quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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As to my quote above from another thread under a different topic and discussion, you have taken it totally out of context. Only you could come to the conclusion you did. Honestly I have no desire to explain it further Brad as you will no doubt retain what meaning you wish to derive from it.

Michael,
I have no bone to pick with you or your organization, the quote is exactly what you said, and I am not the only one who was surprised, nor was I the only one to ask you to clarify your statement multiple times. In my mind the request for clarification was an opportunity for you and your organization, I am not sure why you would see it or present it as something else. I will repeat the questions, if the answer is "no", what else could be said? Please feel free to reply here or via PM if there is something I am missing.

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1) Has TGTS ever sold or booked more lion hunts than it had tags/quota?

2) Has TGTS ever allowed a client to come hunting for a "lion" it no longer had tags/quota to hunt as you state below in your post?

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
However, perhaps he mispoke, perhaps I took it wrong, that is why I and others asked for clarification, why would he not take advantage of that opportunity?

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I think Jo is asking some hard questions and doing a reasonable job of pointing out the weakness in some of our answers. That isn't a threat but rather a challenge to improve our story.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I think Jo is asking some hard questions and doing a reasonable job of pointing out the weakness in some of our answers. That isn't a threat but rather a challenge to improve our story.

Obviously on this board you have people that believe hunting will support the conservation of lions but some argument about specifics.

Essentially this boils down to those that subscribe to an age based method and those that subscribe to a quota system.

Both sides have good arguments and both sides have significant weaknesses.

And we have to make this work "on the ground" in various African countries. That alone will make any system difficult.

What all parties need to recognize; anti-hunters, hunters, hunters supporting age criteria, hunters supporting quota, is that there is no perfect system. There is no solution that won't have examples of excess that others can wave around in some righteous way. But if we don't start thinking in terms of what is best for lions then they will likely fail as a wild species. And there won't be any more hunting of them.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I think Jo is asking some hard questions and doing a reasonable job of pointing out the weakness in some of our answers. That isn't a threat but rather a challenge to improve our story.

Obviously on this board you have people that believe hunting will support the conservation of lions but some argument about specifics.

Essentially this boils down to those that subscribe to an age based method and those that subscribe to a quota system.

Both sides have good arguments and both sides have significant weaknesses.

And we have to make this work "on the ground" in various African countries. That alone will make any system difficult.

What all parties need to recognize; anti-hunters, hunters, hunters supporting age criteria, hunters supporting quota, is that there is no perfect system. There is no solution that won't have examples of excess that others can wave around in some righteous way. But if we don't start thinking in terms of what is best for lions then they will likely fail as a wild species. And there won't be any more hunting of them.

Well said John, but let us introduce some facts and some examples from Zambia. I am not a researcher nor I am qualified in wildlife management. Some thirty years local experience in the field maybe.

Lion conservation is directly linked to the preservation of Africa's wildlife populations. In Zambia appoximately a third of the country is dedicated to conservation, both consumptive and non consumptive. The hunting concessions bordering our vast National Parks are classed as 'buffer zones' to these important ecosystems. In return the Parks are classed as 'feeder' areas. Our hunting activities protect the Parks and indeed the vast Game Management Areas (GMA's)that we lease. The system is designed that we reap the benefits from direct investment in land outside of National Parks. It is a business arrangement and wildlife is our business.

Lion quotas are divided amongst Prime, Secondary and Depleted Game Mangement Areas. Prime areas (game rich) are allocated 3 - 4 Lion each, Secondary (marginal) 1 - 2 Lion and Depleted none. Depleted areas are offered on longer term leases, usually 15 years, and the operators are required to invest for five years before any quotas are dedicted to these blocks. The incentive for them is to upgrade to Secondary or Prime status and reap the rewards of their efforts. Note that many renowned photographic companies are now operating in Prime (some in Secondary) hunting concessions which they advertize on the net as 'reserves', this is purely due to the concentrations of game. Although we do not get on very well it does add further protection to the Parks.

If the scenario was that all the Lions were shot out in the hunting concessions (GMA's) or poisoned or poached then so be it. But they would as a species survive and languish in our protected areas - for example Kafue National Park, 22,500 km sq which has been set aside to protect one of Africa's more important eco and river systems. If we as hunters can do our little bit to protect the Parks and to create buffer zones and invest in marginal areas then all species not just Lions will look after themselves.

Zambia as a tourist destination is about to boom and the world's biggest names in the non consumptive industry have already arrived. This will further enhance our protected areas and we in the consumptive industry will feed off their investments. Good for the Lions and good for our business. Swings and roundabouts.

Another example of conservation?

And this is from the horses mouth - I am currently investing in 50,000 acres of unfenced communal land (private sector/community joint venture) adjacent to the Kafue National Park. After two years intensive management our wildlife research department was invited to survey the land in order to assess game concentrations in leau of a hunting quota. Their three day documented study resulted not only in a quota but in a written commendation from the department of our efforts in conservation, however the researchers did initially refused me a Lion on the grounds that the area was not large enough to consider an offtake. I could have leopards and as many as I want? The local community in association with the regional wildlife department then argued that our project had adversly led to a dramatic increase in Lion conflicts (documented) with communal livestocks and that these Lions should be targeted and revenues could be earned rather than having them put down.

I am now investing my time and money to come up with systems to address wildlife conflicts, especially the Lion issue - one idea and well suggested by the community was to fence in their agricultural lands, however this is beyond my means at the moment as I currently derive no incomes from my investment. Interesting concept though? Another was to use my wildlife management teams to protect their livestock - although feasible it would be costly and probably not very productive. My suggestion was quite simple I would accomodate the Lions and feed them, a sort of feline bed & breakfast arrangement. However the Lions would pay some rent.

