I booked a hunt with Karl Stumpfe of Ndumo Hunting Safaris in the Caprivi/Kavango area of Namibia in July 2012. Here is my complaint to the Namibian Professional Hunters Association (NAPHA):


The Disciplinary Committee
Namibian Professional Hunters Association (NAPHA)
4 July 2012
Dear Sir,

I wish to lodge a complaint about one of your members, Karl Stumpfe who operates Ndumo Safaris. I booked a hunt with him which was to take place in the Caprivi/Kavango area of Namibia commencing on 1 July 2012 at which time I would be picked up from the airport at Kasane in Botswana and finishing on 9 July 2012 at which time I would be returned back to Kasane Airport. I was to hunt kudu, hyena and warthog.

Karl Stumpe stated that he would obtain the Botswana Rifle Permit. Although I supplied the information he requested necessary for him to obtain the permit on 6 March 2012, and despite my continual emails asking him whether he has obtained the permit, the date on the application for the permit was 12 June 2012 and the permit was received on 15 June 2012 which was 15 days before my flight on 30 June 2012. However, the permit had the wrong date on it. The permit was for 3 July to 10 July and I was due to arrive in Botswana on 1 July. Therefore the permit was invalid for my requirements. Attached to the permit was the application for the permit which I believe was filled out by Karl Stumpfe. The application for the permit had the wrong date on it – 3 July to 10 July 2012.

When I informed Karl Stumpfe that the permit was invalid, he said that he would obtain another permit with the correct dates. As the day for my flight was fast approaching, I sent several emails stating that I haven’t received the permit yet. I made it clear in my emails to Karl Stumpfe that I needed the Botswana permit not only to clear customs with my rifle and ammunition in Botswana, but also for supporting documentation for my Intransit Rifle Permit in Johannesburg, South Africa.

The day before my flight, I sent an email to Karl Stumpfe stating that unless I receive either my permit or confirmation from him before my flight, that he had a scoped rifle in camp for my use, that I would not be coming. At no time did he mention whether there was a suitable rifle in camp for my use, if the permit did not come through in time. I tried several times to phone Karl Stumpfe in the days preceding my flight, but no one answered the phone and there was no message taking facility on the phone. There was no email received from Karl Stumpfe with either the permit or confirmation that there would be a rifle for me in camp. So I had to abandon my hunting trip to Namibia.

Karl Stumpfe sent the new permit late on Sunday night, more than 24 hours after my flight had departed. He has refused to reimburse my expenses. Even when the new permit came through, it was still wrong. It had intransit from Zimbabwe through Botswana to Namibia when I had made it very clear that I was going from South Africa to Botswana.

I believe that Karl Stumpfe was negligent because he did not allow enough time for the obtaining of the Botswana Intransit permit, notwithstanding that I was requesting him to obtain the permit from 6 March. By leaving it very late in obtaining the permit, it did not allow any margin for if things went wrong. He was negligent in writing the wrong dates on the permit and thereby causing it to be invalid for my date of arrival. He was negligent in failing to respond to my emails requesting confirmation that he had a scoped rifle in camp for my use and negligent in not supplying a valid permit by the time for me to depart on my flight.

Karl Stumpfe argues that I do not need an Intransit Rifle permit in Johannesburg with accepting country (Botswana) documentation. I made it very clear to Karl Stumpfe several times in the months preceding my flight that South African Airlines does not have a baggage handling agreement with Air Botswana and therefore I need an Intransit permit in Johannesburg. It is clearly stated on the South African Customs website that with an application for a South African Intransit permit, there must be attached as supporting documentation, accepting country (in this case Botswana) documentation. I needed the Botswana permit to clear customs in Johannesburg.

Karl Stumpfe also has stated that I do not need to have the Botswana permit when I try to clear customs in Botswana. It would be very foolish for me to fly to Botswana (assuming that I could clear customs in Johannesburg) and try to clear customs with my rifle in Botswana without having a copy of the permit in my hand.

