quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . I've actually answered your question . . . twice.

No you didn't. You played lawyer and used diversion.
So if you answered my question and I missed it I apologize for asking it again. It's really a simple question.

5.2 BY SIGNING ON THE SIGNATURE PAGE OF THIS AGREEMENT, I CERTIFY THAT I HAVE READ THIS ENTIRE DOCUMENT AND FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS AND THE TYPE OF RISKS INHERENT IN SUCH TRIPS. IN CONSIDERATION OF, AND AS PART PAYMENT FOR THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS TRIP, AND THE ACTIVITIES (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO HUNTING), TRANSPORTATION, SERVICES AND FOOD ARRANGED FOR ME BY THE COMPANY, THE OUTFITTER/SAFARI OPERATOR, OR THE SUPPLIERS. I, THE CLIENT, (THE RELEASOR) AGREE ON BEHALF OF MYSELF AND ANY MINORS ACCOMPANYING ME TO INDEMNIFY, HOLD HARMLESS AND RELEASE THE COMPANY, ITS OWNERS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, ASSOCIATES, AND THE OUTFITTER/SAFARI OPERATOR AND ITS OWNERS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, ASSOCIATES (HEREINAFTER COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE RELEASEES) FOR ANY ACCIDENTS, CLAIMS, LOSSES, DAMAGES OR LIABILITIES, INCLUDING DEATH, DISABILITY, INJURY OR LOSS OR DAMAGE TO RELEASEOR OR RELEASOR’S MINOR CHILD OR RELEASOR’S PROPERTY, WHICH MIGHT OCCUR DURING THE ACTIVITIES OF THIS TRIP, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THOSE LOSSES ARISING OUT OF THE JOINT OR CONCURRENT, ACTIVE OR PASSIVE NEGLIGENCE, GROSS NEGLIGENCE, ACTIONS, WRONGFUL ACTS, OMISSION AND OR STRICT LIABILITY OF RELEASEES. I EXPRESSLY WAIVE ANY SUCH RIGHT TO RECOVER FOR THESE MATTERS. I EXPRESSLY ASSUME ANY AND ALL SUCH RISKS WITH RESPECT TO THE ACTIVITIES AND CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THOSE DESCRIBED HEREIN, AND AGREE NOT TO SUE OR MAKE CLAIM AGAINST ALL THE RELEASEES ON ACCOUNT OF _______________  ANY SUCH LOSSESS, CLAIMS, COSTS, LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES. FUTHER I AGREE NOT TO CLAIM THE UNENFORCEABILITY OF THIS AGREEMENT OR THIS RELEASE. I AGREE THAT THE FOREGOING OBLIGATION SHALL BE BINDING UPON ME PERSONALLY, AS WELL AS UPON MY HEIRS, ASSIGNS, EXECUTORS AND ADMINISTRATORS, AND MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY, AND SHALL ALSO BE BINDING UPON ANY MINORS ACCOMPANYING ME ON THIS TRIP.


Would you sign a contract containing this wording? Yes or No.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . I've actually answered your question . . . twice.

No you didn't. You played lawyer and used diversion.
So if you answered my question and I missed it I apologize for asking it again. It's really a simple question.