I would divide the rent with the community as compensation for the Lions anti social behaviour.

I have taken it a bit further and offered the community a division of all accrued safari incomes and extended 20% ownership of the hunting company to the community.

PS. Interesting to note that the land and opportunity I speak of was tendered to the public by the attached community in 2009 (and incorperates some 17 kms of prime Kafue riverbank) and with exception of the hunting fraternity no one forwarded an expression of interest as the area was deemed depleted of wildlife.

quote:

Lion quotas are divided amongst Prime, Secondary and Depleted Game Mangement Areas. Prime areas (game rich) are allocated 3 - 4 Lion each, Secondary (marginal) 1 - 2 Lion and Depleted none. Depleted areas are offered on longer term leases, usually 15 years, and the operators are required to invest for five years before any quotas are dedicted to these blocks.

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Brad, if you tell me who are the "many before" that you have heard off saying to you that we deliberately oversell our lion quota, i will answer your questions.

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Originally posted by JohnHunt:
The advantage to quota's is you don't have to determine the age of a lion while alive. You simply shoot what you find.

The downside is if you shoot the wrong lion it can have a significant additive mortality within the local lion population.

To have enough margin of safety (for wild population) built into the quota system you would allow for fewer lions to be killed then you might otherwise allow if under the age system.

According to Packer you can pretty much shoot all the 6 year old and older lions you want with no long term impact on the wildlife population. No limits, but harder to find an appropriate lion and success rates would drop.

The downside is the difficulty in correctly aging a lion that is alive and in the bush. And how to fairly handle situations where underage lions are harvested.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Lion quotas are divided amongst Prime, Secondary and Depleted Game Mangement Areas. Prime areas (game rich) are allocated 3 - 4 Lion each, Secondary (marginal) 1 - 2 Lion and Depleted none. Depleted areas are offered on longer term leases, usually 15 years, and the operators are required to invest for five years before any quotas are dedicted to these blocks.

Andrew,
A few questions if you have time, Are there set population or density numbers that determine the classifications of the GMA's? Does ZAWA set those numbers? How often are the numbers reviewed and who performs the affective census?
Thanks
Brad

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The quotas are set between ZAWA, the safari operator and the community.
60% of the quota has to be utilised annually or your quota is reduced.
Is this because ZAWA and the communities want the revenue?
Basically your quota has to be realistic or you are out of business.
Andrew, I am not sure I understand what you are saying in this last sentence?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Another example of conservation?

And this is from the horses mouth - I am currently investing in 50,000 acres of unfenced communal land (private sector/community joint venture) adjacent to the Kafue National Park. After two years intensive management our wildlife research department was invited to survey the land in order to assess game concentrations in leau of a hunting quota. Their three day documented study resulted not only in a quota but in a written commendation from the department of our efforts in conservation, however the researchers did initially refused me a Lion on the grounds that the area was not large enough to consider an offtake. I could have leopards and as many as I want? The local community in association with the regional wildlife department then argued that our project had adversly led to a dramatic increase in Lion conflicts (documented) with communal livestocks and that these Lions should be targeted and revenues could be earned rather than having them put down.

I am now investing my time and money to come up with systems to address wildlife conflicts, especially the Lion issue - one idea and well suggested by the community was to fence in their agricultural lands, however this is beyond my means at the moment as I currently derive no incomes from my investment. Interesting concept though? Another was to use my wildlife management teams to protect their livestock - although feasible it would be costly and probably not very productive. My suggestion was quite simple I would accomodate the Lions and feed them, a sort of feline bed & breakfast arrangement. However the Lions would pay some rent.

I would divide the rent with the community as compensation for the Lions anti social behaviour.

I have taken it a bit further and offered the community a division of all accrued safari incomes and extended 20% ownership of the hunting company to the community.

PS. Interesting to note that the land and opportunity I speak of was tendered to the public by the attached community in 2009 (and incorperates some 17 kms of prime Kafue riverbank) and with exception of the hunting fraternity no one forwarded an expression of interest as the area was deemed depleted of wildlife.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
There is a chunk of Africa on the Kafue river that I once sought. The game had been hammered into near exctinction and the river bank housed poachers and other criminal elements.

My first night I listened to the persistant yapping of dogs, the cackle of chickens. During the night I heard a shot and had to accept that there were some obstacles, some challenges that I could not overcome. Although it was Africa and the bush was hauntingly beautiful the game had gone and the wilderness was no longer there.

It was still dark in the morning when I decided to abandon this place and I remember sitting around the fire with a cup in my hand. A distant and mounful sound stilled the cackle of fowl and the howl of hounds. A hyena had survived and had dodged bullet and snare. It was for me the sound of the wild, a cry of hope. I unpacked my car and decided to stay.

Two years and all my dollars later I listen to Hyena and now and again the deep rumble of Lion. The elephant come in the dead of night to feed on the lush floodplains and I watch them in the moonlight. The land is wild again and it was worth every cent and every effort.

By no means has it fully recovered but to witness game on once empty plains and the trackes of buffalo is enough for me for now.

You may say this has very little to do with the post and what is the point? Well gentlemen all who have posted here are the men who keep wild Africa alive and hats off to you all.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

The quotas are set between ZAWA, the safari operator and the community.
60% of the quota has to be utilised annually or your quota is reduced.
Is this because ZAWA and the communities want the revenue?
Basically your quota has to be realistic or you are out of business.
Andrew, I am not sure I understand what you are saying in this last sentence?

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Originally posted by jolouburn:
Easy tiger! I like any other person like proof before I decide what I do and don't believe.
I haven't insulted you so give me the courtesy of not insulting me.