quote:

Holy shit!!


quote:
I comprehend that when this lion was shot the hunter probably thought it was older,

who that was present has stated the above?

didn't know it had young cubs,

who that was present has stated the above?

didn't know it was the last male there

WHo has determined that the above is true?



Noone that i know off.
And your point is?

thank you for the confirmation, it seemed your statements were being presented as facts, I now know the were speculation.

quote:
if that is all true).

Are you stating "if it is true that the hunters didn't know these things? Or are you stating "if your above stated assumptions about the lion are true?



I am stating if the reports are true.
Your point?

my point was the need for clarification as to what you were statind was "true", your above answers clarified that as well.

quote:
Do i think the hunter and PH should be punished in some way for this event?

for what? genuine or intentional??



Can you clarify your question here.

I was asking what you were stating the hunter and ph could be punished for, the "genuine or intentional" was referring to whether they were completely informed of the situation or did something out of ignorance. My reason was that I see nothing wrong here, so there would be no reason to look at punishment or even question the intentions of those involved.

quote:
No providing they were all genuine mistakes.

Please name 1 mistake that was made.



I'll name several that were made in my opinion.
1. IF it was the last male lion in the area it shouldn't have been killed.
I do not believe that Parks would have issued a lion permit in an area containing 1 male, If they did, it is a failure of management not of the ph or hunter.
2. IF it had recently had cubs it shouldn't have been shot.
there is no way to tell that of a male lion that is on a "walk about" or does not have it's cubs with it. That does not make taking the lion a "mistake", this is reality, he could have just as easily been killed by another lion, caught in a poachers snare, etc., etc., etc., this is life in the bush, these animals live in a harsh environment. The only way anyone is going to stop it is to put all of the animals in cages.
3. IF it was 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 it shouldn't have been shot.
If it was a 5 yr old lion (and their is no way to tell 6mos. in either direction), in my book, it was a great trophy to take (not that that matters to anyone). As I stated earlier, tags should be issued in a conservative manner where it does not harm the population if less than ideal specimens of the correct sex are taken (IMHO).
4. IF it was lured and baited out of safety it shouldn't have been shot.
Every lion that is baited and taken is "lured and baited out of safety", are you stating that the life of a smart lion is more valuable than that of a foolish one? Or are you staing that foolish lions should be protected because they are not instinctual or smart enough to preotect themselves? How would anyone ever make that distinction, unless the rules were set that any lion stupid enough to come to a bait could not be shot, do you know what that would do to lion hun....wait a minute, I see where this is going.

All the above of course is only my opinion based on the info available. Laws of probability though would point that at least one of those 4 points is true.

No doubt you are entitled to your opinion, below yours is mine.


quote:
What may have appeared to be an ethical kill turned out not to be an ethical kill, no judgement on the hunter etc.

Please inform me 1 fact about this kill that was "unethical". Who besides you (from what I can tell) and the rediculous specist on the facebook page are "judging" anyone?



All of it for me if the above four points are true.


Now i am only going to go through this once more because honestly if you'd read my previous points on here then you'd already have this info.

I make no judgement of the hunter or PH, i dont know what they thought when they made this kill.

but you are judging this situation, and what does it matter what they "thought"? The result is the same, the lion is dead. Are you stating that the killing of this lion was ok as long as the hunters intentions were good?

I make no judgement on the hunter or the PH after hearing reports of possibly why this lion should not be killed. I do not know what info they had or didn't have. I also do not know whether they had this info and disregarded it.

this is the same junk we see over and over on this forum, the reasons "why this lion should not be killed", newsflash THE LION IS DEAD!! The PH and the hunter succeeded, and that is a great thing for the hunter, a great thing for the PH, a great thing for Zimbabwe, a great thing for the local community, a great thing for the lions, it is truly SUCCESS!!!

I do believe that this kill turned out to be an unethical kill though. Just my opinion but we all have those.
I don't think there is one person in this thread who is in possession of all the FACTS so therefore this whole thread is just opinion. Go figure!!

As for 'ridiculous specist' whatever that may be that attitude is exactly what the lion does not need. It needs everyone to pull together and converse like adults hopefully leading to better understanding of both sides and a solution.

please forgive my spelling errors, "speciesist" is what I was going for. Just because you and I do not agree does not mean that I am not conversing like an adult, I would say that it is antagonistic statements like those that hinder communication.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

I have never been able to afford a lion hunt for myself. That is no secret. I would like to hunt lion...but realistically in today's world with today's Africa, unless the LCTF can turn it around, lion hunting probably won't exist when I can afford it. I am 46 years old and have a 2 year old son. I would like to think that in 16 years that we could go lion hunting together...but partly due to hard-headed people like yourself Brad that refuse to see the forest for the trees...we probably won't be able to.

Your rush to point the finger at others from your self appointed position is far more detrimental to your cause than my mere disagreements with your misrepresentations. You know absolutely nothing about me outside of this forum, yet you relish shaking your finger in my face (and others). Rather than just making slanderous accusations, please inform me (and others) the specifics of what I have done to bring about the end of lion hunting?

