cal. No reason for the outfitter and Cal to loose out on the hunt. Cal in fact has booked with this outfitter.

I don't get where the anger is coming from on the thread unless its because folks have not been able to bully me into into displaying my private business on the Internet.

Regards,

Mark

Mark, I would respectfully say that since you are here on a public forum, soliciting the public's business, the contract is in fact everyone's business as to your "business arrangement between myself, the outfitter, and client."

Just my opinion. You're obviously free to conduct business however you see fit, and more power to you.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Mark, I would respectfully say that since you are here on a public forum, soliciting the public's business, the contract is in fact everyone's business as to your "business arrangement between myself, the outfitter, and client."

Just my opinion. You're obviously free to conduct business however you see fit, and more power to you.

So maybe every outfitter and agent posting hunts should post their contracts too? After all their contracts are apparently "everyone's business".

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Mark, I would respectfully say that since you are here on a public forum, soliciting the public's business, the contract is in fact everyone's business as to your "business arrangement between myself, the outfitter, and client."

Just my opinion. You're obviously free to conduct business however you see fit, and more power to you.

So maybe every outfitter and agent posting hunts should post their contracts too? After all their contracts are apparently "everyone's business".

Mike,

Since you alter every hunt contract before you sign it I would love to see your version of a fair contract. No I won't pay you.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

What accusations exactly are you talking about?

How many times has one certain agent that offers hunts on this site been mentioned By Name?

That is an accusation, any way you look at it.

The OP has not given the agents name. But look at how many members have openly mentioned that one particular agent's name.

quote:

Funny.....we have the contrarian and an attorney spinning a very simple topic into a mess.....how apropos.

If this was a "Simple Topic", it would not have gone to 7 pages.

Oh, damn, I guess there won't be an apology and you can quit holding your breath.

I'm still waiting to hear why it was an "accusation". Did you find the contract so onerous that you think anyone using it is guilty of something?

quote:

So maybe every outfitter and agent posting hunts should post their contracts too? After all their contracts are apparently "everyone's business".

That would be their business, one on here, Wendell says he won't post his because he paid an attorney to write it.

I can understand his position, BUT if an agent and/or outfitter wants to work with the public by offering hunts, posting a copy of their contract, subject to individual modifications, would certainly show good faith and, assuming a reasonable contract, a sense of dealing of a fair basis AND might make a potential client more likely to choose his services. OTOH, one such as has been discussed on this thread MIGHT make a potential client look elsewhere.

If a contract isn't transparent enough for all to see, especially those that might seek a hunting agent's services on a hunting forum, then something's wrong. Lawyers write long contracts to render them favorable to one or the other party.

Attorneys are a necessary evil. All I'll say is that if you really want one on your side make sure he's from out of state and doesn't have dinner and play golf with the other local judges and attorneys.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

So maybe every outfitter and agent posting hunts should post their contracts too? After all their contracts are apparently "everyone's business".

That would be their business, one on here, Wendell says he won't post his because he paid an attorney to write it.

I can understand his position, BUT if an agent and/or outfitter wants to work with the public by offering hunts, posting a copy of their contract, subject to individual modifications, would certainly show good faith and, assuming a reasonable contract, a sense of dealing of a fair basis AND might make a potential client more likely to choose his services. OTOH, one such as has been discussed on this thread MIGHT make a potential client look elsewhere.

it is my opinion that once one decides to conduct business on a free site like this, any expectation of having a private venue disappear.

These agents live by word of mouth and forum approvel, they cant expect it to be one sided.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Mark, I would respectfully say that since you are here on a public forum, soliciting the public's business, the contract is in fact everyone's business as to your "business arrangement between myself, the outfitter, and client."

Just my opinion. You're obviously free to conduct business however you see fit, and more power to you.

So maybe every outfitter and agent posting hunts should post their contracts too? After all their contracts are apparently "everyone's business".

Unless they're trying to hide something I say "no problemo".

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Mark, I would respectfully say that since you are here on a public forum, soliciting the public's business, the contract is in fact everyone's business as to your "business arrangement between myself, the outfitter, and client."

