quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

Of course I feel my opinion is valid and has merit. However, I could care less if anyone else does, and I understand that what is right for me, may not be right for someone else.

I differ with you here as I do care and want my choice to be accepted mainstream.

Please answer the next question.

Lane,
I have moral, ethical and even business (monetary and fiscal) opinions of how to run this country, would I ever be so bold to state that I am prepared or have the skills to be the President of the United States, no. Nor is it a job I want. I understand your direction with these questions and applaude your conviction and confidence in your own opinions. What we have here (in my estimation), is 2 amateurs arguing over what is right or best for the wild lion, I doubt that we will ever agree, just as I doubt that we will ever concede that our amateur opinions are wrong. In that respect, your comparison has been fairly close, in that this has become much like a political arguement, put us face to face and throw in half a dozen shots of Bushmills and this would really get interesting. With that said, I wish you the best and hope you continue to enjoy this wonderful sport as much as I do.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

With that said, I wish you the best and hope you continue to enjoy this wonderful sport as much as I do.

Same to you Brad!

I was born a hunter and will die one. Can't wait to hunt with my son!

505 Gibbs,

quote:

I hope I answered your question.

You did, thank you.

Now i have a little more time i have some other questions based on your earlier post.

quote:

spe·cies·ism   /ˈspiʃiˌzɪzəm, -siˌzɪz-/ Show Spelled[spee-shee-ziz-uhm, -see-ziz-] Show IPA
noun
discrimination in favor of one species.
Related forms
spe·cies·ist, adjective, noun

Who exactly are you saying fits this definition?

quote:

It is not about "acceptable" for me, as it is not my place to assume the management of other peoples property or second guessing their decisions when I was not involved. I personally try to kill mature animals and as I have stated previously, feel it is the place of property owners / parks departments to set the appropriately conservative quotas so that if mistakes are made, it does not endanger the population.

In other words you feel that all responsibility for your eventual actions should be removed from you and placed on everyone elses shoulders.
Yes i agree that the property owners and park authorities should set the legal quotas based on population count in those 'properties'. However as i understand it those population counts are not independent, they are carried out by the 'properties'. The figures are then passed to the relevant authorities and quotas are set. Now isn't it your responsibility to ensure you hunt in a place that you can be (within reason) sure has been honest with the relevant authorities. I have browsed the 'hunts for sale' platform here and in virtually every one someone has asked what people know of the outfit and if they would reccomend them. To me that is behaving responsibly and taking responsibility for ones own actions.

quote:

why would I kill an animal I did not want to kill, or was "unacceptable" to me? If the animal is not what I came for, I don't pull the trigger.

You have just stated in the quote above that its not about what is acceptable for you! You claim the responsibilty of what is acceptable is entirely down to others and you let them decide. So basically you take other peoples word that the animal you are about to kill is acceptable and take no responsibility for the outcome yourself.

quote:

Absolutely, just like I care about the conservation of all species so that my children and grandchildren can enjoy the sport I love so much. I have news for you and some of our resident "experts", yours is not the only method of conservation, it is still yet to be seen who is right.

Its no new news to me. After all didnt i come here to learn about others views on the conservation of the lion?

When it comes to responsilibity in anything we are all responsible for our OWN actions. We have a responsibility as decent human beings to gain as much knowledge as we can about the consequences of our actions and to think carefully before we follow them through.

If you came for a drink in my public house and you were intoxicated it is my responsibility to refuse to serve you any more alcohol. If i serve you a drink and you get into trouble or have an accident as the last point of origin i can be prosecuted and even sued for damages.

Now as far as responsibility goes you have a responsibility to not get yourself into that state, just as hunting outfitters shouldnt run unethically. But i also have a responsibility to say 'im not serving you anymore beer as you are intoxicated' just as you have a responsibility to say 'im not shooting that animal as it appears to be (insert reason).