Other Areas of Complaint about Karl Stumpfe
I originally stated that I would fly from Australia to Windhoek in Namibia for the hunt. The only viable route was via Johannesburg. However, as South African Airlines flies to Windhoek via Johannesburg from Australia, I would not require an Intransit visa in South Africa. I would also not require an Intransit permit in Botswana. However, Karl Stumpfe stated that I should fly to Kasane in Botswana as it was closer to the Caprivi hunting area in Namibia. This therefore meant that I needed both a South African Intransit permit and a Botswana Intransit permit for my rifles. I believe Karl Stumpfe was negligent in giving me that advice, and ultimately, I was not able to fly with my rifle.

I emailed Karl Stumpfe and explained that I really wanted to take my own rifle and ammunition with me, however, to minimise the potential loss, I would borrow a rifle if the permit did not come through on time, if he could give me assurance that there would be a scoped rifle in camp. However, the hunt is not worth as much to me if I can’t take my own rifle. I have worked up my hand loads and I am very familiar with my rifle and how it shoots. Nevertheless, I offered to still go on the hunt if he could assure me that there was a scoped rifle for my use. No such assurance came. I could not find anything on his website to say that there would be spare rifles in camp. I emailed him on the day before my scheduled flight:

Karl,

It is 5.42 am on Friday 29 June Sydney time. I believe you are 8 hours behind Sydney time. I am due to fly out tomorrow.
I have not received the permit for Botswana. I really want to use my own rifle and handloads, this is half the hunt to me. I really do not want to use a borrowed rifle.
To minimize losses, will there definitely be a scoped rifle for my exclusive use in camp with a crisp trigger pull of around 3 lb between the following calibres: 338 first choice down to 270 Win minimum?
Unless I receive the permit and I can print the permit out or I receive confirmation from you that I can definitely borrow the above described rifle, then I will not be able to come. If the permit comes , I will email you immediately.
Please respond asap.

Regards
David Duffy

I emailed Karl Stumpfe again before the plane was due to depart and said that I have not received anything. I had made it very clear to Karl Stumpfe that I would not be coming if I didn’t receive any confirmation or permit.

When I was to pay the deposit to Karl Stumpfe for my hunt in January, he confirmed that I could send an overseas draft in US dollars and he gave me his new post office box. He held onto the overseas draft and then asked me to send the money to him again via electronic transfer because he couldn’t cash the draft. So I incurred additional costs in cancelling the draft, in addition to purchasing the draft, and also suffering the exchange conversion losses in converting my currency from Australian to US dollars and then back again to Australian dollars when the draft was ultimately cancelled. However, none of this loss will Karl Stumpfe compensate me for. He stated that as far as he was concerned, I had not paid my deposit on the hunt until I paid the deposit a second time via electronic transfer which I did as soon as he sent me his bank account details. He has later admitted that he could cash the draft, there was just a 6 week wait until the funds were cleared. The draft was sent to him on 31 January 2012., which allowed plenty of time for the funds to be cleared before my scheduled arrival in July.

When I checked my emails early Monday the 2 July (2 days after my flight), Karl Stumpfe had sent the new permit (which was still wrong because it had Intransit from Zimbabwe on it) and another email stating that there was someone waiting for me at Kasane with the Botswana Intransit permit in his hand. He requested that I phone him as soon as possible, which I did. When I discussed how I had to abandon my hunt because of his negligence and he asked what do I want to do, I said I wanted compensation for my direct costs. I said I would forego compensation for all the inconvenience and loss of my hunt provided he compensates me for my costs. I explained that my airfares were $2200, my injections and malaria tablets were $220, costs of lodging documents for the hunt $50, losses on the cancelled overseas draft $200 and $2125 deposit to him. These costs total $4795. Karl Stumpfe shouted that he was not paying me anything and slammed down the phone. This sort of behaviour by Karl Stumpfe is hardly what I would expect from a Professional Hunter in Africa, especially when he asked me to phone him.

I have since written to Karl Stumpfe setting out how I believe he was negligent and my claim for compensation for losses which were caused directly through his negligence. I have also informed him that I would be taking this matter further to various bodies such as NAPHA, Ministry of Finance and other professionals in the industry as well as on the internet whether he compensates me or not. I believe it is important that as many relevant people know about how Karl Stumpfe from Ndumo Safaris operates and his behaviour.
Lastly, Karl Stumpfe has offered that I am welcome to come on another hunt with him, but that I would have to pay more than the normal costs to compensate him for the additional costs of this cancelled hunt!
I believe Karl Stumpfe’s actions reflect badly on the integrity of Professional Hunters in Namibia, and ultimately damages the hunting industry in Namibia.
Note that I have all the supporting documentation such as emails to support my claims against Karl Stumpfe and Ndumo Hunting Safaris. I can forward these to you on request.
I will await your advice on the matter. Thank you.

