quote:

One red flag raised was that if I asked AR members their opinion, the agent emailed he would not book me.

Cal,

If it were me I would tell the ponytail this contract rode in on to stick it up his ass and book with someone else. There are better options than this clown, I've dealt with the jerk. He's an asshole who is all about the money and he'll turn on you in a heartbeat. Look elsewhere.

SQ

AN OPEN BUT ANONYMOUS LETTER TO THE BOOKING AGENT:

Sir:
After 40 replies and nearly 600 views the issue of your contract to me is starting quite a firestorm. I posted here to ask opinions and did not mention your name. I was 100% factual in any and all that I wrote. I did send your contract to several friends that I know, some from AR, to get their opinion and I did this before I posted here. Also, while you emailed me that you would not book me if I went to the membership of AR, I decided to do so after I made the choice not to book with you for reasons already mentioned.

That said, I think it is time you came on here to explain and/or defend your business practices. I have not mentioned your name. However many more folks have contacted me via phone, email, and PM asking details and who you are. I can live with the anonymous posts I make and also the guessing posts others make as to whom you are, but I have two contacts by other agents wanting me to print your name as they want to let the public know it is not them I am referring to in my original post.

So, I invite you to come on here. You are well known as you solicit hunts here on AR and I'm sure you have used the same contract in previous hunts.

I (we) hope to hear from you. It was never my intention to get into a pissing match with you or to defame you in any manner. You have done me no ill will but I think you owe me and the AR membership an explanation as to why such a one sided contract is used and where the client signs away any and all rights even for gross negligence on your part and the outfitters/PHs you represent.
Cheers,
Cal

Geez!! This thread would be 12 pages long by now if it was in the African Hunting Forum.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The agent would not book me if I posted on AR as "...there are far too many there who would love to turn this into some conspiracy to defraud a member even if they have zero experience in booking hunts."
Thanks for your input. I hope the agent will come on here and set the record straight as to his contract. He has his reasons why he uses such a complicated writ but should have nothing to hide from anyone or AR members as he posts here very often. But, that is his call, not mine. I just wanted to get feedback on the situation as it is new territory to me. My African contracts are a simple one page agreement.
Again, thank you and all who replied and PM'ed.
Cal

A perfectly good reason to avoid him then.

Why would anyone turn it in a conspiracy, if he has nothing to hide??

Folks, I can't speak for any others agents - nor would I try. I can only say that we too try our best to protect ourselves, as well as the hunter and the outfitter!!

I have a 1 page ROL, and a 3 page contract - but the 3rd page is simply a "notes" pages that includes personal info on the outfitter, hunter and general info about CITES needs, etc.

I have no idea who the outfitter might be, but, I'd be more concerned with the track record of an outfitter (ie, returning deposits if warranted, fixing problems with the actual hunt provider, good communications, etc.) than I would with the length of the contract.

I've written hundreds, if not thousands of contracts, and interpreted lots of more and have found that the character of the principals is more important in any clause or excluded potentiality.

I've used four or five agent/outfitters I've found here on A.R. I've had deposits returned, credited to another year, changed dates... you name it, but more importantly, I've had wonderful experiences in Africa, Canada and the U.S.

I've never used Aaron, but wouldn't hesitate to do so with a 100 page contract (or a three pager).

I hope to hunt with Adam Clements some day.

I'll be danged if I remember the contract I signed with Mark for my daughter's grizzly adventure last year, but we had an absolutely wonderful hunt with Mark fixing several bumps in the road. I'd do it again, relying more on Mark's history/reputation than what his lawyers wanted him to get signed.

Ray Atkinson, ten years or so ago, returned a $30,000.00 deposit on a 21 day full-bag hunt in Africa even though the problem was personal and not covered under the contract. He didn't need to, but he did the right thing and I'll always be thankful.

The great thing about a contract (and the free market system) is that you don't have to sign anything you don't want to. Stay home or go with someone else with whom you feel more comfortable.

All that said, eleven pages seems to be a lot. An outfitter can get burned almost as easily by a client as a client screwed by an outfitter. Maybe your potential outfitter is/was over compensating for a previous bad experience. Who knows? A simple no to the contract makes that inquiry moot, doesn't it?

Remember that the worst possible consequence of a rejected "too long" or "too one-sided" contract is just moving on and looking for an arrangement with which you feel more comfortable.

I can live with that.

If an agents says "you have to trust me"....RUN! If they get annoyed that you ask around....RUN FARTHER!

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

I've written hundreds, if not thousands of contracts, and interpreted lots of more and have found that the character of the principals is more important in any clause or excluded potentiality.

