quote:

you're in the safari industry as mainly a fishing guide

well after 12 years and 20+ hunting trips to africa i know a littel of the industri....if you have a travel insuranse you will get your money back if the airticket is not used.....
i hope you 2 will get a settelment cause throwing stones at eachother will not work at all.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
particularly when a large majority of reports about the guy are positive.

While I agree with much of the wisdom the esteemed Judge bestows...I will add the following point of wisdom life has taught me.

When assessing character...It is often NOT how one conducts oneself when times are good that are telling but one's actions when times are difficult usually define the man.

I really don't know whether Karl Stumpfe is the sort of person who, when his clients suffer a loss through his own mistakes, is prepared to settle. So maybe this is something that future clients need to consider when choosing a PH. As I have said, I am prepared to settle and move on.

I guess I am not "cut out for Africa" either. I have years of experience traveling around the world. When I was a contractor for the DOS, most of my time was spent getting US citizens out of problems they created by ignoring the rules. Some of them were hunters that chose to attempt to illegally bring firearms and ammunition into the country without the proper permits. (Hey, it's a third world country, forget the rules!)That is one reason why airlines will not take firearms at times. It has little to do with politics and more to do with them being fined and receiving penalty points for transporting someone into an area without the proper documentation.

I fully understand the problems and zero sense of urgency (Latin time, Africa time, China time, etc.). However, I never move forward until we (they and I) get it right. If that means delaying the operation, fine. You back up and replan. When plan A and B goes to he//, remember you have 24 other letters. But all parties must communicate and be flexible if possible. Why do we think it is OK to do things we cannot or would not do in our own country?

Personally, at this time I do not want to go on a hunt and not be able to use my own firearm. I would not rule out using a camp gun if the airlines botched it or my gun went down. However, I want the basic details of hunting 101 (gun and hunting permits) to be properly conducted.

"Before David comes to Dallas to get in Karl's face, he needs to remember that Karl took a leopard charge for a client and killed the leopard with his bare hands. I asked Karl about it and his response was that it was not an experience that he would recommend."

If you believe that story...

I had some of these same permit issues on my first trip to Africa in 2006. The outfitter said he was trying to get my gun permits sorted out ahead of time but it just never happened for one reason or another. I was a bit anxious about the situation but he said to come on and we'll sort it out over there. I showed up with an invitation letter saying I was going hunting, a passport for identification, a US Customs Form 4457 showing ownership of the guns, and an airline itinerary showing I planned to leave at some future date. For the record, that's what the SAA Police say is required for a firearms permit. I presented these 4 items to the police station in the JoBerg airport. I was on my way with permits in hand in about 15 minutes as there were only 2 other hunters on the plane that day.

I've made 6 more trips since then to both RSA and Zim, with each Zim trip requiring an "Intransit" permit from RSA. It just isn't a big deal! I can't imagine refusing to get on the plane and missing out on Safari over this.

Yes, I know other places are different. I've hunted Russia twice and wouldn't try that without prior arrangements. But then again, I've never heard anyone or any outfitter suggesting to sort out the Russia gun paperwork on the spot. That's the big difference here in my opinion. Listen to what the guys on the ground there say. They have local knowledge.

I don't know Karl and it does seem that plenty of time was available to get the permits sorted. But like I said, I had a very similar thing happen with my permits in 06. I don't know why the outfitter wasn't able to get it sorted prior to my arrival. But the bottom line is, I listened to the guy I trusted my Safari to, it went as he said it would once I arrived, and I had an awesome experience to start my African Hunting run.

DD, I'm sorry the permit situation didn't go smoothly for you but in all honesty, you overreacted by refusing to go. JMO of course as we all have different levels of risk acceptance. But in the aftermath, Karl and his staff still have to pay for the expenses that were necessary to prepare for your hunt. I would imagine his expenses exceed what you already paid so he is out funds. You are out the funds you spent as well as out the experiences of a world class adventure. With all of the "what if's" and such in your post, I have to wonder if your staying home wasn't the best course of action for all concerned. To specify that a camp rifle will only be satisfactory if it has a "crisp" trigger pull of 3 lbs and then the rant of imagined "what if's" with all the wounded and lost animals / days searching for said wounded and lost animals, etc., that followed based on a 4 & 3/4 lb trigger? Seriously??