Just my opinion. You're obviously free to conduct business however you see fit, and more power to you.

So maybe every outfitter and agent posting hunts should post their contracts too? After all their contracts are apparently "everyone's business".

Unless they're trying to hide something I say "no problemo".

Great. Did you book any of your Namibia hunts through someone that advertises on AR? If so, please post a copy of the contract(s) and we can critique and comment on them.

quote:

I'm still waiting to hear why it was an "accusation".

Since Mr. Pappas never stated who the agent was, people began openly guessing and a couple even openly claimed who the agent was, Or Who They Beliecved The Agent To Be, those are accusations, nothing more/nothing less.

I am curious as to why anyone that has commented on the subject deserves an apology?

Will there need to be a new topic area started where everyone offering hunts on here must post their contracts their clients sign when booking a hunt? Would it only apply to agents or to anyone/everyone offering hunts?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I'm still waiting to hear why it was an "accusation".

Since Mr. Pappas never stated who the agent was, people began openly guessing and a couple even openly claimed who the agent was, Or Who They Beliecved The Agent To Be, those are accusations, nothing more/nothing less.

I am curious as to why anyone that has commented on the subject deserves an apology?

Will there need to be a new topic area started where everyone offering hunts on here must post their contracts their clients sign when booking a hunt? Would it only apply to agents or to anyone/everyone offering hunts?

Randall,

It was pointed out in this thread that some folks just sign the contract and don't pay attention to it. Probably not a good idea and I have been at fault of doing this in the past.

I'm not a lawyer and the only other contracts I have ever signed were for home purchases or sales. Didn't read through every word of those either.

I will repeat the fact that Mike Jines having never signed a hunting contract that he did not alter tells me he is either far too over cautious being someone who regularly dealt with contracts for a living or we are not cautious enough.

I learned and will change my ways. Thanks Mike and thanks to Cal for starting this discussion.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Great. Did you book any of your Namibia hunts through someone that advertises on AR? If so, please post a copy of the contract(s) and we can critique and comment on them.

Never used a booking agent on any Africa hunt or trip to Sonora, MX a few times. I see no need in it personally. I also guide/outift about 12 hunts per year here, and use no contract whatsoever of any kind. Never had an issue. I can see how the agent to landowner/outfitter arrangement would be nobody's business, but not the agent/customer arrangement. The more transparent the better.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Great. Did you book any of your Namibia hunts through someone that advertises on AR? If so, please post a copy of the contract(s) and we can critique and comment on them.

I can see how the agent to landowner/outfitter arrangement would be nobody's business, but not the agent/customer arrangement. The more transparent the better.

. . . why am I not surprised.

Just for the Hell of it, here's the entirety of the contract for my trip earlier this year

HUNTING CONTRACT
between
Hunting Company
and
Fjold

Package Offer with Extension to 2016
Blue Duiker - $XXX
Red Duiker - $XXXX
Nyala - $XXXX
Bushbuck - $XXX
Kudu - $XXXX
Common Reedbuck - $XXX

Day Rate/hunter $XXX
Observers pay $XXX

All trophy fees paid in full in 2015 will be valid in 2016
Any animals not taken will be refunded at the same rate in 2016 as paid in full in 2015
All other animals taken in 2016 will be at the 2016 Price List pricing structure

Extreme Currency Fluctuations and Refund Policy
All funds are held in SA Rand, we cannot cover massive currency fluctuations on funds held with us and you have the right to leave the funds in SA until such time as the return rate matches the incoming rate.
NB – This only applies due to the fact that this is a discounted package hunt and the outfitter stands to loose money should there be a further devaluation of the rand etc. A situation that is more and more common.

Daily Rate Includes:
All meals and accommodation.
Services of licensed Hunting Outfitter and PH’s.
Services of both camp and field staff.
Hunt transport in fully equipped well maintained 4x4s.
Field preparation of trophies, (capeing, salting, tagging and cleaning of skulls, shipping to Taxidermist)
Hunting Licenses

Daily Rate Excludes;
Pre and post hunt transportation.
Air or road transfers.
Trophy fees.
Taxidermy costs.
Alcohol and tobacco.
Gratuities to staff.

