i have also gotten pending messages on my phone something you need to understand just because you don't get them in the usa does not mean we don't get them here in africa.phone services are diffrent here than in usa along with a lot of other things

I agree Mr. Duffy might be better off hunting in texas for african game.

Sorry but it has no degenerated into a display of MANGINA...

This is my final comment on this crazy post.
I was just wondering all of you guy's that state you will never book a hunt with Karl just because of negative posts from people they don't even know would YOU:
SHOP AT WALMART THEY GET THOUSANDS OF NEGATIVE REPORTS ANNUALLY
BUY ANY CAR OR TRUCK,EVERY MANUFACUTURE HAS THOUSAND OF COMPLAINTS FROM PEOPLE AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
SHOP AT ANY STORE MOST ALL HAVE SOME NEGATIVE COMMENTS ON THE WEB SOMEWHERE.
PUT MONEY IN THE BANK, READ DAILY NEGATIVE REPORTS ABOUT THE BANKS
PUT MONEY IN WALL STREET MANY NEGATIVE REPORTS.
MAYBE THEY SHOULD CHECK OUT THE NEGATIVE REPORTS FOR JUST ABOUT ANY COMPANY OR AGENCIES THEY DEAL WITH DAILY.
GOSH THEY WOULD NEED TO LIVE ON AN ISLAND.
JUST REMEMBER YOUR COMMENTS ARE LIKE FEATHERS TO THE WIND THEY CANNOT ALL BE RETRACTED NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AFTER THEY ARE SAID.
ALSO COME ON HOW MANY OF YOU EVER TRAVEL TO AFRICA WITH A GUN PERMIT THE PH GAVE YOU.
I have been there 13 times hunted almost all the countries never had a ph send or fill out a gun permit just never.
Every country I took care of it the only country I needed a permit in advance was in UA in Dubai you have to have one in advance and I did it.
Also we re talking about Africa not Europe or Asian countries.
So what is required there is not relevant in this post so get over it.
I guess if you had friends that say negative comments and then blowviate I guess since Karl is my friend I can also.
Karl see you soon
Larry
More than Satisfied Karl Client

Seems like someone should take a midol and nap afterwards.

Larry
I would but found to many negative reports on the internet about Midol.
Larry

This horse should be in the glue factory as it has been beaten to death many, many times. for emphises!

Yep, looks like neither of the two parties here
is beyond reproach, considering the various approaches to reproaches
that are being contrived.
Both parties have been hurt.
They should finish getting satisfaction elsewhere.
They are not going to get it here.
Two wongs don't make a wight.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Two wongs don't make a wight.

You are vewy cowect, RIP.

I've been an Outfitter in Canada for 25 years, and out of 2500 or so clients, I have had 3-4 meatballs like this fellow!
I personally believe that there were personal reasons not shared, as to why he really didn't get on the plane.....
Regardless, the arguments are weak on both sides, and had he shown up, my prediction would be that his hunt would have been great, but because of the attitude built up prior to the hunt, he would have still complained...
I think the Outfitter was kinda screwed either way.....
Hunting can, and always be uncertain at times!
The more expensive Outfitters will typically have more support staff, therefore taking some of that uncertainty away!
We all know this, and to some extent, we as hunters thrive on uncertainty...we would prefer the uncertainty to be whether a buffalo will charge, as opposed to whether our firearms permit is correct, but nonetheless, we all/most thrive on the unknown, and the risk!
-next time try a more positive approach with your Outfitters. Being one for 25 years, and hunting all over the world, I can assure you that it works.
I am leaving in a week for a month in Zimbabwe, and I WILL have an amazing time, with amazing people, in an amazing Country. I will spend 12 days with Terry Anders, and then 16 with the Zambezi Hunters crew with Ian Rutledge. I will make sure we all have a great time!!
No matter what uncertainties may arise....
No matter what might go wrong, our attitudes will be top shelf, and respectful, and I KNOW that they will be the same!
Stay tuned for my positive hunting reports.....

