quote:

There is a huge difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law

Apparently one of the requirements "to be cut out for Africa" is to not be concerned about the law and be ready to bribe away (which is illegal, at least in TZ)

You know, people complain that lawyers are too legalistic and grasping. In my experience, it is often the clients that have unrealistic expectations.

For goodness sake, this is Africa. How much precision can you expect? I've seen glowing hunt reports of experiences with Karl Stumpfe as well as the negative Tim Herald account. Long ago, I learned that my most productive value to my clients as a cross-border lawyer is my ability to put myself in the other guy's shoes and stay flexible.

I am not in a position to judge who has the better argument here, but based on the claims made, my guess is that the complaining may be an overreaction. I personally would not have cancelled -- and I certainly would not be expecting this level of compensation. Can anyone imagine a PH's responding favorably to demands like these?

quote:

Originally posted by David Duffy:

When I checked my emails early Monday the 2 July (2 days after my flight), Karl Stumpfe had sent the new permit (which was still wrong because it had Intransit from Zimbabwe on it) and another email stating that there was someone waiting for me at Kasane with the Botswana Intransit permit in his hand. He requested that I phone him as soon as possible, which I did. When I discussed how I had to abandon my hunt because of his negligence and he asked what do I want to do, I said I wanted compensation for my direct costs. I said I would forego compensation for all the inconvenience and loss of my hunt provided he compensates me for my costs. I explained that my airfares were $2200, my injections and malaria tablets were $220, costs of lodging documents for the hunt $50, losses on the cancelled overseas draft $200 and $2125 deposit to him. These costs total $4795. Karl Stumpfe shouted that he was not paying me anything and slammed down the phone. This sort of behaviour by Karl Stumpfe is hardly what I would expect from a Professional Hunter in Africa, especially when he asked me to phone him.


Regards
David Duffy

To me one is not cut out to hunt Africa if problems encountered along the way greatly and negatively affects your enjoyment of the hunt. In my safaris, several problems have occurred such as my Air Zim flight being canceled because they went on strike and on two occasions my rifles not making it to Zim through Joberg. Other problems have also occurred. If you can't go with the flow and put up with some frustrating but minor problems then maybe you better stay home. But major problems such as the animals that you book for not being available are another matter.

465H&H

quote:

I know you want to run with this

Todd, if you will quit being so condescending it will help. I don't want to run with anything.

The point I made was simply that there is a constant underlying tone when subjects such as this rears its ugly head, that only people of a certain stripe should consider going to Africa and others should not try it.

The glaring part of it is, it is NEVER a PH or Outfitter?Booking agent saying that. It is always someone that has been on a safari or few safaris and coming back an expert on the whole business.

As mac referred to in one response every coin has two sides. In reality it has three, heads/tails and the edge and sometimes and I have seen it, a coin will land on its edge and can fall either way.

I have nothing to run with, as you put it, just an observation or two. not all PH's are gods/not all clients are devils. Over the time I have been on the site this PH gets consistently good marks. That don't mean however he can't make a mistake, such as not being able to accurately read a client.

He is used to a lot of re-peat business or it seems that way from the reports I have read over the years. When anyone gets re-peat customers and referral customers from long time clients, things become routine in setting everything up. Along comes a client that is doing a "First hunt" and is more detail oriented, perhaps to the point of being anal, and that is not meant as an insult to this client, it is just a fact of life. I see it happening in all kinds of businesses and on both sides of the coin, not just the edge.

When one of the detail oriented/somewhat anal individuals runs into one of the more laid-back, "An Emergency On Your Part Does Not Neccessarily Create One On My Part', things just do not go well.

From what I am reading from the better responses, there was a total breakdown in communications and more than just a little anxiety on the part of the client.

The client seems to be used to having instant communication in business dealings and is probably extremely organised in his life and actions. The Ph, having had years of experience was just going about his business as usual and had the client just chilled out a little bit, thi conversation would probably not have taken place.

I think both parties involved need to share responsibility for what happened come to some form of settlement and move on.

As far the comment that basically states only certain people are fit to attempt a hunt in Africa, I stand by by original remark, that sentiment is NOT shared by the folks doing business in Africa or anywhere else for that matter.

Now, you can run with that!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To me one is not cut out to hunt Africa if problems encountered along the way greatly and negatively affects your enjoyment of the hunt. In my safaris, several problems have occurred such as my Air Zim flight being canceled because they went on strike and on two occasions my rifles not making it to Zim through Joberg. Other problems have also occurred. If you can't go with the flow and put up with some frustrating but minor problems then maybe you better stay home. But major problems such as the animals that you book for not being available are another matter.

465H&H

I think there is a difference between problems that are unavoidable - as mentioned above.

