Every hunting contract I have ever seen has been totally one sided - it is always offered by the outfitter/booking agent and it totally favors them.

For African hunting I don't normally care cause all the liabilities being waived would have to be enforced in Africa anyway. The outfitter/booking agents have reputation as risk and a place like AR can definitely damaged one business if one is screwing hunters/clients.

For North America, Europe and Australia where rule of law applies I would not be a hurry to sign away all rights.

Mike

Being new to this forum and new to hunting with a contract, guide and outfitter. Cal brings up a good point.
I think it would be a great idea if someone would write a short tutorial on how and what to look for when deciding on a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Personally I think this thread has taken quite a turn and doesn't resemble anything I'm interested in seeing taken any farther.

IOW....

I have no interest in seeing the contract in question or a revised one.

Definitely not North American Hunting . If you want to discuss hunting contracts and outfitters there is a better forum to post under

I believe the contract was for a North American Elk hunt.

Yes it was indeed originaly about North Amerca Elk....sorta

But unlike the sentence you made BOLD....sentence #1 adds a bit more.....5 pages ago this was about an elk hunt contract thread

It is mearly about verbiage now

By all means please cary on for at least 5 more pages

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Personally I think this thread has taken quite a turn and doesn't resemble anything I'm interested in seeing taken any farther.

IOW....

I have no interest in seeing the contract in question or a revised one.

Definitely not North American Hunting . If you want to discuss hunting contracts and outfitters there is a better forum to post under

I believe the contract was for a North American Elk hunt.

Yes it was but unlike the sentence you made BOLD....sentence #1 adds a bit more.....5 pages ago this was about an elk hunt contract

It is mearly about verbiage now

By all means cary on for at least 5 more

Thanks for your permission Ted. Blair's thread is at 31 pages. Perhaps you are right though. Maybe this thread should be copied to the Offered and Discounted hunts forum to educate everyone about carefully reading and altering (as MJines has to every hunting contract he ever signed) a contract so as not to forfeit their rights.

Thanks again Cal.

Do you intend to take this thread into the same realm as that thread?

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Do you intend to take this thread into the same realm as that thread?

Since you asked me a direct question we are now one more post towards that end.

Yes?

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yes?

Now two more steps closer.

Ted,

What's it matter what the OP topic of the thread was and where it has headed. I once had a hunt report become of discussion of 1970 Plymouth Superbirds. I kid you not. Who cares?

It's an internet forum. Also called a "DISCUSSION BOARD".

How's the weather in Missouri? We hit 80 here the other day. Almost killed me with 19 hours of sunlight.

Steve Ahrenburg told me it was 120 in Pheonix yesterday trying to make me feel better.

Cheers
Jim

The great thing about AR and the USA is if we don't like something we can ignore it or move on. Some suggested I should have moved on and not posted here. Freedom to choose is absolutely wonderful.
Ted: I enjoy your posts and other communication. I'm sorry you won't be joining us here any longer.
Cheers, mate.
Cal
PS. How close is Phoenix to Hell? Temperature, I mean.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:


My analysis, If you're one of the cool kids, it doesn't matter what you do here, or on any forums.

I think the "cool kid" status is in constant flux on most "lightly" or unmoderated forums. On the heavy handed moderation forums you better lurk for a long time before posting.

I once got handed my lunch on a first post on a Cummins Diesel Forum because I asked a simple question, "What is a KDP". The acronym was commonly used. The first three replies were basically....read the beginner thread before posting "newbie". Very welcoming atmosphere there. I'm still a member but rarely post. That said it's the best spot on the web for accurate Cummins Diesel information. You just have to put on a Nomex suit before asking questions.

Cheers
Jim

BTW, Steve< love to see your "cool kid" list.

Well I hope you tabbed that "killer dowel pin" and replaced the 5th gear nut while you were at it provided you have the NV4500 in it. BTW, call me if you ever decide to sell that 12 valve. That being said, don't ever sell it

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:


My analysis, If you're one of the cool kids, it doesn't matter what you do here, or on any forums.

I think the "cool kid" status is in constant flux on most "lightly" or unmoderated forums. On the heavy handed moderation forums you better lurk for a long time before posting.

