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One of Us |
Well, are ALL of us that offer hunts on AR going to have to submit a copy of our contracts/Releases of Liability Waivers in a special topic section on here and see if we should be allowed to offer hunts on this site? What will it take, a 2/3rds. or 3/4ths. majority vote to get the AR Stamp of approval???? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Eleven pages, 400 replies, 10,300 views. Do I get a prize? Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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If encouraging people not to offer hunts on here is a prize, then you may have got it. I am probably wrong, which is no great feat for me, but I can see these 10 or 11 or however many pages turn out to be, having a negative effect on several levels concerning peoples willingness to post information about a hunt on any level and be crucified. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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CHC: Thanks for your opinion and post. I do hope you are wrong and I don't mean that in a negative way. My intention was not to do harm, but to ask questions and, hopefully open discussion on what is acceptable and what is not as to contract language. After this thread runs its course and an agent offers a contract such as the one offered me it may very well be questioned. That's not a bad thing. If an agent (or PH) offers a more user friendly contract based on mutual respect and trust it may, indeed, generate more business. In the end, the marketplace will decide what is acceptable and what is not. Please believe me, I have no ax to grind with any agent as I have never used one. The only "contracts" I have signed are simple agreements stating the facts and conditions of the hunt. I hope no one has any negative consequences from the topic discussed here. Mike Jines seems to be the only one to feel I had an agenda here. I did not! And, maybe there is a lesson to be learned on how an agent should not behave towards potential clients here on AR. Cheers, and let's hope for the best. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Sir, I know your intention was not to cause anyone, any problems. You were merely asking a question, nothing wrong with that. Maybe if more of us asked questions on such things, this would not have went the way it did. There is a saying, and I don't know if I can repeat exactly as it was told to me originally, but it goes something like this, "It Is Hard To Remember That Your Good Intentions Were To Drain The Swamp, When Your Ass Deep In Alligators". You merely done something that probably many of us would have done, it was just the audience that the received the message that caused the hub bub. Enjoy your hunts Sir, you have earned them, and this mess, just like a case of constipation, Will Pass.   Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Thanks, CHC, you're a gentleman. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal has not done anything wrong. He got a contract which he was very surprised about, and he asked questions on it. May be outfitters would have a re-think about a contract such as these. A better way would be for clients to refuse to sign something like these, and when the outfitters feel the result, things might change. May be would get stop crooked clients ripping off outfitters, and getting away with it. A negative subject is being discussed, and if we can lessen it happening again is all for the better. | |||
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I guess ones view of this thread depends on how one views the intent of the original poster . Some view this as Cal attempting to hammer Mark Young. Perhaps this even goes as far to some as wanting the AR kangaroo court to approve of this contract in question or perhaps all contracts. Others view this as Cal attempting to educate himself on the matter of contracts. Perhaps even helping others in the process. I can't sit here and say what was in Cal's mind. However, I can say what he communicated with me. He made me promise to never divulge who the contract was with. He also went out of his way to not disparage Mark Young. Was this all a smoke screen? Perhaps but I doubt it. The one thing that I observe that I think is ridiculous is that there are those bothered by the length of the contract. Gentlemen, that is simply insane. The length of the contract, long or short, means nothing. The words are what mean something. I am confident that a half page contract COULD be drafted that would be far worse than the contract sent to Cal. My good friend Mike Jines is right. One of the contracts posted is in the same league as Mark's even though it is short. In the final analysis, here is what I have learned. 1- A lot of us, me included, are guilty of not reading these contracts. 2- We should all pay more attention to the contracts and ask questions and/or negotiate terms. I personally see nothing wrong with the thread. Others see it differently. I respect the others opinion. I just see it differently. | |||
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+1 Larry JCHB | |||
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+1 here too Larry! | |||
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+1 Larry I do think the length and complexity of the contract matters. One can draft a totally one signed one page contract just as one can draft a totally one sided 11 or 20 page contract. But it is much easier and cheaper to review a one side one page contract and make changes and modification than to it on a 11 page contract. Having a lawyer review, modify, and negotiate Cal's contract would cost more than the hunt he was trying to go on. Mike | |||
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Larry is correct on all points except one: this idea being pushed by 2 or 3 members that there's "blood in the water" is nonsense. 2 takeaways for me: read and understand ALL contracts; and I just don't trust attorneys in general. | |||