Regards
David Duffy

Sounds vaguely familiar - hate to hear this for you.

So sorry to hear about your ruined trip. I'd like to hear Karl's side of the story as well. Should be interesting.

On the facts presented, if I were in the shoes of the client I would also want my money back. Just like the incident of "two elephant with one bullet" where general opinion tended to favour the fairest and most equitable outcome, the same should apply here.
My 10c worth (ZAR)
JCHB

I sure hate that your safari got ruined.
I'd want my money back as well.

I would have gone anyway. I am sure everything would be sorted out on the ground permit or no permit.

Good Hunting

CF

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell: I would have gone anyway. I am sure everything would be sorted out on the ground permit or no permit.

Me too.

Being the eternal optomist and go with the flow guy (albeit with a pretty good imagination of how to "fix" stuff and having had good experiences with figuring it out when I get there on 20+ safaris) I would have taken Ike and Tina's advice:

My philosophy on Africa

I've hunted with Karl, as have a number of my acquaintenances, and have always found him to be fair, flexible, and able to work through the inevitable "issues" that occur in Africa. There might be more to the story than we know here.

another trial by internet

David, was this your first African hunt? If you have had say a dozen or more maybe you would have looked at the case a bit differently. From what you have said yea you got screwed.

Too bad .... I had a foul up a few years ago on a buffalo hunt in Northern Australia ... nasty paperwork for the guns (at that time the American gov't wouldn't permit a Canadian like myself to fly via the States with a gun ... I could have gotten off in California and gone hunting with my ATF permit ... but I couldn't be in transit......) finally I said to hell with it and borrowed a rifle ... I'm left handed and the first buffalo bull took 9 shots with the right handed 375 ... Glad that I went ... it all worked out and met great people and had a wonderful and incredibly interesting trip ...

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
another trial by internet

You could be right but there have been a couple of these types of posts in the last little while like this. I figure if a guy gets one or 2 bad posts then I think stuff happens but I have seen a few posts now with people that have had problems including Tim Heralds report!!
http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/4861047311/p/1

There was another one by a Canadian guy posted a few months back as well and that is 2 of them off the top of my head.
On the other side of things I have seen many, many great hunt reports as well.

I remeber Tim's report well.

Where there is smoke, there is usually a fire.

David and Tim have nothing to gain by posting negative experiences. It's hard for victims to speak out, I know. It just serves to relive the issues all over again that we would rather put behind us.

Karl, it's a big wide world out there. Too many good operators to take a chance with you.

And it's an incredibly small world too. Welcome to the internet.

Mr. Duffy

Thanks for your comments, and those of your supporters. I will try and stay out of a mudslinging match as far as possible, but I fear my patience with people that think they can try and ruin someone’s reputation overnight, is rather low.
Let me put some points in perspective, and maybe you could answer a few questions before any of you start to dig the hole for the crucifix.