Before setting out on a course to ruin a guy's reputation with the internet, and again, I have no dog in this fight as I don't know Karl at all, I would suggest you take an objective look at this situation. Yes, the permits should have been taken care of or explained better, but what was the real downside? The REAL downside? Sitting in an African hunting camp with a 5lb trigger on a borrowed rifle instead of sitting home eating bon bons and watching TV because you refused to go? Refusing to go was the classic "cut off your nose to spite your face" scenario. You really showed them!!

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
I guess I am not "cut out for Africa" either. I have years of experience traveling around the world. When I was a contractor for the DOS, most of my time was spent getting US citizens out of problems they created by ignoring the rules. Some of them were hunters that chose to attempt to illegally bring firearms and ammunition into the country without the proper permits. (Hey, it's a third world country, forget the rules!)That is one reason why airlines will not take firearms at times. It has little to do with politics and more to do with them being fined and receiving penalty points for transporting someone into an area without the proper documentation.

I fully understand the problems and zero sense of urgency (Latin time, Africa time, China time, etc.). However, I never move forward until we (they and I) get it right. If that means delaying the operation, fine. You back up and replan. When plan A and B goes to he//, remember you have 24 other letters. But all parties must communicate and be flexible if possible. Why do we think it is OK to do things we cannot or would not do in our own country?

Personally, at this time I do not want to go on a hunt and not be able to use my own firearm. I would not rule out using a camp gun if the airlines botched it or my gun went down. However, I want the basic details of hunting 101 (gun and hunting permits) to be properly conducted.

Well put. If some of these Karl well-sayers had spent some time in a African or Mexican jail they wouldn't be NEARLY so quick to say, "Ah to Hell with it. I'll skip the paperwork and handle it when I get there."

There seems to be no dispute that, for whatever reasons, Karl had plenty of time to supply the correct papers and didn't. He also had plenty of time to assure the hunter that he had an alterantive scoped rifle available and didn't. Some might go under these circumstances with or without a rifle and some might not. Because the hunter chose not to is not a decision that carries any fault. Personally I don't blame him, am not sure what I would have done given the same circumstances.

It seems obvious to me, as has happened in here time and again, that if someone has successfully hunted with a PH, then that PH is automatically elevated to the position of junior, at least, sainthood, regardless of how egregious his future behavior might be.

I did not read all 4 pages but let me offer a couple thoughts that may have already been said...

I doubt Karl remembers me but we spoke a few times while I lived in Windhoek. He has an outstanding reputation and I wouldn't hesitate to book and hunt with him other than I have close friends in the business that I would use.

When I arived in Africa I took no guns because I was there to do missions work. I wasn't for sure how the national people would feel if I had a rifle under one arm and a Bible under the other. So after a few months I visited home and brought my rifles in at that time. I was ingnorant of the form that you fill out to declare your taking your guns out of the USA. Upon arival they wanted my "permits" which I knew nothing and said, "My state doesnt require permits." They were suposed to take my rifles and lock them up so I could apply for permits. But I smiled was polite, humble and kind and they gave me a safari permit instead of a permit for 2 years. Every six months I went to the police, smiled, was polite and kind and they always renewed. I had no problems bringing my rifles back. Was I lucky? perhaps. Help from the Lord... always. Treat people better than you want to goes a long way in Africa.

I never had problems with the exception of one guy that was looking for a $20 bill but that worked out without the bribe... although in Africa its more like a tip in some countries as I understand.

As a veteran of many trips to Africa... mostly doing the Lord's work I have discovered that love of Africa and her people goes a long way and can get you past these issues such as a day or two problem on a permit.

T.I.A. - This is Africa... is something you need to learn.

Now that I know, I will do things correctly should I ever go back for hunting. But western world it is not. The people of Africa are quite a reasonalbe lot if your approch is right.

I think Duffy you should have went anyway but that was your call.

Karl, Don't worry, I doubt this forum will ruin your business.

Anyway just some thought from my experience.