I once got handed my lunch on a first post on a Cummins Diesel Forum because I asked a simple question, "What is a KDP". The acronym was commonly used. The first three replies were basically....read the beginner thread before posting "newbie". Very welcoming atmosphere there. I'm still a member but rarely post. That said it's the best spot on the web for accurate Cummins Diesel information. You just have to put on a Nomex suit before asking questions.

Cheers
Jim

BTW, Steve< love to see your "cool kid" list.

Well I hope you tabbed that "killer dowel pin" and replaced the 5th gear nut while you were at it provided you have the NV4500 in it. BTW, call me if you ever decide to sell that 12 valve. That being said, don't ever sell it

Drum,

When we hunted Pronghorn in CO last October with Eric there was a young guy in camp from Texas that manages one of the hunting properties there. Every time I walked outside he was looking in the truck. He finally just came out and asked if I would sell it. That was when it was still sporting its factory peeler paint job. Happened about twice a month while driving through Texas. They love their 12 valves.

Recently had the front clip painted.

Sorry Buddy, no sale. Probably leave it to one of my great nephews after death.

Just had the 47RE bomb proofed with triple disc TC, billet input shaft, valve body and a handful of other goodies.

Next week, KDP fix, EGT, Boost, and Trans temp gauges, 60 pound valve springs, #8 plate, 3k GSK, AFC tune, CAI, 4 inch turbo back exhaust, BD exhaust brake with autoloc switch. Then she'll be the truck Dodge should have built in '96.

I bought it used in 2000, or it would have the NV5600 6 speed and duallys.

Cheers
Jim

BTW, just to stay on topic, I did not sign a contract with the transmission builder.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yes?

Now two more steps closer.

Ted,

What's it matter what the OP topic of the thread was and where it has headed. I once had a hunt report become of discussion of 1970 Plymouth Superbirds. I kid you not. Who cares?

It's an internet forum. Also called a "DISCUSSION BOARD".

How's the weather in Missouri? We hit 80 here the other day. Almost killed me with 19 hours of sunlight.

Steve Ahrenburg told me it was 120 in Pheonix yesterday trying to make me feel better.

Cheers
Jim

I think a few people got Cal wrong.

Cal stated very clearly right at the outset that he was concerned when the agent said he would not book him if he went on AR forum!

Now that is a very valid response from Cal. If you want to sell the hunt on AR then answer the questions on AR - simple.

But then I see that the agent forwarded Cal's contact to the outfitter & cal booked with the outfitter. So the agent was trying to provide the service in good faith - helping out the outfitter AND the client. The outfitter was going to pay him the commission!

I guess the agent would not have had a complex contract with the outfitter! I was probably a gentlemen's agreement!

From this I conclude (yes I do claim to understand human behaviour very well & accurately predict character - most of the time) that
1. The Agent was trying to provide good service & hence gave Cal's contact details to the outfitter
2. The agent got the contract from a lawyer (after he got burnt in the past?) and did not consider its implications
3. The agent was careless in making a comment about AR forum etc.

Final point - thanks to Cal for posting this thread and for the discussion. I have faced a similar contract with a business agent in the US who tried to make me his slave and work for him at a potential loss! Among the most stressful times of my business career!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yes?

Now two more steps closer.

Ted,

What's it matter what the OP topic of the thread was and where it has headed. I once had a hunt report become of discussion of 1970 Plymouth Superbirds. I kid you not. Who cares?

It's an internet forum. Also called a "DISCUSSION BOARD".

How's the weather in Missouri? We hit 80 here the other day. Almost killed me with 19 hours of sunlight.

Steve Ahrenburg told me it was 120 in Pheonix yesterday trying to make me feel better.

Cheers
Jim

When I got up at 4:30 this morning for my four mile run it was 94 degrees; i could not believe it. Now in Monroe, LA and must say it feels quite comfortable.

I personally don't understand the fuss; ask yourself: are you better off having read this thread or worse off? Did Cal do a service for you or perhaps make you look at future contracts closer?

In South Africa last month I was asked to sign an NDA for my SW company. It had open ended liability for harmful disclosure. Among other things, I asked that limit to be limited to the value of our software. No problem.

I imagine more than one person has signed a contract without looking at it. If this post causes one AR member to look more closely at a contract, that is a good thing. Obviously if you think an 11 page contract is overkill you won't book a hunt with Mark Young. If you don't mind, it won't matter.