Absolutely spot on. Excuse the digression, please proceed with heating up the tar and getting the feathers ready . . .

The contract itself would probably do me in. But you "will not" book me if I ask for opinions on AR.

That in itself should be enough for anyone.

The "Not getting opinions from AR members" is the part I feel most people on here find odd.

This looks like the hunt offered here.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...501087812#1501087812

I hate to assume things, but assuming that Mark Young is the booking agent with the 11 page, Blair imitation contract, then surely Cal Pappas is not the first person he has proffered such a contract to. Anyone else seen this?

If it is not him, then he should immediately come on this thread and says, "NOT me!!!"

I have been on far fewer paid hunts than the majority of AR readership, but I have been on enough to know that I do not know a booking agent I would book through if I could book directly.

I would never use a booking agent for any hunt in the USA or Canada.

I got screwed by Tony D'Costa in 2005, and he's the first and last one that will ever do that if I can help it.

Too many ways to book direct, so why would you book through and agent.

My experience with such a contract was in business and not hunting.

I wanted to promote my business in the US & searched for a marketing consultant who could help my small business with a couple of trade shows.

Some of the most stressful times in my working career.

Spent the money, displayed at the exhibitions. But NOT one single sale through him!

He tried to cut me out from the contacts made from my expenses and charge me a commission for the sales!

I noticed that he was signed on to AR earlier today, so he is obviously aware of conversation on the thread. As was previously mentioned, if it's not him, the opportunity was there to clarify. The silence is deafening...

Several years ago, I was working out a three-man DG safari with a well known agent on AR. Then he sent me a most ridiculous (and comical) contract (length and terms). When questioned about it, he advised that the contractual language was non-negotiable. That just didn't work for me. So the OP's story sounds pretty familiar ....

A few months later, I inked a separate deal with Aaron Neilson, using his 2.5 page contract. A year or so later, three of us booked another hunt with Aaron Neilson, still using his 2.5 page contract. Sounds like Aaron continues to use the 2.5 page contract ....

Guess which booking agent I recommend?

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
Several years ago, I was working out a three-man DG safari with a well known agent on AR. Then he sent me a most ridiculous (and comical) contract (length and terms). When questioned about it, he advised that the contractual language was non-negotiable. That just didn't work for me. So the OP's story sounds pretty familiar ....

A few months later, I inked a separate deal with Aaron Neilson, using his 2.5 page contract. A year or so later, three of us booked another hunt with Aaron Neilson, still using his 2.5 page contract. Sounds like Aaron continues to use the 2.5 page contract ....

Guess which booking agent I recommend?

If I recall our "contract with Neal & Brownlee (Greg Brownlee) for the Niassa Leopard hunts was about two pages mostly outlining the costs.

Greg fielded calls and questions and never deferred me to another source for information.

Had a different booking agent I used in the past tell me to call my taxidermist when I asked him some questions about items on the Leopard CITES application.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
Several years ago, I was working out a three-man DG safari with a well known agent on AR. Then he sent me a most ridiculous (and comical) contract (length and terms). When questioned about it, he advised that the contractual language was non-negotiable. That just didn't work for me. So the OP's story sounds pretty familiar ....

A few months later, I inked a separate deal with Aaron Neilson, using his 2.5 page contract. A year or so later, three of us booked another hunt with Aaron Neilson, still using his 2.5 page contract. Sounds like Aaron continues to use the 2.5 page contract ....

Guess which booking agent I recommend?

We have never booked with Aaron but have hunted with him. I would not hesitate to book with him if he had something I was interested in.

Jim is right. I haven't used Greg Brownlee or Aaron Nelson before, but I damn sure would. They know what they are talking about. Have been easy to ask questions to and Aaron is an outfitter as well, so he has an idea of the bullshit that can arise.

Anytime you get told to ask a taxidermist, you ought to consider if it is worth it to deal with a agent.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
you ought to consider if it is worth it to deal with a agent.

In some situations an agent is very valuable. I would never hesitate to recommend anyone hunting with Derek Littleton and Luwire in Mozambique but I would definitely recommend that booking occur with Greg Brownlee.

The reason is simple. Derek is a bush rat that rarely comes back to humanity and the ability to communicate directly is sporadic at best. If a question came up before the hunt Greg was able to get the answer for me. That is what an agent should do.

Yes, it would depend more on the agents reliability and the outfitters elusiveness.

I have heard nothing but blessed praise about Gerrit Utz, he is elusive in the bush for months. But eventually he answered me and I plan on booking with him for 2017 or 2018 once I know for certain what continent I will be living on.