But, having your PH messing up your gun import license is nothing short of utter negligence.

We got to the Seacliff Hotel in Dar after our safari, as our flight was late in the evening.

We met an AR member staying there because the outfitter he has booked with did not have his rifle license ready, so he had to leave it at the airport until it got sorted out.

To me, this a definite reason to avoid that outfitter.

There are far too many very good outfitters who have never had a negative report against them. I will give those my business.

No one here knows me, but I have proved over and over again, that I can reasonably "go with the flow." In addition to a lot of hunting in the U. S., I've hunted on 13 different occasions in Scotland, once in Germany, and once in Kyrgyzstan. Not everything went exactly as it was supposed to on all those occasions, and I never pitched a fit -- I just said it is what it is. I understand that "things happen." Beyond that, I've done a fair bit of non-hunting international travel, including so-called third world countries. I've spent a couple of weeks in Malawi and also in Senegal. I've been to China on two separate two-week trips. There have often been "surprises." I enjoyed all of those trips immensely.

But if someone is telling me I ought to accept going to Africa to hunt without the proper permits for my rifles, when the arrangements were started well in advance, then I guess I truly am not, "cut out to hunt in Africa."

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

I really like this one!

So, only certain people are cut out to "Hunt" Africa? is that list populated only by folks willing to kiss a PH's arse?

Maybe some type of test should be developed and anyone not meeting the expert criteria (?) of who should or should not attempt to book a hunt in Africa should be tiurned away as some lesser form of human being.

Oh yes, I can see the safari industry promoting something like that.

I'm glad I'm not the one that said that original quote, but I understand what he was saying. It wasn't meant as an elitist statement, rather that if you are the type of person that has to have everything perfect to have a good time, Africa will probably be frustrating for you as things can and do go wrong all the time and a certain amount of "going with the flow" is required. CH, I know you want to run with this but I think you realize that it's being taken out of context.

Here's a couple of examples. Back in 07, I convinced my former business partner that we should take our sons on a PG hunt to RSA. In Atlanta, waiting on the connecting flight to JoBerg, the first signs of trouble showed up. He refused to get on the plane unless the agent verified to him that his bags and rifles were on board. I always ask, but would never refuse to get on the jet because the agent doesn't know! My son and I boarded and got settled in. He and his son boarded right at the last minute, just before closing the door and was mad at me for not standing ground with him! Holy Crap, this is going to be fun.

On day two, his PH tells him to shoot a Waterbuck they run across. It wasn't on his list so he was pissed after he shot it. That it scored a very High Gold Medal mattered not. That the outfitter was willing to subtract another animal from his list to offset the cost, mattered not. (He also didn't know the difference between an Impala and a Zebra, so the species wasn't the issue). The issue was that it varied from "The Plan".

The last straw was on day 4 while stalking up to a waterhole around noon, he asked the PH what they were hunting for. The PH responded that they were hunting and currently stalking up to the water to see what was hanging around. My old buddy became furious, stating that they were to be hunting Zebra and if they weren't hunting Zebra and only Zebra, because it was on his list, that he and his son were returning to the truck. They returned to the truck without ever seeing the waterhole.

After that, the PH developed a debilitating tooth ache and I never saw him again until the day we left. The camp manager drove them around for the next 3 days and they didn't shoot another animal. Clearly, my old friend was "Not cut out to hunt Africa" and that is not an elitist statement. Just a statement that he was wound too tight to relax and enjoy one of life's greatest pleasures.

I failed to mention that he and his son were not present at a single campfire during the entire week. They were both too involved with rearranging their gear, unpacking their bags, putting their clothes into the drawers, then back into the bags, then back into the drawers, etc., every evening. They would have to be called to dinner from repacking, then as soon as dinner was over, went right back to rearranging their gear.

AS a matter of fact, I'm not cut out to hunt Africa with him again!!

I can't believe this behavior did not become clear long before you boarded the flight Sounds like he is not cut out for life.......

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.

I really like this one!

So, only certain people are cut out to "Hunt" Africa? is that list populated only by folks willing to kiss a PH's arse?

Maybe some type of test should be developed and anyone not meeting the expert criteria (?) of who should or should not attempt to book a hunt in Africa should be tiurned away as some lesser form of human being.

Oh yes, I can see the safari industry promoting something like that.

I'm glad I'm not the one that said that original quote, but I understand what he was saying. It wasn't meant as an elitist statement, rather that if you are the type of person that has to have everything perfect to have a good time, Africa will probably be frustrating for you as things can and do go wrong all the time and a certain amount of "going with the flow" is required. CH, I know you want to run with this but I think you realize that it's being taken out of context.