Overall, the benefit of the post is positive.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


When I got up at 4:30 this morning for my four mile run it was 94 degrees; i could not believe it. Now in Monroe, LA and must say it feels quite comfortable.

`

Holy crap. Monroe, LA, huh? Hope you're on your way to a better place for vacation ....

I don't understand the concept of booking agents. Well, I do, but I don't know why people wouldn't want to book directly with the outfitter they are dealing with. Booking agents make no sense to me, but alas, I am a simple minded Alaskan.

What I do know, is that Cal was my favorite teacher in high school. I think his inquiry and curiosity about the contract was entirely appropriate, and in good faith. If anything, it provided a useful discussion for the many members here, as to the purpose and nuances of booking agents.

Good day, gents.
It's evening here and most of you are resting to begin another day. It will be hotter than hell here tomorrow with the temps reaching upper 60s to 70 degrees. But I digress to hijack my own thread.

To get back on track, please allow me to propose the following:

1. Please post what you feel is acceptable in language for a hunting contract. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not asking you to write your own contract. Just share with interested members what you would like to see to protect yourself as well as protect the agent, PH, outfitter.

2. Please also post what items you feel are not acceptable and if you saw them you would not sign.

3. To make this complete, someone please edit the contract for my elk hunt (I sent to a few gents) and post it here in its entirety--minus (of course) any references to the agent or outfitter. I'm not computer savvy enough to do so.

In speaking to many members here via phone, email, and PM, many (I'm paraphrasing) agree the agent in question would not have a problem if he 1) came on here early on to explain himself and his contract or 2) agreed to its complexity and one sidedness and offered to develop a more client friendly version.

I appreciate all of of your posts (176) and views (5000+).
Cheers,
Cal
PS. Adventure907--If I didn't give you and "A", I should have. Thanks for your comment. One of the benefits of not using an agent is a negotiable savings of the 15% fee the agent makes on the hunt. Many PHs have offered to reduce my hunt by this amount if I book directly with them.

Mr. Pappas,

As far as my memory recollects, you did give me an "A". While I wish I had had more classes with you, I do remember one in which was a social studies class that dealt with the "60's." At one point, you had even asked me to write out some study lesson slides for the overhead projector, as you felt I had excellent penmanship. Computers and printers were not quite in vogue yet in the period I studied. Its funny what the brain remembers after all these years.

Hell, I even remember talking to you about the 427 Vette with side pipes I believe you had at the time.

But, I digress. As a hunting guide myself in my later years, I too often wonder the benefit of booking agents for hunters. It seems the most direct, most affordable, with the least amount of chance for miscommunication, would be to book directly with the outfitter.

Throwing a middle man into the equation seems a little dysfunctional to me, but, it is what it is.

And so toward the end goal
we throw an otherwise completely legitimate and perfectly honest booking agent,
who has alledgedly looked after numbers of AR members previously, under the bus so that we can achieve easier to read and more concise hunt contracts.

Yeh, that makes perfect sense.

Screw the man's reputation and his business, that he has spent untold years building.

There are ways of sorting issues.

This way lacks character.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Cal,

I would be interested to see a contract that appeases both parties if you have time to design one.

I would certainly use it if was demanded.

Best

Andrew

Andrew, good day.
In the hunting world many friendships begin between clients and the PH or outfitter. With others it is strictly a business relationship. Regardless, some trust and fairness needs to be shared between the parties. Below is the contract I received form the elk outfitter. It is all he needs. It is all I need. I don't think he is going to do anything negative to me and I will pay my bills accordingly.

Entire contract from the elk outfitter (My check goes out Monday):
Name:
Address:
Phone:
email:
Emergency contact:
Hunt type: rifle-elk
Hunt cost including 6% tax: $3750
Lic & tag: not included
Harvest/wound fee: $1500
Deposit amount: $1250
Balance due: on or before 9-9-16
Hunt arrival date: 10-9-16, departure date: 10-16-16
Hunt days: 10-10-16 to 10-15-16 (6 days)
Refund policy: non-refundable but transferable
Client signature & date:
Outfitter signature & date:

What else needs to be done? The hunt, dates, terms, contact info are all there. The agent who sent me the contract that I originally posted about I doubt is not going to do anything negative to me as well. But I was taken back by the contract that was so complicated and legal in its terms that if he did do something to me I have signed away all rights.