Aaron

It appears Karl's supporters saw him walk on water last week and the detractors saw him drown.

I know that for many, a rifle is just a tool. For others, like myself, my rifles are treasures and I would not book a hunt where I did not expect to use my rifle. I know things happen. Sometimes rifles don't get delivered when they are supposed to, etc. Under those circumstances, I would use a camp rifle and move on. That is an "unpreventable" event. But not providing permits in timely fashion is not in the same category by a long shot.

I just don't understand how that can be excused by so many so casually because "it's Africa."

I might have gone anyway, without my rifle, expecting to use a camp rifle, but I would have been bitterly disappointed.

GOOD:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
I guess I am not "cut out for Africa" either. I have years of experience traveling around the world. When I was a contractor for the DOS, most of my time was spent getting US citizens out of problems they created by ignoring the rules. Some of them were hunters that chose to attempt to illegally bring firearms and ammunition into the country without the proper permits. (Hey, it's a third world country, forget the rules!)That is one reason why airlines will not take firearms at times. It has little to do with politics and more to do with them being fined and receiving penalty points for transporting someone into an area without the proper documentation.

I fully understand the problems and zero sense of urgency (Latin time, Africa time, China time, etc.). However, I never move forward until we (they and I) get it right. If that means delaying the operation, fine. You back up and replan. When plan A and B goes to he//, remember you have 24 other letters. But all parties must communicate and be flexible if possible. Why do we think it is OK to do things we cannot or would not do in our own country?

Personally, at this time I do not want to go on a hunt and not be able to use my own firearm. I would not rule out using a camp gun if the airlines botched it or my gun went down. However, I want the basic details of hunting 101 (gun and hunting permits) to be properly conducted.

Well put. If some of these Karl well-sayers had spent some time in a African or Mexican jail they wouldn't be NEARLY so quick to say, "Ah to Hell with it. I'll skip the paperwork and handle it when I get there."

There seems to be no dispute that, for whatever reasons, Karl had plenty of time to supply the correct papers and didn't. He also had plenty of time to assure the hunter that he had an alterantive scoped rifle available and didn't. Some might go under these circumstances with or without a rifle and some might not. Because the hunter chose not to is not a decision that carries any fault. Personally I don't blame him, am not sure what I would have done given the same circumstances.

It seems obvious to me, as has happened in here time and again, that if someone has successfully hunted with a PH, then that PH is automatically elevated to the position of junior, at least, sainthood, regardless of how egregious his future behavior might be.

BAD:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Rust:
I did not read all 4 pages but let me offer a couple thoughts that may have already been said...

I doubt Karl remembers me but we spoke a few times while I lived in Windhoek. He has an outstanding reputation and I wouldn't hesitate to book and hunt with him other than I have close friends in the business that I would use.

When I arived in Africa I took no guns because I was there to do missions work. I wasn't for sure how the national people would feel if I had a rifle under one arm and a Bible under the other. So after a few months I visited home and brought my rifles in at that time. I was ingnorant of the form that you fill out to declare your taking your guns out of the USA. Upon arival they wanted my "permits" which I knew nothing and said, "My state doesnt require permits." They were suposed to take my rifles and lock them up so I could apply for permits. But I smiled was polite, humble and kind and they gave me a safari permit instead of a permit for 2 years. Every six months I went to the police, smiled, was polite and kind and they always renewed. I had no problems bringing my rifles back. Was I lucky? perhaps. Help from the Lord... always. Treat people better than you want to goes a long way in Africa.

I never had problems with the exception of one guy that was looking for a $20 bill but that worked out without the bribe... although in Africa its more like a tip in some countries as I understand.

As a veteran of many trips to Africa... mostly doing the Lord's work I have discovered that love of Africa and her people goes a long way and can get you past these issues such as a day or two problem on a permit.

T.I.A. - This is Africa... is something you need to learn.

Now that I know, I will do things correctly should I ever go back for hunting. But western world it is not. The people of Africa are quite a reasonalbe lot if your approch is right.

I think Duffy you should have went anyway but that was your call.

Karl, Don't worry, I doubt this forum will ruin your business.

Anyway just some thought from my experience.