Here's a couple of examples. Back in 07, I convinced my former business partner that we should take our sons on a PG hunt to RSA. In Atlanta, waiting on the connecting flight to JoBerg, the first signs of trouble showed up. He refused to get on the plane unless the agent verified to him that his bags and rifles were on board. I always ask, but would never refuse to get on the jet because the agent doesn't know! My son and I boarded and got settled in. He and his son boarded right at the last minute, just before closing the door and was mad at me for not standing ground with him! Holy Crap, this is going to be fun.

On day two, his PH tells him to shoot a Waterbuck they run across. It wasn't on his list so he was pissed after he shot it. That it scored a very High Gold Medal mattered not. That the outfitter was willing to subtract another animal from his list to offset the cost, mattered not. (He also didn't know the difference between an Impala and a Zebra, so the species wasn't the issue). The issue was that it varied from "The Plan".

The last straw was on day 4 while stalking up to a waterhole around noon, he asked the PH what they were hunting for. The PH responded that they were hunting and currently stalking up to the water to see what was hanging around. My old buddy became furious, stating that they were to be hunting Zebra and if they weren't hunting Zebra and only Zebra, because it was on his list, that he and his son were returning to the truck. They returned to the truck without ever seeing the waterhole.

After that, the PH developed a debilitating tooth ache and I never saw him again until the day we left. The camp manager drove them around for the next 3 days and they didn't shoot another animal. Clearly, my old friend was "Not cut out to hunt Africa" and that is not an elitist statement. Just a statement that he was wound too tight to relax and enjoy one of life's greatest pleasures.

I failed to mention that he and his son were not present at a single campfire during the entire week. They were both too involved with rearranging their gear, unpacking their bags, putting their clothes into the drawers, then back into the bags, then back into the drawers, etc., every evening. They would have to be called to dinner from repacking, then as soon as dinner was over, went right back to rearranging their gear.

AS a matter of fact, I'm not cut out to hunt Africa with him again!!

I can't believe this behavior did not become clear long before you boarded the flight Sounds like he is not cut out for life.......

Yea Jim, some of it was evident but never to the extreme until this trip. You'll notice I did say he is a "Former" business partner.

Some folks really are wound too tight to have fun on Safari in Africa. That's not an elitist statement any more than saying a person who is afraid of heights is not suited to hunt sheep or goats in the mountains! Africa involves rolling with the flow and sheep hunting involves steep cliffs and dangerous rock faces. But because African hunting is expensive (as if sheep hunting isn't ), the "Not cut out for African Hunting" statement is easily taken out of context to mean something that was not intended. Some who like attention and controversy will run with that message, knowing full well it's not what was meant.

I also stated that I think Karl should have handled the permits or at least communication better. All that said, with Duffy's "what if" post, I'm thinking he may be a bit too high strung to enjoy the ups and downs of Safari. I really don't see that there is anything here to settle between the two parties. Both have suffered a loss. Both have some blame. Chalk it up and move on.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To me one is not cut out to hunt Africa if problems encountered along the way greatly and negatively affects your enjoyment of the hunt. In my safaris, several problems have occurred such as my Air Zim flight being canceled because they went on strike and on two occasions my rifles not making it to Zim through Joberg. Other problems have also occurred. If you can't go with the flow and put up with some frustrating but minor problems then maybe you better stay home. But major problems such as the animals that you book for not being available are another matter.

465H&H

I think there is a difference between problems that are unavoidable - as mentioned above.

But, having your PH messing up your gun import license is nothing short of utter negligence.

We got to the Seacliff Hotel in Dar after our safari, as our flight was late in the evening.

We met an AR member staying there because the outfitter he has booked with did not have his rifle license ready, so he had to leave it at the airport until it got sorted out.

To me, this a definite reason to avoid that outfitter.

There are far too many very good outfitters who have never had a negative report against them. I will give those my business.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To me one is not cut out to hunt Africa if problems encountered along the way greatly and negatively affects your enjoyment of the hunt. In my safaris, several problems have occurred such as my Air Zim flight being canceled because they went on strike and on two occasions my rifles not making it to Zim through Joberg. Other problems have also occurred. If you can't go with the flow and put up with some frustrating but minor problems then maybe you better stay home. But major problems such as the animals that you book for not being available are another matter.

465H&H

I think there is a difference between problems that are unavoidable - as mentioned above.

But, having your PH messing up your gun import license is nothing short of utter negligence.

We got to the Seacliff Hotel in Dar after our safari, as our flight was late in the evening.

We met an AR member staying there because the outfitter he has booked with did not have his rifle license ready, so he had to leave it at the airport until it got sorted out.

To me, this a definite reason to avoid that outfitter.

There are far too many very good outfitters who have never had a negative report against them. I will give those my business.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My thoughts exactly. To borrow on the vein of Todd W., if you can't get something as simple as a gun permit correct, what else is that telling you?