And guess what in order to do these things i have to recognise the signs of intoxication and not just leave it to the drinker to decide, i have to learn the signs of intoxication.
Just as you have to recognise the signs that the hunt is not quite right and not just leave it to an outfitter to decide, and to do that you need to learn and research the signs something is wrong.

We are ALL responsible for OUR OWN actions.
Stop passing the buck (pardon the pun)

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

How exactly do you think the lion should be conserved?

I think populations should be closely monitored, quotas should be set on the conservative side of caution, tags issued accordingly, and enforcement of logical existing game laws doled out void of favor. I believe management decisions should be made at the local level, as what is appropriate for one area may not be appropriate for another. This method has been proven in many areas across Africa, there has always been and always will be corruption, that does not mean that we should abandon what has worked in return for draconian laws that cannot be accurately prosecuted. On private concessions, the free market will take care of those who drive species to extinction on their own land. On government concessions, the concerned governments should take concessions away from operators who have driven any species out of there public concessions and give them to operators proven to improve concessions and proven to turn concessions into long term profit centers for themselves, the locals and the government, as the only way to do this is true conservation. I will also say that the only hope for the lion being conserved in the wild is for it to have a value. I have yet to see a better business model for giving it that value than the hunting model. However, in order for that model to work, people have to want to hunt lions, and they need to be able to do it with some hope of succeeding in taking a lion. This is where me and some on this forum part company, as I feel their condescending, heavy handed treatment of fellow hunters discourage desire, and their support of draconian laws where guilt could never be proven, yet would be prosecuted on people like their expert opinion, is sure to condemn lion hunting and consequently the lion. That is a start, and it is simply my opinion, there are others far more versed and far more invested in these issues than I, perhaps you could find some on Saeeds other forums and PM them for some REAL information, as I doubt they wouldn't be caught dead posting on this forum. I hope I answered your question.

saved for posterity

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
....My lion was aged between 7 and 9 years by the conservancy....

Would you care to post more photos of your lion trophy and submit the premolar for x-raying?

I am not doubting your PHs experience with lion hunting it is just that from my experience, 7-9 year old lion trophy pictures and x-rays are quite rare to come by and would be very interesting for any one to view.

thx

quote:

quote:
It is not about "acceptable" for me, as it is not my place to assume the management of other peoples property or second guessing their decisions when I was not involved. I personally try to kill mature animals and as I have stated previously, feel it is the place of property owners / parks departments to set the appropriately conservative quotas so that if mistakes are made, it does not endanger the population.



In other words you feel that all responsibility for your eventual actions should be removed from you and placed on everyone elses shoulders.
Yes i agree that the property owners and park authorities should set the legal quotas based on population count in those 'properties'. However as i understand it those population counts are not independent, they are carried out by the 'properties'. The figures are then passed to the relevant authorities and quotas are set. Now isn't it your responsibility to ensure you hunt in a place that you can be (within reason) sure has been honest with the relevant authorities. I have browsed the 'hunts for sale' platform here and in virtually every one someone has asked what people know of the outfit and if they would reccomend them. To me that is behaving responsibly and taking responsibility for ones own actions.


quote:
why would I kill an animal I did not want to kill, or was "unacceptable" to me? If the animal is not what I came for, I don't pull the trigger.



You have just stated in the quote above that its not about what is acceptable for you! You claim the responsibilty of what is acceptable is entirely down to others and you let them decide. So basically you take other peoples word that the animal you are about to kill is acceptable and take no responsibility for the outcome yourself.

Jo,
The above statements are twisted and dishonest, they are not accurate descriptions or interpretations of what I was saying, and I feel quite certain that you know that. If you would like to get back on track and have an honest conversation, I am game. Otherwise, do not waste your time or Saeed's bandwidth.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
....My lion was aged between 7 and 9 years by the conservancy....


Would you care to post more photos of your lion trophy and submit the premolar for x-raying?