5.2 BY SIGNING ON THE SIGNATURE PAGE OF THIS AGREEMENT, I CERTIFY THAT I HAVE READ THIS ENTIRE DOCUMENT AND FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS AND THE TYPE OF RISKS INHERENT IN SUCH TRIPS. IN CONSIDERATION OF, AND AS PART PAYMENT FOR THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS TRIP, AND THE ACTIVITIES (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO HUNTING), TRANSPORTATION, SERVICES AND FOOD ARRANGED FOR ME BY THE COMPANY, THE OUTFITTER/SAFARI OPERATOR, OR THE SUPPLIERS. I, THE CLIENT, (THE RELEASOR) AGREE ON BEHALF OF MYSELF AND ANY MINORS ACCOMPANYING ME TO INDEMNIFY, HOLD HARMLESS AND RELEASE THE COMPANY, ITS OWNERS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, ASSOCIATES, AND THE OUTFITTER/SAFARI OPERATOR AND ITS OWNERS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, ASSOCIATES (HEREINAFTER COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE RELEASEES) FOR ANY ACCIDENTS, CLAIMS, LOSSES, DAMAGES OR LIABILITIES, INCLUDING DEATH, DISABILITY, INJURY OR LOSS OR DAMAGE TO RELEASEOR OR RELEASOR’S MINOR CHILD OR RELEASOR’S PROPERTY, WHICH MIGHT OCCUR DURING THE ACTIVITIES OF THIS TRIP, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THOSE LOSSES ARISING OUT OF THE JOINT OR CONCURRENT, ACTIVE OR PASSIVE NEGLIGENCE, GROSS NEGLIGENCE, ACTIONS, WRONGFUL ACTS, OMISSION AND OR STRICT LIABILITY OF RELEASEES. I EXPRESSLY WAIVE ANY SUCH RIGHT TO RECOVER FOR THESE MATTERS. I EXPRESSLY ASSUME ANY AND ALL SUCH RISKS WITH RESPECT TO THE ACTIVITIES AND CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THOSE DESCRIBED HEREIN, AND AGREE NOT TO SUE OR MAKE CLAIM AGAINST ALL THE RELEASEES ON ACCOUNT OF _______________  ANY SUCH LOSSESS, CLAIMS, COSTS, LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES. FUTHER I AGREE NOT TO CLAIM THE UNENFORCEABILITY OF THIS AGREEMENT OR THIS RELEASE. I AGREE THAT THE FOREGOING OBLIGATION SHALL BE BINDING UPON ME PERSONALLY, AS WELL AS UPON MY HEIRS, ASSIGNS, EXECUTORS AND ADMINISTRATORS, AND MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY, AND SHALL ALSO BE BINDING UPON ANY MINORS ACCOMPANYING ME ON THIS TRIP.


Would you sign a contract containing this wording? Yes or No.

Just the last sentence alone in 5.2 where it talks about it being binding to heirs, etc., is absolute BS IMHO!

Gentlemen:
I've been away buying building materials in the city for an addition to my home. Please forgive my absence.

My only intent was posted in the opening post. I had never seen such a complicated contract and wanted to know if such a thing was the norm for American hunting. I do not use booking agents as they are basically a middle man and for what little hunting I have done all has been fine and what hasn't agent or no would not have made a difference. I did not mention the agent's name as it was not my intention and the answers I sought could/would be had without a name.

As the discussion here progressed folks seem to be more angered at the agent for 1. not coming on here to offer an explanation, 2). continuing to advertise his hunts on the free forum here, 3). refusing to book me should I ask any questions here on AR.

Now that it's been about a week and has received a good number of replies and several thousand views. Over this time I have developed a disgust and complete mistrust of the agent for the reasons listed above and am quite taken back by his "screw you" attitude toward the members here, especially when asked directly to offer his explanation and/or opinion. Should I need an agent for a future hunt there is absolutely no doubt I will go elsewhere.

As to Mike Jines. Mike, I didn't know you were a lawyer. From your initial post here I gather you are not in favor of my posting here. However, I would find it difficult to ask specific questions and generate a discussion about specifics in the contract by asking general questions. I think you would agree with that. Now I've only been on the witness stand once in my life but attorneys on both sides were very specific and detailed in the questions they asked me and in my answers they sought. Frostbit asked you a specific question and, no, you didn't' answer him as his question required a simple "yes" or "no" answer. Yours was a politician's answer. So, I will ask you, would you sign this contract if it was offered to you from a used car salesman? I understand how many lawyers think and speak (i.e. Bill Clinton's asking what the definition of "is" is--remember that?). Perhaps one of the reasons we are disgusted with politicians is that the majority of them are lawyers. (I hope you are not carrying over your anti-Trump feelings from the political forum here and directing them indirectly toward me as I would vote for Trump for President or Pope--LOL {I pen this in jest}). Additionally, one thing that I have remembered over the years from friends who attended law school and from children of friends who now attend. They have all said: "In law school we learn about the law half of the time and how to get around the law the other half."

I still would like to see the agent come on here and many would--but we won't hold our breath. A couple of gents here have been a bit angered with me for not mentioning his name but I don't regret starting this thread as it has been very educational for me and perhaps for some others. It has also shown me the character of the agent for wanting me to sign all of my rights away (and my heirs, assigns, executors and administrators, as well as members of my family and minor children) and not offering a "why." And, while he says to trust him and he is not going to screw me--that language is not in the contract and the contract plainly states only the language in the contract is binding--none else. Offering an assurance of trust, by his own contract, is is meaningless.

So and again, I'm pleased I began this discussion, I have enjoyed all of your comments and I'm sure it will continue on for a bit. I thank you all.
Cal
PS. Mike--yes or no?
And, Mike, the wording I posted here from the contract is a cut and paste--I did not change anything.
Third, "crook" is your word, not mine. I just was asking why...