You probably think because you have killed a lion that you know more than I. Well if you have not figured it out already...I don't see it your way. I have spent countless hours involved in learning about the lion in all aspects...not just hunting.

I would never be so presumptuous as to say I know much about lion hunting, that would be the equivelent of me going into a room full of avid whitetail hunters after killing my first buck and start running my mouth telling everyone what to do and how to do it. Which, would be very similar to you coming on here and labeling yourself the expert while second guessing professionals or even those who had experienced it at least once. THere is another group that does something very similar, you can read a bunch of their posts on the facebook page posted at the beginning of this thread.

I have spent a fair amount of time looking at lion in Africa and I have a best friend who is one of the more experienced PH's in Africa...Nigel Theisen. The amount of time I have spent talking to the scientific experts about lions and studying their biology and ecology rivals all. The very reason this section of AR exists is because I asked for it.

I think that is great, no doubt Nigel is an expert, why don't you get him on here during the off season so that we can have some truly experienced professionals giving us their opinions and version of the facts.

Outside of African lion...I would match my years hunting, and number of animals taken against most. I will also match my diversty in education against most.

This is also great, perhaps you could get Saeed to start the "Outside of Africa Lion Hunting Conservation Forum", or the "Veterinarian Race Horse Medicine" Forum, no doubt you would be better suited at moderating those.

And...I can also say without hesitation...that had I spent $70K on a lion hunt...I would not have shot it in the dark with out knowing better what he was than you did. Not because I couldn't but because I could! Pulling the trigger is the EASIEST part of hunting. The killing is almost anti-climatic. The "proper hunt"'is what it is about for me and doing what is right on this Earth that God gave us to use as our hunting grounds.

You can say whatever you want "without hesitation", that does not make it fact or anything more substantial than your typical internet forum chest beating bravado. You cannot say factually what you would do, until you have committed the money, put in the time, sat in the blind and actually had the opportunity to make the decision. To date, you have not, yet you want others to take you seriously when you shake your finger in their face telling them what they did was wrong, or even advising them what they should do once they are in the position that you have never been in yourself? That is truly rediculous. As for "pulling the trigger is the easiest part of hunting", perhaps for you, but you have no right to assume that everyone hunts the same way you do. I have news for you, I agree with the fact that the "kill" is "anti-climatic" (for me), but the moments leading up to the time when the gunshot and recoil break my complete concentration on a hundred different issues, i.e. am I on the right animal, have I chosen the right animal, is this the animal I came here to kill, is the animal in the right position, when I pull this trigger am I going to hit this animal in the vitals, what are the repurcussions on me and others if I do not kill this animal with this shot, etc, etc, all of this while going through the checklist my father engrained in me as a child of how to properly shoot, breathing squeezing, etc.etc. makes pulling the trigger one of the most stressful, responsibility laden, stomach churning times of the hunt. And as far as being a good steward of what our good Lord gave us, I agree. With that said, I think it is time that those who are brave enough to post their pics on here should be recognized, they stick their necks out knowing that inexperienced idiots like you are probably going to try to tear them down and second guess the decisions they have made. They do it regardless of the fact that they and their ph's are going to get armchair quarterbacked by a bunch of people with not even a fraction of the experience, if any at all. They do it knowing that people are going to make fun of them for things as rediculous as how they look. They do it knowing that others just as small on here are going to side against them. They do it knowing that they are going to be judged in front of others that they respect and respect them. That takes balls and courage, and I hope they know that they and their reports are the life blood of this forum (for me). If there were no hunting reports on here, I would not be here, It is how I get through my day, living vicariously through others who are getting to do what I wish I was doing, WELL DONE GUYS AND GALS, please don't stop.

So Brad...go ahead and make whatever point it is that you are headed towards. I will still feel exactly the same way and be the same person afterwards...a hunter and a steward of the animals I hunt!!!

what animals do you hunt? I think I saw a buffalo once, why don't you post some pics of some of the other animals you have hunted, make sure you include a couple of the mistakes (or have you never made one of those?), my prayer is that those on here will congratulate you on your efforts rather than tear you down the way you and others have done them.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

I was asking what you were stating the hunter and ph could be punished for, the "genuine or intentional" was referring to whether they were completely informed of the situation or did something out of ignorance. My reason was that I see nothing wrong here, so there would be no reason to look at punishment or even question the intentions of those involved.

quote:

1. IF it was the last male lion in the area it shouldn't have been killed.
I do not believe that Parks would have issued a lion permit in an area containing 1 male, If they did, it is a failure of management not of the ph or hunter.

2. IF it had recently had cubs it shouldn't have been shot.
there is no way to tell that of a male lion that is on a "walk about" or does not have it's cubs with it. That does not make taking the lion a "mistake", this is reality, he could have just as easily been killed by another lion, caught in a poachers snare, etc., etc., etc., this is life in the bush, these animals live in a harsh environment. The only way anyone is going to stop it is to put all of the animals in cages.