• Who cancelled the hunt, me or you?
• According to my contract, if you cancel the hunt less than 6 months out, what should you expect in return?
• What point(s) of my contract do you think I did not adhere to?
• When did I learn of your “cancellation?”
• Who would you trust to know how it actually works on the ground, someone local that knows how they apply the laws, or your own judgement on what you have read on the internet?
• When in your whole life have you ever phoned me personally on my cell phone? (A number that is available freely on the internet, and on the contract that you have.)
• When you could not reach me on my wife’s phone, or on the email that I already told you was not working properly in camp, why did you not text me or my wife?
• Failing this, why did you not jump unto one of the forums as you are so eager to do now, and try and get a friend of mine to get a hold of me?
• Have you ever heard of a safari camp that does not have a suitable gun in camp?
• Please explain to me how you slam down a cellular phone?
• Who had to pay for a PH to fly to Katima from Windhoek (and back), had to have a camp ready for you, had to send a PH with one of my vehicles to fetch you in Kasane (a round trip of approximately 500km or 300 miles), had to pay for your hunting and fire arms permits, had to guy food and drinks for you?
• Why did you try and blackmail me? Is there something more sinister going on, or is there another reason your buddy was one of the first responders?
Then just a few random comments from me:
I acknowledge that the first permit I had send you, had the wrong date, but also told you on the phone and via email way before your flight left that I had a permit with the right date on it. The fact that your spy ware did not allow that email through is probably my fault too, isn’t it? (And I also have proof of this, it was re- sent the 28th of June, 2012, at approximately 23h00)
No one I know of has ever asked for the permit to be scanned and sent to them, and no one I know of has ever been asked for such a permit. I myself have flown on SAA with a custom gun that was repaired in Bloemfontein, to Johannesburg, and then on to Kasane with Botswana Air, and no one asked for that permit ever.
There is a huge difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Also, there is a huge difference what some websites say and what the actual application is.
You would have been fine with your guns all the way to the Caprivi, like all my other clients before you, and the ones after you. And if something would have happened (like a lost bag, NOT an issue with permits), or if you have come without your gun, you know as well as I do that I had appropriate guns in camp.
As to the route I discussed and recommended to you, I did this to save you a night in Windhoek, and approximately US$ 400 in airfares, and an extra day from work.
So in short, you cancelled/ abandoned a hunt, with my PH waiting for you at the airport, because you did not trust my judgement on how the permits work/ that I have a suitable gun in camp? Then why did you book with me?
Now you expect a refund? Seriously?

David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

David, sorry to hear about your bad experience. If what you say is true, then one more PH to add to the black list.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

Bingo! We have a winner!

That sums it up. I don't know either of these gents, but I will side with the PH on this one. Canceling abruptly at the last minute really screws an outfitter over. They rarely can fill the spot on the spur of the moment, and they have the expense of a prepared camp idle.

What is the worst case scenario that might have transpired if the client was denied use of the permit? This is, after all, Africa. There are ways of taking care of bureaucratic tie ups (not suggesting anything illegal).

I'm sure the PH knows EVERYBODY at the airport and EVERYBODY in the security to get things sorted out. They do it every week. The worst case scenario would have been the rifles would have been held at security until his departure, and he could have used one of the PH's rifles. Safari would have gone smoothly.

I'm leaving for RSA next week, and got lazy about obtaining permits ahead of time, and still have time to to it. Instead, I called my PH, who is a long time friend and asked if I could just use one of his. Now I have the opportunity to do a cull with a suppressed .270, which I couldn't do at home. That will be a fun experience.

Africa is different. It doesn't work the way the US, Europe, or OZ does. You have to put some trust in the local operators, who live with and deal with locals. They know the rules. While there are always a few bad apples (some atrocious) a overwhelming majority are good guys that work hard for a living. Haven't see too many retire young and rich to the South Seas.

sorry guy - but with just 1 post and that a bitching one, i can't help but wonder what your objective is other than trying to ruins someones reputation.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
sorry guy - but with just 1 post and that a bitching one, i can't help but wonder what your objective is other than trying to ruins someones reputation.

On the other hand butchloc I do not feel that one should be afraid of posting a negative report, and AR is a well respected forum which offers the unique opportunity to voice your experiences whether good or bad.

We have an open forum.

Both sides are free to state their case.

Butch ol buddy David may be like the kid that never spoke until he was 5 and said" Mom the meat is burned" ask why he had not talked before said never had anything to complain about. Maybe David has been here but never posted before, not every one is like us with thousands and thousands of posts.

Seems like I had bigger obstacles to overcome than that on all three of my trips to Africa. It's Africa for God's sake. Things just don't go by the numbers there and it's no use getting upset about every little thing when there will no doubt be problems.

ps I still have a rifle somewhere in RSA from 1974.

I got no skin in this game but after reading Tim's report I can't say I would every book with Karl. Tim, unlike most of us, makes his living in this industry and it takes a lot of guts to post something like this.

Put it another way: ever seen anyone else in the industry ever post a negative hunt report? Why do you suppose you have not?

As time goes on, my respect for Tim grows. He is about the most transparent outdoor personality out there. Yea, he splashes the TC logo around, but he admits being paid for it. Who else does that? Dave Fulson is the only other person who comes to mind (show sponsors).