.

RIP, to hijack this Rusty has the barrel et al, has he been intouch with you?

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
RIP, to hijack this Rusty has the barrel et al, has he been intouch with you?

I just called him to ask, he just got your barrel 2 weeks ago, amazing how long McGowen took on that one, and while waiting on that ...

Rusty is finishing up a couple of jobs now.
You are next.

The .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012 Rifle No. 2 is still waiting for a barrel from Pac-Nor and that one is way overdue too ...
BTW,
an unnamed party just backed out on a .416 barrel and a long action TC Icon box fabrication ... Rusty has some spare parts at his shop he is owed money on ...
I do not want to get in on anymore airing of dirty laundry on this thread.
Highjack off.

You know he could have posted a "help me" thread on AR a couple of days earlier. I suspect that would have opened multiple lines of communication with Karl and resolved any concerns.

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I have no dog in this fight so no comment as to this case but to our American friends:

As a foreigner wishing to hunt or even transit US territory you have to have a import permit for your gun/ guns and what is more the application has to be submitted to your BATF&E well in advance. ( well in advance because actually getting a permit in some instances can take time)

The contents of what is asked on the application form itself is interesting as it asks some weird questions pertaining to the origins of the guns you wish to bring in as well as proof of why guns are to be brought in. In the case of an intent to hunt then written proof of invitation by a outfitter etc.

Without that permit in hand you dare not enter the US because you will either not be allowed in or worse they will confiscate your weapons.

From own experience those who are tasked with enforcing this ruling have absolutely no sense of humour at all! Whilst on occasion I was not even asked to show my guns or permit on others the scrutiny was quite thorough.

So my point is if it is so for your own country why then would you expect it to be different when going to another ? or if that ruling applies to another why would you bash someone from being paranoid about not having a permit in hand when it is required ?

I will NOT travel with guns to ANY country if the permits required are not in order.

An outfitter telling me "he will take care of it when I get there" can enjoy his safari without my company.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I have no dog in this fight so no comment as to this case but to our American friends:

As a foreigner wishing to hunt or even transit US territory you have to have a import permit for your gun/ guns and what is more the application has to be submitted to your BATF&E well in advance. ( well in advance because actually getting a permit in some instances can take time)

The contents of what is asked on the application form itself is interesting as it asks some weird questions pertaining to the origins of the guns you wish to bring in as well as proof of why guns are to be brought in. In the case of an intent to hunt then written proof of invitation by a outfitter etc.

Without that permit in hand you dare not enter the US because you will either not be allowed in or worse they will confiscate your weapons.

From own experience those who are tasked with enforcing this ruling have absolutely no sense of humour at all! Whilst on occasion I was not even asked to show my guns or permit on others the scrutiny was quite thorough.

So my point is if it is so for your own country why then would you expect it to be different when going to another ? or if that ruling applies to another why would you bash someone from being paranoid about not having a permit in hand when it is required ?

I will NOT travel with guns to ANY country if the permits required are not in order.

An outfitter telling me "he will take care of it when I get there" can enjoy his safari without my company.

I agree that the brown-nosers who say Karl walks on water are delusional.

I say Karl drowned on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I have no dog in this fight so no comment as to this case but to our American friends:

As a foreigner wishing to hunt or even transit US territory you have to have a import permit for your gun/ guns and what is more the application has to be submitted to your BATF&E well in advance. ( well in advance because actually getting a permit in some instances can take time)

The contents of what is asked on the application form itself is interesting as it asks some weird questions pertaining to the origins of the guns you wish to bring in as well as proof of why guns are to be brought in. In the case of an intent to hunt then written proof of invitation by a outfitter etc.

Without that permit in hand you dare not enter the US because you will either not be allowed in or worse they will confiscate your weapons.

From own experience those who are tasked with enforcing this ruling have absolutely no sense of humour at all! Whilst on occasion I was not even asked to show my guns or permit on others the scrutiny was quite thorough.