Aaron

UGLY:

This easily avoidable train wreck caused by PH
driving the locomotive.


FUNNY:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
It appears Karl's supporters saw him walk on water last week and the detractors saw him drown.

If I had $5 for everytime I rescued/recovered "good Christians" that thought doing God's work gave them a waiver to do whatever the he// they wanted in a foreign country I could book me a 30 day luxury safari.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:



FUNNY:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
It appears Karl's supporters saw him walk on water last week and the detractors saw him drown.

That is pretty funny!!

All coins have two sides,and if you don't know what is being tossed you don't know if the toss is honest! I'll wait to see both sides of this one!

........................................................................

I agree with the Judge's assessment. However, I am biased. I know Karl; trust him; and would not hesitate to book a safari with him.

I've hunted with Karl, and would do so again.

Dave

Heym 450/400
I did not say anything in MY post that Karl was to beat anybody.
Don't let your aggresions over run you.
KARL is a big teddy bear even thought he can kill leopards with his bear hands protecting his clients.
Larry

Elk88101

Were did I state that you said anything. A confrontation was implied in a number of posts on this thread. So now that I have had a chance to read your original post what exactly are you going to take notes on during this "meeting"?

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
Heym 450/400
I did not say anything in MY post that Karl was to beat anybody.
Don't let your aggresions over run you.
KARL is a big teddy bear even thought he can kill leopards with his bear hands protecting his clients.
Larry

Leopards, not lions although he probably hasn't had the chance to strangle a lion to death yet.

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
If I had $5 for everytime I rescued/recovered "good Christians" that thought doing God's work gave them a waiver to do whatever the he// they wanted in a foreign country I could book me a 30 day luxury safari.

If that is what you heard me say, I wasn't clear enough. For sure there are those that think they can do what they want because they were involved in mission. However I believe I said I did some dumb things out of ignorance that a good attitude and not so commmon sense got me through. And that the Africa's people had a lot of common sense when it came to issues like permits etc.

Now I have no dog in this fight. It sounds as though you just hate Christ or his followers. I guess that is something to work through.

Aaron

One element of this discussion reminds me of the times I have seen PHs criticize hunters for showing up with a rifle they've never shot...

Aaron:

I do not read the comments the same way you do . I think all
The former ranger is saying is that some are ignorant enough to believe that because they are Christian and American, they will be ok. The reality of it is that this makes one a target in many parts of the world.

Look at those idiots that got locked in Iran while they were hiking. How about the American Christian aid worker kidnapped in Afghanistan. I would not have been involved in either regardless of my beliefs.

I did not read this as anti-Christian at all. Anti-idiot perhaps.

Larry... the problem with email and text is no inflection on the language. I'm not offended, infact I have elephant hide. If I misunderstood and sounded like I was fighting mad... Im not. I took it anti-christian... There were some idiot missionaires with guns in DRC a few years ago that went to jail. I myself have done dumb ingnorate things which i stated. Not harm not foul.

Aaron

Although some of the posts on this forum think that this is all over a simple mistake on a permit, I do not see it that way. If it was, then I would not be going to the lengths that I am going to, and nothing would be heard of it. The problem would have been resolved. To me it is about something else.

I asked that the permit be done well in advance so that all the paper work would be correct. I could then look forward to the hunt knowing everything was on track. I reminded Karl to lodge the paperwork. Why didn't Karl act on my reasonable request? Is there an underlying attitude?

The Application for the permit was lodged by Karl on 12 June and came back 15 June. When he sent it to me, I was relieved because I then had everything. I checked it, and found the error with the dates, and then I informed him. I would expect most professional people would say sorry about that, I will fix it. Instead it was "I will sort the permit out on Monday." To me this indicates a certain attitude.

With the overseas draft, Karl decided a long time after he had received it that he wanted an electronic transfer instead. Once he sent me his bank details, I transferred the funds immediately. However there was never any mention of reimbursement for the cost of the draft, the exchange losses on conversion, the cost of cancelling the draft or the exchange losses on re-conversion. There was no mention of the hassle of having to make a trip to the bank, attend to the posting of the draft, and then go back to the bank when he wanted me to cancel the draft and fill out the required paperwork. There was no acknowledgement of the hassle he had caused me just on this draft, and certainly no comment about him reimbursing me the costs. Again, is there some underlying attitude?