As for this "high string" not cut out for Africa stuff, a good booking agent/outfitter/PH can see what is important to a client, what he might be apprehensive about, and takes steps to address these issues. I don't see Karl having that skillset.

I read a hunt report a few months back where a guy payed a bribe for shooting a buffalo and was hung by the internet jury. Now I am reading about guys expecting to paying bribes for gun permits. Who makes the rules around here.

quote:

Some who like attention and controversy will run with that message, knowing full well it's not what was meant.

Good words to live by Todd, you might want to take them to heart.

Any Guided Hunting trip is a major undertaking for anyone, an African Safari is no different, it is a Guided Hunting trip just with a lot more planning and logistics involved, but still a Guided Hunting trip.

In this case a detail oriented client was trying to set up a hunt with a good, experienced PH that for whatever reason was not as communacative with the client as the client wanted him to be.

Anyone that hunts anywhere long enough learns that things do not operate on as finely honed a schedule as a normal day at the office. In fact from my experiences about the only that ever is on schedule is breakfast, apart from that everyone has to learn patience and flexability.

In this case both parties seem to have somewhat reached a shut down point, communications went to hell and the hunt got canceled. That does not mean someone is not ready to hunt Africa, it simply means they have to talk to other PH's and find one that communicates with this individual better.

The permit issue is a big concern. I do not think anyone can honestly say that they did not experience more than just a few concerns whern arranging their first safari.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To me one is not cut out to hunt Africa if problems encountered along the way greatly and negatively affects your enjoyment of the hunt. In my safaris, several problems have occurred such as my Air Zim flight being canceled because they went on strike and on two occasions my rifles not making it to Zim through Joberg. Other problems have also occurred. If you can't go with the flow and put up with some frustrating but minor problems then maybe you better stay home. But major problems such as the animals that you book for not being available are another matter.

465H&H

I think there is a difference between problems that are unavoidable - as mentioned above.

But, having your PH messing up your gun import license is nothing short of utter negligence.

We got to the Seacliff Hotel in Dar after our safari, as our flight was late in the evening.

We met an AR member staying there because the outfitter he has booked with did not have his rifle license ready, so he had to leave it at the airport until it got sorted out.

To me, this a definite reason to avoid that outfitter.

There are far too many very good outfitters who have never had a negative report against them. I will give those my business.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My thoughts exactly. To borrow on the vein of Todd W., if you can't get something as simple as a gun permit correct, what else is that telling you?

As for this "high string" not cut out for Africa stuff, a good booking agent/outfitter/PH can see what is important to a client, what he might be apprehensive about, and takes steps to address these issues. I don't see Karl having that skillset.

Well said by all...

I'm going on an elephant hunt next May with Karl, & having met him at Dallas, I'm confident that I'll have a great time. That being said, things sometimes happen & that will always be the case. The worst problem I've personally ever had was that my rifle was confiscated at the airport in Sydney, Australia because the permit wasn't properly signed; it took a couple of days to iron out, & was the fault of the PH's wife for not catching it. However, things were fixed & I consider that hunt possibly my best adventure. Things happen, people aren't perfect, and I'm sure Karl would attest to that, but you don't quit because issues arise ........ JMHO.

From reading this and previous less than ideal hunts involving Karl, I come to the following conclusions:
1)Karl, given the right circumstances, can be an excellent PH, if you have his full attention.
2)Most of Karl’s business is comprised of repeat hunters and sometimes hunters using Karl for the first time can have problems (possibly due to Karl’s schedule with the new hunter being “interfered with” due to repeat hunter’s needs that are more important in Karl’s mind even if the repeat hunters were booked at a later date than the new hunter).
3)Karl has problems with timing and logistics.
4)Karl is usually but not always dependable.
5)Karl is very reluctant to accept any blame and therefore problems must be someone else’s fault.
6)Karl is not a very good business man.
7)I cannot imagine a PH getting to an internet argument with a TV personality. What was he thinking? Very bad judgment.
8)There are too many good PH’s to take a chance with one that has had multiple problems with clients.
9)If you are booking a first safari, definitely do not book with Karl.

Frank Bellar,

You stated that your rifles were seized at the airport because of incorrect documentation and it took a couple of days to sort it out.

Applying that scenario to my situation, I get to Johannesburg airport in South Africa (not in Botswana where unbeknown to me, in the public area, the guide has a permit in his hand possibly well away from the security customs area), my rifles are confiscated because I don't have the stated accepting country (Botswana permit) documentation. I miss my connecting flight, even though I have allowed reasonable time to clear customs in Johannesburg if my documentation was in order. That requires me to get overnight accommodation in Johannesburg and also try to book the next flight to Kasane (which leaves the same time the next day). I only have Karl's contact number which I have previously used. Prior to my flight, I had trouble trying to contact him. However, I need to contact him to inform him to inform the PH who is meeting me that I expect to arrive in Kasane the next day at the same time. Anyway, as in Frank Bellar's situation, it takes a couple of days to sort out the mess. So I book a second night in a Johannesburg hotel, and go through the whole process again of cancelling and re-booking the flight to Kasane again the following second day, trying to contact Karl and him trying to contact the PH in Kasane to say I should be there the following day. Even if from there everything goes ok, and I do ultimately get my rifle after a couple of days, I have 5 days to get kudu, hyena and warthog. From what Karl has stated previously in our discussions, my chances of getting hyena in the remaining time after trying to get a good bull kudu is slim. Alternatively, when I can't get my rifle cleared through customs at Johannesburg, I sacrifice it (worth $2000) and go onto Botswana without my rifle in the hope of borrowing a suitable rifle in camp having no knowledge of whether there is one in camp (as I previously requested an assurance that there would be one and didn't get it), which could take a couple of days to get. On my flight back to Johannesburg, I still haven't got an intransit permit in South Africa, so it is questionable whether I can get my rifle from seizure and bring it back home.

Now I know that there are some who are reading this thinking we should move on from this topic (and to a certain extent I agree), but I think that I have the right to reply to Frank's post. Also, there are those who don't like hypotheticals, but all I am doing is applying Frank Bellar's real scenario to mine.

Yeh, I should have just gone and had a wonderful time (especially in Johannesburg) and then I would have suddenly become "cut out for Africa".

David: I had another bad experience on my first trip to Africa years ago. When I arrived in camp in the Eastern Cape of South Africa, I had no gear except my rifle - no ammo, no clothes, nothing except the clothes on my back & a rifle. I never recovered anything; I lost forever $2200. worth of gear & only got compensated $600. from the airline. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you can to work this out with Karl, my point is only that I didn't give up on international hunting just because unpleasant issues crop up.
Also, one lesson that I've learned is to use one of the available services that take care of preparing your rifle permits; it costs a couple hundred dollars, but it saves a lot of headaches. Good luck with your problems - I hope something can be salvaged concerning your hunt.

Frank,

On my first trip to Africa, my CZ 450 Rigby didn't arrive on the day I arrived. It arrived 24 hours later. I also didn't get to go to where we originally agreed. However, it was all sorted out and I shot my cape buffalo with one shot. However, I'm not cut out for Africa.

quote:

Some who like attention and controversy will run with that message, knowing full well it's not what was meant.

Yep. Very well said.

Antlers,

Now I'm sure you are not an elitist, being from the Double Rifle Society and owning a Heym 450/400 3" (and advertising the fact), but if my rifle arrives after 24 hours, we don't go to where originally agreed, but we manage to sort it out and I shoot a cape buffalo - thereby implying that I can deal with the African idiosyncrasies when things don't go to plan and still have a good time, yet I'm still not cut out for Africa, what does being cut out for Africa mean?

It really is time to move on.

quote:

Yea Jim, some of it was evident but never to the extreme until this trip. You'll notice I did say he is a "Former" business partner.

Sounds like things have worked out for the best

I think Saeed has it right on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by David Duffy:
Antlers,

Now I'm sure you are not an elitist, being from the Double Rifle Society and owning a Heym 450/400 3" (and advertising the fact), but if my rifle arrives after 24 hours, we don't go to where originally agreed, but we manage to sort it out and I shoot a cape buffalo - thereby implying that I can deal with the African idiosyncrasies when things don't go to plan and still have a good time, yet I'm still not cut out for Africa, what does being cut out for Africa mean?

It really is time to move on.

I'm more or less on your side, but between your unending hypotheticals, and your complete inability to understand what the above post you quoted is referring to (hint: it had basically nothing to do with any of your posts), perhaps you really are not cut out for Africa or anywhere else where your hand isn't being held the whole time. Damn, what if I'm driving to the airport, the ground opens up, and caused my gun case with rifle to fall into oblivion, should I cancel? What if I only lost my specially reloaded ammo? What if I died, do my heirs get a refund? What if....what if.....Geesh.

Gatogordo,

I am well aware that the quotation by Antlers of Todd's comment may have not been referring to my immediate previous post. However, it is very arguable that it was referring to my post, and could easily be read that way. So I was aware there was ambiguity. If Antlers post was not referring to my post, I withdraw my comment and offer an apology. Please note as explained in earlier posts, that I knew full well that when I made posts on the internet, I knew to be prepared to get some derogatory personal attacks. Some of those personal attacks I have countered, some I have ignored.

Why do people pay a substantial fee to watch full contact fighters kick the shit out of each other on television when they can read this for free?