I am not doubting your PHs experience with lion hunting it is just that from my experience, 7-9 year old lion trophy pictures and x-rays are quite rare to come by and would be very interesting for any one to view.

thx

Mich,
I posted a complete hunting report with multiple pictures in the African Hunting Reports Forum, you are welcome to look it up there if you would like to examine the pictures further. As far as submitting a tooth for premolar or x-raying, I truly am not that concerned, nor would I involve myself in a "fact finding mission" with someone as admittedly dishonest as you if I was. As far as "who" aged my lion, it was not my PH, rather it was the Conservator. Was he right? I would not have a clue, nor do I care, I am confident and satisfied with the outcome of my safari and regret nothing.

If you had Ben remove it and Fed Ex it or even bring it yourself to my hospital...I would be happy to x-ray if for you.

It would not be fact finding...it would be learning.

This is just an offer...no need for us to argue anymore.

Thank You for the offer Lane.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Thank You for the offer Lane.

Brad,
You are welcome anytime.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
....with someone as admittedly dishonest as you if I was.

care to explain?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Mich,
I posted a complete hunting report with multiple pictures in the African Hunting Reports Forum, you are welcome to look it up there if you would like to examine the pictures further. As far as submitting a tooth for premolar or x-raying, I truly am not that concerned, nor would I involve myself in a "fact finding mission" with someone as admittedly dishonest as you if I was. As far as "who" aged my lion, it was not my PH, rather it was the Conservator. Was he right? I would not have a clue, nor do I care, I am confident and satisfied with the outcome of my safari and regret nothing.

For someone who regrets nothing and does not care, you sure do seem to have all the answers don't you?

505 gibbs,

quote:

Jo,
The above statements are twisted and dishonest, they are not accurate descriptions or interpretations of what I was saying, and I feel quite certain that you know that. If you would like to get back on track and have an honest conversation, I am game. Otherwise, do not waste your time or Saeed's bandwidth

You're having a giraffe aren't you?
Let's get right to the point. Show me once where you have taken personal responsibility or admitted any on the conversation of who is responsible for a 'bad' kill?
Twisted your words, no!! I have only highlighted your belief that all responsibility lies with the PH, outfitter and park governments.

Dishonest? Where? I don't lie.

Lets just look at an example :-

quote:

Last night, 1 female came to water, male and 1 female came to bait. It was completely dark, light was not an option as the male would not stand fo it. I could see his mane (outline) in the moonlight and he looked to be 40% larger than the female. i shot him with no idea how old he was, what color his body was, how big his mane was, what color his nose was, if he had spots or black patches on his legs. It was a tremendous experience and I wouldn't do anything different if I had the opportunity to do it again.

Followed by:-

quote:

The little bit of education I recieved was from a licensed professional hunter with more lion kills under his belt than you have seen alive, we made the call together and it was the right call.

IF the lion in this case had turned out to be a lot, lot younger whose fault would you have said it was?

And on a slightly different note how could you possibly make a call together when you have already stated you had no idea how old the lion was?

And with respect coming from a man who wasted bandwidth with an attention seeking thread about being an idiot, please take a look at yourself first.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
....with someone as admittedly dishonest as you if I was.


care to explain?

Michael,
Do you not work for in some capacity or own in some portion Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris (TGTS)? I had heard from many before that your organization booked more lion hunts than it had tags, I always wrote that off as "sour grapes", until you posted the below on this forum. I actually could not believe what I was reading, so I and 2 others asked you multiple times to say who you were and if you were condoning such practices, you never replied. Perhaps you would like to clarify now, here are 2 questions.

1) Has TGTS ever sold or booked more lion hunts than it had tags/quota?

2) Has TGTS ever allowed a client to come hunting for a "lion" it no longer had tags/quota to hunt as you state below in your post?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich
So if you have a quota of 1 lion (which would probably be what is required!) and you shoot it on the 1st hunt and the next 3 hunters along do see a >6 lion on their trip but are not allowed to shoot it because your quota is done, is that desirable?