You guys Ms Jo is referring to an age estimate provided (if you trust the FB poster) by a Dr. Whitman. She helped Packer with his aging lions guide book.

Someone should email her to confirm the estimate.

The nose is very hard to judge as under six but the mohawk says younger.

The pictures of a "alive" lion known as "The last lion of Bumi" provided by the photo outfitter's in this thread is indicative of a 4.5 yo lion IMHO. It apparently also held a pride with cubs. If this fact was known to the hunters, I cannot tell but it is common practice and an "unwritten law" that male's that are associated with a pride with cubs or dependant young should NOT be hunted. Of course, it is never easy to be 100% sure about this but all caution should be taken to verify this prior to completing the hunt for any particular male. Once again, the bait method of hunting is the method of choice for this very reason.

By the laws of probability at least one of the claims made regarding this hunt will probably be true and at least one will be false.
In my humble opinion it all really boils down to was this a legal kill and was it ethical?

Claim One - the lion in bumi was hunted and shot.
Claim Two - the lion was the last male in the area.
Claim three - - the lion was between 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 years old.
Claim four - the lion was lured and bated from the park.
Claim five - the lion had recently sired 4 cubs by 2 lioness's meaning he was of a fairly fertile age.
Claim six - if the lion was not the last in Bumi, killing him leaves his pride open to a new male take over and the killing of his cubs. This results in the death of 5 lions rather than just the original one.

Now if you can answer that this kill was not only legal but also ethical regarding every claim then so be it.
But can you?

quote:

I cannot tell but it is common practice and an "unwritten law" that male's that are associated with a pride with cubs or dependant young should NOT be hunted. Of course, it is never easy to be 100% sure about this but all caution should be taken to verify this prior to completing the hunt for any particular male. Once again, the bait method of hunting is the method of choice for this very reason.

Would his cubs have followed him across the river? If not, how would the huters have known if he had a pride? All of that said, I reckon it is fortunate that he was "The Last Lion of Bumi", that way no one has to worry about infanticide.

quote:

Now if you can answer that this kill was not only legal but also ethical regarding every claim then so be it.
But can you?

Jo, I would propose (from previous posts) that many on this forum would side with you, the Anti-Hunter, and say that this whole ordeal was unethical. They would side with you and rabid anti's in the prosecution of this PH and hunter (if the laws existed to support such prosecution, as they do in Tanzania). To each his own I guess, but it seems rather treacherous and cannibalistic to this observer.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You guys Ms Jo is referring to an age estimate provided (if you trust the FB poster) by a Dr. Whitman. She helped Packer with his aging lions guide book.

Someone should email her to confirm the estimate.

The nose is very hard to judge as under six but the mohawk says younger.

All,

Just to clear things up and stay with the facts...I was the 3rd party that provided Dr. Karyl Whitmann (now Gellatt) with the trophy photo's (WITH permission from the outfitter and person who sent them to me) to do a scientific facial comparison with the Bumi lion and to render an opinion on age along with several other age experts...some of which are hunters.

Dr. Whitmann's opinion was that the 2 lion pictures (trophy and live lion in Bumi) were of the same animal. She along with others estimated the lion's age when taken to be within the range of 4 1/2 to 5 1/2.

These are facts that did happen.

505 gibbs,

At first reading of the original story i was horrified. After reading here i do believe the kill was unethical but can also see that hunting is not an exact science. Mistakes are made, we are all human, all err.
Do i believe the PH and hunter should be prosecuted. Well that depends on whether they acted unethically with intent or it was a genuine mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
505 gibbs,

At first reading of the original story i was horrified. After reading here i do believe the kill was unethical but can also see that hunting is not an exact science. Mistakes are made, we are all human, all err.
Do i believe the PH and hunter should be prosecuted. Do i believe the PH and hunter should be prosecuted. Well that depends on whether they acted unethically with intent or it was a genuine mistake.

NO LAWS were broken...NOTHING to prosecute.

Oh well that makes everything ok then!
Sorry but this kill wasn't ethical, bad ethics prosecutable? No of course not but just as bad as breaking the law.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jolouburn:
505 gibbs,

At first reading of the original story i was horrified. After reading here i do believe the kill was unethical but can also see that hunting is not an exact science. Mistakes are made, we are all human, all err.
Do i believe the PH and hunter should be prosecuted. Do i believe the PH and hunter should be prosecuted. Well that depends on whether they acted unethically with intent or it was a genuine mistake.


NO LAWS were broken...NOTHING to prosecute.

You are correct Lane, but once again, you miss the point. See the original COMPLETE quote below. If these conversations are going to be productive, all participants will need to be able to see past the cause and effect of the death of 1 lion.

quote:

They would side with you and rabid anti's in the prosecution of this PH and hunter (if the laws existed to support such prosecution, as they do in Tanzania).

Jo, as for your and others inferences in this post and others that Governments will consider the perpetrators intent and state of mind in their decisions on whether to prosecute or not is simply preposterous.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

You are correct Lane, but once again, you miss the point. See the original COMPLETE quote below. If these conversations are going to be productive, all participants will need to be able to see past the cause and effect of the death of 1 lion.[QUOTE]

Brad,
What, where, and which point did I miss???

All I have said was all was legal.

quote:

Brad,
What, where, and which point did I miss???

All I have said was all was legal.

Too which I stated "You are correct", but is the direction and point of this forum not to conserve the Lion? Have you and the LCTF (who started this forum) not repeated the mantra that the way to do this is through the taking of only 6+ yr old trophies? Have you and the LCTF not repeatedly stated that this rule should be enforced even by governments if neccessary (both foreign and domestic), if participants are not willing to do it voluntarily? Should the taking of this lion, if it is in fact underage as you and others have stated, not be protected by the same conservation efforts you and others are promoting in other countries? Honestly, if you look at this forum (which I understand is a tiny microcosm of reality), A large portion of the lions posted this year have come from Zim, and despite your organizations tasteful decision to not run those hunters into the ground, would probably fall under your organizations stated goal of all lion trophies being 6+ years, would you agree? If so, would it not stand to reason then that Zimbabwe PH's and hunters are obviously not going to police themselves, therefore they should exist and operate under threat of force from theirs and other governments?

Brad,

I have repeatedly said 5 should be the absolute cut-off and we should strive to shoot >than 6's actually.

Yes, as much as I am ashamed of the fact...most of the lions I have seen on this forum this year woulld not meet those guidelines.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Claim five - the lion had recently sired 4 cubs by 2 lioness's meaning he was of a fairly fertile age.

All male lion of age 6 are still very fertile and active breeders. The 6 yo limit does not mean that lions of that age stop breeding and therefore can be hunted. The 6 year old limit was set on the basis that on average, a lion that age has bred, sired and has been able to raise at least 1 or 2 litters of cubs past dependant stage and thus its removal(so long as no other dependants are in the pride at the time) does NOT impact negatively on the population it was removed from.

Never the less the fact remains that by laws of probability at least one of those claims was true. Therefore the kill was unethical, pick the bones but it doesn't change the outcome!