Mike:
I re read the past few posts and I will make it clear.
When I agreed to the hunt the contract was emailed to me. I emailed the agent that the contract was long and complicated and it would take a few days for me to digest all of the information. I also stated I would like to ask an attorney friend his opinion and also ask opinions of those on AR.

The agent emailed in return for me to read it carefully and to trust him. He did not mention my desire to ask an attorney. He stated if I went to AR we would not book me. I did not ask him to change anything nor did he express a concern of any specific part of the contract I had trouble with.

After reading through the contract I emailed I would pass on the hunt. His reply was that was unfortunate as it was just the hunt I wanted. We have not communicated since. Shortly after, the outfitter contacted me offering me the hunt and we had a good conversation on the phone. He will pay the agent a commission for the introduction. His contract was a simple few lines.

Cheers, mate.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike:
I re read the past few posts and I will make it clear.
When I agreed to the hunt the contract was emailed to me. I emailed the agent that the contract was long and complicated and it would take a few days for me to digest all of the information. I also stated I would like to ask an attorney friend his opinion and also ask opinions of those on AR.

The agent emailed in return for me to read it carefully and to trust him. He did not mention my desire to ask an attorney. He stated if I went to AR we would not book me. I did not ask him to change anything nor did he express a concern of any specific part of the contract I had trouble with.

After reading through the contract I emailed I would pass on the hunt. His reply was that was unfortunate as it was just the hunt I wanted. We have not communicated since. Shortly after, the outfitter contacted me offering me the hunt and we had a good conversation on the phone. He will pay the agent a commission for the introduction. His contract was a simple few lines.

Cheers, mate.
Cal

What I find more baffling than Mark's unwillingness to explain things on AR is why the outfitter didn't post the hunt himself. I am simply blown away by the number of outfitters that don't post hunts themselves. In this day and age, you should be able to post your own hunts; the collective experiences of AR members are a lot more valuable than the opinion of the agent.

A few years ago I toyed with the idea of staring a booking agent "co-op." The idea is you join the coop for a modest fee to cover setup and admin costs, then get the booking commission deducted from your hunt. We would share results of the hunt, etc. but privately.

Anyone game for this? I could have one of my developers set up the website...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
A lot of the fuss being made here seems to be lost on me.

If you don't like what's in the contract, can't read it, don't agree with it, are suspicious of it's limiting factors or don't want to sign it why not just MOVE ON.

Is it not enough that you don't agree with, or simply don't accept, another individual's business practice that you first have to dictate to them that they must come on to this Kangaroo court and DEFEND their chosen practices.

Vote with your feet and your wallet and let others make the same choice FOR THEMSELVES.

Exactly! This all seems very childish to me.

Cal,

My personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less . . . I think that this thread was started for the primary purpose of calling out the agent . . . but doing so in a non-explicit way. A way that would enable the oblique response that the thread was merely intended to open a dialogue on contract terms and conditions proposed by outfitters and agents generally. Am I a mindreader? Not hardly, but I know you are a smart man and I am confident that had this been an effort to open a general dialogue about contracting practices and typical terms and conditions in outfitter and agent contracts you understand as well as I do that the thread could have been opened and framed in just such a manner.

I have alway ascribed to the view that if I am given a contract I do not like, from a car dealer, a mortgage lender . . . or an outfitter or agent, I have a couple of options. One, I can walk away and be done with it. Two, I can offer my comments and observations to the contract provider and see if they are willing to accommodate my concerns. As I noted above, I do not recall ever signing a contract presented to me by a outfitter or an agent as proposed, all of them have been commented on and revised. This one would have been no different. (I guess I have now answered the question Jim posed three times now.)

In the final analysis, we agree to disagree on the approach taken in this instance. Internet blogs are wonderful places, great for sharing information and exchanging ideas . . . but sometimes I think there is a much more pernicious aspect to blogs as well . . . trial by Internet jury being one. Whether intended or unintended, that seems to be what is happening here.

Mike:
I continue to respect you, agree or not. You are a gentleman.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Exactly! This all seems very childish to me.

It is the AR way.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As I noted above, I do not recall ever signing a contract presented to me by a outfitter or an agent as proposed, all of them have been commented on and revised. This one would have been no different. (I guess I have now answered the question Jim posed three times now.

And I thank you for that Mike. You verified what I suspected. Not being a lawyer myself I have been a fool more than once in the last 6 years signing hunting contracts resembling the parts posted.