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Larry, I too agree with your assessment. The purpose of the thread was to inform and educate, which I hope it has done. The contract at the source of this thread was present on AR from an advertiser, who was present on AR for quite some time and I presume he booked a number of AR members who either chose to accept the terms of this contract or simply didn't read it. If this thread is truly NOT about M.Young, and in the interests of protecting the AR membership and maintaining a level playing field, why would it NOT be requested of advertises here, who benefit from the advantage of free advertising, to provide their contracts for review publically. I'm finding it hard to understand why those that insist that this is NOT about M.Young keep deflecting back to M.Young and do not appear to have the conviction to their objections about the details provided in these contracts, that sign client's rights away, if those contracts belong to anyone BUT M.Young. Who, of you who objected to the terms of this contract, can assure me that there doesn't exist another dozen outfitters, or agents, currently on these forums with similar restrictions, or limitations, and how are we to know. MJines already pointed out one example immediately from a poster who didn't even realize that the simple, one page contract he signed contained very similar limitations as the contract which is the subject matter. Forgetting M.Young for a minute, how do we know that there are not numerous contracts, all worded differently, providing the same limitations and restrictions of rights for clients, currently existing as booking requirements for hunts advertised on this site free of charge, by other outfitters. | |||
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I don't know how we know Paul. I can only speak for myself. I have signed a lot of contracts. Admittedly, I may not have read them as closely as I should have. Here is what I can tell you: 1- I flatly refused to sign a contract in the Yukon. The contract was absurd. I had absolutely zero recourse no matter what. For example, if we never left the hotel, I had no recourse. They rolled over and let it ride. Guess what? Their horses wrecked my sat phone and some other gear permanently. What did I do about it? Nothing. 2- I pay attention to the financial details of contracts in Africa. I do not worry about the other things too much. The way I see it, I am not suing anyone in Africa. I doubt they will sue me. 3- I have signed quite a few that are reasonable. I have no problems with any of elements of the contract. Those are in several countries. 4- There are a few things I would never accept under any circumstance. Force Majuere is one of those things. 5- There are some that are booked over an e mail or a handshake. Never had a problem. I admit that is risky for both parties. I would never do it if I didn't trust the people. 6- I have only been really screwed one time. This was in New Zealand. This guy was a con artist. What he did was basic stealing. I told him if he screwed me, I would wreck his life and I did. Google Richard Nunnick. I think the important lesson here is to read the contracts. I know I will from now on. This doesn't mean that I won't take risks. if I do, I will knowingly take them. | |||
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The obvious answer is to READ their contract if you are contemplating booking with them. Seems simple to me. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Exactly what I learned. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I learned a lot. | |||
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As did I, probably not what was intended, but it has been a very informative discussion. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Gents: I guess this thread has run its course and it's time to put it to rest--I'm sure to Mark Young's appreciation and satisfaction. I would like to thank you all for contributing and to the thousands to viewed it. From the feedback gained, it was educational for some, interesting for others, and a place to vent for a few more. If only one is saved from being screwed by a one-sided contract then it was well worth it. At least many will know to read the entire document when presented to them by an agent, PH, or outfitter. I know I will. A few disagreed with me and the post, one said I was "chicken shit," but the percentage of negative comments was so low I think I did the right thing by starting the thread. Only one gent, Mike Jines, was quite repulsed by the entire thread and was very much against my postings, questioning my motive(s) and saw it as an attack on Mark--for his 49 posts. Because of the amount and intensity of Mike's scorn a dozen mates have speculated with me, via phone, PM, or email, if perhaps it was Mike who wrote the contract. Lawyer speak is different from human speak and Mike's answers to direct questions were worded like the contract was written--so average and normal folks can't understand. Anyway, gents, it was fun, interesting, educational, thought provoking. I hope to see many of you in Dallas in January. I'm off to Zimbabwe today so I will read any comments from Mike and others upon my return in a few weeks. Thanks, all. Cal PS. Mike, you're still a gentleman. _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Good luck Cal. | |||