For some the daily emails back and forth are necessary. That fuckwit D'Costa left me cold as soon as he had my money, told me he was retired and it wasn't his problem.

In fact here are the questions I ask about a booking agent before I book:

1. When are you going to retire?

2. How many other hunters are going to be in camp with me?

3. Are all the species I want to hunt available on license?

4. I want to use taxidermist X or Y, is that a problem?

Damn this agent is quiet. I guess he hopes it goes away.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn this agent is quiet. I guess he hopes it goes away.

It won't, but business might

Gents:
Another part of the contract I do no understand is about trip insurance. The agent states five insurances are "needed" by the client. If I decline them I am to sign to acknowledge I do not have insurance.

Now, my travel agent pushes me into buying travel insurance as he gets a cut of the cost. I have never done so on a hunting trip and only did so once for a trip to Greece. One page of glowing services and 32 pages of exclusions (which one has to argue to obtain) is why I don't buy such insurances.

But FIVE! Accidental death and disability, medical evacuation, trip cancellation, loss of personal effects, major medical seem to be overkill. Do booking agents get a cut of the cost if purchased? And, why the legal signature if I decline? Following the suggestion is a lengthy paragraph of what is my sole responsibility and the agent and PH are not liable. Is this standard practice?

Since my initial post many outfitters in the US have contacted me to hunt and I will hunt with some. 2016 is full, both for them and me, with 2017 and after locking very good as my Africa hunts will come to a close after 2-3 more trips.

Thanks for your input. I have learned a lot here. I do wish the agent would have come on here to explain himself. A short paragraph or two would have answered everyone's questions. While he didn't want me to post on AR to avoid problems, I feel most of the negative posts are due to his not replying. Before I posted here I sent the contract to several mates and one attorney for their opinions. One of them may wish to post the entire contract here. That is their choice as it is beyond my control. My entire scope of questions were what is normal and why should a client sign away all his legal rights for a simple hunt.
Cheers, all.
Cal

Cal:

Insurance is only expensive when one doesn't need it. I have all of those coverages except for trip cancellation all the time.

I know some booking agents who get a commission on trip cancellation. Most of the other coverages generally require a license from the state in question . I read these as more in the line of recommendations as opposed to offering to sell. I doubt that agent in question sells all of those coverages. I might be wrong.

It is perfectly understandable why an outfitter or agent would require a client to acknowledge their decision to not take insurance . . . it is the same reason that many agreements require a person to acknowledge that they have elected to not take an option available to them. Those sorts of acknowledgements are a direct product of clients that elected not to avail themselves of insurance, had a problem and then came back to the outfitter or agent and wanted the outfitter or agent to make it right . . . the "it" being their decision not to protect themselves . . . arguing that the outfitter or agent never told them about this or that, they did not know, it is the agent's job to inform them, and on and on. Those provisions are undoubtedly the direct result of actions of clients . . . which only makes clients complaining about the provisions more ironic. My guess is that you would have never seen such provisions had clients that ran into problems just accepted the consequences of their personal decisions and not tried to lay off the blame on an outfitter or agent.

Thanks, Larry and Mike. That clears that up.
Cal

I am not a wealthy man.

I have traveled to the US, Europe & Asian subcontinent on work & Africa on vacation. I always took insurance.

Here is what I found

* Travel agents will sell insurance & it is expensive - frightenning
* My insurance broker who does my business, home etc. came up with great cover for everything including cancellation & medivac (planned hunt cancelled) and the total cover for 20 days door to door was less than US$300!
* Then I found that my health insurer (the best in NZ - non profit cooperative) also did travel insurance which was cheaper (US$150) but not medivac.

The silence is deafening.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
The silence is deafening.

Yep, and it sure looks like we know now who the OP was talking about without actually naming names!

I think JudgeG and MJines have covered it well. Every business out there, regardless of size will try to protect themselves. The size of these contracts grow with experience and size/value of the business. Very similar to laws and regulations.

Not much more the agent can add to what has already been discussed at this point. If I don't like a contract, hunting or otherwise, I don't sign and try to discuss the terms. If not negotiable, then I move on depending on the situation, rather than waste more time on it. A 2 page contract is not necessarily better than an 11 page one if it leaves open a lot of unknowns about the transaction. I have been on many hunts without any contracts at all....some may consider that stupid....to me, the determining factor is the price of the hunt and reputation of the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by AR79:
to me, the determining factor is the reputation of the outfitter.

Boom. Nailed it.