I have learned enough from this thread started by Cal and contributed to by you that I will not be signing any contracts in the future similarly written.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike:
I continue to respect you, agree or not. You are a gentleman.
Cal

Backatcha'.

there is really some fine people and gentlemen over here.

Fascinating!

The people I hunt with have never, ever offered me a contract!!?

I booked a hunt through Ray Atkinson, with Pierre Van Tonder.

On arrival at the camp, I was shown some papers.

I asked what that was, and Pierre said; "it is a contract, may be you want to look at it"

I said "I don't sign hunting contracts"

He said "That is fine by me, let us shakes hands"

That was all.

We had a great time, and hunted with him the following year too.

Both Ray and Pierre were perfect gentlemen.

quote:

He said "That is fine by me, let us shakes hands"

+1

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Cal,

My personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less . . . I think that this thread was started for the primary purpose of calling out the agent .

Perhaps you are right. I do not know what was in Cal's mind. However, I can tell you this. Before he sent me the contract to review, he made me give him my word that I would not reveal who the agent was. Further, he never uttered a single negative word about the agent.

Was he trying to call out the agent? IMHO, no. As stated earlier, I do not know what was going on in his mind. I could be wrong.

My intent was to call out the contract, not the agent. Larry is not alone. The others I sent the contract to I also asked them not to mention the agent. I have no quarrel with him. However over the last week I am a bit disgusted as explained prior.
Cal

Cal,

I would be interested to see a contract that appeases both parties if you have time to design one.

I would certainly use it if was demanded.

Best

Andrew

I also asked Cal to see the contract and he told me unequivocally that he had no quarrel with the agent and his question/concern was strictly related to the contract itself. He also made me promise to not reveal who the agent was to the forum.

I only asked to see it because of the stance of the agent regarding getting other opinions. I thought it was an agent from a thread just a couple below this one that was working behind the scenes and had contempt for the members here. I was quite surprised when I saw who it was and knew them to be a regular poster.

How was the agent called out in this thread? I don't know who he is despite having been a member for years.

The OP related a personal experience with a hunting contract and asked for other member's advice. I'd like to thank him and the others here for an education on a topic with which I was unfamiliar.

It'd be nice if every man in the industry was honorable and ethical wherein a handshake was all that was needed. We all know that not to be true.

I'm in an ornery mood today and this was as nicely as I could approach those accusing the OP of trying to "call out the agent".

I'd be curious how many hunts this M Young guy books every year? Is this 11 page contract standard procedure with him or does it vary with the outfitter? Probably a dumb question but I've never had to sign one prior to a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Cal,

I would be interested to see a contract that appeases both parties if you have time to design one.

I would certainly use it if was demanded.

Best

Andrew

Andrew, good day.
In the hunting world many friendships begin between clients and the PH or outfitter. With others it is strictly a business relationship. Regardless, some trust and fairness needs to be shared between the parties. Below is the contract I received form the elk outfitter. It is all he needs. It is all I need. I don't think he is going to do anything negative to me and I will pay my bills accordingly.

Entire contract from the elk outfitter (My check goes out Monday):
Name:
Address:
Phone:
email:
Emergency contact:
Hunt type: rifle-elk
Hunt cost including 6% tax: $3750
Lic & tag: not included
Harvest/wound fee: $1500
Deposit amount: $1250
Balance due: on or before 9-9-16
Hunt arrival date: 10-9-16, departure date: 10-16-16
Hunt days: 10-10-16 to 10-15-16 (6 days)
Refund policy: non-refundable but transferable
Client signature & date:
Outfitter signature & date:

What else needs to be done? The hunt, dates, terms, contact info are all there. The agent who sent me the contract that I originally posted about I doubt is not going to do anything negative to me as well. But I was taken back by the contract that was so complicated and legal in its terms that if he did do something to me I have signed away all rights.

I hope I answered your question, Andrew.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Cal,

My personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less . . . I think that this thread was started for the primary purpose of calling out the agent . . . but doing so in a non-explicit way. A way that would enable the oblique response that the thread was merely intended to open a dialogue on contract terms and conditions proposed by outfitters and agents generally. Am I a mindreader? Not hardly, but I know you are a smart man and I am confident that had this been an effort to open a general dialogue about contracting practices and typical terms and conditions in outfitter and agent contracts you understand as well as I do that the thread could have been opened and framed in just such a manner.

