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Well, two out of two wrong ain't a passing score. I've learned something too and I'll state it plainly as follows; some seem to be so concentrated on the discussion of the signing away of one's rights to legal recourse which is a problem, but, as I see it, the main issue with the contract is the Force Majeure section which is, WITHOUT DOUBT, totally unfair to the hunter and should be, without further discussion, a solid reason never to use someone who would ask a hunter to sign such a heinous contract. Anyone who disagrees with this, including Mr. Young, is welcome to ask me why and I'll quote the contract to show why. But, to sum up, if the FM occurs less than 270 days before the hunt, then ANY and ALL monies paid to the agent will be forfeited and, if the poor hunter hasn't paid all the monies owed for the hunt, he will be billed for the balance due DESPITE NOT BEING ABLE TO GO ON THE HUNT DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES COMPLETELY BEYOND HIS CONTROL, such as a revolution, flood, etc. I will say that Mr. Young strongly" recommends the hunter getting cancellation insurance. If he signed that contract, the hunter certainly should, because he isn't getting any help from the agent. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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No doubt true and not just in the booking agent profession. | |||
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What you say is true CHC, and it's too bad men aren't as honorable in general as they once were. Would you agree that lawyers have made dishonorable men more litigious though? Not all attorneys are bad....just wanted to bust mjines' balls a bit because of what I view as a misguided stance on this issue. As I said before, we all have to deal with scumbags in our chosen fields, not just agents. | |||
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Well, let's see, I currently lease 4 properties, totaling just under 3000 acres, to 4 separate parties or individuals, and all I've got is a handshake on all of them. Works for me, but, I will admit, it could be like one of my favorite jokes with a point.... Man jumps off a 50 story building roof....passes a window washer at the 25th floor....startled, the washer yells, "How are you doing?" Falling man replies, "Ok so faaaaaar." And then there's another oldie but goodie.... Little boy, age about 10, and his mother are walking in park and boy sees two dogs humping. He asks his mother, "Mommy, what are those dogs doing?" Mother, thinking he's too young and not wanting to get into a birds and bees discussion, thinks fast and says, "Well, son, do you see that dog on the bottom?" "Yes." "Well, the doggy on top has hurt his paw and the doggy on the bottom is helping take him to the doggy hospital." Boy takes that in and after a pause, says..... "Well, ain't that the way of the world, you try to help somebody out and you wind up getting f**ked." xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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The following is a not atypical provision in a booking agent contract: "In the event that client reserves an additional guided hunt and or fishing trip with an outfitter which was originally introduced to client by agent, client agrees to book his or her hunt and or fishing trip through agent for all subsequent guided hunts and or fishing trips using the services of outfitter. Client agrees to send the initial deposit and remaining balance for the additional hunt and or fishing trip to agent and not to the outfitter." I wonder whether such provisions just started appearing in contracts through serendipity or whether they arose because agents found that clients and outfitters were attempting to end run them and cut them out of a fee after providing a service to the client and the outfitter? Just one example of how our actions as clients have given us the types of contract provisions we like to complain about. Mike | |||
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I believe they have helped get things into the shape they are. Thanks for your input Gato. It is refreshing to know that there still are some folks that can and do conduct business like that. All too often anymore every little detail has to be addressed on a formal contract. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Just a guess on my part, but I tend to believe the latter part of your statement is most accurate. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Well I disagree. I lease 70,000 acres in TX on two different tracts, and it's still a handshake deal. Leaving atty's out of a deal is a big bonus, and it can still be done. | |||
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Yes, Gato pointed that out. Each of us however have our own individual experiences leasing hunting properties, and in Texas from what I have experienced it varies from one region to the next. In this area due to the number of hunters from the DFW area that lease these properties, the normal concept is a formal contract, and even then conflicts arise. I am not supporting the system as it has evolved into, the last time I personally PAID to be on a lease was in the 1970's and it was a handshake contract and there were no problems. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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First let's be crystal clear. Once I knew Cal was not going to sign the contract I contacted the outfitter and told him to contact Cal. He did contact Cal, said he was going to book and that he would take care of my 10%. That was offered by the outfitter and not solicited by me in any way. Second my contract does not contain the provision quoted above because it sounds too much like the client owes me for future hunts regardless of whether he had a good experience with me personally or not. My operators do often refer a client back to me if they know I was the one that initially talked to the client and in some cases they do consider a client that booked through me initially to always be my client. third and to make another point clear Cal is only the third person in all the time I've been selling hunts that would not sign the