Karl,
After reading this post I went back and read all 9 pages of Tim's disasterous Leopard hunt with you....the tone of your response is the same for each client:

It seems that everyone "Lies" but you!

I think that you spoke loud and clear to anyone considering booking a hunt with you.

Good Job.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Karl,
After reading this post I went back and read all 9 pages of Tim's disasterous Leopard hunt with you....the tone of your response is the same for each client:

It seems that everyone "Lies" but you!

I think that you spoke loud and clear to anyone considering booking a hunt with you.

Good Job.

Mr Leopard Track, please point out where I said Mr. Duffy lied?

Put me in the camp of folk who:

1. Have had absolutely outstanding experiences with Karl Stumpfe and Ndumo Safaris;

2. is planning on booking another safari with him which will include three of the most important people in my life (my father, my wife and my daughter);
and
3. am sorry that Dave didn't continue on with his planned safari as I expect that, despite the bumps and his concerns, would have been a wonderful and fulfilling experience.

I have zero reservations about booking my next or any safari with Karl Stumpfe.

I have also had two very good and also very successful hunts with Karl. He is a very pleasant fellow to hunt with. He thinks well on his feet and he has on both of my hunts with him shown an ability "to make a plan" and hammer out details as they arise.

I have little doubt in my mind that if the hunter would have gone ahead as planned that Karl would have worked through the details and they would have had a great hunt.

Sorry for both hunter and PH as it sounds as if there are no winners in this deal.

This was to be my second hunting trip to Africa. On my first hunt I got a cape buffalo. As such, there would be people on this forum who have more experience or knowledge of Africa and are more qualified than me to make posts and answer questions about Africa than me. Please note than I am on a different time zone to many of you and as such, my responses may be delayed.

As far as Karl Stumpfe's claim of me having a "buddy" on this forum who was one of the first who responded, none of the respondents have I met or know or have dealt with in any way other than Karl Stumpfe.

I do not see this situation as one where I have cancelled the hunt. It is fundamental to a hunting trip that I be able to hunt. Preferably, with my own rifle. At all times prior to the flight, I was ready to go on my flight if the permit came through or I received confirmation that there would be a suitable rifle that I could use. Neither of these occurred. As far as the claim that my spyware was not allowing the permit to come through, I did receive the first permit with the incorrect dates on it when it was sent and I also received the second permit with the incorrect transit country on it well after my flight had departed.

I believe that there was far too great a risk trying to take a rifle through customs in Johannesburg and also Botswana without the correct documentation. A very likely outcome of doing this would be the confiscation of my rifle which with scope was worth $2000. I do not believe that all the reports of problems with rifles intransit of Johannesburg are fictitious.

There were two phone numbers for Karl Stumpfe that I had. In the months leading up to the hunt, I was never able to contact him on the first number. He confirmed verbally that the second phone number was best to contact him on. Ultimately in the days prior to my flight, there was no reply to either number.

I accept that in Africa things don't always run smoothly. I allowed for this, by requesting that the correct documentation be completed in March, April well before my scheduled flight in July. As far as "getting upset", there is a significant financial loss associated with this matter. At no time did Karl Stumpfe offer any kind of apology for his stuff-ups with the permit.

I think that it is important that hunters know about problems with hunts as well as when hunts are successful. That way they can make more informed decisions.

I guess that he just dosn't tell the truth...just like Tim Herald. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Karl,
After reading this post I went back and read all 9 pages of Tim's disasterous Leopard hunt with you....the tone of your response is the same for each client:

It seems that everyone "Lies" but you!

I think that you spoke loud and clear to anyone considering booking a hunt with you.

Good Job.

Mr Leopard Track, please point out where I said Mr. Duffy lied?

I, like many above, have hunted with Karl Stumpfe & had a great experience.

Four months ago I flew the exact route David describes, Johannesburg to Maun
then on to Kasane. I sent all my firearm & passport information to Karl
ahead of time & my permits were there when I arrived.

Hopefully, Karl & Mr Duffy can work this out!

As most who have hunted in Africa realize, the safari business is full
of logistical surprises. (govt. regulations & quota changes, weather, supply
problems, PH availability,...). The amount of problems seems quite different
from country to country, different PH's & safari companies. But in the end, no one
is immune.