When Karl did obtain the second permit which had (in transit from Zimbabwe, instead of in transit from South Africa on it) in the days just prior to my flight, he had problems sending it. When he couldn't send it and ultimately I didn't board my flight, was there ever any apology and acknowledgement that he had stuffed-up and caused me significant problems? As far as he was concerned, he tried to send it just prior to my day of departure and he couldn't.....not his fault. Again, some underlying attitude?

If you have followed all the posts on this topic, Karl tried to shift the blame onto me for the second permit not getting through. According to Karl, it was my spyware that was to blame...even though the first permit came through when he sent it, and the second permit came through after my flight departed. I didn't change my computer software during that time. It wasn't because right from the start he had failed to follow my reasonable request to allow a reasonable time to lodge the permits, in case something went wrong. Again, is there an underlying attitude?

Karl asked me to phone him, more than 24 hours after my flight had departed. There was no acknowledgement of any error that Karl had made, no apology. He said he didn't want to argue about it. I informed him about my costs such as non-refundable air fares, injections and malaria tablets for the trip, expenses of lodging documents for the trip and the deposit that I had paid him. In a reasonable voice I said that I wanted reimbursement for those expenses. He raised his voice considerably and said that he was not paying me anything. He terminated the call abruptly at that point. Again, is there some underlying attitude?

Even on subsequent discussions with him, instead of entering negotiations in good faith, his offer to me was that I can come again provided I pay in addition to the normal costs, a premium to cover his costs of the hunt that didn't take place. Again, is there an underlying attitude?

Karl has since stated that he will not correspond with me again. Again, what sort of attitude is this?

So to me this whole thing is not really about a simple mistake on a permit. I know that there will be some people out there who think that it is wrong of me to be (in their view, but I disagree) "Mr Perfect" and that Africa is different so I should just accept things. I see the situation as I am contracting with an educated professional person and paying a substantial amount of money in the process. If that professional person stuffs up and I suffer a financial loss because of his mistakes or attitude, then I should be reimbursed.

I am happy to settle if Karl is willing to settle and move on from this.

Duff,

OK, i was sympathetic when you first posted. But I have to admit, you lost me with your "what if" post.

Try this on for size - what if you got on the plane, and had the hunt of your life?

After reading all your whines, err posts, you should take the suggestions and find yourself a nice "estate" whitetail hunt.

Sorry you missed out, but get over it.

Jack D Bold,

Nothing wrong with a good whitetail hunt. Can you suggest a good outfitter for a free-range fair chase whitetail hunt?

Other Areas of Complaint about Karl Stumpfe
I originally stated that I would fly from Australia to Windhoek in Namibia for the hunt. The only viable route was via Johannesburg. However, as South African Airlines flies to Windhoek via Johannesburg from Australia, I would not require an Intransit visa in South Africa. I would also not require an Intransit permit in Botswana. However, Karl Stumpfe stated that I should fly to Kasane in Botswana as it was closer to the Caprivi hunting area in Namibia. This therefore meant that I needed both a South African Intransit permit and a Botswana Intransit permit for my rifles. I believe Karl Stumpfe was negligent in giving me that advice, and ultimately, I was not able to fly with my rifle.


The above indeed was very bad advice. You went from one easy to obtain gun permit upon arrival in Namibia to three permits from three different countries, two of which you weren't even hunting in. More permits, more chances for things to get screwed up. I am reminded of the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid). I was fairly unsympathetic to you until I read that section, but can see your point. I don't think you will get a refund, but you have effectively made your point about Mr. Stumpfe.

I have had similar cock ups and have also lost time and money because of Africa. I would chalk it up to experience and move on.

Just for the record, I have never gotten my rifle permits ahead of time. A total of 10 hunts now in 4 countries and no REAL problems. Sometimes a few hours delay. Occasionally a little persuasive greasing of the rails but it all works out. Even if it didnt, I would still be hunting with a borrowed gun. Obviously there were screw ups on both sides here. A lot of over reaction and unreasonable attitudes as well if I may say so. You gents need to work this out and if you cant get a mediator. All that is happening here is we are trying to put out the fire with gasoline!