Please, let the games continue......

Cal

Cal,

You might be able to help me on this one. Do you think being cut out for Africa is harder than being cut out for Alaska?

David:

Quote:

Frank Bellar,

You stated that your rifles were seized at the airport because of incorrect documentation and it took a couple of days to sort it out.

Unquote.

Frank Bellar made it pretty clear that this event took place in Australia (where the average IQ of any customs official is reportedly hovering above zero ) because it wasn't "signed properly". - this might mean the signature was illegible.

Alas, you will find similar cases in the 'civilized' world as well, ie. Europe and the USA where bureaucracy is a state of the art and a way of life, common sense and logic is something from the past; if a comma is out of place on the document, the entire process comes to a grinding halt.

When departing for Africa it would be wise to ensure that all the relevant documentation pertaining to your country of residence, any western country that you may need to transit through to reach your final destination (and return) are 101% in order to avoid getting screwed and screw you they will if given half a chance.

Africa, has not reached such advanced levels of administrative perfection and the antiquated methods of reasoning and logic can and are still being successfully employed.

I have never been to Africa and I do not know the two parties concerned here.

My question is ...... If I travel with my rifle from New Zealand to the US via Australia and have the wrong paper work - wrong date for permit and wrong transit country - what would the authorities in the US & in Australia do?

Would I be in deep trouble in the US or will they just make me wait to get the paper work corrected? Will the Aussies just make the corrections or deport me back to NZ?

quote:

Also, one lesson that I've learned is to use one of the available services that take care of preparing your rifle permits

David
I have drawn an opinion from what I have read. That opinion is that you were trying to find any way you could to make this hunt fail.
If you ran out of money and could not pay your trophy fees then just man up and tell the outfitter. You had every means available to you to contact the outfitter and sort this out. On this site alone you had access to several persons who would have sorted it out in March if you were concerned then. Why did you not contact NAPHA to preempt the problem before it occurred rather than after the fact

Anyway, you not going to get sympathy from me, second to that a smear campaign simply shows that you are not a gentleman.
Rogue tactics beget rogue replies.

I ran out of money and therefore I couldn't pay my trophy fees and I was trying to make the hunt fail?
That's one of the best ones I've heard.

Come on African Hunters Quest, you can give a little bit of sympathy can't you? I'm sure you would if I said something nice about you.

quote:

Some who like attention and controversy will run with that message, knowing full well it's not what was meant.

Don't know about who antler's was directing his use of that little gem was aimed at, but originally Todd aimed it at myself for posting this:

quote:

quote:
David, I'm afraid that you are really not cut out for African hunting.


I really like this one!

So, only certain people are cut out to "Hunt" Africa? is that list populated only by folks willing to kiss a PH's arse?

Maybe some type of test should be developed and anyone not meeting the expert criteria (?) of who should or should not attempt to book a hunt in Africa should be tiurned away as some lesser form of human being.

Oh yes, I can see the safari industry promoting something like that.

Todd's first patronizing jab followed:

quote:

CH, I know you want to run with this but I think you realize that it's being taken out of context.

From what I have read from several other peoples responses, I was not taking it out of context, simply because others have alluded to that same sentiment. So the original statement made by Todd came about simply because like, many other individuals who have been on a hunt or hunts in Africa, they seem to consider that regardless how much hunting/life experience a person has, if they ain't hunted Africa they ain't chit.

One point I did miss earlier was that you have hunted in Africa prior to this attempt and were successful or am I wrong on that?

Correct

David, Frank is a very understanding man he even hunted with me for a few weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas: Why do people pay a substantial fee to watch full contact fighters kick the shit out of each other on television when they can read this for free?

Oddly enough, Cal, there is no difference between the structure of a debate and the structure of a fight. This debate would be a good deal more gentlemanly if it followed Queensberry Rules. The decline of civility in public discourse is a direct result of the decline of Boxing as a model for human behavior in adversarial relationships.

quote:

Originally posted by David Duffy:
Although I wanted to take and use my own gun, I was prepared to use a borrowed gun as a back-up plan. I asked for confirmation that there would be a suitable borrowed gun, yet I didn't get any confirmation. Karl at no stage mentioned or offered the option of a borrowed gun and on his website, I couldn't find any mention of using a borrowed gun. Details of who would actually be my PH and where we would have the camp in the Caprivi/Kavango area were vague at best. In smaller camps if there is no PH present until the client arrives (Karl said that he flew a PH up from Windhoek to meet me), it is at least questionable whether there would actually be a spare suitable rifle for my exclusive use. Nevertheless, if there was a suitable rifle for my use, I was prepared to go, so long as this was confirmed.