contract. The other two were lawyers and did at least try to negotiate with me but we came to an impasse and that's fine. Cal never asked about negotiating any aspect of the contract and here we are on AR discussing what was personal business on a public forum. Poor form in my mind and it should be obvious why I told Cal I'd rather not book him if he thought he needed to discuss the contract here. Cheers, Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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“Force Majeure” means, in relation to the Company and the Outfitter/Safari Operator, any circumstances beyond the reasonable control of the Company or the Outfitter/Safari Operator (including, but without limitation, acts of God, explosion, flood tempest, fire, accident, war or threat of war, terrorist attacks, sabotage, insurrection, civil disturbance, unrest, requisition, sickness, quarantine, government intervention or hindrance of any kind, weather conditions or other untold occurrences). For purposes of this Agreement with you, A Force Majeure event may also include a situation where government concessions for Trips once made available to the Company or the Outfitter/Safari Operator are no longer made available to the Company or the Outfitter/Safari Operator or are significantly restricted. occurs less than 270 days before the hunt, then ANY and ALL monies paid to the agent will be forfeited and, if the poor hunter hasn't paid all the monies owed for the hunt, he will be billed for the balance due DESPITE NOT BEING ABLE TO GO ON THE HUNT DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES COMPLETELY BEYOND HIS CONTROL, such as a revolution, flood, etc. Mark, this is poor form in my mind. Do you care to explain why this is in your contract? | |||
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Thanks for the morning laugh Mark. Not sure why but that is really funny to me. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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It is all about doing your homework. A good reputable outfitter or agent frankly either doesn't need a contract or could put whatever he wants in it, because irrespective of what is actually in the contract, they would do the right thing (the handshake effect).......this selling point is always reflected in the references. I have seen the entire gamut of outfitters from good to bad to dishonest. Always, I have found the better I due my due diligence the better the decision and the better the outfitter. Every time I have done my part to the fullest, I could have signed any contract sight unseen as it would have been as good as a handshake. Moreover, no matter how ironclad the contract is nor the more justified the cause, if it comes down to litigation it is often better to cut your losses and look at it as a lesson well learned (the no pot to piss in effect). Again, see above as you did not do your homework. Regardless, still, Sumpin smells rotten in the state of Denmark. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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FMC has it right. If you do your homework correctly nothing really matters much after that. | |||
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JG, This is a good time to explain my view on the Force Majeure. Once again it gives myself and the operator full discretion on how to handle any situation. in practical terms as of right now in Zim some folks might get cold feet because of the unrest. If the operator can safely put on the hunts why would he return the money to the client? This is a business deal and if the outfitter can fulfill his obligation the client should understand that he needs to fulfill his. As for the situation where the operator cannot fulfill his obligation because of circumstances beyond his control the first thing we would try to do is find a different venue for the hunts. in 2012 when the SAVE abruptly closed I had 24 clients booked there. We found good hunts for all of them that year and in fact some had incredible safaris. JG the point is we always try to work with the clients and very little is in stone. In the worst case scenario when for instance a whole country went up side down and we could not roll the safari to another year or country that would be where my recommendation for travel insurance would come in. I might be able to give back my commissions but it might be impossible for a safari operator to pay back 100's of thousands of dollars for a whole season of hunts. international hunting in third world countries carries risk and if a person can't accept that risk he should not book one of these hunts. Hope this was helpful. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Jim, FYI: I see the not so subtle point your trying to make but please understand that quite a few lawyers have signed my contract and two of them are members here on AR. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Mark, I've signed contracts with you, although with the Adam Clements logo, and chose to value your stated, "trust me" over the obfuscated verbiage of the contract. Look what happened with out last booking. Regardless of contracts, a piece of paper requested by Adam Clements of Andrew almost resulted in the cancelation of a magnificent safari. I would not hesitate to discuss future trip possibilities with you but after reading this thread I will never sign a one sided contract again regardless of who presents it. I was nieve, and Mr. Jines, though it may not have been his goal, has set me straight. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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From your post above:
Of course, your Force Majeure clause has absolutely nothing to do with the client not performing. From your post above:
Ummmm, you kind of overlooked the clauses in your FM section which refers the client back to 2.1 (iii) that says if FM is declared in under 270 days in advance of the hunt as a reason the hunt cannot be completed then the client WILL STILL BE LIABLE FOR TOTAL COSTS OF HUNT PAYABLE TO YOU AS "CANCELLATION FEES". I have taken the liberty of putting the paragraphs out of sequence below, so people won't have to go back and forth to figure out what it says.