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Nice try Cal. I have never written a contract for any agent or outfitter. No, my objection to the thread was the poor way, in my view, in which the issue was handled from the initial post onward, electing to try and adversely affect a man's business and livelihood versus having an informed general conversation on the good and bad of outfitting and agency contracts. I think when someone is giving details of the hunt they were considering booking, emailing out copies of the contract to anyone that asks, etc. they know (or should know) full well the identity of the company will eventually come out. In that respect you can take comfort in the fact that your mission was accomplished. Hopefully you have learned a little from this thread as well . . . Take care. Mike | |||
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Guys, FYI Mike Jines and I only know each other through AR. We've never met nor have he and I even discussed any work he might do for me. Cal brought up an interesting point in his last post that people had SPECULATED that Mike might have drawn up my contract. That is one problem with these discussions here on AR in that they often are based on speculation and one speculation spawns another and all of a sudden the speculations become a grand conspiracy. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Realistically speaking if you've done your homework, the length of the contract wouldn't matter even if you actually read it. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Between this and the tipping thread, I can tell that I am not the kind of client some booking agents want. I don't tip waitresses worth a damn since I got married and started having kids, and I can't see any of my next forays into Africa being wrought with heavy tipping. Those days the idea of shelling out another 15-30% onto the cost of a safari that I need but can't afford makes me want to puke. A contract that forces me to surrender a kidney and admit 100% fault is about as enticing. Neat that it got to 11 pages. Cal, thank you for opening up the communication lines on this subject. | |||
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To sum this up: thousands of different types of consumer transactions are carried out on the basis of printed, standardized, form contracts prepared by the SELLER or by an industry group to which the SELLER belongs. In this case, I would imagine that there are many guide and outfitter associations that hire a lawyer to draw up their contracts. In addition to the usual price and merchandise description these types of contracts include many and various "technical" provisions that purport to define the rights and duties of the parties in some detail. But, being drafted from the seller's perspective, these standard clauses are generally intended to minimize the seller's risks and responsibilities and minimize the buyer's remedies. The buyers are usually unaware of the detailed content of these standard forms at the time they sign them. They are usually given no real opportunity to read the document, and because the technical provisions are in fact written with legal language there is usually no attempt to full understand what is being said. In any case, whether understood nor not, these standard form contracts are usually not negotiable. The buyer may in some instances bargain over price, but the remaining contract terms are offered on a take it or leave it basis. The seller's agents usually have no authority to alter the document. So what do buyer's do. Well, he could go elsewhere, but often he runs into the same or similar contracts at the other guy's place. And so, because both buyer and seller have an interest in minimizing transaction cost and because buyers don't want to take the time to really protect themselves, they sign documents that completely favor the seller's interests, and then they must adhere to the terms if they want to receive the merchandise that is the subject of the contract. Much of this has to do with economics. It is closely related to supply and demand. The demand for hunting is very large. The supply is not as large. The human condition causes people to let go of their guard in order to have a chance to participate. And once again, the whole question is whether these standardized forms are unconscionable. The answer rests basically on overriding considerations of public policy. For example, a court would probably not uphold a clause where the seller attempted to limit his liability for personal injury he caused to someone by his own negligence. So for example, even if General Motors says in their contracts that they won't be liable to anyone who gets injured in one of their cars, that wouldn't probably be upheld as against public policy. But again, here, in these hunting contracts, I doubt seriously whether a court would rule that these contracts are unconscionable and against public policy for all but personal injury clauses. The bottom line. You spend your money and you take your chances if you are the type of person who wants what they want and has the money to pay for it. | |||
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Interesting 11 page thread!! In my business, I deal with contractual arrangements On a daily basis. One must always read and comprehend The terms and conditions before accepting. I generally always Modify and amend contacts before executing them. If the proposer Doesn't agree then we don't proceed. Simple really. Caveat Emptor guys.... My only query here is the "add on "that was told to Cal that if he brings this to AR He won't be booked?? Seems strange from an agent that uses this site frequently to promote his business. Cheers Nick PS. Hope you have a safe and prosperous safari in Zim Cal! | |||
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What I took away from this shit storm....disappointing at a second glance Mark Young asked that Cal not discuss his contract on AR...... I can understand why and it's easy to see now why after eleven pages and looking at the history of AR and such threads Mark still gave the OP the contact info that he needed to hunt elk. He didn't have to do that by the way.... For his efforts he received this eleven page qem as a gratuity Yes.....I also learned a lot in this thread and not all of it was about hunt contracts ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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And his commission paid by the outfitter. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Right . . . which is several hundred bucks . . . which some people believe that the agent should take on significant risk to earn. Given the attitudes of some of the clients on this thread the limitation of liability provisions are starting to make more and more sense. Mike | |||