Dates:
Arrival April 28th, 2016
Departure May 8th 2016

Arrival and departure days are charged at $XXX
Pick up and Drop Off:

There will be no additional charge for the collection and drop off at King Shaka International Airport in Durban. Any other collection points will be quoted separately

Taxidermy :
We can arrange collection of trophies by Highveld Taxidermy and Spirit of Africa Taxidermy both of whom I use for my personal taxidermy work.
If you choose to use other companies we are happy to facilitate the collection of the trophies by selected company at your cost.
Generally they will have a “pick – up” service at no cost that will do the rounds and collect on set days etc. Please just liaise with them to fit your collection in.


PAYMENT

1. 50% of Daily Rate due with confirmation of booking. (11 days @ $XXX = $XXX x 50% = $XXXX

2. Balance of Daily Rate is payable a minimum of 10 days before arrival or in cash on the day of arrival = $XXXX
3. Trophy Fees and incidentals payable on completion of the hunt, cash or bank guaranteed cheque.
4. Trophy fees you wish to hold on the 2015 rate for the 2016 hunt will be payable in full on confirmation of the hunt together with the day rate deposit.

Refund Policy;

1. 50% of the day rate is a non- refundable deposit.
2. Deposits may be carried over to the following season towards the rates in line with the years price list
3. We do not cover currency fluctuations on landed funds due to the volatility of the rand.

Account Details:
Removed for privacy

INDEMNITY

1.While every effort is made to obtain the client’s quarry, it must be borne in mind that the game is in a free and wild state, therefore no guarantee is given that the required trophy will be obtained by the client.
2.We endeavour to ensure that the safety and well-being of the client is maintained at all times, however we cannot accept liability or responsibility for any loss, injury or death that may occur to the Client through any means whatsoever.

SIGNED: 1) __________________________ (Client)

2) __________________________ (Outfitter / Professional Hunter / Booking Agent)

PLACE: ______________________ DATE: ____________________


.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I'm still waiting to hear why it was an "accusation".

Since Mr. Pappas never stated who the agent was, people began openly guessing and a couple even openly claimed who the agent was, Or Who They Beliecved The Agent To Be, those are accusations, nothing more/nothing less.

I am curious as to why anyone that has commented on the subject deserves an apology?

Will there need to be a new topic area started where everyone offering hunts on here must post their contracts their clients sign when booking a hunt? Would it only apply to agents or to anyone/everyone offering hunts?

If you're going to try to use the language and more than 4 letter words in your post, then you need to know what something means.

quote:

ac·cu·sa·tion
ˌakyəˈzāSH(ə)n/
noun
a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.

AFA apologies go, in case you forgot, you're the one who brought the topic up....from your post above:

quote:

What if it is NOT the person people suspect?

How many on here will man up and apologize for their assumption?

I was willing to "man up" and apologize if I was wrong, but , I wasn't wrong.

So if I understand the progress of this thread correctly someone/many here will now go to the Hunts Offered threads and rightfully demand that all outfitters and agents using a free public advertising forum such as this openly declare and post ALL formalities related to the services they are freely advertising, right ?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
So if I understand the progress of this thread correctly someone/many here will now go to the Hunts Offered threads and rightfully demand that all outfitters and agents using a free public advertising forum such as this openly declare and post ALL formalities related to the services they are freely advertising, right ?

I don't think that anyone is demanding anything.

One member was offered a hunt and then given a contract that he didn't like with the admonition from the contractor that if the hunter talked about it on the site (that the contractor advertised for free on) that the contract was invalid. The hunter then asked the site membership if they thought that this was unusual/acceptable.

I've read the contract now. There is so much lawyer jargon in there it made my head spin. If I read it correctly you owe the agent your firstborn grandchild if he sees fit.

But don't worry.....the contract is just a formality. Sign away!

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I've read the contract now. There is so much lawyer jargon in there it made my head spin. If I read it correctly you owe the agent your firstborn grandchild if he sees fit.

But don't worry.....the contract is just a formality. Sign away!

…and "trust me."
Cal