quote:

Pictured below are 2 male lions from Charisa - Northwest Zimbabwe (not too far away from the Omay and the Bumi lion). These pics were taken last month,

Someone should tell them there are some ladies available down in Bumi, they could replace THE LAST LION OF BUMI

I finally got to look at all the other Bumi Lion pics just a moment ago, both alive and dead. Assuming its the same lion, and I believe it is, I say he's 5 yrs of age, give or take 6 months - JMO.

The other pics were quite good!

I think that is pretty good. We all agree that is a 4.5 - 5.5 year old lion!

Aaron and Ledvm,

So ethical or unethical?

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Aaron and Ledvm,

So ethical or unethical?

Here is my answer and this is for Lane Easter...not LCTF as a whole.

I beleive the hunt was legal and ethical. Now...before you get angry at my answer...let me qualify.

This lion was at least close to being a totally acceptable animal. In the recent past...we have seen blatant taking of 2's & 3's in Zim.

I think we should learn from this lion and use it as a landmark to move away from in the future. I consider it a borderline animal and in today's Africa...if it is not a cut-and-dry > than 5 lion...and without dependent cubs...it should be passed on.

quote:

if it is not a cut-and-dry > than 5 lion...and without dependent cubs...it should be passed on.

At what point would you consider that the hunter has done his "due diligence" on verifying no "dependent cubs"?

quote:

I beleive the hunt was legal and ethical. Now...before you get angry at my answer...let me qualify.

Thanks for the reply and i'm not angry at all.

I disagree about the ethics of the kill but thats just my personal opinion based on the info we have. Lets be honest there are two sides to every story and then somewhere in the middle is the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

if it is not a cut-and-dry > than 5 lion...and without dependent cubs...it should be passed on.

At what point would you consider that the hunter has done his "due diligence" on verifying no "dependent cubs"?

Bradley,
Here is your homework assignment for the weekend.

Go back and re-read, for retention this time, all the threads where this has been discussed before.

After that...since you are logical, rational, and reasonable...I am sure you'll be up to snuff on my opinion and ready to debate with Aaron while glassing for some big horns out in the eastern Colorado prairie.

quote:

Bradley,
Here is your homework assignment for the weekend.

Go back and re-read, for retention this time, all the threads where this has been discussed before.

After that...since you are logical, rational, and reasonable...I am sure you'll be up to snuff on my opinion and ready to debate with Aaron while glassing for some big horns out in the eastern Colorado prairie.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

Lane,
1st of all, my name is not "Bradley", 2nd of all, don't be a prick, it was a sincere question and since YOU made the statement, I was interested in your thoughts on that subject. 3rd, for anyone interested, Lane is one of the founding members of the LCTF and his above approach to my question sums up quite nicely their attitude towards other hunters, particularly those who dare to question their "expertise". Lane, you really are a world class, miserable P.O.S.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

I beleive the hunt was legal and ethical. Now...before you get angry at my answer...let me qualify.

Thanks for the reply and i'm not angry at all.

I disagree about the ethics of the kill but thats just my personal opinion based on the info we have.

Jo - There in lies the entire problem with calling it ethical/unethical, etc. You are basing your opinion on ALL the info you have now. Including opinions from all sides of the globe, additional pictures that the guide/hunter were likely not aware of, etc, etc, etc.

Had I ALL the info we have now, likely I would have passed on shooting this lion, JMO. But, considering the lion does not look obviously young, is likley in the 5 yr old range, and the guide/hunter were the ONLY TWO people present at the hunt, to know ALL of the facts and make the call. I'll conceed that it was an acceptable hunt!

Just like all of our conversations, had you ever experienced a real lion hunt, under real hunting conditions, low-light, quick actions, excitment, etc, etc, etc. You would likely be in a much better position to understand and pass judgment/opinion as to the situation.

I can't even imagine passing judgment, or giving my opinion on something that I have NEVER, EVER experienced for myself, not even one single time. Obviously you're entitled to do so, but to me, it is extrememly irresponsible, un-just and just plain mind boggling to tell you the truth - JMO.

I've never, ever flown a plane, ever! Thus, I never go on pliotsareus.com and start giving my opinion on some previous plane crash, based on a bunch of different internet experts opinion. If I have no experience from which to draw my own conclusions, I have no buisness suggesting what was done, is unethical/illegal, etc. Truth is, I HAVE NO IDEA!!!! Again, JMO.

quote:

If I have no experience from which to draw my own conclusions, I have no buisness suggesting what was done, is unethical/illegal, etc. Truth is, I HAVE NO IDEA!!!! Again, JMO.

Aaron Neilson

Once again, saved for posterity.
Aaron, you are on fire this morning, that is 2 great posts in a row.

Aaron,

I comprehend that when this lion was shot the hunter probably thought it was older, didn't know it had young cubs, didn't know it was the last male there (if that is all true).
Do i think the hunter and PH should be punished in some way for this event? No providing they were all genuine mistakes. What may have appeared to be an ethical kill turned out not to be an ethical kill, no judgement on the hunter etc.

The problem is though that many many people against hunting have not had the opportunity to converse with people like yourself and learn a little more about how hunting works and the aging of lions etc. These people will just see an unethical kill full stop. For attitudes to hunting to change these accidents, mistakes need to be kept to a bare minimum and more people should be responsible enough to 'pass' on such a kill as you would have done.
Sometimes however you look at it hunters make a rod for their own backs (however unintentionally) when it comes to public opinion on them.

quote:

quote:
If I have no experience from which to draw my own conclusions, I have no buisness suggesting what was done, is unethical/illegal, etc. Truth is, I HAVE NO IDEA!!!! Again, JMO.

Aaron Neilson

Once again, saved for posterity.
Aaron, you are on fire this morning, that is 2 great posts in a row.

In an ideal world perhaps !!

I also see many people here making judgement calls on 'all' anti hunters. Considering their experience of them will be limited, do they have the right to an opinion on something they know little about?

quote:

In an ideal world perhaps !!

I also see many people here making judgement calls on 'all' anti hunters. Considering their experience of them will be limited, do they have the right to an opinion on something they know little about?

Anyone has the right to any opinion they desire, In fact, one of the many definitions of "opinion" is "a belief or judgement that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty". As far as your defensive position on my above post and the post on the other thread stating the same thing, as I stated before, "if the shoe fits, wear it", if not, I was not speaking to you. As far as the shoe fitting (if that is indeed the case), no need to feel insecure about that, there are many posters on this forum, even some of our so called "experts" who have no more experience lion hunting than you do. Please remember Jo, this is the internet and what someone presents themselves as may not be reality.

Honestly it wasn't a defensive position on either thread. Honestly and no offence meant here i'd rather hear what YOU think than just have you quote someone elses words, but that's just me.

As for opinion i'm of the same mind as you. There is a huge difference between fact and opinion and i will be the first to say i only share my opinion here most of the time.