So my point is if it is so for your own country why then would you expect it to be different when going to another ? or if that ruling applies to another why would you bash someone from being paranoid about not having a permit in hand when it is required ?

I will NOT travel with guns to ANY country if the permits required are not in order.

An outfitter telling me "he will take care of it when I get there" can enjoy his safari without my company.

I fully agree. This thread has caused me to think more about what a really difficult job it is to be an outfitter and PH at the same time. You are running a small business. The ideal person is a good hunter, great companion in camp, and a competent business person and communicator. I'm sure there are many who can fill the bill on hunting and companionship. But if they don't also attend competently to the business aspects of a safari and provide good communication in advance of the hunt, they're not the ones I would want.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
... brown-nosers ...

Hey RIP how are those rifles going?

Maybe it's worthwhile to think in terms of appropriate expectations for people to whom you're paying money for services.

My expecations for the PH would be around the right hunting area for the animals I want, the logistics of the hunt and the camp, etc.

I wouldn't ask him to arrange my gun permits any more than I would ask him to arrange my int'l flight tickets.

I also wouldn't ask my travel agent to be responsible for the post-hunt dip & pack.

If nothing else, this thread serves to reinforce this notion in my head for next time I hunt away from home. I'll expect certain things from certain folks, based on what's appropriate for their role in the fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I have no dog in this fight so no comment as to this case but to our American friends:

As a foreigner wishing to hunt or even transit US territory you have to have a import permit for your gun/ guns and what is more the application has to be submitted to your BATF&E well in advance. ( well in advance because actually getting a permit in some instances can take time)

The contents of what is asked on the application form itself is interesting as it asks some weird questions pertaining to the origins of the guns you wish to bring in as well as proof of why guns are to be brought in. In the case of an intent to hunt then written proof of invitation by a outfitter etc.

Without that permit in hand you dare not enter the US because you will either not be allowed in or worse they will confiscate your weapons.

From own experience those who are tasked with enforcing this ruling have absolutely no sense of humour at all! Whilst on occasion I was not even asked to show my guns or permit on others the scrutiny was quite thorough.

So my point is if it is so for your own country why then would you expect it to be different when going to another ? or if that ruling applies to another why would you bash someone from being paranoid about not having a permit in hand when it is required ?

I will NOT travel with guns to ANY country if the permits required are not in order.

An outfitter telling me "he will take care of it when I get there" can enjoy his safari without my company.

My sentiments exactly.

On that point: One more US Gun permit that most hunters are ignorant of.

The response I got from the US State Department DDTC Response Team. (Directorate of Defense Trade Controls).

"Previously, ATF issued temporary import permits for this purpose, but ceased to do so after 9/11, and required DDTC to issue DSP-61 temporary import licenses for these transits. Since the DSP-61 can only be applied for by a US person registered with DDTC, you will have to find a registered exporter who can handle this for you. Some are listed on the web. You might start with the Gunbroker.com
The only other alternative is to find a routing to S. Africa which by-passes the US."

I was informed that it was a $250 USD application fee to the State Department, no matter whether you were actually conducting defense trade or just trying to fly through the country on your way to Africa, along with a $250.00 processing fee for the registered export company who you are required to use.

The folks at customs apparently don't appear to apply this law/policy currently.

However, which of your firearms would you like to have confiscated because they chose to have enforcement day upon your arrival?

I took the DDTC's advice. I fly through Amsterdam and Germany where they provide free permits.

quote:

Originally posted by Brother Dave:
Maybe it's worthwhile to think in terms of appropriate expectations for people to whom you're paying money for services.

My expecations for the PH would be around the right hunting area for the animals I want, the logistics of the hunt and the camp, etc.

I wouldn't ask him to arrange my gun permits any more than I would ask him to arrange my int'l flight tickets.

I also wouldn't ask my travel agent to be responsible for the post-hunt dip & pack.

If nothing else, this thread serves to reinforce this notion in my head for next time I hunt away from home. I'll expect certain things from certain folks, based on what's appropriate for their role in the fun.