I have alway ascribed to the view that if I am given a contract I do not like, from a car dealer, a mortgage lender . . . or an outfitter or agent, I have a couple of options. One, I can walk away and be done with it. Two, I can offer my comments and observations to the contract provider and see if they are willing to accommodate my concerns. As I noted above, I do not recall ever signing a contract presented to me by a outfitter or an agent as proposed, all of them have been commented on and revised. This one would have been no different. (I guess I have now answered the question Jim posed three times now.)

In the final analysis, we agree to disagree on the approach taken in this instance. Internet blogs are wonderful places, great for sharing information and exchanging ideas . . . but sometimes I think there is a much more pernicious aspect to blogs as well . . . trial by Internet jury being one. Whether intended or unintended, that seems to be what is happening here.

Hi Mike.

I agree with your assessment on the reasons but disagree on your final analysis.

I consider myself a student of human behavior. Internet forums are an interesting classroom in that endeavor.

There is an interesting dynamic that forms. There are the forum cool kids and they kinda run the playground. If you say something contrary to the popular people (i.e. agent in question) you get the wrath.

It's easy to get the weight of a forum against you. If the cool kids push and you acquiesce, you've surrendered to popularity.

My analysis, If you're one of the cool kids, it doesn't matter what you do here, or on any forums. If you stand for what you personally find right or wrong, regardless of the popularity of it, you get clobbered.

I had a contrary opinion over on 24 hour, got my ass handed to me. The cool kids over there line up as sycophants behind a third rate gun writer. What he says goes, others opinion don't matter.

Its the same way here, just not as bad.

Forum's protect their own... period.

Steve, do you have a link to that 24HCF thread? You can PM if you'd rather. I do agree with your assessment of the forum mentality.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:


My analysis, If you're one of the cool kids, it doesn't matter what you do here, or on any forums.

I think the "cool kid" status is in constant flux on most "lightly" or unmoderated forums. On the heavy handed moderation forums you better lurk for a long time before posting.

I once got handed my lunch on a first post on a Cummins Diesel Forum because I asked a simple question, "What is a KDP". The acronym was commonly used. The first three replies were basically....read the beginner thread before posting "newbie". Very welcoming atmosphere there. I'm still a member but rarely post. That said it's the best spot on the web for accurate Cummins Diesel information. You just have to put on a Nomex suit before asking questions.

Cheers
Jim

BTW, Steve< love to see your "cool kid" list.

Personally, I welcome all viewpoints as it shows the balance we get here on AR. I rarely post on other forums as none can compare to AR. Even though Saeed and I give each other a few shots I am appreciative to him for the freedoms he allows all of us here.

A couple of folks are angered at me for not posting the agent's name. Some have guessed what my intentions were (are). Some believe I want to go after the agent in question. I've developed a thicker skin my years on AR and while many may disagree with me at times, the world would be a boring place if all thought as I do.

Perhaps one of you gents who has seen the entire contract would/could remove any and all information about the agent and his business, as well as the outfitter and his business and post the contract here for all to see. That was another critical comment towards myself that I didn't put it all on AR. Maybe then all questions will be answered for those who have benefited from the "educational" theme of this thread.

Yes, I think it as made some aware of contracts and what is acceptable or not. It has also made some aware of the attitude an agent may have toward the membership here. However, we will never know that until the agent can man-up and offer some explanations for such a one sided document. Many here feel a slap in the face from a gent who advertises here but won't explain his business practices--a very simple thing to do early on but more complex to do as time goes by.

I don't regret posting what I did here and thank all of you for you comments, both positive and negative. It will be interesting to see how long this goes and the outcome. Again, for those with the contract and more computer skills than I can muster, feel free post the entire document here but please remove all mention of the agent and his name and the outfitter, too.

Cheers, gents.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Steve, do you have a link to that 24HCF thread? You can PM if you'd rather. I do agree with your assessment of the forum mentality.

Should be easy for you to find. I believe it was you who referred to me as an "Egocentric, unethical, slob."

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Steve, do you have a link to that 24HCF thread? You can PM if you'd rather. I do agree with your assessment of the forum mentality.

Should be easy for you to find. I believe it was you who referred to me as an "Egocentric, unethical, slob."

I vote one out of three.

My wife agree's

What is so seemingly mystical about this contract? I would venture a guess that a very high percentage of the outfitter and agent contracts that have been signed for years have defects and issues if submitted for critique. Cal, you seem to think signing that little one pager is a good thing . . . another perspective is that being silent on issues like what "transferable" means (e.g., to another person, to next year, to later this year, to another area, etc.) and the like is just asking for problems down the road. How many contracts from Zim operators include provisions that no person on the Treasury Department's restricted persons list will directly or indirectly receive any compensation? Or address the possibility of USFWS actions that might impact the target species? We can fly speck the heck out of this particular contract and all that will show is that it is an imperfect contract . . . like I would guess the vast majority used by others are too. A better exercise would be for someone to post what they believe is the ideal contract, one that fairly balances the rights of the client and outfitter/agent. I would be happy to post one . . . just that I have never seen one.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
A better exercise would be for someone to post what they believe is the ideal contract, one that fairly balances the rights of the client and outfitter/agent. I would be happy to post one . . . just that I have never seen one.

Why not write one for us all to emulate?

Seriously!!

That certainly would then make this thread worthwhile in your mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
A better exercise would be for someone to post what they believe is the ideal contract, one that fairly balances the rights of the client and outfitter/agent. I would be happy to post one . . . just that I have never seen one.

Why not write one for us all to emulate?

Seriously!!

That certainly would then make this thread worthwhile in your mind.

It would be so apropos if MJines is an attorney.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Steve, do you have a link to that 24HCF thread? You can PM if you'd rather. I do agree with your assessment of the forum mentality.

Should be easy for you to find. I believe it was you who referred to me as an "Egocentric, unethical, slob."

Hahaha!

May be he should look in the mirror!?

He seems to have a lot of problems finding posts on the Internet

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:


It would be so apropos if MJines is an attorney.

He is.

One might think that a group like SCI or DSC, even a group like PHASA or SOAZ, would develop a standard form of outfitting contract that they would publish and urge their outfitter and agent members to adopt and use . . . one that is balanced and middle of the road . . . that is periodically updated to reflect current developments . . . one that clients could rely upon as being an industry standard. Very common in many industries for standard forms of contracts (real estate, construction, natural gas, electricity to name a few) to exist that are designed to make it easier for buyers and sellers to transact and to try and strike a balance between the interests of buyers and sellers.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Steve, do you have a link to that 24HCF thread? You can PM if you'd rather. I do agree with your assessment of the forum mentality.

Should be easy for you to find. I believe it was you who referred to me as an "Egocentric, unethical, slob."

Hahaha!

May be he should look in the mirror!?

He seems to have a lot of problems finding posts on the Internet

Oh, you were that arrogant clown over there. Here's the thread in case anyone is interested. Steve A is chipolopolo FWIW.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...php/topics/9696984/1

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Steve, do you have a link to that 24HCF thread? You can PM if you'd rather. I do agree with your assessment of the forum mentality.

Should be easy for you to find. I believe it was you who referred to me as an "Egocentric, unethical, slob."

Hahaha!

May be he should look in the mirror!?

He seems to have a lot of problems finding posts on the Internet

Oh, you were that arrogant clown over there. Here's the thread in case anyone is interested. Steve A is chipolopolo FWIW.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...php/topics/9696984/1

Arrogant Clown, Noted.

Yet another personal insult.

I'm sure it's not the first time you've heard it. I'll give you credit though SA, at least you've got the cahones' to answer, whereas "you know who" does not.

Sorry for the hijack OP.

Gents:
Perhaps another positive that may come from this thread would be for those in the know, like Mike and others, would be to draft a contract for all to see. it would be fair as the gent that writes it up has no dog in the fight therefore it will be balanced. Granted, it won't be the final and last word but it would give the unknowing (such as myself) a place to begin and discuss; to gain knowledge as what to ask for if it's not in a contract and what to look for to raise a red flag.

Again, and to start, perhaps someone can edit the contract in question here to delete any info on the agent and let's dissect it here on AR. It's is obvious the agent has no interest in letting us know his side of the story and his reasoning for using such a one-sided writ.

Let's do it.

Cheers,
Cal

Personally I think this thread has taken quite a turn and doesn't resemble anything I'm interested in seeing taken any farther.

IOW....

I have no interest in seeing the contract in question or a revised one.

Definitely not North American Hunting. If you want to discuss hunting contracts and outfitters there is a better forum to post under

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Personally I think this thread has taken quite a turn and doesn't resemble anything I'm interested in seeing taken any farther.

IOW....

I have no interest in seeing the contract in question or a revised one.

Definitely not North American Hunting . If you want to discuss hunting contracts and outfitters there is a better forum to post under

I believe the contract was for a North American Elk hunt.