I hope I answered your question, Andrew.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Very similar to mine. The deposit details require more attention especially towards the safari date. Refunds and transfer option need to be carefully outlined. The last hunts of the season are tricky for us as a cancellation could result in many thousands of dollars of unsold licenses.

Note it is difficult to tranfer the hunt if your quota is sold for the following year?

If AR came up with a contract I would use it as one AR member to another.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
And so toward the end goal
we throw an otherwise completely legitimate and perfectly honest booking agent,
who has alledgedly looked after numbers of AR members previously, under the bus so that we can achieve easier to read and more concise hunt contracts.

Yeh, that makes perfect sense.

Screw the man's reputation and his business, that he has spent untold years building.

There are ways of sorting issues.

This way lacks character.

What a load of BS. The contract is the tangible item being discussed, not the agent's reputation (I still don't know who the agent is).

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
And so toward the end goal
we throw an otherwise completely legitimate and perfectly honest booking agent,
who has alledgedly looked after numbers of AR members previously, under the bus so that we can achieve easier to read and more concise hunt contracts.

Yeh, that makes perfect sense.

Screw the man's reputation and his business, that he has spent untold years building.

There are ways of sorting issues.

This way lacks character.

First of all, he isn't "thrown under the bus", he wrote or uses the completely one sided contract in his business and has the option to come on this thread to explain or defend it, but has chosen not to. What does that say about his lack of character, to use your phrase? If someone is not willing to explain in plain English his business practices, that brings his business into question IMO.

Second, he told the OP that if he dared to expose his contract on AR then he wouldn't book him. Damn. What kind of reputation and business does that show?

This contract tells me all I want to know about his "reputation" and business. If you want to sign all your legal rights away before you book a hunt with him or anyone else, that suits the hell out of me. I sure as hell don't and feel sure that many others in here feel the same way.

Finally, if as stated above, this makes all of us more aware of the dangers of trusting a "reputation" when signing a long and obscure contract. In short, don't.

I agree that the agent was not thrown under the bus. Cal went out of his way to not disclose the name as well as not make disparaging comments.

Cal never named him publicly. He only named him privately AFTER assurances that we would not disclose who the person was. In addition, he never made a single disparaging comment to me personally.

I respect your opinion Paul. However, I disagree with your conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
And so toward the end goal
we throw an otherwise completely legitimate and perfectly honest booking agent,
who has alledgedly looked after numbers of AR members previously, under the bus so that we can achieve easier to read and more concise hunt contracts.

Yeh, that makes perfect sense.

Screw the man's reputation and his business, that he has spent untold years building.

There are ways of sorting issues.

This way lacks character.

As other, I disagree. One of the stated functions of this venue, is to help others and vet service providers.

It shouldn't matter who that is. If the person in question, happens to be one of the "cool kids" or a forum favorite he or she is subject to the same questions that we may have about outfitters who keep deposits, play games with shipments or whatever.

Its all about the process, not the person's status on an internet forum.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Cal,

I do not recall ever signing a contract presented to me by a outfitter or an agent as proposed, all of them have been commented on and revised. This one would have been no different.

Here's your take home from this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
And so toward the end goal
we throw an otherwise completely legitimate and perfectly honest booking agent,
who has alledgedly looked after numbers of AR members previously, under the bus so that we can achieve easier to read and more concise hunt contracts.

Yeh, that makes perfect sense.

Screw the man's reputation and his business, that he has spent untold years building.

There are ways of sorting issues.

This way lacks character.

Sorry you feel that way, Paul. It was not my intention. As to my lack of character, well, I apologize if I offended you in any way.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Cal,

I do not recall ever signing a contract presented to me by a outfitter or an agent as proposed, all of them have been commented on and revised. This one would have been no different.

Here's your take home from this thread.

That makes it 100%--no one who posted here would have signed the contract based on the (approximately) 1/2 page I posted.