3. IF it was 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 it shouldn't have been shot.
If it was a 5 yr old lion (and their is no way to tell 6mos. in either direction), in my book, it was a great trophy to take (not that that matters to anyone). As I stated earlier, tags should be issued in a conservative manner where it does not harm the population if less than ideal specimens of the correct sex are taken (IMHO).

4. IF it was lured and baited out of safety it shouldn't have been shot.
Every lion that is baited and taken is "lured and baited out of safety", are you stating that the life of a smart lion is more valuable than that of a foolish one? Or are you staing that foolish lions should be protected because they are not instinctual or smart enough to preotect themselves? How would anyone ever make that distinction, unless the rules were set that any lion stupid enough to come to a bait could not be shot, do you know what that would do to lion hun....wait a minute, I see where this is going.

quote:

but you are judging this situation, and what does it matter what they "thought"? The result is the same, the lion is dead. Are you stating that the killing of this lion was ok as long as the hunters intentions were good?

quote:

this is the same junk we see over and over on this forum, the reasons "why this lion should not be killed", newsflash THE LION IS DEAD!! The PH and the hunter succeeded, and that is a great thing for the hunter, a great thing for the PH, a great thing for Zimbabwe, a great thing for the local community, a great thing for the lions, it is truly SUCCESS!!!

quote:

please forgive my spelling errors, "speciesist" is what I was going for. Just because you and I do not agree does not mean that I am not conversing like an adult, I would say that it is antagonistic statements like those that hinder communication

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
please inform me (and others) the specifics of what I have done to bring about the end of lion hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I hunted Lion with Glenn Stockil of Shangaan hunters in the Save Conservancy May of 2010.

Lion was shot on 15 night of 16 day hunt. We spent 6-7 12-14 hr night in a blind.

Last night, 1 female came to water, male and 1 female came to bait. It was completely dark, light was not an option as the male would not stand fo it. I could see his mane (outline) in the moonlight and he looked to be 40% larger than the female. i shot him with no idea how old he was, what color his body was, how big his mane was, what color his nose was, if he had spots or black patches on his legs. It was a tremendous experience and I wouldn't do anything different if I had the opportunity to do it again.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
please inform me (and others) the specifics of what I have done to bring about the end of lion hunting?


You are part of the problem Brad and the truly sad part is that I am afraid you can not be educated. Your below post is why I feel the way I do.


quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I hunted Lion with Glenn Stockil of Shangaan hunters in the Save Conservancy May of 2010.

Lion was shot on 15 night of 16 day hunt. We spent 6-7 12-14 hr night in a blind.

Last night, 1 female came to water, male and 1 female came to bait. It was completely dark, light was not an option as the male would not stand fo it. I could see his mane (outline) in the moonlight and he looked to be 40% larger than the female. i shot him with no idea how old he was, what color his body was, how big his mane was, what color his nose was, if he had spots or black patches on his legs. It was a tremendous experience and I wouldn't do anything different if I had the opportunity to do it again.


If the last sentence weren't there...I would not have given up on you and would not think that "505 Gibbs is and idiot".

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

Please share your knowledge of the 'speciesist' and tell us all why he is so ridiculous? Could it be because he disagrees with you?

spe·cies·ism   /ˈspiʃiˌzɪzəm, -siˌzɪz-/ Show Spelled[spee-shee-ziz-uhm, -see-ziz-] Show IPA
noun
discrimination in favor of one species.
Related forms
spe·cies·ist, adjective, noun


I am curious now about what age you think is acceptable for a lion to be killed?

It is not about "acceptable" for me, as it is not my place to assume the management of other peoples property or second guessing their decisions when I was not involved. I personally try to kill mature animals and as I have stated previously, feel it is the place of property owners / parks departments to set the appropriately conservative quotas so that if mistakes are made, it does not endanger the population.

I am curious what you do to try and ensure you do not kill and unnaceptable animal?

why would I kill an animal I did not want to kill, or was "unacceptable" to me? If the animal is not what I came for, I don't pull the trigger.

I am curious if you care about the conservation of the lion?

Absolutely, just like I care about the conservation of all species so that my children and grandchildren can enjoy the sport I love so much. I have news for you and some of our resident "experts", yours is not the only method of conservation, it is still yet to be seen who is right.

I don't mean to be rude about the last question but i haven't seen you posting anything that would suggest you care, just defence of anything done.

Then you obviously have not been reading what I have been writing. I will say that I find it curious and telling that the first anti-hunter that I have seen post on this forum sounds remarkably like some of our resident "experts", I will say you and Lane are 2 peas in a pod, enjoy.

quote:

Brad,

Are you not going to answer my question above?

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Brad,

Are you not going to answer my question above?

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

I didn't see it as I was answering Jo's post and then had to feed my 1yr old. Of course I have an opinion, If you would like to know it, you can ask me over in the political forum.

quote:

How exactly do you think the lion should be conserved?

quote:

It is not important for this discussion who it is but rather do you feel strongly that your opinion is valid and has merit???

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS