Gents:

A couple of weeks ago I began a thread of my interest in looking to expand my hunting experiences and hunt a few animals in the Lower 48. Between posts on AR, PMs, emails, and phone calls I had 31 replies with helpful information and offers of hunts. Thank you all, I appreciate your input.

Of the replies, one came from a booking agent with several hunts that were of interest to me. One was priced much higher than similar hunts elsewhere but three sparked my interest. Two were available in 2017 but an elk was available this fall (2016). I wanted the hunt and after filling out a short information sheet the hunt contract was emailed to me. Now, I've been to Australia for three hunts and this July will see number 17 to Africa so I have a bit of experience but still have a lot to learn. When the contract arrived I didn't know what to do. It was 11 pages of legalese that was confusing to read initially. After some time I began to digest the information. I've signed agreements for my overseas hunts--usually a page stating the costs, dates of the hunt, what is included and not included, etc. This one left me cold.

Five insurances were suggested for the hunt and if I declined one or all I had to sign. The contract did list the cost involved but also stated any surcharges levied after I signed must be paid in 14 days or the hunt would be canceled with refunds at the discretion of the agent. That I give up the right to a suit for damages--even if the fault is with the outfitter or agent. That the agent is not responsible for lost or damaged baggage (that is fine if the airline loses my bags, but no mention if the agent or guide loses my bags). If I request special diet (such as diet Coke as I'm diabetic) it could/would be surcharged. That photos used in marketing the hunt may not be photos from where I am hunting. Trophy fees must be paid prior to the hunt. And it goes on for 11 pages!

I brought up two issues with the agent. One is extra fees and the other is a concern of the trophy fee being paid before the hunt. I was assured the fee would be returned to me if the elk was not taken. However there was no mention of a timeline for the return of the fee. As to extra charges I was assured none would be added along with "we are not going to screw you" and "you have to trust." That said, the contract also states the wording of the contract is the entire agreement and any words or agreements outside of the contract are not valid.

I mentioned I should like to get the opinion of an attorney friend and also to ask the membership of AR their opinions. Maybe I am being overly cautious but I've never seen such a lengthy and legal contract where I sign away virtually all of my rights. My attorney said this: "If all goes well you will forget you ever signed the contract. If it goes to shit you have signed away any recourse and given all rights to the agent." One red flag raised was that if I asked AR members their opinion, the agent emailed he would not book me.

On my last several hunts, I posted a check to the PH/outfitter upon my return home. I operate on trust and my word is good. Many times I have bought a double rifle and the rifle and my check pass each other in the mail. I've never operated in a hunt-client situation with a contract based on mistrust of the client. The agent agreed it was one sided but said to "trust him.

So, valued AR gents, am I being too overly cautious? Are contracts like this the norm for US hunting? I didn't post the entire contract here as I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest with the agent. He has not done me any ill will and I don't want others to go after him so I didn't use his name or include details of the hunt.

Just wondering, that's all. I appreciate all of your input.
Cal

PS.
Below are two contracts. The first is 1/2 page of 11 pages from the agent. I passed on this as it (and the entire contract) is 100% in favor the the agent, gives the client absolutely nothing, and seems to me is based on a complete mistrust of, and lack of respect for, the client. The second contract is from the outfitter. I'm sending him a check Monday.

One small part from the agent:
5.2 BY SIGNING ON THE SIGNATURE PAGE OF THIS AGREEMENT, I CERTIFY THAT I HAVE READ THIS ENTIRE DOCUMENT AND FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS AND THE TYPE OF RISKS INHERENT IN SUCH TRIPS. IN CONSIDERATION OF, AND AS PART PAYMENT FOR THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS TRIP, AND THE ACTIVITIES (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO HUNTING), TRANSPORTATION, SERVICES AND FOOD ARRANGED FOR ME BY THE COMPANY, THE OUTFITTER/SAFARI OPERATOR, OR THE SUPPLIERS. I, THE CLIENT, (THE RELEASOR) AGREE ON BEHALF OF MYSELF AND ANY MINORS ACCOMPANYING ME TO INDEMNIFY, HOLD HARMLESS AND RELEASE THE COMPANY, ITS OWNERS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, ASSOCIATES, AND THE OUTFITTER/SAFARI OPERATOR AND ITS OWNERS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, ASSOCIATES (HEREINAFTER COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE RELEASEES) FOR ANY ACCIDENTS, CLAIMS, LOSSES, DAMAGES OR LIABILITIES, INCLUDING DEATH, DISABILITY, INJURY OR LOSS OR DAMAGE TO RELEASEOR OR RELEASOR’S MINOR CHILD OR RELEASOR’S PROPERTY, WHICH MIGHT OCCUR DURING THE ACTIVITIES OF THIS TRIP, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THOSE LOSSES ARISING OUT OF THE JOINT OR CONCURRENT, ACTIVE OR PASSIVE NEGLIGENCE, GROSS NEGLIGENCE, ACTIONS, WRONGFUL ACTS, OMISSION AND OR STRICT LIABILITY OF RELEASEES. I EXPRESSLY WAIVE ANY SUCH RIGHT TO RECOVER FOR THESE MATTERS.
I EXPRESSLY ASSUME ANY AND ALL SUCH RISKS WITH RESPECT TO THE ACTIVITIES AND CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THOSE DESCRIBED HEREIN, AND AGREE NOT TO SUE OR MAKE CLAIM AGAINST ALL THE RELEASEES ON ACCOUNT OF _______________

ANY SUCH LOSSESS, CLAIMS, COSTS, LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES. FUTHER I AGREE NOT TO CLAIM THE UNENFORCEABILITY OF THIS AGREEMENT OR THIS RELEASE. I AGREE THAT THE FOREGOING OBLIGATION SHALL BE BINDING UPON ME PERSONALLY, AS WELL AS UPON MY HEIRS, ASSIGNS, EXECUTORS AND ADMINISTRATORS, AND MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY, AND SHALL ALSO BE BINDING UPON ANY MINORS ACCOMPANYING ME ON THIS TRIP.


Entire contract from the elk outfitter (My check goes out Monday):
Name:
Address:
Phone:
email:
Emergency contact:
Hunt type: rifle-elk
Hunt cost including 6% tax: $3750
Lic & tag: not included
Harvest/wound fee: $1500
Deposit amount: $1250
Balance due: on or before 9-9-16
Hunt arrival date: 10-9-16, departure date: 10-16-16
Hunt days: 10-10-16 to 10-15-16 (6 days)
Refund policy: non-refundable but transferable
Client signature & date:
Outfitter signature & date:

Sorry, I didn't read the whole post. I got to the part sbout the contract being 11 pages and a little beyond that. Hunting is supposed to be fun. I am pretty sure that there are enough honest and hardworking outfits that will show you good animals and a good time without going the route you describe. Just do your due diligence ( that means talking with references provided) and use your gut feeling. I personally would steer clear of this deal. Good luck

Eleven page contract? No way I would hunt with that guy. You are setting yourself up to be screwed.

Hell no I would not sign it. It is way too one sided and over reaching.

I once got to the Yukon and was presented with a ridiculous contract. I flatly refused to sign. They wanted to know why. I told them it gave away all of my rights under every conceivable circumstance. If they hunted sheep from the hotel room, I had no recourse. If their guide intentionally shot me, I had no recourse. It was just too much . I had no recourse for anything .

I get that outfitters have to deal with their share of BS. They can protect the self without this kind of thjng.

If a out fit sent me 11 pages I would find some one else.

Gents:
This contract is from a booking agent NOT the outfitter. The outfitter's contract as at the bottom of the post and is very short, simple, honest, and to the point. Thanks for your input.
Cal

If it has to do with money. It should be reduced to writing. This is a novel on the subject of how you have very little, if any recourse. This guy is not operating in good faith and I would do as you did. Send check to the outfitter that acts like he wants to take you hunting. Move on!

No way would I deal with an agent like that! However, I would also want more from the outfitter that that little bit you had at the end of your post.

Cal:

First time I've heard of anyone anywhere saying they'd never book a client if they posted on a/r. That alone would end any consideration of going with that outfit.

I'd damned sure not be sending them a check of any kind. Sounds like they've fk'd someone of A/R's members and been exposed as crooks the way it sounds like they are.

There's way too many elk hunts offered that are legit to gamble on such an obvious: "back up and drop your drawers" situation as this sounds obvious you'll be totally screwed.

Good luck, and take a big jar of veiner slickem~~~!

One of my late customer/friends claimed: "there only ONE question to be answered in any legal situation. Once that's settled, the case is over. Decide which party: "is to be the FUCKOR, and which is to be the FUCKEE". There is no other question that matters in any legal case. I've studied that and talked it over with Don many a time and it sure sounds like he had it figured out.

George

The agent would not book me if I posted on AR as "...there are far too many there who would love to turn this into some conspiracy to defraud a member even if they have zero experience in booking hunts."
Thanks for your input. I hope the agent will come on here and set the record straight as to his contract. He has his reasons why he uses such a complicated writ but should have nothing to hide from anyone or AR members as he posts here very often. But, that is his call, not mine. I just wanted to get feedback on the situation as it is new territory to me. My African contracts are a simple one page agreement.
Again, thank you and all who replied and PM'ed.
Cal

Seems to me, you handled it right. I would not use that agent. The outfitter contract is more what I have seen before.

The biggest part of the contract was the booking agents way of being sure he got his fees up front.

You did the write thing by not booking with that person.

I can not say for sure, but I feel like honest hunting operations have gotten themselves in trouble over the years by getting involved with these type "Agents".

Hope you get your hunts put together.

Run away from the agent as fast as you can.

Wait just a minute.... You're trying to tell me that you booked an elk hunt for $3750 with tax included?!?

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
Wait just a minute.... You're trying to tell me that you booked an elk hunt for $3750 with tax included?!?

Don't forget the trophy fee of 1500$. Total is $5250. Fair chase, no fences, no guarantees of record book elk.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
Wait just a minute.... You're trying to tell me that you booked an elk hunt for $3750 with tax included?!?

Don't forget the trophy fee of 1500$. Total is $5250. Fair chase, no fences, no guarantees of record book elk.
Cal

Sounds like a square deal! Best of luck!

We booked in 2012 through Adam Clements Safari Trackers and their contract was actually longer than 11 pages.

A deposit was paid over a year before the scheduled hunt and the deposit money was not sent to the outfitter, who was a start up and needed the cash, until I started to threaten going public with the issue.

Immediately after the deposit money was sent to the outfitter from ACST I informed them all future money would be sent from me directly to the outfitter, essentially removing them from the equation. I paid the 15% commission directly to the agent representing ACST at that time. I did not feel he was the author of that contract and the type to hold deposit money from the actual outfitter.

I will NEVER enter into a contract anything like that again.

Cheers
Jim

Cal,

Let me get this straight

You posted your thread on AR stating your desire to hunt the lower 48....this I know

Were you contacted by this eleven page contract wielding consultant via AR?

If yes and he tells you to not discuss his contract on AR doesn't this throw up a red flag?

Furthermore

If he is an AR member and uses this web forum as a means to find or supply clients with hunters but doesn't want his contract discussed here some of us might want a heads up.

I do understand him not wanting you to discuss the contract here and receive a genuine AR tar and feather this place is quick and just to deliver.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Cal,

Let me get this straight

You posted your thread on AR stating your desire to hunt the lower 48....this I know

Were you contacted by this eleven page contract wielding consultant via AR?

If yes and he tells you to not discuss his contract on AR doesn't this throw up a red flag?

Ted:
You are absolutely correct. I posted and was PM'ed by the agent with several hunts. When I received the 11-page contract I emailed back stating I needed time to review it as it was so complicated, wanted to run it by an attorney friend, and ask the membership on AR their opinion. He emailed back stating the contract was, indeed, one sided but to trust him and if I thought it necessary to go to AR he would not book me. YES! That was a big red flag and a reason I passed on doing business with him.
Cal

I wouldn't use him and weather in a PM or here I want to know who this is.

I would never "trust" a person that put you in this situation

I recomend you do the same

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I wouldn't use him and weather in a PM or here I want to know who this is.

I would never "trust" a person that put you in this situation

I recomend you do the same

I agree with Ted, The world must know.

So this guy books hunts on AR with that kind of a contract. Amazing. If he's too chicken shit to come on here to defend it, then he shouldn't book hunts at all IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
So this guy books hunts on AR with that kind of a contract. Amazing. If he's too chicken shit to come on here to defend it, then he shouldn't book hunts at all IMO.

Exactly and he should be outed by name to alert others of his piss poor business technique!

Cal,

There was one immediate red flag. The just trust me, we won't do what it says in the contract.


I wish you would tell us who this booking agent is because I book 75% of my hunts here on AR. Obviously I haven't booked with this agent yet but I'd like to know who to ignore from now on. I do have my suspicions so even if you don't tell us, it will make most of us a lot more cautious when dealing with the agents on here.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The agent would not book me if I posted on AR as "...there are far too many there who would love to turn this into some conspiracy to defraud a member even if they have zero experience in booking hunts."
Thanks for your input. I hope the agent will come on here and set the record straight as to his contract. He has his reasons why he uses such a complicated writ but should have nothing to hide from anyone or AR members as he posts here very often. But, that is his call, not mine. I just wanted to get feedback on the situation as it is new territory to me. My African contracts are a simple one page agreement.
Again, thank you and all who replied and PM'ed.
Cal

Cal,

One thing that's bothered me about this is that there are quite a few agents that utilize the free advertising on Accurate Reloading, courtesy of Saeed, to book quite a few hunts. I know a few of the agents and think they are great guys so my question is if this agent operates and advertises openly on AR or if they operate "behind the scenes" via private messages? It would be a HUGE red flag for me if somebody told me I couldn't get the opinion of others on AR or they wouldn't book me. Transparency is a beautiful thing and the questions you have are why we all frequent the website

Anyway, I'd hate to see the good agents get lumped in or be mistakenly confused for the one you're mentioning. Just my .02

Edit:

My guess is the agent is concerned about the verbiage of the contract, especially if it's one sided towards the agent. Hopefully the agent will chime in with why he feels it's not ok to get the opinion of fellow hunters here on AR. I respect the opinions of a lot of guys on AR, most have "been there, done that" and I appreciate their insight

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Cal,

There was one immediate red flag. The just trust me, we won't do what it says in the contract.


I wish you would tell us who this booking agent is because I book 75% of my hunts here on AR. Obviously I haven't booked with this agent yet but I'd like to know who to ignore from now on. I do have my suspicions so even if you don't tell us, it will make most of us a lot more cautious when dealing with the agents on here.

It sounds very "Blair" if you know what I'm saying! This is why I'm wondering if it's him operating behind the scenes. He'd be gun shy enough to put out a ridiculous contract and he hates the members enough to request not being brought up in the forum. I cannot, for the life of me, see an agent that actually frequents the forum not wanting a client to get opinions on the forum. That would be contempt for the very people you rely on to make a living.

I can't think of anything that can't be covered in two pages. One for fees, and what's included/not included and this includes Africa. And the second page a liability release that simply says "you know this is dangerous right? Here is why this is dangerous ..." Ok, carry on.

11 pages. Wow.

Why would someone ask you to give up all recourse in every conceivable situation?

Yes. Odd.

I would never ever book with this type of contract.

1 page or less IMO. My friend is an Outfitter here locally (Utah/Wyoming). I doubt that his contract is 1/2 of a page!

I,m still dying to know who it was.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The agent would not book me if I posted on AR as "...there are far too many there who would love to turn this into some conspiracy to defraud a member even if they have zero experience in booking hunts."
Thanks for your input. I hope the agent will come on here and set the record straight as to his contract. He has his reasons why he uses such a complicated writ but should have nothing to hide from anyone or AR members as he posts here very often. But, that is his call, not mine. I just wanted to get feedback on the situation as it is new territory to me. My African contracts are a simple one page agreement.
Again, thank you and all who replied and PM'ed.
Cal

Cal,

One thing that's bothered me about this is that there are quite a few agents that utilize the free advertising on Accurate Reloading, courtesy of Saeed, to book quite a few hunts. I know a few of the agents and think they are great guys so my question is if this agent operates and advertises openly on AR or if they operate "behind the scenes" via private messages? It would be a HUGE red flag for me if somebody told me I couldn't get the opinion of others on AR or they wouldn't book me. Transparency is a beautiful thing and the questions you have are why we all frequent the website

Anyway, I'd hate to see the good agents get lumped in or be mistakenly confused for the one you're mentioning. Just my .02

Edit:

My guess is the agent is concerned about the verbiage of the contract, especially if it's one sided towards the agent. Hopefully the agent will chime in with why he feels it's not ok to get the opinion of fellow hunters here on AR. I respect the opinions of a lot of guys on AR, most have "been there, done that" and I appreciate their insight

The agent who sent me the contract is very well known here. I can't comment on his bookings as I've never used an agent before and looked into it now as the agent PM'd me in reply to my looking for experience in hunting the lower 48 states. I would hope he comes on here to explain to the many comments here. I'm sure it will come out in the future but it would be nice for the gent to make his appearance on his own. From the replies, I'm glad I didn't go with this. Tomorrow I am sending a check to the outfitter for the elk hunt and that leaves only four to go: white tail, mule deer, pronghorn and mt. lion.
Cheers all. Thanks for your comments and posts and we'll see where this goes. It would be interesting to see what replies come from the Africa hunting threads as the agent does send lots of folks to Africa.
Cal

I don't see how this guy can stay in business .

Either he doesn't know about this thread or is too chicken shit to address it. If he outs himself , I imagine he will suffer from loss of business .

I sent the contract to a few mates to ask their opinion. They may make the choice to post it here. As to the agent watching the thread, I know he views the posts as a good way to drum up business. He noticed my post within 24 hours. Time will tell. However, that said, it seems AR never forgets--Blair WW and Bushwack in South Africa.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
He noticed my post within 24 hours. Time will tell…
Cal

Proper damage control takes time...

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I sent the contract to a few mates to ask their opinion. They may make the choice to post it here. As to the agent watching the thread, I know he views the posts as a good way to drum up business. He noticed my post within 24 hours. Time will tell. However, that said, it seems AR never forgets--Blair WW and Bushwack in South Africa.
Cal

Well, simply by the process of elimination, I am guessing it's Mark Young?

I don't think the contract on my Southern Missouri .625 acre "ranch" had as many pages as the contract presented to Cal.

Yes.....5/8ths

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I sent the contract to a few mates to ask their opinion. They may make the choice to post it here. As to the agent watching the thread, I know he views the posts as a good way to drum up business. He noticed my post within 24 hours. Time will tell. However, that said, it seems AR never forgets--Blair WW and Bushwack in South Africa.
Cal

Well, simply by the process of elimination, I am guessing it's Mark Young?

Surely he's smarter than that. He spends a lot of time on the forum and while I haven't always seen eye to eye with the guy I cannot imagine he'd be so stupid as to alienate the customer base on a free forum with a ridiculous contract and derogatory comments. Who knows. Now I'm really curious

Yup. It may be Mark, I don't know, but it makes no sense .

Wow, Not only would I never hunt with a guy like this, or through a guy like this, I'd consider it an insult, and tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Looking at Cal's thread about wanting to hunt the lower 48

I see only one consultant that responded directly to his post

I doubt X100 it's him.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Looking at Cal's thread about wanting to hunt the lower 48

I see only one consultant that responded directly to his post

I believe Cal said it was by PM and not on the thread that he was contacted.