Brother Dave,

It IS the responssibility of whoever is going to conduct your safari to obtain the import permit, as well as any relevant hunting licenses.

It really is not that difficult to do.

On all my hunts, we agree on a date of arrival, and a date of departure, so the oufitter can arrange the hunting licenses.

We provide him with the serial numbers and caliber of the rifles, and how many rounds of ammo we are bringing.

All the customs do when we arrive is check the serial numbers of the rifles, and ask how many rounds of ammo we are bringing. It does not take more than 2-3 minutes to get this done when everything is order.

I think I can see where Karl went wrong on this one.

He obviously wanted to save money, and sends several hunters' requests at the same time.

This might have been the reason a screw up occurred.

The old phrase "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
... brown-nosers ...

Hey RIP how are those rifles going?

Imitation of the most perfect general purpose hunting cartridge in the world
is the sincerest form of flattery, true.

That has absolutely no similarity to the brown spots on Karl's dirty laundry
being aired here.

Nice try NostrilX.
Good of you to come up for air.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Brother Dave,

It IS the responssibility of whoever is going to conduct your safari to obtain the import permit, as well as any relevant hunting licenses.

Oh!

Thanks Saeed. I thought I recalled paying someone else to do it.

It IS the responsibility of whoever is going to conduct your safari to obtain the import permit, as well as any relevant hunting licenses.

The above is absolutely correct and any eventual cock-up with the permits, firearm and/or hunting permits that may incur a 'penalty' will be entirely on the outfitter's shoulders.

It really is not that difficult to do.

Dead simple if the issuing officer pays attention to the information he/she has been given to enter on the permit - this appears to be quite difficult to execute.

We agree on a date of arrival, and a date of departure, so the outfitter can arrange the hunting licenses.

We provide him with the serial numbers and caliber of the rifles, and how many rounds of ammo we are bringing.

All the customs do when we arrive is check the serial numbers of the rifles, and ask how many rounds of ammo we are bringing. It does not take more than 2-3 minutes to get this done when everything is order.


N.B.
1. The above documentation is in the hands of the outfitter or his designated 'meet and greet' person at the airport.
2. Any discrepancy that may appear on the permit is 'sorted' out on the spot without much ado (taken care of by the outfitter).
3. The same applies for the exit of the firearms and whatever ammunition left over is being exported.
4. The outfitter quite often may have too much on his hands and places full reliance on his subordinates who regrettably are not 100% reliable and these discrepancies go unnoticed and in which case point 2 comes into play.

quote:

Originally posted by David Duffy:
Why don't you demonstrate that you can count past three and address the question? I know this turning out to be a popularity contest, but what are you doing on this thread anyway?

watching you make a fool of yourself?? it's entertainment on a night when nothing good is on TV.

12,394 views on this thread! Are we all bored or what!!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I have no dog in this fight so no comment as to this case but to our American friends:

As a foreigner wishing to hunt or even transit US territory you have to have a import permit for your gun/ guns and what is more the application has to be submitted to your BATF&E well in advance. ( well in advance because actually getting a permit in some instances can take time)

The contents of what is asked on the application form itself is interesting as it asks some weird questions pertaining to the origins of the guns you wish to bring in as well as proof of why guns are to be brought in. In the case of an intent to hunt then written proof of invitation by a outfitter etc.

Without that permit in hand you dare not enter the US because you will either not be allowed in or worse they will confiscate your weapons.

From own experience those who are tasked with enforcing this ruling have absolutely no sense of humour at all! Whilst on occasion I was not even asked to show my guns or permit on others the scrutiny was quite thorough.

So my point is if it is so for your own country why then would you expect it to be different when going to another ? or if that ruling applies to another why would you bash someone from being paranoid about not having a permit in hand when it is required ?