Fujo's comment about lawyers is well taken. There are at least three lawyers who have posted on this thread, probably more. These include Judge G, Will and yours truly. I note that none of the known lawyers, nor anyone I don't recognize as a lawyer, have expressed any interest in taking Mr. Duffy's case. That says a lot. The Judge's comments are spot on, by the way.

Paul, your comment is so true: "I guess that's why in Africa they have "Now", "Just Now", and "Now Now." My wife shares that same sentiment and "Now Now" means when she gets around to it.

If you think that there is no :

1. Legal requirement to reimburse a client for losses he sustains through mistakes made by a PH
2. Moral obligation to reimburse a client for losses he sustains through mistakes made by a PH.

then that is sending a clear message to any hunter who considers engaging a PH on a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Fujo's comment about lawyers is well taken. There are at least three lawyers who have posted on this thread, probably more. These include Judge G, Will and yours truly. I note that none of the known lawyers, nor anyone I don't recognize as a lawyer, have expressed any interest in taking Mr. Duffy's case. That says a lot.

Not really. I'm pretty sure no lawyers frequent this site to dispense legal advice or pick up clients. If so, damn, times are tough.

That said, this thread exhausted its usefulness long ago.

David,

Calm down man! Take a deep breath. Some introspection would probably be too much to ask. But maybe something closer to home would suit you better. Just a thought.

Tiger,

I don't come here looking for cases and if I saw one, I wouldn't try to sign it up. (I do defense work for the most part anyway). That said, if someone had a legitmate legal grievance, I would recommend that they seek counsel. I have not done so in this case.

I appreciate the report. I like to hear the good and the bad and make a decision on my own after doing my own research.

I can say that if all the I's were not dotted and T's crossed that I would have not gone either. I do absolutely everything before hand that can be done and I expect the same in return.

I do think the thoughts on having to have just my rifle are a little extreme. I went on my first trip to RSA last year and arrived in Joburg without rifles and luggage for me or my partner. We continued on and I was able to borrow the owner's Sako 30.06 that I had never seen or touched before but you can bet I was not going to sit around given the choice. My PH told me we can sit here and pout or go hunting. So for 8 days of a 10 day safari I used the owner's rifle and wore levi's; Dr Marten shoes and an Eddie Bauer shirt and in the end it was the best trip I have ever been on.

I can understand your want to recover the 4k but even mentioning the cost at the range and stuff is just insignificant. I hope we all spend time at the range trying to improve our skills.

I run a company so I am very well aware their are two sides to every story but I also know that David can make his complaint or concerns but I hold the PH and Outfitters to a higher standard and I am very disappointed by Karl's responses. I think he should take the higher ground in his responses.

David, you and Karl both need to be reasonable. Give it some time to cool down and sit back and analyze the situation and make the best of it. Bad decisions are made when emotions are high. Take out the emotion and get it done.

I personally think contracts written by two parties are different countries are not worth the paper they are written on. The logistics and stuff don't make that realistic. Trust me; I had a hunt that in hindsight would have been better had I never gone and in the end we both agreed to disagree and he thought he should be paid more and I thought I should get money back and we both ended up not getting what we wanted. It is what it is.

Good luck and try and come up with a reasonable resolution so the mud slinging can end.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Tiger,

I don't come here looking for cases and if I saw one, I wouldn't try to sign it up. (I do defense work for the most part anyway). That said, if someone had a legitmate legal grievance, I would recommend that they seek counsel. I have not done so in this case.

Lavaca - sorry, I wasn't implying that you were trolling for business. Just that even if someone was 100% in the right in this matter (which isn't the case), the silence of counsel means nothing at all

To put things in perspective, no lawyer suggested Karl maintain a libel suit against Duffy. I guess that means Karl is in the wrong? See how easy that was ....

Looks Karl screwed up some permits he shouldn't have, and Duffy probably overreacted. No need to argue this one to the Supreme Court.

Agreed that this has become overblown.

quote:

David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

I really like this one!