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Yep....I learned a lot ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Gents: I'm at a hotel in Johannesburg and shortly off for a bite to eat an catch my flight to Zim. Ted: Mark did not ask me not to discuss the contract on AR. He stated if I asked questions about it on AR he would not book me. Also, Mark did not give me the outfitter's name to book with. The outfitter contacted me and we discussed the matter and I booked with him. He will pay Mark a fee/commission for the introduction. That works best for both of us: Mark makes his fee and I don't have to sign my life away. I understand AR and many forums. I stay away from most as I don't like censorship based on one's opinion. Saeed's AR is hands down the best there is. Yes, things turn into speculation and a pissing match at times but the good of AR far outweighs the bad (IMHO). I don't think there are things learned here, about individual posters, that have not been noticed on other threads. I believe much of this could have been avoided if Mark came on here day one with his side and explanation. Not that he had any obligation to do so, but to remain silent for nearly two weeks certainly did not help the situation. While I have been faulted by a few for this thread I asked the few whom I sent the contract to for review not to mention Mark's name. Again, Mark Young has done me no ill nor has wronged me in any manner. He has many hunts I would like, I am thinking of Gary Hopkins in the future, but I will call the PH and not book with ANY agent if I have to sign away my rights. Also, booking directly with the PH or outfitter can see a possible savings of the 15% agent's fee.(That's good for me as a poor and retired school teacher as I have to sometimes make the choice between food and insulin--LOL). Anyway, I'm off to Zim and I will pick this up on my return as (I guess) it has not died yet. Cheers and thanks all. Cal PS. Interesting fact--this thread is 11 pages. The same as the contract! Perhaps there is something spiritual here. _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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And given the attitude and advice of one lawyer on this thread we should never sign a contract as written. Yup!! Learned a lot. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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"but I will call the PH and not book with ANY agent if I have to sign away my rights. Also, booking directly with the PH or outfitter can see a possible savings of the 15% agent's fee". So Cal, in the interests of good-will, I will presume you will advise ALL agents of your preferences BEFORE you engage their services, and BEFORE they provide you with the benefit of their knowledge, deals, and contacts, therefore giving THEM the opportunity to decide if they wish to do business with YOU under YOUR terms. | |||
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As have I: avoid lawyers like you would yersinia pestis. | |||
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I think one of the lessons learned on this thread is that agents and outfitters need to be every bit as careful in terms of the clients they accept, as clients are in selecting agents and outfitters. From an agent's or outfitter's perspective there are some clients that are simply not worth the potential headache, particularly for the modest fee they are going earn in many cases. It is clear that in the view of some clients the agent or outfitter is an insurer of their enjoyment, satisfaction, and in some cases success. If everything does not live up to their expectations, someone, presumably the agent or the outfitter, needs to make it right or they can expect to be excoriated. Little surprise then that the contract provisions end up being written to deal with these clients and everyone else is stuck with them. Mike | |||
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MJines you're an absolutely awful endorsement for attorneys. You just can't seem to quit digging yourself deeper. Of course there are garbage clients out there and each of us has to deal with them in our own line of work. Reminds me of a joke: Two tigers are talking and one says to the other "why are you eating that dog shit?" and the other responds "to get the taste of that lawyer I just ate outta my mouth". | |||
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Seriously, do you have anything to add to the conversation other than ad hominem attacks? Anything of substance? If it makes you feel like a big guy to bash me and lawyers, by all means be my guest, I have been insulted worse by better.  Mike | |||
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Look at it this way Norton, like what he says or not, but Jines is correct with his latest response. I can remember when leasing property in Texas for deer hunting involved a hand shake and money passing from one hand to another hand. Maybe Gato will comment on this, but now contracts to lease a pasture to hunt deer in are more complicated than leasing that same pasture to graze cattle on, or a field to grow crops on. As time has gone by, lease contracts have to be reviewed by a lawyer to keep a land owner or a lease holder from getting really screwed over. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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