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The only person really qualified to confirm the sex of that elephant is the PH and the declaration of the killed animal on the permit: normally shows time, sex and GPS coordinates or defined location- AG has already confirmed that he was dragged off in a hurry in pursuit of the long departed buffalo and once they got back to the carcass there was no evidence left (hmmmmm.....however). | |||
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It should be a simple matter of record shouldn't it? But if the PH masterminding this fiasco is Tim Lamprecht, can you believe anything he says, or any of his documentation? Ditto his ex-employer, Wayne Dietrechsen. ZPHA, where are you? Sorry, Richard. I'd be losing my mind too, out of control, if this happened to me. Really a bad situation for you, and any parties involved, other than you, deserve any trouble that can be sent their way. Africa may be called "The Dark Continent." In this case it may be due to happenings that are like a black hole that never quits sucking. Not dark comedy or black humor, just horrible. | |||
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This gets to my point, is no one responsible for confirming the sex of the animal killed? Would it be possible for a Zim PH, game scout, trackers, skinners, etc. to kill an elephant and not eventually KNOW what sex it is? Zim PH's? Anybody? Or are we sticking with the "it's such a big animal, I couldn't see.", or "I never really thought to look" | |||
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Brad, Unless I'm mistaken the "legal" answer to your question is in your own quoted post above. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I am actually not looking for a "legal answer", I was hoping that an experienced PH would come on and say whether they could see any way in which an elephant could be shot, killed, photographed, skinned, and butchered without the involved parties knowing what its sex was. | |||
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The Answer to that is NO. It is very obvious. | |||
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Thank You Buzz, I thought so too. However, I have never hunted or killed an elephant, and try not to be one of the local yahoos (sometimes to no avail)  | |||
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All Gone, Adam Clemens With the above stated, what was the sex of the elephant you shot? | |||
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505, I think you missed this ealier in the thread and in my hunting report. The ele died just the way it was in the pics, it was not moved. I did not look and if Tim knew he did not say and i didn't ask. We dropped the skinners and scouts off in the morning to make a road to the ele. They skinned and deboned the entire ele before we got back to them at around 4pm. They did not move it much to do all this because it was still in this position when we returned. I am sure that they and Tim knew but again i did not ask. Yes i just assumed it was a bull. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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I did a elephant hunt 4 months in Zimbabwe, and was very happy with my hunt. Money couldnt have bought me a better PH I was hunting with. Also had a very good booking agent, as they got an update everyday on my hunt, an dto make sure everthing was OK. I hunted with Chifuti Safaris, and was booked thru Safari Classics. AG if you ever go back, I would recommend you go thru Safari Classics and hunt with Chifuti. White North | |||
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I'm sorry, can't found any pics, where I can found them? D.V.M. | |||
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+ 1 on that! Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Not sure I would wish that on Andrew and Paul. Mike | |||
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+2 and +3 on Chifuti/Safari Classics | |||
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Brad, I've also never killed an elephant. Buzz said in reply to this question that the answer is NO. Sex is obvious. I agree, but has anyone here ever seen the size and location of a B-I-G elephant bull's ball-bag? With two exceptions that I know of [there may be more?], if you shoot a mature male land mammal and you turn it on it's side, or on it's back you can see a "ball bag" or more scientifically correct a scrotum somewhere between the anus and belly. An elephant bull aint got one! Sure, a bull elephant has testicles or balls, but they are not in a bag hanging between his hind legs! FYI, they are located internally near the kidneys! But if you shoot any mature land mamal and lift it's tail [if it has one] and you see an anus or generally know as an asshole, without another orifice directly below it, then it was a male! Need I say anything about the visibility of a penis or penis sheath of a male land mamal, or in this case an elephant, when being butchered - even a very young calf? As Buzz said, it's obvious! The whole of the skinning team knows what sex that calf was! Just ask, one or all of them! In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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Perhaps you should ask Wayne or Adam, are you not concerned? | |||
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Wayne being the outfitter is solely responsible for all actions, inclusive of those by his employees, related to his activity, and should reveal the sex of the elephant as was ultimately registered on the permit. Should it be listed as male then he's quite likely screwed the pooch and himself. | |||
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Adam Clements, what is the difference in trophy fee's between a bull elephant and a cow elephant? | |||
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Folks Just to clarify- during the skinning process there is NO doubt on the sex- however I think I need to reiterate an importanat point I made on my first post. " from the pictures ( now removed) it sure looks like a cow however from Pics alone you cannot be 100%." I do hope that they clear it as a immature bull as it will be alot less problems for all involved. Cheers Buzz | |||
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Hi Brad, I recently took my first as a guide and I will admit having never hunted or really studied the hunting of them much. To me and my equally unlearned client the bull was flipping obvious. Cows are noisy little grey flappy things followed by even smaller little grey flappy things. Chaps if you do not mix it with your quarry or indeed have time to study your trophy to a certain degree then you are missing out on hunting. Shit and I thought it was all about dust, cordite, tusks and the rumble of grim beasts. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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 Perhaps you missed the pictures, unfortunately the problem hear is, he shot one of the "even smaller little grey flappy things". | |||