So, only certain people are cut out to "Hunt" Africa? is that list populated only by folks willing to kiss a PH's arse?

Maybe some type of test should be developed and anyone not meeting the expert criteria (?) of who should or should not attempt to book a hunt in Africa should be tiurned away as some lesser form of human being.

Oh yes, I can see the safari industry promoting something like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

I really like this one!

So, only certain people are cut out to "Hunt" Africa? is that list populated only by folks willing to kiss a PH's arse?

Maybe some type of test should be developed and anyone not meeting the expert criteria (?) of who should or should not attempt to book a hunt in Africa should be tiurned away as some lesser form of human being.

Oh yes, I can see the safari industry promoting something like that.

I'm glad I'm not the one that said that original quote, but I understand what he was saying. It wasn't meant as an elitist statement, rather that if you are the type of person that has to have everything perfect to have a good time, Africa will probably be frustrating for you as things can and do go wrong all the time and a certain amount of "going with the flow" is required. CH, I know you want to run with this but I think you realize that it's being taken out of context.

Here's a couple of examples. Back in 07, I convinced my former business partner that we should take our sons on a PG hunt to RSA. In Atlanta, waiting on the connecting flight to JoBerg, the first signs of trouble showed up. He refused to get on the plane unless the agent verified to him that his bags and rifles were on board. I always ask, but would never refuse to get on the jet because the agent doesn't know! My son and I boarded and got settled in. He and his son boarded right at the last minute, just before closing the door and was mad at me for not standing ground with him! Holy Crap, this is going to be fun.

On day two, his PH tells him to shoot a Waterbuck they run across. It wasn't on his list so he was pissed after he shot it. That it scored a very High Gold Medal mattered not. That the outfitter was willing to subtract another animal from his list to offset the cost, mattered not. (He also didn't know the difference between an Impala and a Zebra, so the species wasn't the issue). The issue was that it varied from "The Plan".

The last straw was on day 4 while stalking up to a waterhole around noon, he asked the PH what they were hunting for. The PH responded that they were hunting and currently stalking up to the water to see what was hanging around. My old buddy became furious, stating that they were to be hunting Zebra and if they weren't hunting Zebra and only Zebra, because it was on his list, that he and his son were returning to the truck. They returned to the truck without ever seeing the waterhole.

After that, the PH developed a debilitating tooth ache and I never saw him again until the day we left. The camp manager drove them around for the next 3 days and they didn't shoot another animal. Clearly, my old friend was "Not cut out to hunt Africa" and that is not an elitist statement. Just a statement that he was wound too tight to relax and enjoy one of life's greatest pleasures.

I failed to mention that he and his son were not present at a single campfire during the entire week. They were both too involved with rearranging their gear, unpacking their bags, putting their clothes into the drawers, then back into the bags, then back into the drawers, etc., every evening. They would have to be called to dinner from repacking, then as soon as dinner was over, went right back to rearranging their gear.

AS a matter of fact, I'm not cut out to hunt Africa with him again!!

CHC - That notion kinda got to me also. It would be interesting and really helpful if some here would list ALL the things necessary for a person to be "cut out for hunting Africa". That should make quite a list for discussion.

Well maybe not, I might not make the grade and have to sit at home from now on or just hunt around here in New Mexico. Uh, New Mexico is rather large so might have to cut it down even more?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

I really like this one!

So, only certain people are cut out to "Hunt" Africa? is that list populated only by folks willing to kiss a PH's arse?

Maybe some type of test should be developed and anyone not meeting the expert criteria (?) of who should or should not attempt to book a hunt in Africa should be tiurned away as some lesser form of human being.

Oh yes, I can see the safari industry promoting something like that.

It might be very helpful if someone posts what the requirements are for one to be " cut out for African hunting".


For an individual to be able to do something, he certainly has to be able to meet certain requirements.

My thought for someone to meet the requiremnts to be "cut out for Africa" are very simple.

1. Is able to pay for his hunt.

2. Is able to shoot (not necessarily very well)

3. Post his hunt report here after he is back (hopefully after having had a good safari. But a negative report of all the problems encountered is acceptable too).