Can we move this to the Hunt Report area and go on.

Sure you wanted your own loads. Who doesn't, but Its Africa, for crying out loud.

Risky business, this African Hunting, But sometime you have to say WTF.

zzz

Bottom line for me is that the OP provided all rifle permit info almost 90 days in advance of the hunt and yet Karl did not have his permits available one week prior to his departure. WTF?

I would have gone anyway, and taken my rifles, but then I have 16 safaris in 8 african countries. This would have been the OPs second safari. Big difference, yes?

quote:

Originally posted by David Duffy:
This was to be my second hunting trip to Africa. On my first hunt I got a cape buffalo. As such, there would be people on this forum who have more experience or knowledge of Africa and are more qualified than me to make posts and answer questions about Africa than me. Please note than I am on a different time zone to many of you and as such, my responses may be delayed.

As far as Karl Stumpfe's claim of me having a "buddy" on this forum who was one of the first who responded, none of the respondents have I met or know or have dealt with in any way other than Karl Stumpfe.

I do not see this situation as one where I have cancelled the hunt. It is fundamental to a hunting trip that I be able to hunt. Preferably, with my own rifle. At all times prior to the flight, I was ready to go on my flight if the permit came through or I received confirmation that there would be a suitable rifle that I could use. Neither of these occurred. As far as the claim that my spyware was not allowing the permit to come through, I did receive the first permit with the incorrect dates on it when it was sent and I also received the second permit with the incorrect transit country on it well after my flight had departed.

I believe that there was far too great a risk trying to take a rifle through customs in Johannesburg and also Botswana without the correct documentation. A very likely outcome of doing this would be the confiscation of my rifle which with scope was worth $2000. I do not believe that all the reports of problems with rifles intransit of Johannesburg are fictitious.

There were two phone numbers for Karl Stumpfe that I had. In the months leading up to the hunt, I was never able to contact him on the first number. He confirmed verbally that the second phone number was best to contact him on. Ultimately in the days prior to my flight, there was no reply to either number.

I accept that in Africa things don't always run smoothly. I allowed for this, by requesting that the correct documentation be completed in March, April well before my scheduled flight in July. As far as "getting upset", there is a significant financial loss associated with this matter. At no time did Karl Stumpfe offer any kind of apology for his stuff-ups with the permit.

I think that it is important that hunters know about problems with hunts as well as when hunts are successful. That way they can make more informed decisions.

When i was going thru SA they left the number off the permit in one of the group the first word out of the offical was we are going to have to take you to jail. It was straightened out there is not doubt in my mind I would have did what you did. Its easy to run someone down of the forum its a different story when you are in a foreign country and the first word is jail. No way I woudl go without the right paper work and I hope the people reading this post dont follow the advice to go with out it.

I went back and read Tim's report. All I can say is DAMN!!!!! That got my attention.

On the other hand, Africa isn't like the US. Things often happen.

Don't know either party involved so I'm not taking up for anyone or criticizing anyone. All I have to say is, 875x, they aren't really going to through you in jail for that. Like Larry and others here have said, it's Africa. Lighten up and enjoy the exerience, including any misadventures -- and there will be some.

I learned years ago -- ignore your watch - it will happen when it is meant to happen; don't stress over the unexpected - that is the one thing that is sure to happen; go with the flow - for the most part, there is a practical solution to virtually everything (yes, sometimes $); enjoy your safari.

If you stay as tightly wrapped as you are in the world, you'll miss most of the enjoyment and it won't be a pleasant experience.

I'll admit, I have a slight advantage. My lovely wife of 30 years is of Irish descent, and "African time" is only slightly slower than "Irish time", so I've had a lot of practice. The first African trip was still stressful however. It didn't need to be.

I have no dog in this fight. I scanned the postings, so I may have missed something.

Problems often occur due to lack of communication. There's usually no excuse for it.

Once you're in Africa, you have to pretty much just go with the flow. But you're crazy if you don't eliminate as much potential for error as you can well before you get there. Too much money and time invested to do otherwise.

Your level of experience certainly affects your comfort level of handling certain situations, but the expectation of precision from professionals should not diminish because of this.