My hunt was to start the day after my arrival. Perhaps I could have wasted a day or more of a 7 day hunt, waiting for a borrowed rifle to arrive in camp, and have a hunt which doesn't allow me to hunt the three species that was agreed upon, or rush each of the species. Suppose with the borrowed rifle which may have a 4 3/4 pound trigger pull and no scope, I wound the kudu instead of making a clean kill on the 4 or 5 day hunt which was supposed to be 7 days. We can't find the kudu and I'm up for the trophy fee. Maybe we then hunt the hyena. Its dark and a suitable hyena has come to the bait. However, I can't see him clearly because of either the iron sights or the quality of the scope doesn't allow enough light to allow a well placed shot. So I don't take the shot, and we see no more hyenas on the hunt. In view of the reduced time span for the hunt, we make the decision to continue to hunt for hyena and to forego the warthog.

At night, we sit around the campfire, and it is pleasant enjoying the company of other hunters (if they are in camp) and at the same time, I keep telling myself not to be totally "pissed-off" because the PH's negligence with stuffing up the permits has set a chain of events which ultimately cause a stuffed-up hunt. At the end of the hunt, I've payed full price for the reduced hunt, shot and wounded a kudu and paid for it, been unsuccessful not through having a hard hunt and being unsuccessful, but ultimately through original stuff-ups by the PH with the rifle permit. Sure, I should have gone anyway! Ultimately, how much am I supposed to risk and compromise for stuff-ups made by the PH?

David, remember not to leave your house in case you slip on a banana peel and end up on your backside. I honestly think you over-reacted in taking the decision you did. But then I was not in your shoes.

Without going through the entire thread again, and seeing no need whatsoever to name names, it seems that many posters would have cheerfully taken their rifles on to Africa without the proper permits and especially without the correct country of transit.

I am just amazed.

Like I said earlier, I would likely have gone on without my rifles, but would have been bitterly disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by David Duffy:
Cal,

You might be able to help me on this one. Do you think being cut out for Africa is harder than being cut out for Alaska?

David:
Only since you asked.
You are far too sensitive for this forum. Someone said you weren't cut out for Africa and you have brought it up several times. Drop it and move on. As to the issue of permits: I was in Australia two weeks ago for a buffalo hunt and the permit issue was a pain in the ass--both with the government and with QANTAS. I would not have gone with out being 100% sure all was in order. My rifle was a vintage .600 and worth a substantial sum. If the papers were not to my satisfaction, I would have hunted with a camp rifle. But that's just me. Going back to the original topic, let it go and move on. I have a dispute with a PH from Zim. I wrote him a two-page letter and he refused to discuss my issues with him. So, I moved on and didn't open my dirty laundry for all to see. It's a private matter. Since you made the choice to open your issues to the world, you can expect the PH and his supporters to go on the attack (after all, you opened the attack). I suspect the facts lie in between your statements and those of the PH. As to being cut out for Alaska or Africa, that is an question below the dignity of any man. You asked. Please don't PM me or open a debate here with me. I'd prefer to watch the fireworks from a distance.
Cheers, all.
Cal