From your post above:
"Might be able to give back your commissions". Indeed, is that before or after you have charged the client for the complete costs (cancellation fees, see 2.1 (iii) above) of the whole hunt that you have decided is not doable because of FM. I'm going to repeat what I said earlier, anyone who is dumb enough to do business with or much less sign a contract like you ask them to sign deserves what they get. Caveat Emptor. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Mark, it appears to me that your clients have all the risk and exposure, and your outfitters have none. Not my idea of a fair deal. | |||
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. . . good advice for agents and outfitters too before taking on certain clients.  Mike | |||
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Help this simple country boy with this confusing concept...why should "I" as a customer, who is already expected to pay in full BEFORE services are rendered, then get no refund in case of "act of god". The outfitter has provided me with zero, while he enjoys no risk to his business. Kinda like buying a car and paying for it a year in advance only to have the factory burn down and GM not offer a refund... | |||
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The outfitter is the one that pays the booking agent. A good agent will place the right client with the right outfitter for the right hunt. The outfitters pays the commission for the booking and if the agent has done his job right the client has a great hunt. The agent makes the money from the outfitter but if it weren't for the clients he wouldn't be in business. I guess this is why I was left scratching my head on the "if you ask AR I won't book you" comments. Why alienate the very people you're soliciting business to? Makes no sense to me MJines is absolutely correct that outfitters and agents need to be careful about the clients they deal with. Some people are impossible to please and some just have unrealistic expectations and there are others just aren't the right fit for a particular hunt for whatever reason. I try to be very careful to make sure a prospective client is the right guy for the hunt that's offered, even if it's coming from an agent. It's only fair to the client and to the outfitter to make sure that the hunt that's available is the right hunt for the right client with the right outfitter. | |||
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Correct. The client must fulfill their obligation the same as the outfitter. No more, no less. However, the outfitter does have control. That control is to bank the money he collects for the hunts and have it available for refunds in the event he cannot provide the exact contracted hunt that the hunter contracted for. The idea that the hunter should have to accept something other than what the hunter contracted for is unacceptable. The outfitter should not be in business if he doesn't have enough working capital to cover his current business. In my profession we are required to place all unearned money in a trust account. We must account for that money at all times. We can only remove it from the trust account after it has been earned. If it does not get earned it must be returned to the client. If I were to say to a client something like "well, I know you paid me for this, but I can't do that for you now, so instead I will do this for you" I'd probably lose my license. Of course, if the client wanted me to do something else for the money he had on retainer, that would be a different story, and if hunters want to go on these other hunts that is fine. That is basically a new contract being formed. | |||
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Why should the risk be one sided on the client? The outfitter too has chosen to operate in third world countries. All country risk is assumed by the client with the outfitter having the ultimate decision to conduct the hunt. So using zim as an example if a client from us is hunting in zim and us government issues a travel warning and pulls all non essential embassy personal and say emriates (what he has booked his trip on) stops flying to zim but outfitter says it's fine to hunt and the client cancels inside of the 270 day window he is responsible for total safari costs. Even as his country says don't travel to zim and his airline stops flying there. That is a one sided risk and legal liability structure. The client has contractual liabilities in first world country for all the crap that can go wrong in a third world country. I find this thread really interesting cause it shows the fiduciary and agency obligations are clearly between outfitter and agent not between agent and client. If cal is only the third person to ever object to the contract then it clearly seems that most hunters are fine signing this contract. Mike | |||
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I would have to disagree with that assertion. How many people do you think are going to read an 11 page contract from start to finish like the one stated here and then sign it? My guess is less than 5% and that may be high! | |||
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. . . you ever read your insurance policy? Or your mortgage? Your car loan? Did you sign the mortgage or the loan?  Mike | |||
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The state of Texas drops in a regulatory structure to govern auto insurance contracts - bet it is the same for mortgages and car loans. http://www.tdi.texas.gov/pubs/consumer/cb020.html You won't get a one side contract with full liabilities than cal got. Even if some scummy insurance company presents one the state of Texas would null it. Mike | |||
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There you go. Makes no sense to this country boy either. Sounds like a better idea to just deal with the company direct and cut out the agent. | |||
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Thank you for your post that backs up exactly what I stated in mine! | |||
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Since it has nothing to do with this thread.....YES. I read them all. But then I read a lot of contracts for my work. I have certainly changed insurance carriers over it and had MANY cross-outs on my mortgage contract. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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sounds like agents need to start holding more in escrow to me also this particular hunt wasn't in a 3rd world country, so maybe have a second contract for US/Canada I guess I also (wrongly) assumed that going through a US agent was a way of ensuring that even if something would go wrong in Africa I have someone that will be on MY side I will also say you may not be happy that Cal posted his question but I sure as heck am, now I will know if/when I sign a hunt contract to read and that a one sided contract is NOT the industry standard so I now know that I either need to negotiate or walk away from a 1 sided contract. I have also learned that some of my assumptions about agents are not correct. I also think Cal asked his question in such a manner that some drew conclusions and some like myself had it figured out but were not THAT concerned who but more concerned with what the content of the contract said and ultimately if it was acceptable or unacceptable Cudos to you for helping those hunters rebook for different areas, that is your job but your contract does say you don't HAVE to so if I knew you on a personal level the "just trust me" would be fine but on a professional level you have to remember someone like myself may be saving up for a few years for that once in a lifetime so a "just trust me" doesn't always sit well. | |||
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The guy I elk hunt with in ID has never asked me to sign a contract. Fantastic hunt, fantastic price, and great fun. | |||
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The guy my buddy took his Wyoming Bison with in 2014, as well as our deer horseback hunt last year, was just on a hand shake. He has another 15 day hunt for a moose tag and another deer tag for the same area this year along with a cow Bison hunt in January and no contracts will be signed. It's all on a hand shake the way it used to be in the "good old days" and it's too bad there are few out there that are as good and honest as Ralph.With as much money as my buddy is spending with him along with what I paid for my hunt with him last year he's letting me go on the combo hunt for free when it's usually $150 a day for a non hunter. He will obviously get a good tip from me and I'll still save a ton of money. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Hunt contracts--what to expect(?)
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