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Andrew You and I are of the same mind. I always get in trouble for saying it here on AR, but I really think a hunter misses out on the most important part of the hunt when they take an elephant, lion or leopard right at the start of their safari without actually getting a chance to hunt for it. Even if AG's elephant had been a good one, I really don't see how it could hold much value to the hunter as just popped it after coming across it in the bush without yet having actually hunted for elephant. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Well put.  ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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We have always enjoyed being part of the skinning and butchering party whenever we have shot an elephant. It is all part of the hunt. | |||
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I can answer that one. I shot my tuskless cow on my first morning. That didn't stop Buzz from taking me close to every elephant we came across for the rest of my hunt. We got chased a few times, our butts puckered no less, maybe more with no tag available and mad cow disease rampant among the family herds.... Quite unforgettable! That was my best safari ever, I shot elephant, hippo and leopard with some assorted small game plus time for some tiger fishing. There was no shortage of excitement and lots of great memories to boot! I would not change a thing about that trip. ~Ann   | |||
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I'm not sure what you meant, but sometimes when elephant hunting, I find the substance highlighted above in my britches.  JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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What a wonderfully quoteable line that is...even more so after reading JudgeG's take on it! | |||
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Great answer Ann. That is definitely one of the benefits of going with a driven PH like Buzz. Most PH would just figure the "elephant portion" of the hunt was over and would avoid them, thereby stealing all those great experiences. I would think the pucker factor would be quite high, messing with cows with no tag in hand...  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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The latest Issue of Magnum has a great article about hunters like All Gone. At least in this article the PH and Outfitter seem to be upstanding people though. Well worth the read, I will try scan it in for those who dont have it. If anyone else has faster access to a scanner and a magnum, it is on page 42. Also a great article by Ganyana with a great pic of him standing in front of a charging bull. Ganyana, was that Elephant part of the cull opperation? Thanks for a good article, HQ | |||
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Copyright may be a legal issue? In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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Good point Andrew I will ask Gregor what his stance is. HQ | |||
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No word from Adam or Richard for a while now... Has this issue been resolved?? | |||
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Leopardtrack, Nothing more has been has been done to resolve the situation. Wayne e-mailed me and assurred me the tusks are from a male. He also said he would send me the paperwork to prove it. I found out from the taxidermy co. that its perfectly legal for them to buy my ele skin. Sounds like our side has changed up some of the paper work needed so 2011 leopard imports have been halted until the other side can figure out out what is required to make things right. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Adam C has an interesting reply to a hunt report by Bill73 NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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I am probably going to get dog piled by saying this, but oh well... Adam's comment was in poor taste with respect to belittling someone's animals. But, put yourself in his place and you might have some idea why he responded that way. Here is one thing I like about Adam and Mark, esp Mark. Mark takes time to answer our questions. Other booking agents do too. Often the questions are about guns, protocol, etc. - in short, answering them ain't gonna sell any hunts. Mark will often answer a question when he darn well knows the guy asking the question is going to book directly or through someone else. Mark is "one of us." Some of you may recall a post I made about "discount" vs "cancellation" hunts. The booking agent came on here and belittled me for complaining about a spectacular hunt (it was). That wasn't the point, but I did get several PMs telling me the behavior of that agent was inappropriate. I guess stating so in public would result in being "blacklisted." Oh well; when I wrote my stories the name of that booking agent was left out. To be fair, no else has ever had anything bad to say about the guy. And my issue wasn't the hunt but with semantics. I think Adam clearly blew this one with AG. Hopefully this causes him to be introspective about how he runs his business and he changes for the benefit of all of us. For all the bad stuff, he ain't no Jeff Blair. Okay, let me have it. | |||
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Since I really know little about what has and is going on between Adam and AG, I am not going to comment about that now. But I really find Adam's comment in that post both to be in very bad taste and very childish. Nothing excuses the post he made there. | |||
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Maybe I should know better than to shine a light on this thread once more,but having read every word (belatedly) over the last week..... AG was very unfortunate to be exposed to T.M. the PH,who should now be in the slammer doing hard labour. (without afternoon naps). W.D.the Outfitter, should be ashamed of himself for setting the wheels in motion, with who knows,what consequences eventually to AG. Adam, the Agent, who comes across as a guy trying his best to sort things out,but you have to ask him,why he would trust an outfitter(who has a suspect past and once again proved it) to look out for a virgin African Hunter. What a mess. This thread started on Nov.5th or what we call 'Fireworks Night' here in the U.K. It certainly has lived up to that. AG you did not have to, guild the lily, with the talk of donation to our heroes. Most of the guys here were on your side in order to see fair play prevail. If any lessons can be learned from this,I hope you have learned the most. And maybe, using your knowledge, go back to Africa for a successful trip/hunt. You got some good advice over the past month here on AR I only hope you take it. And no,before you ask, I have not been to Africa. Good luck.jc | |||
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jc, Yes your probably right about the charity. After giving it some thought i could see where it could sound like that but i also believe that most minds where already made up. I wasen't trying to sway anyone. I meant what i said and still do. The way i see it that money is probably gone. If i was to get any back it would be a miracle so why not spread it around. I am sorry i said it but i'm not sorry for doing it. I give, and for that i apoligize to no one. Please don't take anything above the wrong way. Everyone has their own way, that happens to be my way. Just sayin. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Is this the end of your saga? Any other coorespondance from Adam? | |||
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