For those of you who are concerned with what happened concerning me and Mr. Duffy, please be advised of the following:
First, I do not personally acquire the Botswana transient permits for my clients. I live and work in the Caprivi of Namibia. I employ an individual in Botswana who provides that service using scanned information that the client provides. The service costs me a bit more than $100 for each permit if done individually (to include courier service, etc. It is much more efficient and cost effective if a batch of permits are presented at the same time. That was the case with Mr. Duffy’s permit.
When the date was found to be improper by Mr. Duffy, a correction was promptly sent back to Botswana to remedy the same. Simultaneously, Mr. Duffy was informed that the correction was being made and what information was being changed. Unfortunately, Mr. Duffy did not notify me that both the original permit and the proposed corrections listed Zimbabwe as an en route stop from Australia.
When the second permit (albeit with the Zimbabwe stop listed) was completed, I sent, by cell phone, a copy of that permit. My laptop often will not have service in the bush. Perhaps that is why (the cell phone origin) his computer rejected my sending it to him. In any event, it was sent two days before Mr. Duffy decided to not travel. Still, I never heard from him until the day he was supposed to arrive. Why he never called or did not receive the document sent by cell phone to his email address, I don’t know, but it was returned to me as “pending” (a copy of which I have still on my phone showing that the address, etc. was proper and showing the time that it was sent).
As to all the suggestions that we come to some form of agreement, I have verbally offered to Mr. Duffy to come at a later stage, at which point he became abusive. (My wife was witness to this conversation, and commented afterwards that she was impressed on how calm I stayed, I never slammed down the phone as it was suggested, and I just ended the call with “Good luck on that, Mr. Duffy.”
Now I believe I am a reasonable man, (obviously not a sentiment all of you share, but then again, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion), but if someone becomes abusive, all negotiations are off.
In his first email to me after HE decided not to come, (which, interestingly enough, he was easily able to reach me, Mr. Duffy had this to say: “If you ignore this email, as you have ignored other emails, then I will instigate the above measures.” I’m not sure what emails to which he refers, but I don’t have them???
Then later on, after I told him that I will not be blackmailed, he changed his tune and said: “. As previously stated, these letters have and will go out irrespective of whether you re-imburse me the $4795.”
So far, NOT doing Mr. Duffy’s hunt, has cost me:
1x PH for 7 hunting days and 2 travel days US$ 900
Camp staff for the period US$ 496.20
1x trip to Kasane to pick up a phantom client US$ 315
2x airplane tickets for PH to and from Katima Mulilo US$ 475.50
Total: US$ 2186.70
Now if I ignore the rest, like lost hunting days, spoilt food, the second gun permit that I paid for, (his first one was wrong and I paid for it anyways) and that I still need to pay 15% VAT (or US$ 277.20) on the deposit of only US$ 2125 that Mr. Duffy paid me, his decision not to come, has cost me US$ 2463.90, or $ 338.90 more than what he paid me so far. So, no, I am not interested to compensate him for his decision not to board that plane, particularly since Mr. Duffy wouldn’t even discuss some type of proration or even listen to what I had to say without threatening me with ruination.
While Mr. Duffy claims he had trouble contacting me by telephone and email (and cell phone and internet service in Africa is sometimes difficult), it is most interesting that he could reach me to make threats of ruining my reputation, etc. at his convenience.
So, yes, the permits weren’t perfect. Yes, I held on to multiple applications until all could be done at once. Yes, there was a mistake as to the date (and the Zimbabwe transit) on the original permit. When the “date” mistake was pointed out to me, it was corrected the best I could do from Namibia, using a service that has been 100% successful in the past. I did not ask to correct the “Zimbabwe” mistake because Mr. Duffy, himself, apparently, missed it too. All that said, if Mr. Duffy had asked, he would have been told that we had great “loaner” rifles to use, if he felt uncomfortable about the permits, but that I am 100% comfortable that we’d have no problem when he got to Botswana with his own guns, even with the wrong transit country and definitely without paying bribes.
I’m not perfect by any means. I do have a temper if threatened. I attempted to discuss a reasonable way that both of us could come to terms (and not limited to another hunt, btw), but Mr. Duffy was adamant, wouldn’t listen to what I had to say and threatened reprisals unless he had his way. His “absolute” way. I couldn’t even ask him if his cancelled airline ticket was partially refundable, if the “shots” (which he does not need BTW) would last through another safari season, if he had called my cell number or that of my wife or home or even if he wanted to discuss any alternate solution. It was his way or nothing. And finally, in his second email after my attempt at a civil discussion, he wanted me to pay him thousands of dollars and he still would try to ruin me. Still, I shouldn’t have gotten mad.
As an aside, I am a rifle nut. (Most people on this site that knows me, knows this.) I never received a single bit of correspondence or phone call about alternate “camp” rifles. Here’s what I had available for Mr. Duffy: 3 suitable rifles in camp, an 8x68 with a 2.5-10x42 Swarovski scope on, a 9,3x64 with a 1.25-4x24 Swarovski scope on, and a .375 H&H with a 2-7x33 Leopold scope. (That’s besides the heavier guns I had in camp, as remember, he was after plains game only.)

I think these rifles would be more than adequate and Mr. Duffy would have also so thought if he had just called at the contact points I had given him, and, at the same time, I could have informed him of what was going on with the permits in Botswana and how we’d make a plan if there were any bumps in the road, so to speak. The fellow who was to pick Mr. Duffy up in Botswana deals with permits every trip there to pick up a client. He, and I, know the officials and seem them several times each season. If Mr. Duffy had called me, we’d have done just fine.
Again, I have no idea why Mr. Duffy did not call me ON MY NUMBER, when he began to get anxious. We’d have worked it out. Likewise, after he decided not to come to Africa (and use the fine rifles and scopes I had available for him if he’d asked), when I talked to him about his cancellation, it became all my fault for my not being perfect, clairvoyant and ready to pay him for expenses that might well have been recoverable by him (i.e., alternate use of tickets, the expiry of the inoculations, etc.)
Yes, my reputation is somewhat besmirched by Mr. Duffy’s postings, but I’ll continue to offer damn good safaris at reasonable prices to those who want to come to Namibia and hunt with me. And, if you do, if you have concerns, please call or email me at the numbers and addresses I’ll provide you when we discuss your safari. It will save a lot of angst and we’ll have a great time when you get here.

Whatever Time to move on.

Judge, been there done that but I didn't think I told you about it!