BECAUSE THE US IS A LEFT LEANING FIRST WORLD COUNTRY AND ALL OF SOUTHERN AFRICA ARE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES WHERE BRIBES/ MAKING A PLAN ARE THE ACCEPTED WAY OF GETTING THINGS DONE?? after 10 safaris i have never had a single one where i wasn't asked to grease someones palm for something- it's the cost of traveling there and that's the bottom line.

I've had someone asking me to clarify my answer regarding the gun permit.

In all my hunts, I have never seen my gun permits except at the airport of entry when the safari company representative showes it to the customs as we arrive.

In this case, it seems the hunter is flying through other countries, which require him to have a copy of it when he transits.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.... similarity to the brown spots ....

What were some of the many comments you made on those threads again? I forget.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I've had someone asking me to clarify my answer regarding the gun permit.

In all my hunts, I have never seen my gun permits except at the airport of entry when the safari company representative showes it to the customs as we arrive.

In this case, it seems the hunter is flying through other countries, which require him to have a copy of it when he transits.

Saeed, I must differ with you on this one. At least in regards to RSA specifically. I bring up RSA for a couple of reasons. 1) Most destinations in Southern Africa require transit through JoBerg (not all but most) and 2) the OP was concerned with an in transit RSA permit so I think it applies to this discussion. To transit RSA enroute to another African hunting destination, you simply get your intransit or hunting permit upon arrival at the JoBerg airport. There is no need for a pre-issued in transit permit for RSA. In fact, I'm not sure one even exists as the instructions for obtaining a firearms permit in South Africa state that the application SHOULD NOT be signed until standing in person, in front of the issuing authority. That being the case, how can a permit be pre issued?

David's claim in the OP that an accepting authority permit (Botswana) was necessary to transit RSA is incorrect. In RSA, one simply needs 1) ID (passport), 2) Letter of Invitation, 3) Proof of ownership, 4) Export approval (for USA the 4457 covers both 3 and 4), and 5) a return airline ticket showing intent to leave RSA.

I get a chuckle out of the guys here who insinuate that obtaining a RSA or Zim permit at the time of arrival is improper and "don't try that in the UK". Well of course the UK is different but that doesn't have any bearing on Southern Africa in the least bit. It's apples to oranges. Same with New Zealand and Australia. We've all heard the horror stories about piles of paperwork and pre-approval months in advance for bringing guns into Oz. But NZ, which is just a hop, skip, and jump away simply says to show up, fill out one short form, pay $25NZ and off you go. I know because I just did it last month.

It's crazy how this little thread has taken off. You have a well known PH who screwed the pooch a bit by not taking care of the paperwork properly on one hand and a prima donna client on the other who decided to throw a temper tantrum and only cheated himself out of the experience of Safari. It seems as though just a little effort on either one's part would have settled this before it even became an issue. At this point, it's just a bunch of finger pointing. Both are at fault but neither are man enough to admit blame and move on. Because of that, I don't value Karl's or David's opinion much.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.... similarity to the brown spots ....

What were some of the many comments you made on those threads again? I forget.

BrownNostrilX,

That's all you got?

Approaching 13,000 views.
Looks like David will get some satisfaction in that, if nothing else.
And it is also evident that David put in more effort in unscrewing Karl's pooch than Karl did.
Ugly thought that is.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.... similarity to the brown spots ....

GIGO principle. Garbage in Garbage Out ...

Why would anyone respond with anything intelligent.

You couldn't smell shit for ... well you probably can. That's why it was the first inane insult you thought of. Quite ironic. Not much else from any of your posts on this thread.



The no-clowns avatar would be perfect for you, just needs a brown smudge not a red nose.

Stumpfe Communication, "Stump Training":


Satisfied Client:




BrownNostrilX,
Sorry I could not find a No-Bozo avatar with a brown nose. Good idea.
I'll look around.
Past 13,000 views now.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.... similarity to the brown spots ....

GIGO principle. Garbage in Garbage Out ...

Why would anyone respond with anything intelligent.

You couldn't smell shit for ... well you probably can. That's why it was the first inane insult you thought of. Quite ironic. Not much else from any of your posts on this thread.