It will be interesting to see the comments when the entire contract is posted here (minus the agent's and outfitter's name). I'm trying to work on this but my computer skills are poor. Can anyone offer any assistance? Do I cut and paste? School is out so i don't have any 10 year olds to help me.
Cheers,
Cal

There are lots of contracts I have been presented with that I would never consider signing, and similarly, contract provisions that I would never accept as proposed . . . does not mean that I then feel compelled to take such issues to The People's Court (Internet Version) or that I begrudge the person seeking the provision for asking for it in the first place. If we are going to put every outfitter and agent that has contracts and/or contract provisions that are one-sided as written on a do-not-contract-with list . . . might find your hunting and fishing options pretty limited.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
There are lots of contracts I have been presented with that I would never consider signing, and similarly, contract provisions that I would never accept as proposed . . . does not mean that I then feel compelled to take such issues to The People's Court (Internet Version) or that I begrudge the person seeking the provision for asking for it in the first place. If we are going to put every outfitter and agent that has contracts and/or contract provisions that are one-sided as written on a do-not-contract-with list . . . might find your hunting and fishing options pretty limited.

Defined:

This guy gets a pass, just because.

In my mind, an agent looks after my best interest, first and foremost. (at least mine does)

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Defined:

This guy gets a pass, just because.

In my mind, an agent looks after my best interest, first and foremost. (at least mine does)

A 'contraire. I have never booked with this person, never likely to book with this person, not sure I have ever even met the person, and he certainly does not enjoy "cool kid" or any other status with me. As to who an agent represents, follow the money . . . the agent is paid by the outfitter.

When I hire someone to preform a service for me (such as real estate agent) they have a fiduciary duty to me to keep my best interests foremost.

Would this not be the same when hiring a booking agent? I am putting my trust in him to get me what I want. But, by the contract presented here (albeit just a small part) I am signing away any and all rights I have. Do real estate agents ask buyers and/or sellers to sign away their rights? Used car salesmen? Attorneys?

It's all new to me, so just additional wonderments on my part.

Mike: would it serve to answer questions if the entire contract (minus the agent's ID) was posted here?

Cheers, mates.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Defined:

This guy gets a pass, just because.

A 'contraire. I have never booked with this person, never likely to book with this person, not sure I have ever even met the person, and he certainly does not enjoy "cool kid" or any other status with me. As to who an agent represents, follow the money . . . the agent is paid by the outfitter.

Sorry Mike,

I've never once seen anyone given a pass here. (except the chosen few) If there is something that gives pause to Cal, in my mind it gives me pause as well.

You're suggesting that some should slip through the cracks, or we might not have guys to book with.

My agent ALWAYS, 100 percent of the time looks after me. Right now, I am working on a hunt he doesn't even book. He is looking at it and doing due diligence, on my behalf.

I've booked many, many trips with him. When I booked for CAR, I wanted to go in 2011. He told me to wait till 2012 because the optimum dates for both Bongo/ moon phase and LDE/rut weren't available until then. Show me another agent that would do that and I'll eat my Bongo mount.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
When I hire someone to preform a service for me (such as real estate agent) they have a fiduciary duty to me to keep my best interests foremost.

. . . might want to check on that. In Texas, unless a buyer enters into a buyer's representation agreement with the realtor (which is usually not the case), the agent working with the buyer is actually representing the seller. You think a used car salesman is representing you? When you "hired" the booking agent, did you pay them . . . or is the outfitter paying them?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
There are lots of contracts I have been presented with that I would never consider signing, and similarly, contract provisions that I would never accept as proposed . . . does not mean that I then feel compelled to take such issues to The People's Court (Internet Version) or that I begrudge the person seeking the provision for asking for it in the first place. If we are going to put every outfitter and agent that has contracts and/or contract provisions that are one-sided as written on a do-not-contract-with list . . . might find your hunting and fishing options pretty limited.

A couple interesting points here.

I didn't see anything about a "do not contact list" mentioned by anyone else on this thread. Did you dream that one up Mike?

Secondly, I now believe after reading your "issues to The People's Court (Internet Version)" we can rest assured you will not be offering information from a negative personal experience that may help one of us to make a better decision in the future. Unless of course, it involves a Dentist and a Lion, which if you read John Jackson's presentation, you may owe the Dentist a public apology.

Just sayin'

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
And so toward the end goal
we throw an otherwise completely legitimate and perfectly honest booking agent,
who has alledgedly looked after numbers of AR members previously, under the bus so that we can achieve easier to read and more concise hunt contracts.