There are rare moments where the booking agency can get in the way instead of helping. Contracts aside. Happened to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by AR79:
to me, the determining factor is the reputation of the outfitter.

Boom. Nailed it.

There are rare moments where the booking agency can get in the way instead of helping. Contracts aside. Happened to me.

Price plays a role for me also as originally mentioned. I have a threshold to my price vs. trust. Under this threshold is where I will trust people and if things go wrong, I put on my big boy pants and chock it up to experience. Beyond that threshold I want a contract that protects my funds regardless of the outfitter's reputation.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I am not a wealthy man.

I have traveled to the US, Europe & Asian subcontinent on work & Africa on vacation. I always took insurance.

Here is what I found

* Travel agents will sell insurance & it is expensive - frightenning
* My insurance broker who does my business, home etc. came up with great cover for everything including cancellation & medivac (planned hunt cancelled) and the total cover for 20 days door to door was less than US$300!
* Then I found that my health insurer (the best in NZ - non profit cooperative) also did travel insurance which was cheaper (US$150) but not medivac.

Never buy insurance on price alone. What the policy covers and perhaps more importantly what it excludes is the most important.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
The silence is deafening.

He's not silent on the offered hunts forum...

It's not the contract as much as it is the contempt for other members of the forum. We are all beneath him therefore he need not respond to this topic...

I do not know the outfitter at all, but I do deal with business contracts regularly from some of the largest corporations in the world.

Cal, the one thing to remember first is that the contract sent to you is a STARTING point. If it is not and the outfitter says it is non-negotiable, then it becomes a business decision. I am notorious for making contracts "bleed" from all the red ink I use on them. Even AT&T negotiates. If this person does not, then that tells you a LOT regardless of reputation. I NEVER recommend to anyone that they give away their rights for disputes to the courts. That is just one.

If you could not change it to make it more friendly to you, then again, it is a business decision. I would not do it under non-negotiable terms.

I have used three outfitters/guides to date. Not many by standards here, but I have yet to be offered a contract. A beer maybe, but not a contract. And I have yet to be screwed.

So to summarize . . . we have established that a one to three page contract regardless of content is appropriate and acceptable . . . on the other hand, an eleven page contract regardless of content is contemptible and scandalous. Good to know.

I will confess that I have read the contract. A lot of it, perhaps most of it, is in fact totally understandable. For example, if Delta cancels my flight, it is not the booking agents fault. If Delta loses my bags, it isn't the booking agents fault. The agent does not need that with me. I totally understand. However, everyone is not that way. All one has to do is think of some of the stupid issues that have arisen here on AR. I can see why they want that.

However, there are other provisions that are so absurd and ridiculous that they defy description. The contract in fact wants the client to sign away all of their rights under just about every conceivable circumstance.

One in particular bothered me. If one was a single day late with a scheduled payment, the entire prior deposit was forfeited. This just pissed me off for many reasons. First, in what I do for a living, I do the work, then send a bill. If I am lucky, I have the money in 60 days AFTER I have done the work. This contract requires full payment well before the client even gets on the plane. OK, I get that to a certain extent. I pay my bills timely, I have an 833 credit score. I have left Africa and other countries owning well in excess of $50,000. I paid immediately when I got home, sometimes even before I got the bill. I have never stiffed anyone for any amount of money. Having said that, I am so damn busy and these payments are not regularly scheduled payments, it is not uncommon for me to pay these in something LESS than 90 days before I leave. I could lose all of my money under the contract in question.

Finally, one of the law firms we use has a friend of mine who is a partner & a hunter. This is a BIG firm. I sent the contract over to him for his comments. His first comment was ,"please tell me you didn't sign this." After I advised that I had not. He said good and started laughing like hell. His next comment was something to the effect that only an idiot would sign the contract in question.

I want to reiterate that most of the contract, while lengthy, sets out what should be obvious to most reasonably intelligent, normal people. Unfortunately, all potential clients are not that way.

Mike:
I know from this and your past post here you have contempt for this thread and I hope I have not angered you any. Nothing has been summarized here about contracts and their content and length. Folks offered their opinion, that's all. I posted as I was concerned about the length and content of the contract offered to me for a short, simple, and inexpensive hunting trip. I have never seen a contract like this and hope never to see one again as it shows a complete 100% one-sided approach to the agreement. The agent, who is still offering hunts on AR, won't come on to offer an explanation or to join in the discussion. I think this has angered some here more than the contracts issue itself.

So, in closing, based on the short part of the contract I posted initially, would you sign any contract with the provisions I posted here? You are an educated man and I would be surprised if you would.

Cheers, mate.
Cal