The no-clowns avatar would be perfect for you, just needs a brown smudge not a red nose.

either give it a rest RIP or grow up. pull down your skirt,your IQ is showing.even when i took a rifle on my first 5 safaris and transited through through Joburg, i never had an rifle import permit in hand. it was always waiting for me on arrival at my final destination along with the PH.

jdollar, you never entered RSA i e remained in the International Terminal, eh.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
jdollar, you never entered RSA i e remained in the International Terminal, eh.

I have stayed over night on several occasions in Joberg on my way to Zimbabwe over the past ten years. I have always had the paper work sent to me, I fill it out except for the signature and hand it to the police inspector on arrival. Never had a problem with doing it that way. Same with Zimbabwe.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
jdollar, you never entered RSA i e remained in the International Terminal, eh.

I have stayed over night on several occasions in Joberg on my way to Zimbabwe over the past ten years. I have always had the paper work sent to me, I fill it out except for the signature and hand it to the police inspector on arrival. Never had a problem with doing it that way. Same with Zimbabwe.

465H&H

Exactly. Except that you don't have to have the paperwork sent to you. You just print it off from their website here:

http://www.saps.gov.za/crime_p...port_application.pdf

And the instructions here:

http://www.saps.gov.za/crime_p.../import_instruct.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
jdollar, you never entered RSA i e rema
ined in the International Terminal, eh.

not so. 3 of the first 5 trips i overnighted in Joburg and had the permit issued on arrival at the airport. i downloaded the permit application online, filled it out( but didn't sign it) in advance, gave it to the officer to complete. signed, stamped and on my way I'm about 20 minutes. it really isn't rocket science. i suppose if you want to spend $100 or more having it done for you in advance, it's OK. i just don't see the need.

In SA it is not the outfitter's responsibility to obtain a firearms import permit for the client. Without POA he can't do it anyway. It is the client's responsibility. The outfitter may assist the client or the client can use riflepermits.com or some other facilitator but the client must obtain it. You, the client, can download the SAPS 520 form online if the outfitter doesn't provide you a copy and you, the client, must obtain the US Customs form 4457. All the outfitter can do is provide the letter of invitation. Additionally, once obtained, the temporary import permit must be kept by the client, on his person, at all times while in the field. If you don't won't to pay a facilitator such as riflepermits.com then you will have to apply in person at the police station when you and your rifle arrive in J'burg. It's not that big of a deal but does take a little time. The last time I traveled to Zimbabwe I got the import permit as I was clearing customs. It was easy and quick but that was around 7 or 8 years ago so I don't know what is required there now.

Supporting documents to accompany the application:

With regard to in-transit and export permits an import permit from the recipient country. (If not supplied by country- writes confirmation is required)

http://www.saps.gov.za/crime_p...arms/import_info.htm

Supporting documents to accompany the application:
The following supplementary documentation must accompany the application :
A certified copy of Passport documents.
A certified copy of a licence, permit, authorization or any other documentary proof confirming the lawful possession of the firearm.
A written mandate (appointment letter) as proof if a person was nominated to apply on behalf of the applicant. (Mandate received must be an original document signed by the importer where after the appointed can apply on behalf of the importer).
A written authorization which permits export from country of origin. (If not supplied by country of origin - written confirmation is required).
If applying at the port of entry - airline ticket to be produced.
With regard to in-transit and export permits an import permit from the recipient country. (If not supplied by country- writes confirmation is required)
Documentary proof with regard to the purpose of the visit issued by any one of the following persons or institutions, in South Africa confirming that, to the best of their knowledge and belief, the applicant will be using the firearm for the purpose set out in the application:
A professional hunter, or the hunting outfitter licensed to conduct business in hunting, who will provide hunting to the foreign visitor.
The accredited hunting association or sport-shooting organisation that is hosting the event or sport-shooting competition that the applicant will participate in,
An person or organisation hosting a public event or historical re-enactment or display that requires the foreign visitor’s participation and use of the specific firearm.