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Jo, as for your and others inferences in this post and others that Governments will consider the perpetrators intent and state of mind in their decisions on whether to prosecute or not is simply preposterous

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They would side with you and rabid anti's in the prosecution of this PH and hunter (if the laws existed to support such prosecution, as they do in Tanzania).

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I have repeatedly said 5 should be the absolute cut-off and we should strive to shoot >than 6's actually.

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Preposterous?
Not really, the luring and baiting of a lion into hunting territory from a park is questionable when legality comes into play.

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As an aside i haven't insulted you so please give me the same courtesy. There is absolutely no need for calling ie, rabid anti hunters.

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As an aside does something really have to be illegal for you to admit that it was wrong?

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Is it not possible that this was just plain wrong on ethical grounds?

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Originally posted by jolouburn:
Not really, the luring and baiting of a lion into hunting territory from a park is questionable when legality comes into play.

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Jo, my reply was not about a lion shot in a legal hunting area (no matter where it came from), rather it was about shooting a lion that would be illegal in other countries due to it's age.

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Jo, There was no insult intended, I assure you (as is proven by some of the rediculous posts on that facebook page), there are "rabid anti's" out there (just as there are rabid pro's opposite them). If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, I was not referring to you.

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Perhaps there are some undisclosed facts that could make that possible, but from the information that is currently available, I would say no. A legal hunter took a legal lion in a legal manner on a legal hunting concession, and in the process injected 10's of thousands of dollars into the local revenue starved economy. I would guess that hunter did more for the lion as a whole, Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife, the local community and his fellow man than 99% of those pissing and moaning about this situation. Just my $.02

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Besides, all baiting is by default luring an animal to the bait site. A Necessary (Not unethical) process to help identify the correct specimen to be hunted for ethical, legal, conservation and sustainability reasons

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Originally posted by jolouburn:

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Besides, all baiting is by default luring an animal to the bait site. A Necessary (Not unethical) process to help identify the correct specimen to be hunted for ethical, legal, conservation and sustainability reasons

I know very little about baiting to be honest but i do feel baiting an animal out of a park and into hunting territory is definately unethical.

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IF the lion was 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 as the claim states was it ethical to shoot that lion?
I personally do not draw an ethics boundary around the age or size of an animal killed. I feel that parks officials and concession operators should be conservative enough in their population census that an animal of the sex required can be harvested with little to no adverse effect on the population of the area concerned. I would be more interested in knowing how big the Omay is, what it's estimated lion population is, how many tags were issued and how many were filled, than the age of 1 lion harvested.
IF the lion was the last male in the area was it ethical to shoot that lion?
1st, I see no way that a hunter or concession operator could know the answer to this question, so how could it ever enter into their decision making process. However, if that were the case, I would be more concerned about management that issues a tag where there is 1 male of any species left, and I would seriously doubt that happened here.
IF the lion had just sired 4 cubs which could possibly die as a result of the shooting of this lion was it ethical to shoot this lion?
Once again, how would a hunter or operator know this if the cubs and lioness were not with the male? In my opinion, this is where many idealistic groups arguements fall apart, this is life, you cannot control everything, you give something (a lions life) for something more valuable in return (a finite amount of money or in the further abstract, an increased value and reason to protect the species from its real threats)
IF this lion was lured and bated from a non-hunting area into a hunting area was the shooting of this lion ethical?
Absolutely, that lion went from being protected to being fairgame when it crossed that river, it served a valuable purpose on both sides. In Bumi, it provided the opportunity for education, enjoyment and revenue generation by tourist. In Omay, it drew a hunter, his substantial amount of money who took the lion, which consequently will allow another male in to Bumi now to further propogate the species, the operator had a successful hunt which he will use to promote his business and bring more money into a starved economy. My point is that there is give and take throughout this ordeal, it is not "all is lost" as is presented by one side or the other. That lion was a huge asset to the people of Zimbabwe regardless of what side of that river or in what manner he was killed.

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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I have repeatedly said 5 should be the absolute cut-off and we should strive to shoot >than 6's actually.

So, would you agree that the 6+ rule in Tanzania would better serve the cause if it was 5+?

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Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You guys Ms Jo is referring to an age estimate provided (if you trust the FB poster) by a Dr. Whitman. She helped Packer with his aging lions guide book.

Someone should email her to confirm the estimate.

The nose is very hard to judge as under six but the mohawk says younger.

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If Dr. Whitman made a judgment call, based on the same pic I've seen, then good for her. But, until the scientific "experts" show me their "personal" experience from the area/region in which they are commenting on, I'll pay it little attention.

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This is the problem, even with 99% of the scientists I know who claim to be the "lion" experts. I can't name or think of one, that has vast experience throughout southern/eastern Africa with different regions, different lion populations, etc, etc. Using one's scientific evidence from northern Tanzania, to accurately guestimate the age of a lion from 1,000 miles away, in a place in which one has never seen, hunted, or studied the local lions, is simply irresponsible, period!

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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If Dr. Whitman made a judgment call, based on the same pic I've seen, then good for her. But, until the scientific "experts" show me their "personal" experience from the area/region in which they are commenting on, I'll pay it little attention.

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This is the problem, even with 99% of the scientists I know who claim to be the "lion" experts. I can't name or think of one, that has vast experience throughout southern/eastern Africa with different regions, different lion populations, etc, etc. Using one's scientific evidence from northern Tanzania, to accurately guestimate the age of a lion from 1,000 miles away, in a place in which one has never seen, hunted, or studied the local lions, is simply irresponsible, period!

See Aaron, we do agree on something.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

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If Dr. Whitman made a judgment call, based on the same pic I've seen, then good for her. But, until the scientific "experts" show me their "personal" experience from the area/region in which they are commenting on, I'll pay it little attention.

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This is the problem, even with 99% of the scientists I know who claim to be the "lion" experts. I can't name or think of one, that has vast experience throughout southern/eastern Africa with different regions, different lion populations, etc, etc. Using one's scientific evidence from northern Tanzania, to accurately guestimate the age of a lion from 1,000 miles away, in a place in which one has never seen, hunted, or studied the local lions, is simply irresponsible, period!

See Aaron, we do agree on something.

Here are the facts on the Bumi/Omay situation.

The operator willingly sent me pics of the trophy lion without me even asking them for them. I asked for permission to share so that they could be used for computer analysis. His agent said OK.

I sent the pics to Karyl Whitman for her to analyze on her software against those we had of the Bumi lion. They matched with a high degree of certainty.

I also submitted the pics I had of trophy along with Bumi lion pics to a panel of experts for age ESTIMATION. This panel consisted of 2 hunting operators and 4 scientists. 5 opined on age (2 of which were hunting operators). They consistently put the lion into the 4.5 to 5.5 range. FYI: the hunting operators were the most critical...both saying not a day over 4.5. The scientist ALL said most likely 4.5 but maybe 5.5...IE: they were MORE lenient.

I, without their input, thought the lion was a 5 year old +/- 1 year...based on the trophy pic.

These are the facts as know them.

I have repeatly defended the operator in this case as I see NOTHING that he did wrong...especially illegal or unethical.

My analysis: I think the lion was borderline acceptable on age. I would have opted to pass on this lion at least for a year. But it was a close call for me. But again...I see nothing done wrong, especially illegal, or unethical in this situation. As we all learn...I think we will begin to all pass these borderline animals.