Yeh, that makes perfect sense.

Screw the man's reputation and his business, that he has spent untold years building.

There are ways of sorting issues.

This way lacks character.

Sorry you feel that way, Paul. It was not my intention. As to my lack of character, well, I apologize if I offended you in any way.
Cal

No offense taken by me personally whatsoever, though I pity the reputation of the agent who is being judged by omission/absence.

I want to say too that I have no idea who the agent is, or weather I know them or not.

What I may have not articulated properly is that personally I would have negotiated issues of concern face to face, person to person.

Did you not have specific requests for dates ?
Did you not have specifics for the hunt that pertain to you personally that may fall outside the standard parameters of the hunt offered ?

Is it my understanding that you wish to experience this hunt with a double rifle ?
Does that not put you under limitations that may not be able to be catered for by certain operators in certain areas ?
Are these not negotiations ?
Did you not negotiate this requirement with the agent/outfitter ?
How is this any different to any negotiations you may require to be applied to a contract you have concerns with ?



I understand, and apologise in advance, if you did attempt these negotiations face to face and they refused, but even if they refused, I still argue the agent's right to safeguard himself with a contract he has developed through trail and loss.
I just personally disagree he is being made to, and repeatedly called out to, represent/defend his chosen business practice on a public forum, the same public forum that some of the same people calling him out on refuse to post their own personal hunt reports for some of the same reasons.

I totally understand the concerns with contracts, I get that and have no issue with this thread if it solely dealt with concerns with, or discussing issues with, contracts, I just personally think it could have been dealt with better by omitting any reference to the outfitter, that's all and that's only my opinion that I know few here will agree with.

Paul:

There is little doubt that the long list of things covered no doubt come from past experience. Most of these are pretty obvious to me. I have no problem with these at all although it is annoying to read page after page of the obvious. The length didn't bother me. Waiving all rights under any circumstance did.

As someone who makes their living mired in details, I can appreciate the need for these details. However, the blanket waiver, I do not understand.

Was this the right way to handle this? That is a mater of opinion. Personally, I would have been a hell of a lot less likely to negotiate wording on this hunt than I would a 21 day full bag safari.

Thanks, Paul, for your thoughtful reply.
No dates were requested by me. There was one slot open this year and I'm retired so I can hunt any time.
We discussed the double rifle issue and it was no problem. I further discussed it with the outfitter later and it is not a problem with him. In my post asking info to hunt in the Lower 48 I mentioned my desire to hunt with a double. I spoke to one outfitter and he suggested I not hunt with him as his area is open range and shots are 3-400 yards. I appreciated his honesty. This agent's hunt he was selling was in a wooded area and the range limitations for a double are not a problem.
I understand your concern for the booking agent. I think it is a fair estimation that if he had come on early to explain his reasoning all would be fine. From the posts here most are taken back by his emailing me that if I went AR to get opinions of the contract he would not book me. That, coupled with his continuing to offer hunts on AR but ignoring direct questions to him on the matter, have set some folks back.
Anyway, gentlemen can disagree and still be gentlemen. I appreciate your feedback.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Paul:

There is little doubt that the long list of things covered no doubt come from past experience. Most of these are pretty obvious to me. I have no problem with these at all although it is annoying to read page after page of the obvious. The length didn't bother me. Waiving all rights under any circumstance did. Waiving all rights under any circumstance did.

As someone who makes their living mired in details, I can appreciate the need for these details. However, the blanket waiver, I do not understand.

Was this the right way to handle this? That is a mater of opinion. Personally, I would have been a hell of a lot less likely to negotiate wording on this hunt than I would a 21 day full bag safari.

Agree with you Larry, 100%.
Any document that waives all rights under any circumstances is a dead end road for any consumer but is it not right (I'm not a laywer so I will stand correcting on this) that the laws of the State/Country over-ride any contractual agreements ?
Can you contract against the law ? and if it is illegal then won't the law of the State/Country over-ride in a circumstance of dispute ?

quote:

Personally, I would have been a hell of a lot less likely to negotiate wording on this hunt than I would a 21 day full bag safari.

Exactly. Lots of wordage for a 5250$ hunt!!
Cal